Help with high-spin-wedge shot

[BK in TEXAS]

I didn't want to completely high-jack the other thread discussing golf ball type and spin (http://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/6084-spin-and-golf-ball-type/) so I started this one. This is a video of me trying to hit the low trajectory high spin wedge shot. I was hoping someone could let me know if I'm in the right ballpark or waaaaay off base. The last thing I want to do is ingrain the wrong swing.

 

 

Thanks!

BK

[Moecat]

Sorry, but your link doesn't seem to work.

[BK in TEXAS]

Sorry, but your link doesn't seem to work.

OK...now it seems to be embedded. Not sure how I did that, but....

[BK in TEXAS]

FWIW that was a 60Ëš wedge that went 55 yards.

[JMiller]

1) Ball is WAY to far back in your stance. The ball position is causing you to come down too steep and just stab the club into the ground hitting it super fat.

--> The proper ball position on all 'standard' shots is the left ear. You can move the ball about 1 ball size back and set it up on your noise if you wanted. but no further back then that is really necessary. I think a lot of your contact and spin issues take care of them self when you fix that ball position. If I want a low trajectory high spinning shot i move the ball back to my noise.

--> clean grooves, loft and solid contact = high spin, I am not sure if you were trying to hit a low trajectory high spin shot as you finished low and had a slight chicken wing.

 

2) just a general thing, it might be an optical illusion what length of shafts are you playing, they look long for a 60* wedge. I have all my wedges (PW, GW, SW, LW) playing to 35.25" and i am 5'11", a 36" wedge would be completely goofy in my hands for example.

[BK in TEXAS]

I don't have a front view might be able to confirm a few things here and there but for the looks of it I have a few questions.

The front view is right after the DTL view.

 

 

I am not sure if you were trying to hit a low trajectory high spin shot as you finished low and had a slight chicken wing.

 

Yes, that is exactly what I am trying to hit!

[JMiller]

The front view is right after the DTL view.

 

Sorry I meant to remove that I only watched the first 1/2 when I started typing.

 

A punch shot is a slightly different shot then a low spinning wedge shot, punch has more a full backswing and low finish with a full release of the hands.

 

I am not sure if you have ever heard of the "clock system"? It is just using different length swings, such as 7 o'clock to 3 o'clock or 9 o'clock to 3 o'clock. Low spinners you don't really need a huge long backswing matter of fact it is easier to keep them low without a full backswing.

 

I think I posted in a different topic on how to hit the low spinner. I'll copy and paste that post here to make it easier

 

lets look at Mr. Langer hitting a low spinner. The things to point out is stance width, ball position, backswing length, release.

--> clean grooves, obviously needed to spin a shot

--> ball position at the chin in the stance

--> stance width is narrower and weight pre-loaded on the front leg (about 70-30 or 80-20)

--> face is slightly open maybe 1 - 2* at address

--> backswing is to about 7 o'clock position, looks like a good wrist set

--> accelerate down into the back of the ball tapping it taking just a little divot

--> hold off the release a little, some people like to chicken wing the hold off and get hands low and shaft low to get the ball flight as low as possible, a little higher slight would be in the video below where there is a little release.

--> notice that Mr. Langer just mostly turns through the shot with the upper body no real wrist manipulation at all.

 

here is a video of Mr. Langer showing us the low spinner.

[RookieBlue7]

Looked for it for a while, but here's an article I read a loooong time ago by Ernie Els that helped me hit this shot flawlessly(he calls it the nipper, so that's what I call it now). I've had it in my bag ever since then, and it's a very useful shot, just wished it had the pictures from the original article. I had the paper copy of the magazine until last year when I threw out everything before 08'.

 

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0HFI/is_8_55/ai_n13467280/

 

Here's another article on this shot from a different publication. Doesn't have the views from all 3 angles, but it has a few pics: http://www.golftoday.co.uk/proshop/features/the_nipper.html

 

A few tips I have to hit it from my experimenting:

 

-Play it 2-3 balls back from your normal wedge position

-Ensure ball first contact

-Do not allow your wrists to break down at any time, instead, keep them FIRM throughout the shot (this keeps the club delofted, which produces the low trajectory)

-Do not decelerate through impact, accelerate (vary distance by varying back and through swing length)

[RoverRick]

OK, now that I have that sorted out. I posted something here that I meant to write on another thread.

 

For the low, spinning wedge, as opposed to a wedge with low spin, you have have too much wrist action. With that much wrist action you need to have the ball further up in your stance and it will be a high trajectory spinning wedge shot. For a low trajectory high spin shot, there is almost no wrist action, and you have to hit down on the ball. It is difficult to tell with the mat flying if the club strikes the ball first and then the ground. Also, the tempo seems a little quick. This is almost a slow motion shot.

 

In the video of Langer that was posted here, pay particular attention to his wrists, and tempo.

[BK in TEXAS]

OK, thanks. That gives me some good things to work on. I hit a few hundred of these shots today, and tomorrow I'll take it to a practice green and see how they react on a real putting surface as opposed to my uneven lumpy backyard grass.

[RoverRick]

OK, thanks. That gives me some good things to work on. I hit a few hundred of these shots today, and tomorrow I'll take it to a practice green and see how they react on a real putting surface as opposed to my uneven lumpy backyard grass.

 

Dang, I was in such a hurry to fix my screwed up post that I did not read everyone else, but RookieBlue said everything that I did.

[RoverRick]

One more thing, club head speed and loft translate to height. Groove and cover translate to spin. You can have a high shot without a lot of spin, and you can have a low shot with lots of spin.

 

I play all the time with guys who accidentally hit down on the ball with their chip, not pitch, but a chip from just off the green. They trap the ball and it flies three feet, and checks up. On the next hole they decide that the ball is going to grap today, so they plan for it and roll it 20 feet past the hole.

 

Moral of the story, is you can stop a ball with a chip by striking down on it, (off the outside of back foot, weight forward, ball first contact, clean grooves, and firm wrists by striking down on it.) This differs from a regular chip in the the ball is further back and you must trap the ball between the club face and the ground. Once again, it is this squeezing of the ball against the ground and club face, the ball sliding up the face, the grooves grabbing the soft cover, that creates the spin.

 

The medium (height) spinning shot is created with a faster clubhead speed and the clubface having more effective loft. Spin is created still by the groove-cover interaction.

 

 

The high (height) spinning shot (flop) is created with a faster club head speed and more effective loft still. But the wrist are not held firm. In this case, the wrist break at the precise moment and the clubhead passes under the ball, the groove-cover interaction still happens but it is not trapped.

 

Yesterday, I was on a mogal, 12 feet from the flag, downhill lie, 5 feet to the green, and 7 more to the flag and 4 feet above the green with no way to hit a flop. I decided a putter from there was going to leave me a 20 foot putt at best, so I opted for the high spin low chip. I moved it outside my right foot, hit down on it with my wedge, and trapped the ball. It spun like a top, hit the green, nearly stopped and then creeped to with in 6 inches of the hole. I acted like I make those shots all day long, and complained loudly that I expected that to go in when in reality I elated to have something less than a 10 foot comebacker.

[BK in TEXAS]

Wow. I'm finding it REALLY difficult to keep my wrists still.

[RoverRick]

Firm vs still. From 12 to 1 on a clock face is 30 degrees. You do not want to have 0 movement but you probably only want 15 to 20 degrees of movement. No real intentional wrist movement but not stiff. This is the right wrist. the left wrist is pretty firm. The left wrist could be played in a cast.

[BK in TEXAS]

The left wrist could be played in a cast.

 

Good! That's the mental image I've been using practicing this this AM.

 

Thank you.

 

BK

[JMiller]

Just to touch on ball position as it is a very common error, align the ball to your upper body.

 

The error comes from aligning the ball with feet position reference. "play it off the back foot" is piss poor advice as stance width can change and then obvious change ball position relative to the upper body. If you line of the ball position with your head you can move your feet narrow and as wide as you want to support the upper body and the ball position doesn't change.

 

If the left ear is the reference point for standard, the deviation of ball position for most people will be 1 to 3 balls and still get good contact and change trajectory a little. Follow through does the rest of the trajectory for you.

1 ball back = about left eye

2 ball back = about noise / chin

3 ball back = right eye / right ear

 

Driver left ear to 1 ball forward = low trajectory

Driver 2 balls forward = normal medium trajectory

Driver 3 balls forward = high trajectory

 

 

please post a new video when you have some more updates to what you are trying to do, it is easy for us to look and comment.

[Moecat]

I found this pretty useful for ball positioning (Ben Hogan's approach).

 

 

That and more may be found here ... http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AddressSetup.htm

[Moecat]

Caveat: Hogan's approach is recommended for those who use a significant amount of lower body drive in their golf swing.

 

I found this pretty useful for ball positioning (Ben Hogan's approach).

 

 

That and more may be found here ... http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/AddressSetup.htm

[JMiller]

Hogan's method does illustrate one thing, ball position for a standard shot is pretty much consistent. He just moved his right foot which moved the ball in terms of position to head left ear.

 

I might be wrong but the OP looks mostly like a one-plane backswing more then a hybrid or a two plane. By that I mean the arms travel around the shoulders in-sync and finish at about the same angle. Hybrid swingers would have a little bit of a two plane takeaway and finish in-between a two-plane and one plane. Tiger Woods of 1999 and 2000 is a perfect example of a hybrid swing.

[BK in TEXAS]

i might be wrong but i think the OP appears to have a one-plane backswing, so that is really the only type of advice in terms of downswing sequence that he should accept.

 

Just a quick FYI that might clear some questions up.....I am ONLY trying to learn a low traj, high spin wedge shot with consistency. This video is not a normal swing for me.

 

While I have no idea what my swing planes are, what I can say is that the downswing in the video is not at all indicative of my "normal" downswing. The backswing might be close.....but.......the video is an easy 3/4 swing for a 55 yard pitch shot.....so it may not be close either.

 

Tomorrow I'll post a video of where I am currently at with the high spin shot and I'll also post one of my normal iron swing just for kicks.

 

BK

 

PS....I greatly, greatly, appreciate the help and advice I have been given in working on this pitch shot. It's very cool.

[JMiller]

well a swing plane is nothing more then the shaft plane at address compared to the backswing and top position. In other words if the arms work around the body with the shoulders and come to rest at about the same angle of tilt at the top it is one-lane swing. Matt Kuchar is an example. A two plane golfer will get above the shaft line on the way back and have there hands way high above their shoulder plane. Fredie Couples, Tiger Woods recently, Bernhard Langer are two-plane golf swings. A Hybrid is something in the middle of the two, like Tiger Woods from 2000.

 

A 1/2 swing or 3/4 swing is just a mini full swing. If you are using two methods for each one that might cause inconsistency. For me as a hybrid swinger from my 9 o'clock (where you stopped the backswing in your video) all i have to do it a little more right arm lifting and a little more shoulder turn and I'm into my top position.

[RookieBlue7]

Oh, another tip I just thought of when practicing this shot. Try to pick out a dimple at the ball's equator on the backside, and hit that spot when swinging. The divot should start half an inch to an inch after the ball. This lets you know that you've acheived ball first contact and hit the ball with a descending blow (two critical components for hitting this shot).

[RoverRick]

Oh, another tip I just thought of when practicing this shot. Try to pick out a dimple at the ball's equator on the backside, and hit that spot when swinging. The divot should start half an inch to an inch after the ball. This lets you know that you've acheived ball first contact and hit the ball with a descending blow (two critical components for hitting this shot).

 

I actually aim for the front of the ball. This means that to hit the spot I am aiming at the ball must be struck first. And then the divot.....see above thread.

[JMiller]

where to look at the ball is about optical dominance, which eye you prefer to see the line and picture better using.

 

A simple test for eye dominance is to form a circle with your index finger and thumb touching on one hand with both eyes open have a small object shown through the middle of the circle formed by the fingers like a coin. Close on eye remember if the object moved or stayed in the middle. Now do the same thing closing the other eye. The object should shift in the non-dominant eye and stay centered in the dominant eye.

 

For my closing my right eye the object shifts, closing my left eye the object stays in place. I am a right eye dominant golfer so i tend to look more at the back of the ball in my swing. If you are left eye dominant and a RH golfer then the front of the ball is an easier spot to look at.

[RoverRick]

where to look at the ball is about optical dominance, which eye you prefer to see the line and picture better using.

 

A simple test for eye dominance is to form a circle with your index finger and thumb touching on one hand with both eyes open have a small object shown through the middle of the circle formed by the fingers like a coin. Close on eye remember if the object moved or stayed in the middle. Now do the same thing closing the other eye. The object should shift in the non-dominant eye and stay centered in the dominant eye.

 

For my closing my right eye the object shifts, closing my left eye the object stays in place. I am a right eye dominant golfer so i tend to look more at the back of the ball in my swing. If you are left eye dominant and a RH golfer then the front of the ball is an easier spot to look at.

 

This has nothing to do with eye dominance. Actually as I stated in an earlier thread, I am now looking at the 7 o'clock position of the ball on drivers and longer clubs promote a more sweeping inside out move. Ball position keeps this from being a draw. I now am accustom hitting down on the ball, so it does not matter where I look at the ball, I still have a decending blow.

 

However when I started this effort to trap the ball, I found that by looking at the front of the ball I absolutely had to hit it first. This lead to better contact. Especially with high spinning wedges because the ball must be compressed to hit the low trajectory high spinning ball.

[BK in TEXAS]

OK...here is my normal swing and the low traj high spin wedge I've been practicing:

Normal 6 Iron Swing

I'm slowly getting better at the low spinning wedge shot, but keeping the left wrist firm is giving me fits. Some shots stop cold, other still run out. Anyway is this swing going in the right direction?

Low trajectory, high spin wedge swing

[JMiller]

This has nothing to do with eye dominance.

 

Perception of the line in front of the ball or behind the ball has everything to do with eye dominance. This is true in putting and also tends to be true in the full swing. Eye dominance is always as to what portion of the ball someone prefers to look at and see the line of play more naturally. That is straight out of Burnt Edges Consulting for putting and normally holds very true in full swings regardless of if you are doing it consciously on unconsciously.

 

Jack Nicklaus had a head cock away from the target because he was left eye dominant as a RH golfer. This allowed him to see the line and ball more clearly in his address position and swing. If I were to focus on the front of a golf ball my head tilt would be slightly towards the target as I see my line of play better with my right eye, I am right eye dominant.

 

It really has nothing to do with trying to swing 7 o'clock to 12 o'clock on the ball that should happen naturally in proper mechanics & down swing sequence anyways. Some people on your clock system can focus on the 7 o'clock to make that happen, others will tend to focus more on the 12 o'clock to get the same result. It is all eye dominance and how you naturally view the line of play.

 

That is just my opinion, for me a a right eye golfer I prefer seeing the line of play from behind the ball into the back of the ball, as a left eye player someone might prefer to see the line from the ball to in front of the ball. naturally either way it places you on the right 1/2 of the ball or left half of the ball.

[RoverRick]

Being right eye dominant mysellf I have this to say. "Eye dominance has nothing to do with this." " I found that by looking at the front of the ball I absolutely had to hit it first. This lead to better contact. Especially with high spinning wedges because the ball must be compressed to hit the low trajectory high spinning ball. "

 

I do not look at the ball at all while putting. Either the hole or a spot in front of the ball. Which is a different thread.

 

If you hit the ground just in front of the ball, but not the ground behind the ball. then you have hit the ball first. NO matter which eye you saw it out of.

[RoverRick]

BK I am not sure it is really happening in this video of the full swing or not but it looks like you start releasing your wrist a little early. I can not tell by your wrists but the clubhead looks like it has passed the shaft while you hands are still at waist high. It is certainly not as bad as I used to do. I find that trying to keep the wrist firm in all shots has really helped me.

[BK in TEXAS]

I can not tell by your wrists but the clubhead looks like it has passed the shaft while you hands are still at waist high. It is certainly not as bad as I used to do. I find that trying to keep the wrist firm in all shots has really helped me.

Hmmm....I looked at the original file frame by frame and it looks like the clubhead and hands get there about the same time...hands maybe an inch or two ahead of the clubhead....but not much.