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I really don't understand why folks are doling out another $200 to Arccos for the 'privilege' of not having their phones in their pockets.  I was an Arccos user for a year and just moved over to Shotscope v3.  Smaller tags, color screen watch with yardages, WAY better stat breakdowns, pin marking, option for manual putt mode, and for the same cost of just the Link. 

Arccos is really misguided by not just using a watch - they will never be able to give you yardages without using your phone.  Your lead wrist is right next to the sensors so it makes complete sense to take advantage of that by using a watch to talk to the tags and keep the tags much smaller.

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40 minutes ago, devsters said:

I really don't understand why folks are doling out another $200 to Arccos for the 'privilege' of not having their phones in their pockets.  I was an Arccos user for a year and just moved over to Shotscope v3.  Smaller tags, color screen watch with yardages, WAY better stat breakdowns, pin marking, option for manual putt mode, and for the same cost of just the Link. 

Arccos is really misguided by not just using a watch - they will never be able to give you yardages without using your phone.  Your lead wrist is right next to the sensors so it makes complete sense to take advantage of that by using a watch to talk to the tags and keep the tags much smaller.

A few things...
The link is $99, not $200.  Not sure what you're talking about with the "privilege" bit, as it's an alternative to having your phone in your pocket.  I've used Arccos for two years and prefer it by a large margin over my friends shotscope.  There are preferences, everyone is going to be different.  You liking one over the other doesn't mean one is better or not, it's just your perspective.  

In regard to Arcoss being misguided in the technology, what's your background?  Are you an engineer?  If it was a watch, I wouldn't wear it.  I don't wear watches.  It's all perspective, but I don't see what your intent was here, other than to craptalk a small company that is bringing something new and unique to the golf world.   

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45 minutes ago, devsters said:

I really don't understand why folks are doling out another $200 to Arccos for the 'privilege' of not having their phones in their pockets

For starters, Link is $100 ($80 if you pre-ordered I beleive). Secondly, plenty of users have pre-2020 tags that don't require an annual fee (like myself) and would appreciate the ability to listen to music or just simply not have to deal with the extra bulk of a phone. Toss in the fact that Link makes locating the pin (a feature that Arccos has had for a while within the app) easier, and why not? I'm not saying it's a great deal at $100, but Arccos is still top dog in terms of data and features. I've used both Shot Scope V2 and Game Golf devices in the past, but like Arccos the best - though my first experience with them was not great. 

Arccos understands that not everyone wants or needs a GPS watch and is providing users a myriad of ways to use their product - not just one. I don't think Arccos is misguided at all. I think they've realized they have a top-tier product (which is why OEMs are willing to partner with them), and are simply starting to price it as such. I'll be honest though, I'm not a fan of the new subscription model (at least not at the current price) and I don't know if I will stick with Arccos once my sensors are no longer any good. However, I purchased my sensors in the fall of 2019 and Arccos has committed to support the product for the entirety of its lifespan (approximately five years if I recall correctly).

So, until the time comes that I HAVE to replace my current Arccos sensors, a product like Link is at least intriguing and there's a decent chance I will buy one. When the time comes that I'm ready to replace, Shot Scope could very well be on V4 or V5 of its product and Arccos will have new offerings and/or possibly adjusted their subscription model.

I understand you may not have had a great experience with Arccos, but it's no different than any other piece of golf equipment you might purchase - if it doesn't work for you, it probably works for someone else.

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Fair enough.  Although I definitely take exception with Arccos being top dog with data.  I have both Arccos and Shotscope dashboards active and they frankly pale in comparison to Shotscope, other than some styling stuff SS needs to fix.  Where is Arccos' putting breakdown?  SS has % make and putts to hole out by distance, and % long/short.  You can also parse club performance by tee box vs. fairway vs. rough vs. bunkers, all that.  And you can see how you do on holes when you hit the fairway, miss right, miss left, etc.  I can't believe Arccos still doesnt have that stuff.

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27 minutes ago, the great spinks said:

A few things...
The link is $99, not $200.  Not sure what you're talking about with the "privilege" bit, as it's an alternative to having your phone in your pocket.  I've used Arccos for two years and prefer it by a large margin over my friends shotscope.  There are preferences, everyone is going to be different.  You liking one over the other doesn't mean one is better or not, it's just your perspective.  

In regard to Arcoss being misguided in the technology, what's your background?  Are you an engineer?  If it was a watch, I wouldn't wear it.  I don't wear watches.  It's all perspective, but I don't see what your intent was here, other than to craptalk a small company that is bringing something new and unique to the golf world.   

 

Arccos is a way bigger company than shotscope, it's ok they can handle criticism.  And I'm coming at this from a golfer's point of view - and one that likes to keep money in his pocket.  Although I do invest in software companies for a living.  It's actually amazing to me that Arccos has not improved their dashboard and data analysis at all over the last 2 years.  And their handicap breakdown by facet algorithm is definitely inaccurate as you can probably agree.  I've been adjusting every single shot to make sure it is perfectly placed for the last 12 months.  No Arccos, I don't chip like a 12 handicap and putt like a +2.

Are you looking forward to subscribing to Arccos forever next time you have to replace your sensors?  That's what's on the horizon and it's a shame.  I'm just disappointed with where they are going given their clout.

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13 minutes ago, devsters said:

Where is Arccos' putting breakdown?  SS has % make and putts to hole out by distance, and % long/short.  You can also parse club performance by tee box vs. fairway vs. rough vs. bunkers, all that. 

Nearly everything you just mentioned is in the web browser version of the Arccos dashboard if you just select which area of performance you want to look at.

The reason why I say Arccos is top dog has a lot more to do than what appears on the dashboard after your round. They have one of (if not the best) caddie features which takes into account not only how you and/or others have played a course, but weather conditions as well. They were the first to the table and are likely the best with Strokes Gained for any automated shot tracking/data collection system. They've also been around for a while and offer a variety of products as well as OEM integration with Ping and Cobra meaning the pure amount of data collected outpaces Shot Scope. I'm not claiming that Arccos is leaps and bounds ahead of Shot Scope, but they are ahead enough to make Shot Scope the current underdog.

We get it by now. You're unhappy with Arccos, but you asked a question and were provided answers. Let it rest. If you really want to have a discussion about the pros and cons of either product there are threads currently in existence for that.

 

 

Some other threads that may be of interest to you:

 

 

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I got the Arccos sensors as a gift and could never fully get used to having my phone in my pocket the whole time.  If I didn't make sure the phone was fully charged, or the app crashed, I would get half of a round of data only.  I'm not a watch guy, so hopefully this is a good option for me.   I really like the data I get from Arccos, so I'm hoping the Link works well and requires less post processing.  

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The stats are completely wrong.  Why the heck does Arccos say I've made 24 of 50 putts from 20-30 feet?  I like to think I'm a decent putter but my God that is insane.

And show me where you can see situational performance, like when you drive it into the rough, or when you pull out a 3 wood instead of driver off the tee.  It isn't there.  Neither are any stats on 2nd or 3rd putts because they dont track where you hit those from lol.

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20 hours ago, devsters said:

 

 

Are you looking forward to subscribing to Arccos forever next time you have to replace your sensors?  That's what's on the horizon and it's a shame.  I'm just disappointed with where they are going given their clout.

Why would I have to subscribe to Arccos forever?  I have the subscription for free now, but if I have to replace my sensors I'm ok with spending 100 a year.  I play an average of 50 rounds a year, that's two bucks a round.  To expect to have the service forever after paying for the hardware is a bit misguided in my opinion.  A few months back they went through a pretty big overhaul and added a lot of new features, I shouldn't expect for that to come without a price next to it.  Out of curiousity, how much money do you spend a year on golf rounds, balls, grips etc...  That $100 isn't that big of a hurdle to me.

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19 hours ago, devsters said:

And I can understand not being a watch guy - but really, you're a clip-thingy-on-your-belt guy?  Or just a huge-phone-in-your-pocket guy.

I've got the iphone/Wallet combo.  I went with a smaller phone but it's still bulky.  

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18 hours ago, Jc2 said:

For me, yeah.  I'm not going to notice something on my belt while I golf. 

 

Will it look dorky?  probably.  But I don't really care.  

To non golfers, we're all dorky.  It's basically if you care what other people at the clubhouse, pro shop and in your group think.  I already wear a big goofy Dahman style hat, so I clearly couldn't care less what others think. 

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2 hours ago, the great spinks said:

Why would I have to subscribe to Arccos forever?  I have the subscription for free now, but if I have to replace my sensors I'm ok with spending 100 a year.  I play an average of 50 rounds a year, that's two bucks a round.  To expect to have the service forever after paying for the hardware is a bit misguided in my opinion.  A few months back they went through a pretty big overhaul and added a lot of new features, I shouldn't expect for that to come without a price next to it.  Out of curiousity, how much money do you spend a year on golf rounds, balls, grips etc...  That $100 isn't that big of a hurdle to me.

They are moving to a subscription-only pricing model.  No more paying up front for hardware and getting software for free.

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On 7/17/2020 at 12:38 PM, devsters said:

They are moving to a subscription-only pricing model.  No more paying up front for hardware and getting software for free.

Gen 1 and 2 users are grandfathered in and do not pay the yearly subscription.  Still, I don't have an issue with 100 a year as long as they continue to innovate and improve.  

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3 minutes ago, the great spinks said:

Gen 1 and 2 users are grandfathered in and do not pay the yearly subscription.  Still, I don't have an issue with 100 a year as long as they continue to innovate and improve.  

Sure, if they were actually innovating.  Problem is, they haven't for the last 2 years.  Look at Shotscope's pace versus theirs.  There's really no excuse for Arccos to be slower to innovate.  They have way more resources.  

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I don't have either one of these, but looks like I need to run out a purchase one to get in on the fun. 😀

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So you don't like Arccos.  We get it.

I'm not going to wear a watch.  Just not going to do it.  I hate watches.  I have nothing against people who like and wear watches, I just hate them.  So Shotscope is a no-go for me.

I prefer the sensors in the grips.  Not a huge deal, but they do look a little cleaner.

I don't get hung up on the actual numbers in the facet handicaps.  They're more useful with regards to the direction of each part of your game.  And you can always look at Strokes Gained for each facet round-by-round.

The phone in the pocket doesn't bother me in the least.  I use an old iPhone 5s that one of my kids had.  Works fine, not big.  Will I get the Link?  Maybe.  Maybe not.  Still thinking about it.  But it's nice that it's an option.

I've steadily noticed enhancements in the app.  Nothing earth shattering, but it's moving ahead.  Have they probably put a ton of their focus into Link?  Yes.  Is it really late?  Yes.  

I'm also one of those who got in before the subscription.  Will I start paying for a subscription if forced?  Maybe.  And maybe I'll check out Foresight's no-sensor-required app.  If Shotscope didn't require that you wear the watch, I might check that out as well.  I've said before that the move to a subscription by Arccos gives people an incentive to make a change.  But it also gives them a revenue stream beyond hardware sales.  Will it work?  Time will tell.  Can Shotscope stay alive on hardware sales alone?  I'm not looking at the financials of either company.

Competition is a good thing, regardless.  The more companies in this market, the better.

 

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On 7/20/2020 at 11:08 AM, devsters said:

Sure, if they were actually innovating.  Problem is, they haven't for the last 2 years.  Look at Shotscope's pace versus theirs.  There's really no excuse for Arccos to be slower to innovate.  They have way more resources.  

When was the last time you used Arccos?  They had a pretty significant upgrade a few months back...  It's cool that you like Shotscope more than Arccos, but you're not being honest about Arccos and what they've been doing the past 6 or so months.  

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4 hours ago, the great spinks said:

When was the last time you used Arccos?  They had a pretty significant upgrade a few months back...  It's cool that you like Shotscope more than Arccos, but you're not being honest about Arccos and what they've been doing the past 6 or so months.  

I used it religiously for the last 12 months.  What did I miss?

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Has anyone who pre-ordered (... and been patiently waiting) gotten a shipping notification?

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ahhhh, I thought that was for new orders - that they would clear out the back log of those of us who put money down a year ago or more and star5 shipping those sooner. Oh well, waited this long, I can wait some more. 

Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels
Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft
3W  Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex
3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft
5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts
56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts
ER7  or Scotty Futura X - 35”

OnCore Elixr (lemon or lime)

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2 hours ago, WaffleHouseTour said:

ahhhh, I thought that was for new orders - that they would clear out the back log of those of us who put money down a year ago or more and star5 shipping those sooner. Oh well, waited this long, I can wait some more. 

It says on the product webpage: *Existing pre-orders currently being fulfilled. New orders now being accepted. Estimated ship date late-September 2020.* 

The way they phrased that kinda makes it sound like pre-orders might ship sooner, but it also looks like the estimated ship date could apply to both pre-orders and new orders... 🤷‍♂️

Maybe you'll get lucky?

Driver: :mizuno-small: ST190 9.5* Fujikura Atmos Blue 5S
Fairway Wood: :mizuno-small: ST190 15* Fujikura Atmos Blue 6S
Hybrid: :mizuno-small: CLK 17* Fujikura Speeder EVO HB
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I am still using the first generation of the arccos sensors, they still work great, and thus far this year I have not have any issues with their app, it has not drained the battery on my phone so much, nor it has crashed or failed to register any of my shots.

I also have not been asked to upgrade to a subscription and as far as I can tell I have not missed out compared to the subscription user.

I dont know if I will continue with them after this sensors are no longer working or will get a different technology.

Shot-scope seems interesting, although I dont like wearing a watch when I play, the arccos link is most definitely a contender to substitute having the phone in my pocket every shot.

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6 hours ago, TR1PTIK said:

It says on the product webpage: *Existing pre-orders currently being fulfilled. New orders now being accepted. Estimated ship date late-September 2020.* 

The way they phrased that kinda makes it sound like pre-orders might ship sooner, but it also looks like the estimated ship date could apply to both pre-orders and new orders... 🤷‍♂️

Maybe you'll get lucky?

Pre-orders are shipping now. Orders placed now won't be fulfilled until September.

Based on their FB page, they had a lot of pre-orders. People who ordered on day 1 are receiving their Link this week. People who ordered a week later still haven't even gotten the credit cards charged yet. 

I ordered a link last week as my phone requires me to remove the case and make sure I have it positioned a certain way in pocket for it to register shots. I'd prefer just to be able to leave it in my bag and not having to worry about dropping it because I'm constantly pulling it out of my pocket. 

I have gen 2 sensors I got at Christmas and I definitely don't like that they have changed over to a subscription model, but I figure I'm at least 3-4 years away from having to worry about that. Maybe in 5 years if I choose to buy replacement sensors as they start to die, but I acknowledge that at some point they are going to stop selling gen 2 sensors as replacements or so many of them will die it just won't be a smart idea to keep buying them. At that point, if nothing has changed with Arccos' business model, then I will have a decision to make on whether to pony up for the newest Arccos sensors or if Shot scope is still in business i can get their V5 or whatever they will be on by then. 

I would definitely be slightly concerned about the longevity of Shot Scope since they are the smaller company and don't have any alliances with the major golf manufacturers. I think it is a big deal that every club Cobra sells comes with Arccos sensors and I think a lot of people take advantage of getting the free completion kits to use for the rest of the bag. Once people see what it does, they are far more likely to continue to pay for it after the trial ends. Ping is probably headed in the same direction, the G710 already comes with Arccos sensors standard and I bet the replacement for the entire G410 line of products comes with them too when they are announced. 

I'm just not sure there are enough golfers out there willing to pay $200+ dollars for shot scope to support a company indefinitely. Their revenue does not scale with their user base and that could lead to problems down the road. 

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26 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

People who ordered on day 1 are receiving their Link this week. People who ordered a week later still haven't even gotten the credit cards charged yet. 

Hmmm.  Thanks for sharing.  I thought I'd ordered on Day 1 - but I haven't seen a credit card charge yet...

Walking ahead of my BagBoy QuadXL w Alphard eWheels
Driver: Callaway Mavrik SubZero 9* Neutral w stock Evenflow Riptide R flex shaft
3W  Titelist TS2 15* Draw w Tensei Blue R flex
3H, 4H Cobra One Length F9 Speedback hybrids (1”short) w Fujikura Atmos R flex shaft
5I-GW Cobra Forged TEC Black One Length (1”short, 2* flat) KBS 90 R flex shafts
56, 60 Cobra King MIM One Length Black (1” short) KBS HiRev2.0 125 S flex shafts
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42 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

I'm just not sure there are enough golfers out there willing to pay $200+ dollars for shot scope to support a company indefinitely. Their revenue does not scale with their user base and that could lead to problems down the road. 

I'm betting the number of golfers willing to pay $200 for many years of use is no smaller than the number willing to pay $100 every year, plus $100 for the Link.  Should be interesting how this all plays out but it really doesn't look like SS is in danger of going away.  If they ran out of cash they would be acquired at this point and we wouldn't notice any difference.  Both companies will have a place in the market.

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3 minutes ago, devsters said:

I'm betting the number of golfers willing to pay $200 for many years of use is no smaller than the number willing to pay $100 every year, plus $100 for the Link.  Should be interesting how this all plays out but it really doesn't look like SS is in danger of going away.  If they ran out of cash they would be acquired at this point and we wouldn't notice any difference.  Both companies will have a place in the market.

Maybe, but if you're shotscope, your business model is completely dependent on an ever growing demand for people willing to buy the technology. That probably just isn't the case as the numbers of golfers in the world is relatively static or declining. If there are 10 million people in the world willing to pay for this type of shot/data tracking then shot scope's scales would look something like this:

year 1 - 5 million units

year 2 - 2 million units

year 3 - 1 million units....... on and on. As you mentioned, there is no reason to purchase again after the initial purchase

That is declining revenue coming in the door while their overhead and user base is expanding. That can make it hard to sustain the business without constantly coming up with new hardware to sell to your existing customers. All the while, Arccos is putting their product in the hands of consumers who may not have otherwise been interested. If they can convert 2 out of 10 trial users, they have just expanded their market from 10 million to 12 million and are collecting $100 from 12 million people annually opposed to shot scope which would only collect on the initial purchase.

And let me be clear, I hate the subscription business model (from Arccos and every other company doing it) and I'm currently not paying for a subscription, but if I had to bet on which company will be around in 5 years, the odds on Arccos would be the favorite by a large margin over shotscope. Just look at what happened with game golf....

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