MGS Sourced Ball Fitting - you decide

[Thin2win]

Talk about starting over again... I don't know what I have done, I blame Superspeed, Cinnamon Chex, 2022 and getting old. But after testing all of November/December to find the ball that gave me the highest spin with a driver... I woke up in January and added 1500 rpm of back spin. I've spent the last 2 weeks trying to figure out what I did... but for whatever reason and for the first time in 5 years.... I have too much spin. All the sudden I'm getting 3900 with the CSX LS, 4000 with CSX, 3300 BXS... so I'm going back to my first results and trying to now use the balls that gave me the lowest spin. Because... a new year a new problem. haha. I have tested the new 2022 CSX and CSX LS, also the Srixon ZStar Diamond. I am going to try and find a Wilson Triad this week but yeah.. kinda starting over with the 2022 versions of golf balls. 

On a separate note, playing golf with 3k+ backspin on the driver leads to some longer approach shots, but a lot more balls in the fairway. As far as Foresight golf is concerned, my sim handicap has dropped to 0. So, higher spin isn't awful, just very unexpected. 

[GregGarner]

Oooh, interesting!! Are you presenting a lot of (dynamic) loft now?? I used to have a flip at impact and needed a low-loft, low-spin driver just to get something playable. A year and change post swing-change and now I'm 2 degrees higher loft in my driver with as much weight in the back as I can get. OnCore Vero X1, ProV1, and Srixon Z-Star are now knuckleballs if I'm not careful...

[Thin2win]

12 minutes ago, greggarner said:

Oooh, interesting!! Are you presenting a lot of (dynamic) loft now?? I used to have a flip at impact and needed a low-loft, low-spin driver just to get something playable. A year and change post swing-change and now I'm 2 degrees higher loft in my driver with as much weight in the back as I can get. OnCore Vero X1, ProV1, and Srixon Z-Star are now knuckleballs if I'm not careful...

I honestly think most of it is impact location. My AoA has been constant at ~3° up. Club head speed has gone up a little, but I wouldn't think 5mph would give me those results. My swing path has gotten more neutral, so maybe a more centered strike with a more neutral path is doing it? Instead of a more I-O path with a more toe strike? Whatever the cause, I'm not hitting it bad, just with more spin then I have ever had. 

[GregGarner]

20 hours ago, Thin2win said:

so maybe a more centered strike... I'm not hitting it bad, just with more spin then I have ever had. 

if there's anything I've learned about my game in the past couple years, it's that you can absolutely still make solid contact while flipping  Flipping just means you're delivering a lot of dynamic loft, but AoA and impact location can still look like they're ideal. (If anything, I had a better AoA on my driver when I was a flipper, usually about positive 6 degrees vs 2-3 degrees now.) 

I was listening to an episode of the Hack it Out podcast and Lou talked about when he was scratch, he had to play daily or else he'd lose his timing because he's a flipper. This was exactly my experience and the main reason I decided to make a significant swing change, even as a 1 handicap. I could shoot 66 or 96 and it was totally related to how my timing was on that particular day. 

All that being said, if your dynamic loft is less than, say, 20 degrees with a driver, then totally disregard. I was presenting about 23 degrees using an 8-degree driver!  

[Thin2win]

22 minutes ago, greggarner said:

if there's anything I've learned about my game in the past couple years, it's that you can absolutely still make solid contact while flipping  Flipping just means you're delivering a lot of dynamic loft, but AoA and impact location can still look like they're ideal. (If anything, I had a better AoA on my driver when I was a flipper, usually about positive 6 degrees vs 2-3 degrees now.) 

I was listening to an episode of the Hack it Out podcast and Lou talked about when he was scratch, he had to play daily or else he'd lose his timing because he's a flipper. This was exactly my experience and the main reason I decided to make a significant swing change, even as a 1 handicap. I could shoot 66 or 96 and it was totally related to how my timing was on that particular day. 

All that being said, if your dynamic loft is less than, say, 20 degrees with a driver, then totally disregard. I was presenting about 23 degrees using an 8-degree driver!  

Its something, that is for sure  currently using a 12.5° driver, with average of 3° up on the AoA and my launch angle is in the 12-14° range, but it can dip down to the 9-11° range on a low hit. 

[Thin2win]

[GregGarner]

I think you could game any of the three and not really notice any difference on-course (at least off the driver). If you make me choose, drop the Diamond and then flip a coin between the other two. I think the Diamond's trajectory is just a little too low and when you mix that with the low-spin knuckleball, you're probably going to have some that just fall out of the sky and go nowhere, some 30 yards short of your good strikes

[Thin2win]

30 minutes ago, greggarner said:

I think you could game any of the three and not really notice any difference on-course (at least off the driver). If you make me choose, drop the Diamond and then flip a coin between the other two. I think the Diamond's trajectory is just a little too low and when you mix that with the low-spin knuckleball, you're probably going to have some that just fall out of the sky and go nowhere, some 30 yards short of your good strikes

I'm really conflicted by the Z Star Diamond. 

With driver, it launches a little low and tends to spin a little more then I want. But on irons and wedges, it is spectacular. Also feels the best of the 3 on putts. 

It would not be my choice for a long drive contest. But on a tight fairway, that low launch high spin cut its pretty good at finding me a fairway. But as you noted, if I double cross it is really punitive. Aiming left then pulling a duck hook.. Yeah. But that is purely user error. 

 

[GregGarner]

1 hour ago, Thin2win said:

I'm really conflicted by the Z Star Diamond. 

With driver, it launches a little low and tends to spin a little more then I want. But on irons and wedges, it is spectacular. Also feels the best of the 3 on putts. 

It would not be my choice for a long drive contest. But on a tight fairway, that low launch high spin cut its pretty good at finding me a fairway. But as you noted, if I double cross it is really punitive. Aiming left then pulling a duck hook.. Yeah. But that is purely user error. 

 

I'm also a proponent of getting a ball fitting first and then fitting the rest of your set to that, especially driver. If the Diamond is best in every other area of your game, it might be time to look at your driver specs. I had to do this recently because I have been playing a high-spin, 4-piece ball forever and finally decided that I was getting punished too often on great iron and wedge strikes that were ripping back too far. My distance control has always been pretty good, so suddenly/unexpectedly having a shot rip back 10 yards (not feet... yards) was a real problem.

Most 3-piece balls are lower-spin, but it meant that suddenly my driver, which was tuned to ~2200 spin with the 4-piece ball, wasn't getting to 2200 unless it was a low strike. (In testing the Vero X1, a promising low-spin 4-piece design, I had several high-toe strikes that were under 1000 rpm...)

If you're testing with the SIM2 Max in your sig, I'm not sure what more you'd be able to do, though. If it was solely spin that was the issue, I'd say loft down to ~11 (which, bonus, introduces a slightly open face) but that won't help with launch and might exacerbate some of the heely cuts. I suppose you'd have to decide if you want the two-way miss with a 60-yard dispersion or the one-way miss with a 60-yard dispersion (i.e. it's going right, it's just a matter of how far right)

[Thin2win]

4 hours ago, greggarner said:

If you're testing with the SIM2 Max in your sig, I'm not sure what more you'd be able to do, though.

yeah, I am. so a 12.5° head with a 3° AoA and I only get 11° of launch.... I need to learn how to swing apparently as I must de-loft my driver in a way few people can.

[Thin2win]

[Thin2win]

I'm going to close this out and announce a winner, and the lessons I learned.

First, the winner:

The Srixon Z-Star*.

The reason the Z-star wins? I really like the divide color option. From a performance standpoint the Maxfli Tour and the Srixon Z-Star are basically the same ball. And the ProV1 and BXS are similar. For my current golf swing, this was the group of balls that gave me the best overall results. If I was shopping on price, the Maxfli Tour would be my ball. But since I'm allowed to set my own criteria, The Divide color scheme is the winning option.

The Z-Star Diamond would have been my choice if it came in the Divide, so if that happens down the road, I'd switch to it. It was a straight stand out in partial wedges, full wedges and iron shots. It hit every launch metric that I want and was truly the class of the field. On driver, I liked the higher launch, didn't love the higher spin. The carry end up being about the same as the Z-Star but the roll out suffers as it has a steeper descent angle and more spin. But that said, even giving up a little on the roll out, I'd absolutely game it, if it came in any color other then white.

Through this test, I didn't find a "bad" ball. I found some that didn't work well for me but would absolutely work for others. And also realized how little the difference is between balls sometimes.  Here are my notes/takeaways:

1) more or less

ProV1 = BXS = Z-Star = Maxfli Tour = Snell MTB. 

ProV1x = TP5x = ChromeSoft X LS = Vice Pro = Z-Star XV = Snell Mtb-X.

2) the Z-Star Diamond and the Chrome Soft XLS are very similar. TM, Titleist, Bridgestone don't have anything like them. They are Mid to high Launch and Mid Spin on the driver with very high ball speeds. With irons they are also mid-high launch and lots of spin. The absolute longest drives I hit in all of testing were with these two, but that was the anomaly with them. There were a few drives that I hit them sub 2k spin and got over 265y carry and 290y after roll... that is a big hit for me with my ~100 mph SS. The ball speeds on these two were frequently 1-2 MPH faster then anything else. If you are on the lower spin end of the spectrum and find that the ProV1 doesn't stay in the air for you, these might be your jam.

3) The TP5 is odd that it doesn't fit in with the ProV1 group at all. Significantly more spin off the driver and really is an outlier of a ball. It isn't Kirkland V2 spin, but its just a different spin profile then anything else I tested.

4) if you really need more spin off your driver, Chrome Soft X is probably the best ball out there. The Kirkland V2 adds even more spin to that mix and for my wife, these two are hands down the best 2 balls for her. She didn't go through the 2000+ shots that I did, but I was able to pretty quickly fit her after going through all this. She was playing the Vice Pro Soft and was getting ~150y carry with her driver, these two balls got that carry up to 160y without any other change. So for the lower SS, lower spin player I think these two are remarkably good. I'm also guessing there is a niche they fill in the higher SS group as well.

5) Driver spin: Lowest Prov1 ~2000rpm. Highest Kirkland V2 ~3000k  The spin chart was a definite bell curve. If you are in the middle... you can probably play about 70% of these balls and not see too much difference. But I'd still recommend playing the same one consistently.

6) there isn't a unicorn winning golf ball that is just the best at everything.

 

[fixyurdivot]

On 2/27/2022 at 10:24 AM, greggarner said:

I'm also a proponent of getting a ball fitting first and then fitting the rest of your set to that, especially driver.

Meh. Lot's more efficient and cost effective to find a decent price on balls and adjust your swing to fit them .  

 

37 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

I'm going to close this out and announce a winner, and the lessons I learned.

First, the winner:

The Srixon Z-Star*.

The reason the Z-star wins? I really like the divide color option. From a performance standpoint the Maxfli Tour and the Srixon Z-Star are basically the same ball. And the ProV1 and BXS are similar. For my current golf swing, this was the group of balls that gave me the best overall results. If I was shopping on price, the Maxfli Tour would be my ball. But since I'm allowed to set my own criteria, The Divide color scheme is the winning option.

The Z-Star Diamond would have been my choice if it came in the Divide, so if that happens down the road, I'd switch to it. It was a straight stand out in partial wedges, full wedges and iron shots. It hit every launch metric that I want and was truly the class of the field. On driver, I liked the higher launch, didn't love the higher spin. The carry end up being about the same as the Z-Star but the roll out suffers as it has a steeper descent angle and more spin. But that said, even giving up a little on the roll out, I'd absolutely game it, if it came in any color other then white.

Through this test, I didn't find a "bad" ball. I found some that didn't work well for me but would absolutely work for others. And also realized how little the difference is between balls sometimes.  Here are my notes/takeaways:

1) more or less

ProV1 = BXS = Z-Star = Maxfli Tour = Snell MTB. 

ProV1x = TP5x = ChromeSoft X LS = Vice Pro = Z-Star XV = Snell Mtb-X.

2) the Z-Star Diamond and the Chrome Soft XLS are very similar. TM, Titleist, Bridgestone don't have anything like them. They are Mid to high Launch and Mid Spin on the driver with very high ball speeds. With irons they are also mid-high launch and lots of spin. The absolute longest drives I hit in all of testing were with these two, but that was the anomaly with them. There were a few drives that I hit them sub 2k spin and got over 265y carry and 290y after roll... that is a big hit for me with my ~100 mph SS. The ball speeds on these two were frequently 1-2 MPH faster then anything else. If you are on the lower spin end of the spectrum and find that the ProV1 doesn't stay in the air for you, these might be your jam.

3) The TP5 is odd that it doesn't fit in with the ProV1 group at all. Significantly more spin off the driver and really is an outlier of a ball. It isn't Kirkland V2 spin, but its just a different spin profile then anything else I tested.

4) if you really need more spin off your driver, Chrome Soft X is probably the best ball out there. The Kirkland V2 adds even more spin to that mix and for my wife, these two are hands down the best 2 balls for her. She didn't go through the 2000+ shots that I did, but I was able to pretty quickly fit her after going through all this. She was playing the Vice Pro Soft and was getting ~150y carry with her driver, these two balls got that carry up to 160y without any other change. So for the lower SS, lower spin player I think these two are remarkably good. I'm also guessing there is a niche they fill in the higher SS group as well.

5) Driver spin: Lowest Prov1 ~2000rpm. Highest Kirkland V2 ~3000k  The spin chart was a definite bell curve. If you are in the middle... you can probably play about 70% of these balls and not see too much difference. But I'd still recommend playing the same one consistently.

6) there isn't a unicorn winning golf ball that is just the best at everything.

 

Great review an thanks for the effort you put into this.  It was a good test of the test so to speak.  Maybe we can do a ball fitting at the nee studio when I head over for the 2022 PNW Spy Meet-up. I'm certain you'll be amazed at how I can make a Velocity perform like 70% of the other balls .

[cnosil]

53 minutes ago, Thin2win said:

I'm going to close this out and announce a winner, and the lessons I learned.

 

Just like on MGS articles someone needs to provide the negative comments:

I really think you should do this test using my driver and swing speed so I can see what would work best for me.  

 

seriously,  lots of great information in this thread. 

[Thin2win]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Maybe we can do a ball fitting at the nee studio when I head over for the 2022 PNW Spy Meet-up. I'm certain you'll be amazed at how I can make a Velocity perform like 70% of the other balls .

Absolutely, I wont even make you hit 2000 shots. And honestly, if the short game part of the Velocity doesn't bother you... its a good ball, you aren't giving up anything off the driver with it, that's for sure. Just never play it when it is wet out.

53 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Just like on MGS articles someone needs to provide the negative comments:

I really think you should do this test using my driver and swing speed so I can see what would work best for me.  

seriously,  lots of great information in this thread. 

Yeah yeah yeah. I know you have the Virginia beach hitting club close to you, but if you want to fly to Spokane, you are more then welcome to my guest room, that has a hitting bay and sim attached to it and can test all you want.

I thought I would provide more data at the end, but once I was testing balls all in the same category... the numbers were all statistically the same. I remember one set from last week, 15 shots with the Maxfli Tour and the Z-Star. Both averaged 2204 RPM backspin with my driver, .5y difference in peak height, same decent angle, same launch angle, same ball speed....  On irons they were both within the std dev of the other in every stat, so for me they are the same ball.

 

Also, @greggarner @Londo I still have to mail you balls, lots of balls. Now that this is over I'll be getting you a full sample platter coming your way. If anyone else wants a sample platter, please just let me know.

[Londo]

12 hours ago, Thin2win said:

1) more or less

ProV1 = BXS = Z-Star = Maxfli Tour = Snell MTB. 

ProV1x = TP5x = ChromeSoft X LS = Vice Pro = Z-Star XV = Snell Mtb-X.

 

This was great to follow along during the "offseason" and more than happy to help contribute to your testing! Obviously everyone is different but it was pretty eye opening to see really similar performance in the balls above with your consistency. Very kind to send a sample platter, look forward to doing some of my own testing with much less consistency haha

[GregGarner]

14 hours ago, Thin2win said:

I'm going to close this out and announce a winner, and the lessons I learned

I think we should petition to get this moved to the Hall of Fame. I nominate @Londoto deliver your introductory speech.

[Berg Ryman]

A great thread T2W, excellent data, good commentary and above all, a realistic and truthful outcome!

[Londo]

On 3/10/2022 at 9:29 AM, greggarner said:

I think we should petition to get this moved to the Hall of Fame. I nominate @Londoto deliver your introductory speech.

Today, we are here to honor a thread unlike any other on MGS. This thread made us laugh... cry... pull our hair out in frustration trying to tease out the tiniest of differences between golf balls (Greg). But most of all, this thread was a super entertaining offseason journey. We came as golfing strangers and leave as better informed golfers and friends. I would like to thank @Thin2win for volunteering to hit thousands of golf shots and posting it online for us, even on Thanksgiving. I would also like to thank.... wait... 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

@Thin2win great work on all the testing. You probably have some serious muscle memory with all those golf swings. I have been following your journey with a prediction of what your top 4 would be in the end. I did get 3 out of 4. I didn't have the Srixon in the mix but had the TP5. After my testing of the Maxfli Tours in the Official Balll Test I switched to them. Glad they made it to your "A" list. 

Once again great work.

[Thin2win]

23 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

@Thin2win great work on all the testing. You probably have some serious muscle memory with all those golf swings. I have been following your journey with a prediction of what your top 4 would be in the end. I did get 3 out of 4. I didn't have the Srixon in the mix but had the TP5. After my testing of the Maxfli Tours in the Official Balll Test I switched to them. Glad they made it to your "A" list. 

Once again great work.

Thanks for following along! The TP5 is just an odd ball in terms of where its spin profile puts it. While the tp5x is similar to the prov1x, the tp5 is I much closer to the chrome soft x. 

The Maxfli is a great ball, really impressive. 

[Thin2win]

Got to play actual golf today! Actual grass, actual rain, actual tees, like the full real deal. I played 9 with the Z Star divide and 9 with the Z Star Diamond. 

They are both good, real world... The Diamond is special. But I love the divide color. I'm torn. I think on days with little wind I'll play the diamond, on days with wind I'll play the divide. 

My first approach shot of the day landed about 2' short of the pin, bounced up, hit the stick and dropped to 3". Both balls held their lines great and stopped where they landed. The diamond feels more explosive off the tee. 

[fixyurdivot]

On 3/12/2022 at 10:31 AM, Thin2win said:

Thanks for following along! The TP5 is just an odd ball in terms of where its spin profile puts it. While the tp5x is similar to the prov1x, the tp5 is I much closer to the chrome soft x. 

The Maxfli is a great ball, really impressive. 

So I have no spin data to support my comments here but I've played the TP5 and Maxfli Tour my last 5 rounds (switch at the turn) and I'm not seeing any excessive spin issue with the TM.  For me they are in the "throw a hat over them" bucket.  My next test is going to be one of those and a Velocity.  Clearly my game does not bring out the subtleties between balls... maybe I need to use a Mojo? 

[Thin2win]

20 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

So I have no spin data to support my comments here but I've played the TP5 and Maxfli Tour my last 5 rounds (switch at the turn) and I'm not seeing any excessive spin issue with the TM.  For me they are in the "throw a hat over them" bucket.  My next test is going to be one of those and a Velocity.  Clearly my game does not bring out the subtleties between balls... maybe I need to use a Mojo? 

Once you are back north I'll get you fit

[GregGarner]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

So I have no spin data to support my comments here but I've played the TP5 and Maxfli Tour my last 5 rounds (switch at the turn) and I'm not seeing any excessive spin issue with the TM.  For me they are in the "throw a hat over them" bucket.  My next test is going to be one of those and a Velocity.  Clearly my game does not bring out the subtleties between balls... maybe I need to use a Mojo? 

Orrrrr maybe you need to buy another 4 doz TP5??

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, greggarner said:

Orrrrr maybe you need to buy another 4 doz TP5??

Send me an offer I can't refuse .

[dlow206]

i looked in my supply cabinet and had golf balls that i didn't know i had even bought

[dlow206]

You want to test these?

 

[Thin2win]

I used to play the rzn one. I remember reading a story that when Nike left the golf business, Rory got every rzn ball he could get so he had them to play for years, I liked them. 

[fixyurdivot]

Chris, how about testing some bottom shelf balls (the ~$20/dozen options) to each other and how they compare to your finalists? 

TM Distance and Rocketballz

Bridgestone e6 and e12

Wilson Fifty Elite and Duo Soft

Pinnacle Rush

Srixon Soft Feel

Callaway Supersoft and Warbird