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Are OEM's beginning to shoot themselves in the foot with MSRPs?


caeye0710

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I certainly think they are off the rails and Im now to the point where unless I break a club, Im not upgrading anymore.  Im playing a 3 year old driver, 10 year old hybrid, 20 year old irons, a 3 year old wedge and a 15 year old putter.

Even then, I'll go on Ebay and go the used route.  For me, new equipment and uprading every few years or so just isnt worth the cost.

Im just not convinced that all the, "new tech" of the latest equipment makes any difference.  No matter what design the club has, its always been about hitting the center of the clubface.  No amount of tech is going to change that.

Edited by ZenGolfer

"I suppose its better to be a master of 7 than to be vaguely familiar with 14." - Chick Evans

Whats in my Sun Mountain 2.5+ stand bag?

Woods: Tommy Armour Atomic 10.5* 

Hybrid: Mizuno MP Fli-Hi 3H

Irons: Mizuno T-Zoid True 5, 7 and 9-irons

Wedge: Mizuno S18 54* and Top Flite chipper

Putter: Mizuno Bettinardi A-02

Ball: Maxfli Tour X

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  • 1 month later...

I use ebay, and local big box stores like pga or golf galaxy. I recently bought a Titleist VS3 head for $100 and bought a demo shaft, Mitsubishi CK Orange for $120. The pro shop guy gave me 3 adapters and the shaft had a brand new grip on it...$800 driver for $220. Not a bad deal. Reshafted/regripped my fairways and built my iron set similarly. Full retail pr.ice is for the rich guys, waiting for clubs is another issue...I got the driver head in less than a week from Japan (only place they were manufactured and sold).

@prilltx

Golf is challenging, R U doing the work...or hoping 4 different outcomes?

Titleist C16 irons

Vokey 55°, 60° wedges

Cleveland 50°, 46° wedges

Ping Sigma2 41 inch putter

Titleist D2 driver, 904 / 908 3 and 5 wood 

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On 8/22/2021 at 9:28 AM, ZenGolfer said:

No matter what design the club has, its always been about hitting the center of the clubface.  No amount of tech is going to change that.

 

... Respectfully it has never been about that. If it were, everyone would be successfully playing MB's. Golf is and always has been a game of how bad are your misses? Even Hogan said he hit one maybe two shots exactly like he wanted any given round. If you are a slicer off the tee, heel weighting can be a life saver. And since most miss the center of the face with regularity, finding the right club to help with your miss is why there are fittings from OEMs to expensive fitters that specialize in doing just that. 

Driver:     :taylormade-small:  Qi10 Max 10.5* ... Graphite Design AD-IZr
Fairway:  :cobra-small: Aerojet 3/5 ... Kai'li Blue 60R
Hybrids:  :ping-small:      430 Hybrid 22*... Steelfiber 780Hy 
                  :taylormade-small:  DHy #4 ... Diamana LTD 65r 
Irons:       :titleist-small:         '23 T200 5-Pw ... Steelfiber i95r
Wedges:  :taylormade-small: Vokey 50*/54*/58* ... Steelfiber i95r
Putter:     :EVNROLL:  Custom EV 5.1  33" 
Ball:           Maxfli     Maxfli Tour

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On 8/21/2021 at 12:42 PM, Beakbryce said:

2 words- callaway preowned

Not sure why all the OEM's don't do this. You get a consistent product at the level of "used" you are willing to pay.

I received several "like new" clubs that looked brand new for the wife and I at the beginning of the year because no one was trying clubs out at the retail stores last year due to Covid. The 6 hybrid is turning into one of the best clubs I have ever owned. If you really hawk the site, for hybrids and woods, that use the Optifit hosel, you can buy a ladies club and a mens shaft cheaper than buying the mens club to begin with. The heads are the same. If you ever decide to sell it, you can sell it as a mens or ladies club.

If it was a Gold rated club 2-3 years ago, it still is. The club is way better than the swing most of us put on it.

CPO and picking my spots to buy and sell on eBay have really paid off for me. I guarantee that I have been able to buy/sell/try so many different clubs this way and most times come out even unless I am adding a new club to my collection. I avoid accounts with no history/bad reviews etc and always message seller before buying and have bought and sold over 30 clubs. I am sure that if I do this a few hundred times, I will eventually have a bad experience with eBay (there is eBay money back guarantee) but CPO has amazing customer service and stand behind their stuff!

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Manufacturer's prices for materials may have increased...or not.  That is what they tell us.  And even if they did, wages have not increased at the same rate the they are increasing their prices.  Sooner or later that is going to catch up to them.  It may well come to the choice of being able to eat or buy new golf equipment.  Let me guess which one will win out.

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I bought a new set of clubs last year.  I went through two fittings, one indoor and one out on the course.  I will not spend the funds again that I did this time.  I work part time at a golf course so I did not pay full price or would not have bought them.  I did go on ebay and bought some stronger shafts and have had a great year lowering my handicap by a full shot at age 74.  I have told those who I play with, last set and will not back down on that. 

Titleist TS 1 Driver Stiff graphite shaft

Titleist  TS2 16.5 degree 3 wood Stiff graphite shaft

Titleist  TS2 18 degree 5 Wood Stiff graphite shaft

Titliest TS2--21 degree Hybrid stiff light weight graphite shafts

Titliest T200 regular multi-material graphite shafts 2 degrees flat 5 thru gap wedge

Titliest Volkey wedges 54 and 58 stiff multi-material graphite shafts 2 degrees flat

Scotty Cameron Newport 2 Trillium Te3 32" putter

 

 

 

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Yeah, supply and demand.

Today's newer equipment like Vokey wedges use new/rare/exotic materials like tungsten or triple coat for the slate blue finish.

The Titleist TSi drivers use ATI 425 Aerospace Titanium, not cheap or available.

So as club junkie ... super bargain or unicorn finder, I will wait for MGS or other reviews and wait until seasons' end or next for sales. 

I know with Covid, there currently isn't any new inventory (2020 or 2021) but there a ton of inventory from 2016 - 2019. In some club types there isn't much improvement from todays' new.

WITB 

TM M5 9(10.5) - Fujikura PRO 2.0 6R][ Titleist TS2 16.5(17.25) - Diamana Thump ][ Titleist 917F 21 - Diamana S+ 72

Titleist TSi2 5 (24) - Tensei Raw AV Blue 65 ][ Titleist 818H 27 - GD Tour AD DI 85

Mizuno MP-18 MMC 6 - PW, N.S. Pro MODUS3 Tour 120

Vega VW-06 52, 56, 60

Ping B60 and/or

Scotty Cameron STUDIO STAINLESS® LAGUNA 2.5 and/or 

Mizuno M-Craft V - 34" 

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On 8/12/2021 at 9:59 AM, caeye0710 said:

First time MGS poster here after spending years at another forum site, also a "Certified Club Junkie"

I was just going some research on the MG3 being released early next month. IMO, what a sharp looking wedge! I've admittedly been a Vokey guy my entire life, so doubt I'll be making a move considering my SM8's are waiting for their first round (just swapped new ones in after a year with my first set of SM8). 

While looking at the MSRP for the new MG3 ($179 for stock options), it got me thinking: Are OEM's going completely off the rails with prices on new equipment?

I don't remember which model it was, but I remember that I could walk in to a shop and get three new wedges for $327 plus tax ($109 MSRP). It's gotten to the point where buying three new TM wedges would be $578 after tax here in NC (NEARLY $600!).

Let me add to that by saying: I understand. Over time, costs related to materials and shipping increase. One can argue that even production costs increase, although as a Process Improvement Consultant in the Manufacturing industry for close to a decade, I don't know if that rings true as much as we think it does due to the automation process nowadays (although I'll admit there has to be some merit to it). Doesn't mean I'm an expert in the Behind-The-Scenes production of golf equipment, but a lot of my clients have remained stagnant in their production process over the years due to robotics and automation processes, so I would think it would ring somewhat true to golf equipment OEMs.

Back to the topic: Are we getting to a point where it's going to eventually be too expensive to get the latest and greatest equipment? In 2004, Drivers hit a $500 MSRP for the first time (TM R7, Titleist 905 Series, etc.). The R7 was the first driver to be listed at $500 (I think) and I recall people throwing a fit. Titleist quickly followed suit on the 905 series, although I specifically remember our Titleist rep at my club back then mentioned that the initial MSRP was going to be $409 until TM came to market and announced the R7 at a higher price point.

 Nowadays, $550+ is the norm. Over 17 years that difference doesn't add up to much, but what happens in another 15 years?

Stock drivers listed at $800?

Stock FW's at $500?

Iron sets off the rack at $2,000?

Wedges at $200 a piece?

Putters (too many variables here honestly, but let's say $400 average)

That means if you want to revamp an entire bag, you'll be dropping somewhere in the neighborhood of $4,300 if you stick to stock options and don't get fitted for upgraded shafts and specs.

Maybe I'm just completely off base here and my opinion is wrong, but I'd be curious to here what some of you folks think. 

Feel free to roast me if I sound like an idiot 😆

 

I agree, but I suspect part of the problem is smaller volume [due to lesser demand] making gear more expensive. I would say multi-piece clubhead design adds a lot, but would that really apply to wedges?  

I know that people disagree with me, but I see golf gradually reverting to an elitist game again.  With what 150 acres could go for in house lots, keeping a golf course there is an expensive proposition in itself.

Louisville Golf Persimmon___2, 4, 5, 7-woods;    Epon AF-906___driving iron;   Titleist T100 5, 6, 7, 8, 9-irons; 

Titleist T100S___48°;     Edison 2.0___53º;     Titleist SM-9 (T)___58º;   Tad Moore Otto Hackbarth___putter;   

Titleist Pro V1x___ball

 

 

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Prices are dictated by supply and demand but there is no denying that club makers are earning near record earnings. The recent price increases has certainly exceeded cost increases from shipping and manufacturing. I don't think the whole concept that MSRP should follow inflation logic because it completely ignores changes in competition, technology, and manufacturing efficiencies. Companies like Golfworks and Hireko selling clubs for a 1/3rd and DTC companies selling for around 50 - 60% of major OEMs is proof that the cost increases don't really have anything to do with manufacturing costs. Yes, manufacturing and shipping is certainly higher but it's not the biggest reason for prices increases.

The biggest reason prices are going up is demand. The pandemic caused a demand shock that the industry hasn't seen in a long time if ever and they are going to take advantage. Plus, people seem to be more blinded by brands than ever before. With social media and what not, I think the average person has become much more focused on what brand they have than anything else. Look at the droves of people that by Nike these days, it's absolutely nuts. I see videos of people saying that they are starting a shoe collection standing in an effing Footlocker, but I digress. One big thing in golf is that without brands, many things go away. The big OEMs sponsor a lot of things and DTC companies really do threaten the margins that lubricate the golf equipment industry. If Maltby can make a good hollow-head iron and sell it for $50, I have a hard time believing that OEMs are actually spending millions and millions on technology. If anything, it's all about the looks. Heck, Golfworks has even gone as far as developing new manufacturing techniques for golf clubs that didn't exist before and they don't sell their clubs at excessive prices. 

I always feel like I get flamed for calling out major OEMs as overpriced for what you get but I think it's true. I'm not saying that they make bad stuff but dang, it's like all things golf industry are absolutely against any form of value. Sub70 and Hogan seem to be about the only non major OEMs to get any form of love. Maltby and Hireko get absolutely trashed for no reason. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 9/27/2021 at 3:03 PM, Kansas King said:

Prices are dictated by supply and demand but there is no denying that club makers are earning near record earnings. The recent price increases has certainly exceeded cost increases from shipping and manufacturing. I don't think the whole concept that MSRP should follow inflation logic because it completely ignores changes in competition, technology, and manufacturing efficiencies. Companies like Golfworks and Hireko selling clubs for a 1/3rd and DTC companies selling for around 50 - 60% of major OEMs is proof that the cost increases don't really have anything to do with manufacturing costs. Yes, manufacturing and shipping is certainly higher but it's not the biggest reason for prices increases.

The biggest reason prices are going up is demand. The pandemic caused a demand shock that the industry hasn't seen in a long time if ever and they are going to take advantage. Plus, people seem to be more blinded by brands than ever before. With social media and what not, I think the average person has become much more focused on what brand they have than anything else. Look at the droves of people that by Nike these days, it's absolutely nuts. I see videos of people saying that they are starting a shoe collection standing in an effing Footlocker, but I digress. One big thing in golf is that without brands, many things go away. The big OEMs sponsor a lot of things and DTC companies really do threaten the margins that lubricate the golf equipment industry. If Maltby can make a good hollow-head iron and sell it for $50, I have a hard time believing that OEMs are actually spending millions and millions on technology. If anything, it's all about the looks. Heck, Golfworks has even gone as far as developing new manufacturing techniques for golf clubs that didn't exist before and they don't sell their clubs at excessive prices. 

I always feel like I get flamed for calling out major OEMs as overpriced for what you get but I think it's true. I'm not saying that they make bad stuff but dang, it's like all things golf industry are absolutely against any form of value. Sub70 and Hogan seem to be about the only non major OEMs to get any form of love. Maltby and Hireko get absolutely trashed for no reason. 

I agree. What this means down the road is that in 2-3 years, when other forms of entertainment have returned and golf will be to hard, to time consuming, to everything, those pandemic clubs will hit the used club market. What will then be the effect on club makers with respect to new clubs at that point is anyone's guess. 

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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On 9/24/2021 at 1:48 PM, Riverboat said:

Seems to me that for every golfer with some common sense trying to keep costs down, I meet two or three others who can't wait to brag about how much they dropped on their latest toy or set of toys. As long as this is the attitude of so many golfers, there will be no reason for companies to worry about jacking up prices. Americans love conspicuous consumption and showing off their status symbols. 

I agree with this. Most of my buddies ended up buying Epic woods and Steelhead irons to replace their then current clubs. They tried mine and buying from Callaway preowned was so simple. We have one buddy who is left handed and has to have the newest clubs. He restrains himself from buying until they are are on the preowned site, but rapid trade ins and purchases seem to happen every month. He can't wait to tell everyone of his newest deal. Long term, he has probably spent 3 or 4 times what the rest of us have invested. Another had to have PXG. Even with the military discount, he spent more than I will in 5 years.

But, everyone is happy. I'm happy because the clubs perform when I do. They are happy because they perceive a difference every time they invest in new equipment. 

Driver: Callaway Epic 9 degree, stiff (set at 10 degrees with the movable weight in the center}

FW: Callaway Epic 3,5, heaven wood w/ regular shaft (driver shaft in 3 wood, 3 wood shaft in 5 wood, 5 wood shaft in heaven wood, all three set at neutral plus 1 degree)

Hybrids: Callaway BB19 4,6,7 (4 set at neutral plus 1 degree and 6 and 7 set at neutral minus 1 degree for gapping purposes)

Irons: Callaway Rogue ST Max 8, 9, PW 

Wedges: Titleist Vokey SM6 50,54,58

Ball: Titleist Pro V1, 1X, Vice Pro Plus or anything I find that day and try out for the fun of it (I haven't bought balls with my own money in at least 10 years)

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On 8/12/2021 at 8:59 AM, caeye0710 said:

Back to the topic: Are we getting to a point where it's going to eventually be too expensive to get the latest and greatest equipment? In 2004, Drivers hit a $500 MSRP for the first time (TM R7, Titleist 905 Series, etc.). The R7 was the first driver to be listed at $500 (I think) and I recall people throwing a fit. Titleist quickly followed suit on the 905 series, although I specifically remember our Titleist rep at my club back then mentioned that the initial MSRP was going to be $409 until TM came to market and announced the R7 at a higher price point.


I'm late to this party, but what else is new?  LOL

The first $500 driver was Callaway's Great Big Bertha, in 1995.  The next year, Ram debuted a $1,000 driver.  Which didn't do especially well.  Could have been the death knell for the company.

Golf club prices have been going up, and in the COVID World Order for golf, used equipment prices have gone up quite a bit as well.  One of the interesting side effects of this upward trend in pricing is an increase in the viability of the component world.  For years, the flood of used gear had folks pulling back from components, instead buying any number of models from the preceding few years.  

Time will tell if this trend continues.

It's also opened up the market for the DTC concept.  The new (again) Hogan, Sub70, New Level, Haywood, and who knows how many others, are climbing in to that niche.

Again, time will tell.  <shrug>

A couple of posts have made mention of the CPI Inflation Calculator.  I'll add another example....  a set of late 60s MacGregor VIPs, run thru the Inflation calculator, would cost somewhere in the $1600+ range in today's dollars.

I admit it doesn't make me jump at the chance for a set of new Pings with Steelfibers.  LOL
 

Driver: TM Original One 11.5* set to 11*, Aldila NV75 X, 43.5" -or- SpeedZone, HZRDUS Black 75 6.5, 43.5"
3w:  Cobra King LTD, RIP Beta 90, 42" -or- Stage 2 Tour, NV105 X, 42.5"
2h or 3h:  TaylorMade Stage 2 Tour, Aldila NV105 S -or- RIP Alpha 105 S
Irons:  3-PW Mizuno MP37, Recoil Proto 125 F4 (reshaft in progress, slowly); 1i & 3-PW Golden Ram TW276, NV105 S; 2-PW Golden Ram TW282, RIP Tour 115 R
GW: Dynacraft Dual Milled CNC 52*, Steelfiber 125 S; Scratch 8620 DS 53*, Steelfiber 125 S
SW:  Ram TG-898 56*, DGX ss2x; Ram Tom Watson 55*, DGX ss2x; Wilson Staff PMP 58*, DGS; PM Grind 19 58*, stock shaft
Putter:  Snake Eyes Viper Tour Sv1, 34"; Ping Scottsdale TR Craz-E, 35"; Cleveland Huntington Beach 1, 35"
Ball:  Wilson Staff Duo Professional, Bridgestone Tour B-RXS, Callaway Chrome Soft

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