Iron shaft fitting: Less to it than I thought

[Shlax]

So I went at my local golf store to buy gloves this afternoon and I literally had the store to myself. I mean: LITERALLY.

One thing lead to another and I quickly found myself in a fitting bay… Dangerous situation, I know.

I informed the fitter that I wasn’t planning on buying anything but that I wanted to try a few shafts. As he basically had nothing better to do, he gladly let me hit a few shots. After a few swings and a quick discussion, he saw that I was a true gear nerd and that I knew what I was talking about so he put me through the whole deluxe +++ fitting experience for roughly an hour and a half.

In the process, I tried many iron heads and all available iron shafts + a few drivers and hybrids.

With the Mizuno JPX923 Forged, I tried:

- KBS Tour FLT 120S (the shafts in my Srixon Z785s)

- KBS Tour 130X (the shafts in my Caley 01CBs)

- KBS $-Taper 130X

- Project X Rifle 6.5

- Nippon Modus3 120X

- True Temper Dynamic Gold X100

I wanted to verify the stats as my Caley 01CBs truly left me speechless at how much better my ball flight was with the KBS Tour 130X than with the KBS Tour FLT 120S on my Srixon Z785s.

The simulator data indicated that I was overspinning the stiff KBS Tour FLT shaft which is something that I knew based on the ball flight of my Srixon Z785s.

On the other hand, the launch parameters with the KBS Tour 130X shaft were quite literally perfect which is also something that I suspected based on the Caley 01CBs member testing.

To my surprise, my stats with any of the x-stiff shafts were virtually identical. If I was to change irons tomorrow, I could game any of the shafts listed above and there wouldn’t be any difference whatsoever in performance, ball flight, etc. My shaft choice would 100% come down to personal preference and feel. In my case, the KBS $-Taper was the winner with the other shafts following closely without much differentiating them with the exception of the True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 which didn’t quite load as smoothly for me. However, the launch parameters and ball flight were literally identical to that of the other shafts.

This is a long intro to say that I honestly thought that a fitting would provide night and day results with regards to shaft and gear performance. I was ecstatic at the opportunity that I had to roam around the fitting bay today, but the results are overall somewhat underwhelming. Knowing what I know now, I would be very confident buying a set online without truly trying them first.

Did you have a similar fitting experience/end result? Is it common to not see a shaft pop up as being the definitive unicorn/chosen one?

[Shlax]

Note: I managed to leave the store unscathed with only a 20$ hit to my wallet for two golf gloves.

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, Shlax said:

The simulator data indicated that I was overspinning the stiff KBS Tour FLT shaft which is something that I knew based on the ball flight of my Srixon Z785s.

 

Shafts don’t spin. So with that shaft there had to be a difference in dynamic loft, possibly swing path and face to path relationship.

8 hours ago, Shlax said:

To my surprise, my stats with any of the x-stiff shafts were virtually identical.

This means that your club delivery with these shafts have a weight and profile that fit your swing.

8 hours ago, Shlax said:

This is a long intro to say that I honestly thought that a fitting would provide night and day results with regards to shaft and gear performance

There’s no guarantee a fitting will provide some kind of night and day performance. It all depends on how good of a fit ones current set is and he any changes affect club delivery. There are plenty of people that get fit and nothing that’s currently on the market beats out their current set. 
 

People don’t want to hear it but shafts have been tested by club manufacturers and the shows that launch and spin don’t change much from a low swing speed player to a long drive swing speed across the various wegiths and flexes and that it’s the feel from weight and balance of the club and how it affects the golfers swing. When the feel or balance is off it will cause a golfer to manipulate the swing to achieve the desired results. This is why in fittings the fitter will only have the golfer hit 3-5 shots.

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Shafts don’t spin. So with that shaft there had to be a difference in dynamic loft, possibly swing path and face to path relationship.

This means that your club delivery with these shafts have a weight and profile that fit your swing.

There’s no guarantee a fitting will provide some kind of night and day performance. It all depends on how good of a fit ones current set is and he any changes affect club delivery. There are plenty of people that get fit and nothing that’s currently on the market beats out their current set. 
 

People don’t want to hear it but shafts have been tested by club manufacturers and the shows that launch and spin don’t change much from a low swing speed player to a long drive swing speed across the various wegiths and flexes and that it’s the feel from weight and balance of the club and how it affects the golfers swing. When the feel or balance is off it will cause a golfer to manipulate the swing to achieve the desired results. This is why in fittings the fitter will only have the golfer hit 3-5 shots.

 

I don't want to get into too much and hijack the thread. And I know you're side as you've stated countless times shafts don't spin. 

However as they change how someone can swing and then therefore influence the AOA and other properties changing spin characteristics does that not mean in a sense they do effect spin as a by product of their features?

Just a thought, not expecting a long indepth response, just my own personal thought that yes they do influence spin. Maybe not directly, but indirectly they do or can.

It's likely more semantics and just a general golfers perceived notion.

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I don't want to get into too much and hijack the thread. And I know you're side as you've stated countless times shafts don't spin. 

However as they change how someone can swing and then therefore influence the AOA and other properties changing spin characteristics does that not mean in a sense they do effect spin as a by product of their features?

Just a thought, not expecting a long indepth response, just my own personal thought that yes they do influence spin. Maybe not directly, but indirectly they do or can.

It's likely more semantics and just a general golfers perceived notion.

Shafts don’t spin, but they certainly do influence spin, as you have correctly stated. I think that this is what the shaft manufacturers and shaft reviewers mean by “low spin” and “high spin” shafts.

[ZackS]

The shaft debate on launch and spin I personally feel is just getting stuck to much on semantics. At the end of the day a shaft in a vacuum with a robot does not significantly effect launch or spin. But in the real world they do have a direct effect on launch and spin my how it makes you deliver the club. How much and in which way are going to be different for each individual. I think where launch and spin profiles come in is they say how it will effect the majority of golfers as they can't sell "Here's a new shaft. Guess you have to hit it to find out". Yes, companies do over exaggerate the effects but this is true for any products. We can still use profiles and others experiences to help gauge generalizations if you don't have the ability to get fully fit and are trying to narrow things down and get a pretty good fit. But you will never know 100% the effects to you without hitting them side by side. But as an example of how they can have a pretty significant effect for some here are some my numbers when I was comparing shafts recently. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by ZackS

[funkyjudge]

As a Professional Clubfitter with more than 33 years of experience, I can agree to a point regarding the effect of golf shafts on both launch and spin. The numbers will vary fairly widely from golfer to golfer, but the differences among various shaft models relative to each other is almost always a constant. In other words, if shaft A is a “lower spin” shaft compared with shaft B, it is almost always going to provide LOWER (although not necessarily LOW) backspin for all golfers.

The golfer’s swing mechanics, ball position, etc. are the primary (dare I say virtually the sole) influences on ball spin, aside from the ball itself. However, a shaft with a very stiff tip and midsection will REDUCE backspin for nearly all golfers. It’s just that golfers who have poor swing mechanics that create more ball spin — especially sidespin (poor swing path, downward angle of attack - a/k/a “hitting down on the ball”, etc.) — will impart more spin, regardless of the shaft that they are using. When fitting such golfers, I find that so-called “low spin” shafts can help reduce excessive spin to a point, but this is by no means the ideal way to deal with such swing flaws. Unless and until the golfer is dedicated to correcting their swing flaws, fitting them with “lower spin” shafts can at least provide a bit of a band-aid approach to dealing with their flaws, but it needs to be clearly communicated to the golfer that this is a far less than ideal approach to their swing issues.

BTW, no shaft, regardless of how “low spin” it is, will do a thing to address excessive sidespin caused by hitting the ball with a seriously non-square clubface!

Edited October 15, 2023 by funkyjudge

[Shlax]

14 hours ago, Shlax said:

So I went at my local golf store to buy gloves this afternoon and I literally had the store to myself. I mean: LITERALLY.

One thing lead to another and I quickly found myself in a fitting bay… Dangerous situation, I know.

I informed the fitter that I wasn’t planning on buying anything but that I wanted to try a few shafts. As he basically had nothing better to do, he gladly let me hit a few shots. After a few swings and a quick discussion, he saw that I was a true gear nerd and that I knew what I was talking about so he put me through the whole deluxe +++ fitting experience for roughly an hour and a half.

In the process, I tried many iron heads and all available iron shafts + a few drivers and hybrids.

With the Mizuno JPX923 Forged, I tried:

- KBS Tour FLT 120S (the shafts in my Srixon Z785s)

- KBS Tour 130X (the shafts in my Caley 01CBs)

- KBS $-Taper 130X

- Project X Rifle 6.5

- Nippon Modus3 120X

- True Temper Dynamic Gold X100

I wanted to verify the stats as my Caley 01CBs truly left me speechless at how much better my ball flight was with the KBS Tour 130X than with the KBS Tour FLT 120S on my Srixon Z785s.

The simulator data indicated that I was overspinning the stiff KBS Tour FLT shaft which is something that I knew based on the ball flight of my Srixon Z785s.

On the other hand, the launch parameters with the KBS Tour 130X shaft were quite literally perfect which is also something that I suspected based on the Caley 01CBs member testing.

To my surprise, my stats with any of the x-stiff shafts were virtually identical. If I was to change irons tomorrow, I could game any of the shafts listed above and there wouldn’t be any difference whatsoever in performance, ball flight, etc. My shaft choice would 100% come down to personal preference and feel. In my case, the KBS $-Taper was the winner with the other shafts following closely without much differentiating them with the exception of the True Temper Dynamic Gold X100 which didn’t quite load as smoothly for me. However, the launch parameters and ball flight were literally identical to that of the other shafts.

This is a long intro to say that I honestly thought that a fitting would provide night and day results with regards to shaft and gear performance. I was ecstatic at the opportunity that I had to roam around the fitting bay today, but the results are overall somewhat underwhelming. Knowing what I know now, I would be very confident buying a set online without truly trying them first.

Did you have a similar fitting experience/end result? Is it common to not see a shaft pop up as being the definitive unicorn/chosen one?

Forgot to mention that I tried the KBS C-Taper 130X as well. I know that this shaft, along with the Project X Rifle 6.5, are generally considered as very stout shafts or almost rebar-like. In my experience: Nope! They felt really smooth and loaded nicely.

The smoothest and to some extent, softest of the bunch, was the Nippon Modus3. It felt effortless but there was maybe too much movement going on it felt like, at least to me.

The only shaft that I did not like as much was the Dynamic Gold X100 as it felt boardy, a bit like swinging a tree trunk almost.

[Shlax]

4 hours ago, ZackS said:

The shaft debate on launch and spin I personally feel is just getting stuck to much on semantics. At the end of the day a shaft in a vacuum with a robot does not significantly effect launch or spin. But in the real world they do have a direct effect on launch and spin my how it makes you deliver the club. How much and in which way are going to be different for each individual. I think where launch and spin profiles come in is they say how it will effect the majority of golfers as they can't sell "Here's a new shaft. Guess you have to hit it to find out". Yes, companies do over exaggerate the effects but this is true for any products. We can still use profiles and others experiences to help gauge generalizations if you don't have the ability to get fully fit and are trying to narrow things down and get a pretty good fit. But you will never know 100% the effects to you without hitting them side by side. But as an example of how they can have a pretty significant effect for some here are some my numbers when I was comparing shafts recently. 

Interesting. For all practical purposes, the variations between the three shafts are somewhat minor except for spin (these stats are with a 7-iron right?). Did you feel that you could game these three shafts? Which one did you choose?

In my case, and because I tried 7 shafts, the incremental variations in launch parameters between each shafts was likely reduced due to the data set being more populated.

I don’t have a screenshot of my actual numbers, but the data spread of the key launch parameters between the 6 different x-stiff shafts (removing the stiff KBS Tour FLT) that I tried was similar to yours except for spin (e.g., max 2° in launch angle, max 10 ft of apex and max 400 rpm of backspin).

Edited October 15, 2023 by Shlax
Typos

[cnosil]

17 hours ago, Shlax said:

This is a long intro to say that I honestly thought that a fitting would provide night and day results with regards to shaft and gear performance. I was ecstatic at the opportunity that I had to roam around the fitting bay today, but the results are overall somewhat underwhelming. Knowing what I know now, I would be very confident buying a set online without truly trying them first.

Did you have a similar fitting experience/end result? Is it common to not see a shaft pop up as being the definitive unicorn/chosen one?

Sounds like a fun time.  I always enjoy trying out different pieces of equipment to see what they do and how they perform.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

I don't want to get into too much and hijack the thread. And I know you're side as you've stated countless times shafts don't spin. 

However as they change how someone can swing and then therefore influence the AOA and other properties changing spin characteristics does that not mean in a sense they do effect spin as a by product of their features?

Just a thought, not expecting a long indepth response, just my own personal thought that yes they do influence spin. Maybe not directly, but indirectly they do or can.

It's likely more semantics and just a general golfers perceived notion.

They don’t spin but he’s they have an impact on the launch characteristics because they have can have an influence on the swing. The influence on the swing will lead to changes in the delivery of the club especially dynamic loft. The change in dynamic loft along with contact on the face, swing path and face to path.

AoA doesn’t have nearly the impact on spin as people want to believe. There are plenty of people who have a +5-6 aoa with driver than have high spin. It comes from high dynamic loft and low contact on the face.

let’s look at driver as an example. Simply by changing the contact point by 1/8” changes spin by 240rpm and launch by .35°. 
 

Loft will have more more impact on spin than a shaft. Anyone looking to change spin should look at contact point on club including irons, dynamic loft, path and face to path. So when someone says they spin a shaft less or more it’s not the shaft, it’s the affect of the shaft on delivery. They should compare all the launch characteristics of the original shaft against the other shafts and not just spin. Same with changes in distance. That needs to also account for apex and land angle

There are several members on here who have gone down the rabbit hole of trying to change spin and loft via shaft and got nowhere other than more frustrated.

Its not just me saying shafts don’t spin it’s shaft design experts, respected fitters and unfortunately unpublished tests/studies done by Callaway and a couple other club brands.

Edited October 15, 2023 by RickyBobby_PR

[ZackS]

2 hours ago, Shlax said:

Interesting. For all practical purposes, the variations between the three shafts are somewhat minor except for spin (these stats are with a 7-iron right?). Did you feel that you could game these three shafts? Which one did you choose?

In my case, and because I tried 7 shafts, the incremental variations in launch parameters between each shafts was likely reduced due to the data set being more populated.

I don’t have a screenshot of my actual numbers, but the data spread of the key launch parameters between the 6 different x-stiff shafts (removing the stiff KBS Tour FLT) that I tried was similar to yours except for spin (e.g., max 2° in launch angle, max 10 ft of apex and max 400 rpm of backspin).

Those # are from a 7 iron. I went with the Modus 120 for multiple reasons. I could game any of them but probably would not the DG120 in my current irons as if anything I was looking for lower launch and more spin if I could then the KBS Tour 120 I had and they did the opposite. I have gamed the KBS Tour 120 in the Takomo 101t's and had the KBS 130 X in my last set I had for many years and do like the feel. I started looking into the Modus 120's as I was looking to increase my swing weights a few points and KBS Tours are higher balance point then most. When doing research a Nippon rep stated that on the Modus 120 was designed with a lower balance point to make it feel heavier even though the total weight is lighter. When testing them I liked the feel and seemed to get good dispersion with them every time. I am not a heavy loader and don't really feel shaft load much unless I am using a much softer flex but with the Modus I could feel it if I was to get a little quick in transition which I like. I think because they are a little easer to load it makes me slow my tempo some which is what I have to do to hit a punch shot and I am steeper when I do this. Who knows for sure but I think this is why launch them a little lower and get more spin. So combine a lower balance point, lower launch, higher spin, good smooth feel and most important better dispersion and standard deviation it was a winner for me. As a side note there was even a bigger difference in balance point then I thought as the swing weight went up 3 points from the KBS to the Modus. 

Edited October 15, 2023 by ZackS

[zengineer]

Insisting that shafts don't spin is believing loft has nothing to do with it either. Different shafts result in different loft angles at impact, and to some degree could even change clubhead path.

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[cnosil]

2 hours ago, zengineer said:

Insisting that shafts don't spin is believing loft has nothing to do with it either. Different shafts result in different loft angles at impact, and to some degree could even change clubhead path.

 

Is it the shaft or is it the person changing their swing because of the shaft?   It is like saying everyone hits a low launch shaft low; truth is they don’t all hit them low.   This is where the robot vs human discussion comes into play; change a shaft on a robot and they results will be pretty much the same.  Give a different shaft to a human and like you indicate the swing changes which causes the resulting spin change.  The “shafts don’t spin” is a play on words because it won’t work the same for everyone and if they did significantly influence spin you would see those differences in robot testing.  

Edited October 19, 2023 by cnosil

[zengineer]

Is it the shaft or is it the person changing their swing because of the shaft?   It is like saying everyone hits a low launch shaft low; truth is they don’t all hit them low.   This is where the robot vs human discussion comes into play; change a shaft on a robot and they results will be pretty much the same.  Give a different shaft to a human and like you indicate the swing changes which causes the resulting spin change.  The “shafts don’t spin” is a play on words because it won’t work the same for everyone and if they did significantly influence spin you would see those differences in robot testing.  

A play on words is not generally a helpful thing in a technical discussion. Obviously, humans will swing certain clubs differently whether they intend to or realize they are. I didn't open or argue that topic.

My point is the very simple fact that a very flexible shaft will (for some combination of swing speed, profile, transition, or whatever else we want to measure) deliver the clubhead to the ball more, the same, or less lofted than it was at rest/address... compared to a very stiff shaft.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

Here are some helpful links for anyone that wants to do some reading and possibly learning.

Shaft myths article by Tom Wishon

https://www.golfwrx.com/6419/tom-wishon-talking-to-wrx-readers-10-myths-about-shafts-factual-info-about-shafts-to-help-you-all/
 

Two threads from a retired fitter in europe who has worked with high level golfers including pros. He has tons of data gathered over the years from his fittings, doing data collection and analysis and conducting various type of tests.

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1859352-spinner-shafts-for-wedges-by-howard-jones-the-8-iron-spinner-trick/
 

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1860305-shafts-when-to-change-and-when-to-tweak-lofts/

[Shapotomous]

I suppose the most accurate review of any golf equipment is to always include the phrase "for my swing" and then the observed result.

Robots dont play golf, people play golf.  Different shafts influence / result in different spin rates and ball flight for people when they swap them into the same clubhead. 

Does a robot have a quick or slow transition?  A smooth or jerked release?  Of course this is hyperbole, but why do we need to put a grip on a club?  Save some money since robot testing between using a grip and not using a grip result in the same ball flight. 

.

[cnosil]

42 minutes ago, zengineer said:

My point is the very simple fact that a very flexible shaft will (for some combination of swing speed, profile, transition, or whatever else we want to measure) deliver the clubhead to the ball more, the same, or less lofted than it was at rest/address... compared to a very stiff shaft.

 

You are correct and I don’t disagree, but there is also a combination of those things where it won’t matter and the results would be the same or the complete opposite.  We can’t definitively say this shaft will spin more or less than this shaft without looking at the swing and how the player reacts.  If it is specifically the shaft, you should be able to tell me based on the shaft I currently play a different shaft that will increase my spin by 1000 RPMs without seeing my swing.  I think you can only tell me it might increase spin based on past experience or the theory behind the shaft.  

 

25 minutes ago, Shapotomous said:

I suppose the most accurate review of any golf equipment is to always include the phrase "for my swing" and then the observed result.

Robots dont play golf, people play golf.  Different shafts influence / result in different spin rates and ball flight for people when they swap them into the same clubhead. 

Does a robot have a quick or slow transition?  A smooth or jerked release?  Of course this is hyperbole, but why do we need to put a grip on a club?  Save some money since robot testing between using a grip and not using a grip result in the same ball flight. 

Yep.  This is the human vs robot discussion and why I can’t tell you specifically what to play because it may work completely different for you.   Unless we match up  swing characteristics my high launch shaft may end up being low launch for you.  

[release]

On 10/14/2023 at 8:52 PM, Shlax said:

 

I informed the fitter that I wasn’t planning on buying anything but that I wanted to try a few shafts. As he basically had nothing better to do, he gladly let me hit a few shots. After a few swings and a quick discussion, he saw that I was a true gear nerd and that I knew what I was talking about so he put me through the whole deluxe +++ fitting experience for roughly an hour and a hal

If it were I.  I'd get that guy a lunch or refer him some business in the near future.

Understand that he sort-of volunteered to spend the time with you but, you get to experience a lot of the heads and shafts combinations without paying for his time.  You would not have been able to do all that without his presence.  Typically, they will not allow anyone to try out so many different combinations knowing that no fees were paid and no interest in buying anything.  An hour and a half should march you through the whole bag at a normal pace after the initial discussion.