Are Golfers Finally Starting to Balk At Driver Prices?

[Tbonia]

I said in an earlier reply to this topic that I was NEVER one to buy a new driver. Well………..I just left my local golf shop to check out a Tsi3 driver like my son just bought , and hit it a few times. As well as the new Ping, the new Stealth, and then Finally the new Paradym driver. And OMG , let me tell you what. That club is unreal!!!

I was hitting the other 3 pretty straight and all around 200-215 yds. Then I started hitting the Paradym ..This will without a doubt be THE FIRST new driver I have ever bought. And I’m 62 years old and have been playing since I was 13. 
I am sold!! Trading in a few old clubs. And I will own this club, and getting fitted for it as well !! 

[Bang60]

45 minutes ago, Tbonia said:

I said in an earlier reply to this topic that I was NEVER one to buy a new driver. Well………..I just left my local golf shop to check out a Tsi3 driver like my son just bought , and hit it a few times. As well as the new Ping, the new Stealth, and then Finally the new Paradym driver. And OMG , let me tell you what. That club is unreal!!!

I was hitting the other 3 pretty straight and all around 200-215 yds. Then I started hitting the Paradym ..This will without a doubt be THE FIRST new driver I have ever bought. And I’m 62 years old and have been playing since I was 13. 
I am sold!! Trading in a few old clubs. And I will own this club, and getting fitted for it as well !! 

I’ve bought a new superseded callaway in Japan for $100 but never a brand new model, I need to win the lottery first  

[garyt1957]

On 2/20/2023 at 12:38 PM, chisag said:

 

... I booked a fitting for my 80yr old playing pard but couldn't be there with him. He gained 20 yds with the Paradym and 40gm Ascent senior shaft. He is playing an older Ping with an R flex shaft he was fit into some 5 years ago but 75 to 80 takes a toll. He is caught between wanting 20 more yards and not wanting to pay $600. I think we could take some time and demo some older models and find him close to 20yds with the right shaft and more spin as I don't think he will pay the $600 and don't blame him.  

I'd pay $600 for 20 guaranteed yards and I'm cheap. But that's too good to pass up. Your friend however was just badly fit before so you should easily be able to find him those 15-20 yards for $200. Most anyone getting another 20 yards are just because they were horribly fit before.

[garyt1957]

On 2/19/2023 at 4:48 PM, Golfspy_CG2 said:

As some know. I work at a course and do a lot of the fitting and all the equipment sales there. 
 

This year (going back to the fall) has been a big driver release year. Titliest having launched the TSR line and PING relaxing the G430 after 2 years and the buzz about the Paradym.   Add on Stealth2, Aerojet, Mizuno. Srixon all having new models. 
 

But we have seen a noticeable decline in driver sales and interest so far.  I know it’s early in the season.  But it’s a lot less than last year.   There is some talk about the Paradym and people are asking about the G430.  But no real buying internet. 
 

So this has be thinking that maybe OEM have finally reached a price threshold that consumers are saying, No more! . Many of the drivers hitting $600 and even $750 plus for a premium shaft.  
 

I know there are many retail guys here and those of us ho’s who usually buy w due year, what do you all say?

I've been fooling with drivers a lot so far this year and my Wishon 919 THI from what, maybe 2010 is within 5 yards and maybe even more accurate than modern drivers I've tried. Maybe people are realizing that they're all really good now and the gains from year to year just aren't worth the money, even if it was only $400

[chisag]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:38 AM, chisag said:

... I booked a fitting for my 80yr old playing pard but couldn't be there with him. He gained 20 yds with the Paradym and 40gm Ascent senior shaft. He is playing an older Ping with an R flex shaft he was fit into some 5 years ago but 75 to 80 takes a toll. He is caught between wanting 20 more yards and not wanting to pay $600. I think we could take some time and demo some older models and find him close to 20yds with the right shaft and more spin as I don't think he will pay the $600 and don't blame him.  

 

1 minute ago, garyt1957 said:

I'd pay $600 for 20 guaranteed yards and I'm cheap. But that's too good to pass up. Your friend however was just badly fit before so you should easily be able to find him those 15-20 yards for $200. Most anyone getting another 20 yards are just because they were horribly fit before.

UPDATE: I am with you and would pay $600 for 20 more yards too. I found a new senior flex Aldila NVS 45 shaft for $40 and installed an adaptor on it for his Ping G driver. He has gained 15 yds but even more importantly he is hitting it straighter. He was fit into his current driver but that was 5 years ago when he was 75 so probably not horribly fit, but they might have found a better shaft than the stock Ping he was fitted into. To be fair, he says he has lost some strength and speed in the last 5 years. For $40 and a friend to do the re-shafting for free   he is happy he saved $560.

[richk9holes]

8 minutes ago, garyt1957 said:

I've been fooling with drivers a lot so far this year and my Wishon 919 THI from what, maybe 2010 is within 5 yards and maybe even more accurate than modern drivers I've tried. Maybe people are realizing that they're all really good now and the gains from year to year just aren't worth the money, even if it was only $400

Similarly I put my dad's 10 yr old G25 in play recently and was hitting it at least as good as my TS2 with 2 seasons use.

[garyt1957]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:36 AM, burnsie said:

 

If I’m not mistaken, these clubs are the 2021  0211 drivers. If you go on their website now you’ll find they’re all sold out!  A great driver at a great price! What a novel idea!!

They also have great deals on fittings. I paid $25 for a driver fitting. You can't rent time on a LM for that. Hit my own drivers quite a bit just to see the numbers and what I needed to improve. The PXG wasn't  any better than what I had (Wishon 919 and Cobra  Extreme) but when they allow you to use the cost of the fitting towards the club it was a no brainer to get the PXG for $95 more.  Sold my Cobra for $170 and got a new driver and made $50

[garyt1957]

5 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

UPDATE: I am with you and would pay $600 for 20 more yards too. I found a new senior flex Aldila NVS 45 shaft for $40 and installed an adaptor on it for his Ping G driver. He has gained 15 yds but even more importantly he is hitting it straighter. He was fit into his current driver but that was 5 years ago when he was 75 so probably not horribly fit, but they might have found a better shaft than the stock Ping he was fitted into. To be fair, he says he has lost some strength and speed in the last 5 years. For $40 and a friend to do the re-shafting for free   he is happy he saved $560.

Awesome. And yes by bad fitting I don't necessarily mean he was fit badly at the time, we just age out of that fitting as we get older. I'm all into A flex shafts now but was fit for a stiff only 3-4 years ago.

[Javs]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

UPDATE: I am with you and would pay $600 for 20 more yards too. I found a new senior flex Aldila NVS 45 shaft for $40 and installed an adaptor on it for his Ping G driver. He has gained 15 yds but even more importantly he is hitting it straighter. He was fit into his current driver but that was 5 years ago when he was 75 so probably not horribly fit, but they might have found a better shaft than the stock Ping he was fitted into. To be fair, he says he has lost some strength and speed in the last 5 years. For $40 and a friend to do the re-shafting for free   he is happy he saved $560.

That is awesome!

[JJames]

Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter.

[Javs]

4 minutes ago, JJames said:

Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter.

Agree, except when you are retired and a gear nut. Shinny and new becomes the new season obsession. Till it ends up in the closet…..However, still fun!

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 minutes ago, JJames said:

Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter.

Peaked on center strikes sure, but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. Same shaft, same lofts and settings and the LST has been miles better. Distance, dispersion and just overall consistency. Sure out the middle both are very similar, but I can without question say the LST for me is a longer driver (by longer I mean 10 or so yards on average). 

The other part I would add is that companies are continually finding new and innovative ways to push driver tech further. The gains may not be huge, but they are still gains. Just look at Stealth vs Stealth 2. Forgiveness on those from one year over the other is night and day. 

[JJames]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Peaked on center strikes sure, but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. Same shaft, same lofts and settings and the LST has been miles better. Distance, dispersion and just overall consistency. Sure out the middle both are very similar, but I can without question say the LST for me is a longer driver (by longer I mean 10 or so yards on average). 

The other part I would add is that companies are continually finding new and innovative ways to push driver tech further. The gains may not be huge, but they are still gains. Just look at Stealth vs Stealth 2. Forgiveness on those from one year over the other is night and day. 

I did similar tests myself, my Ping G425Max is so straight compared to anything else, almost impossible to miss. Same swing will send the ball super straight while with my SIM2 it will be an enormous slice. It's weird when you think about it.

[Javs]

12 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Peaked on center strikes sure, but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. Same shaft, same lofts and settings and the LST has been miles better. Distance, dispersion and just overall consistency. Sure out the middle both are very similar, but I can without question say the LST for me is a longer driver (by longer I mean 10 or so yards on average). 

The other part I would add is that companies are continually finding new and innovative ways to push driver tech further. The gains may not be huge, but they are still gains. Just look at Stealth vs Stealth 2. Forgiveness on those from one year over the other is night and day. 

I agree the new technology is night and day on slight or large mishits. That is the added relief most of us need! I just splurged for the new Callaway Paradym TD in 8 degree with Hzrd Smoke black RDX 60 gram shaft in stiff. Can’t wait ti it arrives. The Paradym iron performance drive me to try the driver as well. If I get 10 yards over my PXG and less spin I’ll be a happy camper!

[JJames]

Where I live the Callaway Paradym driver "sells" for $880... These prices are insane.

[chisag]

17 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Peaked on center strikes sure, but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. Same shaft, same lofts and settings and the LST has been miles better. Distance, dispersion and just overall consistency. Sure out the middle both are very similar, but I can without question say the LST for me is a longer driver (by longer I mean 10 or so yards on average). 

The other part I would add is that companies are continually finding new and innovative ways to push driver tech further. The gains may not be huge, but they are still gains. Just look at Stealth vs Stealth 2. Forgiveness on those from one year over the other is night and day. 

 

... Good stuff! I am not taking a shot at JJames as I am sure his statements are an accurate reflection of his experience, but I always really dislike broad proclamations like "Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter." Of course there is data. It is called a Launch Monitor used during your Fitting. For every golfer that finds zero difference between an older driver and a newer driver, there is another finding something like APH "but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. "

... Using myself as an example:

1. Fitted for a Sim2 when playing a Sim I did not find much difference at all. I was swinging well and not missing much. I ended up going with the Sim2 because I got a great deal and it was supposed to have added forgiveness with slight mishits. After playing it a season I think I would have been just as successful with the original Sim. 

2. Fitted for the original Stealth compared top my Sim2 and they were so close it was basically a wash. Even the TM rep said I would stick with the Sim2. I think I was just under 1yds longer with the Stealth but again should be more forgiving so I threw out several silly low bis on Ebay and ended up with a new Stealth. After playing it several weeks it was clear I did not hit it as well as my Sim2, forgives was no better and dispersion was worse. I was able to sell it for what I paid and went back to my Sim2. 

3. Fitted for the Stealth2 and was surprised to find the HD version produced 10-12 more yards of carry consistently and it was also straighter. Considering I play a draw I was surprised but picked one up and put it in play. Remember at this point I probably would have had very little difference if any, between the original 4 yr old Sim and my current driver. That is 3 versions going from Sim to Sim2 to Stealth to Stealth 2 HD. I installed a lighter heel weight and added lead tape to the toe to give it a more balanced bias and it has performed like the fitting. 8-10yds longer, better dispersion and I love the look and feel. 

... There is no way to know anything about an individual swing and how a new driver might perform with so many moving parts including but not limited to swing speed, tempo, rhythm, release, contact, AOA, spin, trajectory and smash factor and how they will come together. I have seen players with 10yr old drivers that actually hit them better than a new driver as well as someone hitting this years driver better than last years driver. Both are the extremes and most of us will fall somewhere between those two but you won't know unless you try. Every OEM wants a Tour Player to win using their equipment. The reason so many use the current drivers have nothing to do with their contracts, it has to do with them wanting to play what gives them the best chance of winning. Contrary to some opinions, TM doesn't care if that is a Stealth2 or a SLDR because if they win using the Stealth2 there is an add with it in their hands, but if they won using a SLDR the ad is a picture of the Stealth2 with the player smiling and holding the trophy. 

 

[Javs]

40 minutes ago, JJames said:

Where I live the Callaway Paradym driver "sells" for $880... These prices are insane.

Wow

[Javs]

21 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Good stuff! I am not taking a shot at JJames as I am sure his statements are an accurate reflection of his experience, but I always really dislike broad proclamations like "Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter." Of course there is data. It is called a Launch Monitor used during your Fitting. For every golfer that finds zero difference between an older driver and a newer driver, there is another finding something like APH "but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. "

... Using myself as an example:

1. Fitted for a Sim2 when playing a Sim I did not find much difference at all. I was swinging well and not missing much. I ended up going with the Sim2 because I got a great deal and it was supposed to have added forgiveness with slight mishits. After playing it a season I think I would have been just as successful with the original Sim. 

2. Fitted for the original Stealth compared top my Sim2 and they were so close it was basically a wash. Even the TM rep said I would stick with the Sim2. I think I was just under 1yds longer with the Stealth but again should be more forgiving so I threw out several silly low bis on Ebay and ended up with a new Stealth. After playing it several weeks it was clear I did not hit it as well as my Sim2, forgives was no better and dispersion was worse. I was able to sell it for what I paid and went back to my Sim2. 

3. Fitted for the Stealth2 and was surprised to find the HD version produced 10-12 more yards of carry consistently and it was also straighter. Considering I play a draw I was surprised but picked one up and put it in play. Remember at this point I probably would have had very little difference if any, between the original 4 yr old Sim and my current driver. That is 3 versions going from Sim to Sim2 to Stealth to Stealth 2 HD. I installed a lighter heel weight and added lead tape to the toe to give it a more balanced bias and it has performed like the fitting. 8-10yds longer, better dispersion and I love the look and feel. 

... There is no way to know anything about an individual swing and how a new driver might perform with so many moving parts including but not limited to swing speed, tempo, rhythm, release, contact, AOA, spin, trajectory and smash factor and how they will come together. I have seen players with 10yr old drivers that actually hit them better than a new driver as well as someone hitting this years driver better than last years driver. Both are the extremes and most of us will fall somewhere between those two but you won't know unless you try. Every OEM wants a Tour Player to win using their equipment. The reason so many use the current drivers have nothing to do with their contracts, it has to do with them wanting to play what gives them the best chance of winning. Contrary to some opinions, TM doesn't care if that is a Stealth2 or a SLDR because if they win using the Stealth2 there is an add with it in their hands, but if they won using a SLDR the ad is a picture of the Stealth2 with the player smiling and holding the trophy. 

 

Sounds like my experience only different companies

[JJames]

33 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Good stuff! I am not taking a shot at JJames as I am sure his statements are an accurate reflection of his experience, but I always really dislike broad proclamations like "Driver performance has peaked. Why pay double for less than 0.1% more performance if any. There is no data proving that new drivers go further and straighter." Of course there is data. It is called a Launch Monitor used during your Fitting. For every golfer that finds zero difference between an older driver and a newer driver, there is another finding something like APH "but given the forgiveness and performance of the G430 LST I have compared to the TSi3 it is pretty staggering. "

... Using myself as an example:

1. Fitted for a Sim2 when playing a Sim I did not find much difference at all. I was swinging well and not missing much. I ended up going with the Sim2 because I got a great deal and it was supposed to have added forgiveness with slight mishits. After playing it a season I think I would have been just as successful with the original Sim. 

2. Fitted for the original Stealth compared top my Sim2 and they were so close it was basically a wash. Even the TM rep said I would stick with the Sim2. I think I was just under 1yds longer with the Stealth but again should be more forgiving so I threw out several silly low bis on Ebay and ended up with a new Stealth. After playing it several weeks it was clear I did not hit it as well as my Sim2, forgives was no better and dispersion was worse. I was able to sell it for what I paid and went back to my Sim2. 

3. Fitted for the Stealth2 and was surprised to find the HD version produced 10-12 more yards of carry consistently and it was also straighter. Considering I play a draw I was surprised but picked one up and put it in play. Remember at this point I probably would have had very little difference if any, between the original 4 yr old Sim and my current driver. That is 3 versions going from Sim to Sim2 to Stealth to Stealth 2 HD. I installed a lighter heel weight and added lead tape to the toe to give it a more balanced bias and it has performed like the fitting. 8-10yds longer, better dispersion and I love the look and feel. 

... There is no way to know anything about an individual swing and how a new driver might perform with so many moving parts including but not limited to swing speed, tempo, rhythm, release, contact, AOA, spin, trajectory and smash factor and how they will come together. I have seen players with 10yr old drivers that actually hit them better than a new driver as well as someone hitting this years driver better than last years driver. Both are the extremes and most of us will fall somewhere between those two but you won't know unless you try. Every OEM wants a Tour Player to win using their equipment. The reason so many use the current drivers have nothing to do with their contracts, it has to do with them wanting to play what gives them the best chance of winning. Contrary to some opinions, TM doesn't care if that is a Stealth2 or a SLDR because if they win using the Stealth2 there is an add with it in their hands, but if they won using a SLDR the ad is a picture of the Stealth2 with the player smiling and holding the trophy. 

 

For 3 generations the statement applied. Also I think that the shaft has everything to do with more performance. The head by itself I doubt if there is a big difference. If we tried 10 generations of drivers from any brand with the same shaft and a robot we would not see a huge difference. On miss hits this might be a different story as recently they have worked more on miss hits. They could probably increase it much more on miss hits if you think about it. Drivers have peaked at the center of the face only, everywhere else you can still gain 5 to 10% performance by making it as good as the sweet spot. In the future you will hit anywhere on the face and the ball will fly as if you had a perfect shot. That’s a huge increase in performance. But how good is it today ? Good enough to spend $600 every year ? Probably not. I think a driver every 5 years and if there is a huge difference would make more sense. Truth is a single session of speed sticks would give you much more distance than the newest driver in 10 years.

[chisag]

5 minutes ago, JJames said:

For 3 generations the statement applied. Also I think that the shaft has everything to do with more performance. The head by itself I doubt if there is a big difference. If we tried 10 generations of drivers from any brand with the same shaft and a robot we would not see a huge difference. On miss hits this might be a different story as recently they have worked more on miss hits. They could probably increase it much more on miss hits if you think about it. Drivers have peaked at the center of the face only, everywhere else you can still gain 5 to 10% performance by making it as good as the sweet spot. In the future you will hit anywhere on the face and the ball will fly as if you had a perfect shot. That’s a huge increase in performance. But how good is it today ? Good enough to spend $600 every year ? Probably not. I think a driver every 5 years and if there is a huge difference would make more sense. Truth is a single session of speed sticks would give you much more distance than the newest driver in 10 years.

 

... Thanks for the reply and it seems much different than your original statement. My point being since this is a golf forum and most members love new equipment, everyone is different and there is simply no way to know if a new club is going to work better for you unless you compare them. I have seen players have success with a new club because they lost faith and confidence in their old club. I also think most would agree that about 5 yrs is good for potential performance differences. But had I adhered to that philosophy, I would not have a Stealth2 that is keeping me much younger on the tee than my 70 years would suggest. 

... I would add playing with and doing reviews of new equipment every year, I rarely found anything that demonstrably out performed the previous year or even previous years. But I did find clubs that felt/sounded/looked great at address that increased my enjoyment and once in a great while a club really did make a performance jump. And as an ex instructor, a lesson would be much better than a new club for most. Speed training was not a good fit for me and wrecked my swing for several months. I have a rhythm and tempo honed over 40 years of playing with a smooth transition and excellent timing so swinging aggressively just threw everything out of whack. You can't go from Els to Dechambeau in your late 60's.  Had speed training been popular when I was 50 or younger, I would have a had a better chance of making it work. But I agree it can be really beneficial for some. 

[cnosil]

16 minutes ago, JJames said:

 If we tried 10 generations of drivers from any brand with the same shaft and a robot we would not see a huge difference. On miss hits this might be a different story as recently they have worked more on miss hits. 

When we play golf we don't hit shots with robots;  we as humans swing differently based on how the club feels and looks.  This means we get different performance from different clubs.   I see this every year during MGS most wanted testing;  I am one of the testers and clubs perform differently.  Some I swing faster, some have faster ball speed, some perform better off the toe, some off the heel, some launch higher, some lower, some fade, some hook.   This even applies when using the same shaft in different heads.  

At MGS, we have even hit different generations of drivers and the performance was different.   

Ultimately, the player determines how a driver will perform in their hands and maybe a newer driver will work better and maybe a 5 generation old driver will perform better.   I am happy with my g400 even though it is several generations back. 

[JJames]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

When we play golf we don't hit shots with robots;  we as humans swing differently based on how the club feels and looks.  This means we get different performance from different clubs.   I see this every year during MGS most wanted testing;  I am one of the testers and clubs perform differently.  Some I swing faster, some have faster ball speed, some perform better off the toe, some off the heel, some launch higher, some lower, some fade, some hook.   This even applies when using the same shaft in different heads.  

At MGS, we have even hit different generations of drivers and the performance was different.   

Ultimately, the player determines how a driver will perform in their hands and maybe a newer driver will work better and maybe a 5 generation old driver will perform better.   I am happy with my g400 even though it is several generations back. 

Let’s hope that one day we will see a test with 10 generations of drivers with the same shaft to see the results. I’m also very intrigued. You can see that I play irons that are 32 years old and they perform just fine. For the driver I upgraded because my driver was 15 years old and wasn’t fit anymore for me. I also believe that drivers have evolved more than irons, especially blades which I play. I recently tried the T200 irons and they couldn’t compete with my 32 years old irons at all.

Drivers is another story, when I started golf my woods really sucked compared to what exists today. 

[cnosil]

2 minutes ago, JJames said:

Let’s hope that one day we will see a test with 10 generations of drivers with the same shaft to see the results. I’m also very intrigued. You can see that I play irons that are 32 years old and they perform just fine. For the driver I upgraded because my driver was 15 years old and wasn’t fit anymore for me. I also believe that drivers have evolved more than irons, especially blades which I play. I recently tried the T200 irons and they couldn’t compete with my 32 years old irons at all.

Drivers is another story, when I started golf my woods really sucked compared to what exists today. 

I doubt there will be a test with 10 straight years of drivers.   Testing has shown that there is little improvement from year to year so just jumping back 10 years is all that is needed.   i also think you overvalue the shaft as each driver could feel different with the same shaft resulting in drastically different performance.   

your current irons could be perfect for you just like the t200 might be totally wrong for you.  Just like drivers,  irons have different characteristics that influence performance.   This is why when people come on the forum and ask for a club recommendation the general answer is that you have to go try them and see what works for you.   

[JJames]

1 minute ago, cnosil said:

I doubt there will be a test with 10 straight years of drivers.   Testing has shown that there is little improvement from year to year so just jumping back 10 years is all that is needed.   i also think you overvalue the shaft as each driver could feel different with the same shaft resulting in drastically different performance.   

your current irons could be perfect for you just like the t200 might be totally wrong for you.  Just like drivers,  irons have different characteristics that influence performance.   This is why when people come on the forum and ask for a club recommendation the general answer is that you have to go try them and see what works for you.   

Of course a driver that is 10 years old will not perform as well. The interesting thing is to see where the improvements start to be significant, is it every 2 years ? 3 ? 5 ? By testing the last 10 generations with the same shaft we would have some data that could speak volumes to why and when we should upgrade or start to think about an upgrade. It’s a cheap test to do, get the 10 drivers off ebay, hit 20 balls each, see the results.

[RickyBobby_PR]

55 minutes ago, JJames said:

For 3 generations the statement applied. Also I think that the shaft has everything to do with more performance. The head by itself I doubt if there is a big difference. If we tried 10 generations of drivers from any brand with the same shaft and a robot we would not see a huge difference. On miss hits this might be a different story as recently they have worked more on miss hits. They could probably increase it much more on miss hits if you think about it. Drivers have peaked at the center of the face only, everywhere else you can still gain 5 to 10% performance by making it as good as the sweet spot. In the future you will hit anywhere on the face and the ball will fly as if you had a perfect shot. That’s a huge increase in performance. But how good is it today ? Good enough to spend $600 every year ? Probably not. I think a driver every 5 years and if there is a huge difference would make more sense. Truth is a single session of speed sticks would give you much more distance than the newest driver in 10 years.

Sevens companies have done tests with shafts from the lighted softest flex to the stiffest flex king driver shafts and using slow to long drive swing speeds. What they found using a robot is that all the shafts performed the same and were within about 100 rpm of spin.

Shafts don’t matter as much as people think and are a timing mechanism for golfers. Some are more sensitive to weigh and stiffness profile changes than others, and this could affect club delivery but they aren’t on their own producing more or less distance 

[JJames]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Sevens companies have done tests with shafts from the lighted softest flex to the stiffest flex king driver shafts and using slow to long drive swing speeds. What they found using a robot is that all the shafts performed the same and were within about 100 rpm of spin.

Shafts don’t matter as much as people think and are a timing mechanism for golfers. Some are more sensitive to weigh and stiffness profile changes than others, and this could affect club delivery but they aren’t on their own producing more or less distance 

I went from regular to extra stiff and it changed everything. From crazy high balls to straight penetrating flights. After the change I kept beating my best distance every few days. Please can you provide a link to the studies ? Because everything I’ve tested with shafts shows a huge difference in performance for a given energy level. The robot might be able to swing 100mph each shaft with precision, but a human can not swing the same a ladies shaft and a super extra stiff shaft.

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 minutes ago, JJames said:

I went from regular to extra stiff and it changed everything. From crazy high balls to straight penetrating flights. After the change I kept beating my best distance every few days. Please can you provide a link to the studies ? Because everything I’ve tested with shafts shows a huge difference in performance for a given energy level. The robot might be able to swing 100mph each shaft with precision, but a human can not swing the same a ladies shaft and a super extra stiff shaft.

As humans we are affected by how things feel and that has a role in how we deliver the club. The shaft didn’t change your launch or spin, the shaft affected your swing and allowed a better swing which changed how the club was delivered to include dynamic loft and contact on the face. Where the contact occurred improved your spin and launch

Also there’s no industry standard for flex so unless you used the same shaft in the same weight class you really can’t say you went from regular to x stiff. 

There are hundreds of threads on wrx that talk about this as well. Howard Jones as several threats on the subject 

From Tom Wishon 

Shaft Myth #2 – The shaft is the most important component of the golf club

Sorry, but when you’re talking about ALL golfers, the shaft is not as important to the actual performance of the shot as is the clubhead. I’ll give you an example of when this was actually “tested and proven” in the golf industry by a huge number of golfers. Back in the early 1970s when PING golf company moved to the front of the golf industry through the introduction of their deep cavity back original Ping Eye model irons, the standard shaft installed in every set of Eye irons was a 125 gram X flex steel shaft. 

Ping’s founder Karsten Solheim used these shafts in his irons because he believed a heavier and stiffer shaft would help all golfers hit the ball straighter. Literally millions of sets of PING irons with X flex heavier weight steel shafts were sold throughout the 1970s and you know what? Literally millions of golfers liked their new PING irons more than their previous irons. Why? Because the original PING Eye irons were the very first irons with a deep cavity back design AND lower lofts than what had been the norm for irons – this meant the moment of inertia (MOI) of the Eye irons was FAR higher than any previous iron model yet designed. This in turn gave golfers such a huge improvement in off center hit performance as well as on center hit distance over the irons they previously used that this big leap forward in head performance completely overshadowed the potentially bad effects to golfers using a shaft that was too heavy and too stiff for their swing. 

Of course, we know today that playing with too heavy and too stiff of a shaft can rob the golfer of clubhead speed and shot consistency and make the feeling of impact become “dead and boardy.” But the point shown by the PING example of the 1970s is that if the clubhead’s improvement is great enough for the golfer over what they used to play, the shaft does not have to be accurately fit for the golfer to still realize significant game improvement.

 

I’ve added a pic that shows how spin and launch are affected by where on the face contact is made

[cnosil]

23 minutes ago, JJames said:

Of course a driver that is 10 years old will not perform as well. The interesting thing is to see where the improvements start to be significant, is it every 2 years ? 3 ? 5 ? By testing the last 10 generations with the same shaft we would have some data that could speak volumes to why and when we should upgrade or start to think about an upgrade. It’s a cheap test to do, get the 10 drivers off ebay, hit 20 balls each, see the results.

MyGolfSpy has said that is about every 4-5 years that a player should start to consider a new driver.    This is obviously from a performance perspective;  some golfers upgrade every year simply because they want new equipment.   

[MacTourney]

I run market rate pricing through an extensive cost-benefit analysis.  If the play club costs $500 it had better deliver 500 yards of distance or.....no deal.

[Preeway]

39 minutes ago, JJames said:

I went from regular to extra stiff and it changed everything. From crazy high balls to straight penetrating flights. After the change I kept beating my best distance every few days. Please can you provide a link to the studies ? Because everything I’ve tested with shafts shows a huge difference in performance for a given energy level. The robot might be able to swing 100mph each shaft with precision, but a human can not swing the same a ladies shaft and a super extra stiff shaft.

Absolutely right that shafts make a significant difference in performance. Finding the shaft that delivers the club face to the optimal position makes everything worth while. And with so many options in both graphite and steel let your fitter put you in the best position.