Monte Scheinblum- No Turn Cast - Does it make sense?

[Wildthing]

Another point to note:

Jon Sinclair said the following:

"As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension."

I am assuming that lead forearm supination is being used to close the clubface whether or not the golfer's wrist is in extension or flexion , therefore later in the swing means the clubhead is moving quicker.  Therefore, can one assume that if the golfer whose wrist is bowed will have to supinate his lead forearm quicker before impact to square the clubface?  If that is the case , then I must assume that having a flexed/bowed wrist introduces a more difficult clubface squaring timing element into the swing mechanics.

Edited May 28, 2023 by Wildthing

[Parshooter36]

I like this a lot and will continue to work on it.  I hit some absolutely beautiful shots when properly executed, but have also had some real wonky mishits that I am not use to.  I only got out for 1 round this weekend and got off to a terrible start with 3 double bogies right off the bat.  I settled down after that and shot even par on the back on a course I had only played twice before.  I have absolutely no business shooting par on a course like that, so I give all the credit to this swing thought.

[Goober]

For wild thing. I think all this data you post is great for improving the game. But my question to you would be? What was the medium age of this study. Height of the golfer; weight etc. The data is very valuable. But how would you translate this over for a senior golfer. Or a young junior golfer or female? Or an over weight or underweight golfer. Or a an extreme short golfer or a very tall golfer? Or a golfer with shorter or longer arms? 
 

Would like to know how these numbers would have to fluctuate with those scenarios ?

In architecture or engineering numbers have to be very precise. But in a physical movement motor function one would think the numbers would be harder to calculate 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Goober

[Wildthing]

2 hours ago, Goober said:

For wild thing. I think all this data you post is great for improving the game. But my question to you would be? What was the medium age of this study. Height of the golfer; weight etc. The data is very valuable. But how would you translate this over for a senior golfer. Or a young junior golfer or female? Or an over weight or underweight golfer. Or a an extreme short golfer or a very tall golfer? Or a golfer with shorter or longer arms? 
 

Would like to know how these numbers would have to fluctuate with those scenarios ?

In architecture or engineering numbers have to be very precise. But in a physical movement motor function one would think the numbers would be harder to calculate 

The graphs are from Jon Sinclair's database containing the 3D data for pga pros and showing what their wrists do . I am assuming Monte and other instructors are using that information to guide their instruction towards an average.  How they tweak their instruction and guidance to take account of body characteristics, age and range of motion is unbeknown to me. 

Mike Adams/EA Tischler/Terry Rowles  might have a database that covers what you ask but I don't suspect it's open for public scrutiny.  The Jon Sinclair full wrist information is made available but at a price of $149 .

https://www.sinclairgolf.com/Pro-Shop/Product/video-club-membership

PS.  I cannot say whether this data is great for improving ones game but the accuracy of the data can be questioned because of the low frequency of the AMM3D system they used. So one cannot discern in any detail what the wrists are doing 10 inches before and after impact. Therefore, teaching golfers to use the motorcycle move and rapidly extend their wrists through impact might be incorrect and not mirror what PGA pros are doing (the devil will be in the detail). When one does some simple maths , the lead wrist does not seem to be rapidly extending through impact.  With regards Monte's NTC concept, an early cast does not seem advantageous to optimise clubhead speed at impact. 

Edited May 31, 2023 by Wildthing

[Goober]

Great response. Would love to see a graph if (example) amateur A increased so and so angle. Than this happens. And so on so on 

[Mediocre Golfer]

This is a very interesting thread and a lot to digest. I’d appreciate a little help in clarifying what is meant by “horizontal hinge release.” Thanks.

[MacTourney]

A lot to digest might be an understatement, and for some too much to even consider, count me keeping warm near the latter campground fire.     Many folks have a general idea of what is meant by horizontal hinge release, especially the yellow book disciples, but I have no doubt @Wildthing will be with you shortly as he loves this kind of stuff. 

Edited June 23, 2023 by MacTourney

[Wildthing]

On 6/23/2023 at 4:35 PM, Mediocre Golfer said:

This is a very interesting thread and a lot to digest. I’d appreciate a little help in clarifying what is meant by “horizontal hinge release.” Thanks.

It's mentioned in TGM Homer Kelley book (which I haven't read and don't plan to ) but look at website below which explains it better:

http://www.theswingengineer.com/hinge_action.html

http://www.theswingengineer.com/horizontal_hinge_action.html

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Wildthing

[Mediocre Golfer]

@Wildthing Thank you! An interesting discussion but I think the human-machine analogy can only go so far. 

[Wildthing]

6 hours ago, Mediocre Golfer said:

@Wildthing Thank you! An interesting discussion but I think the human-machine analogy can only go so far. 

I'm not advocating swinging like a machine and I basically use an external focus type technique .

Although there are a few things that I try to instil in my swinging action:

1. Perpetual motion 

2. Intact left forearm flying wedge (that isn't something that Homer Kelley ever defined)

3.  Try to keep the clubhead tracing the 'swing plane line'.

4. Flat left wrist through impact'

5. Try to feel that my swing matches the picture of my intended task.

 

Edited June 29, 2023 by Wildthing

[JOgolfer]

I have only recently dipped my toe into the NTC swing but so far am encouraged by what I'm seeing/feeling. Have not viewed the vid where the whole "cast to 8:00" and "Cast A/Cast B" is explained in detail, but so far what I'm doing is along the following lines in lay terms: set the wrists in the backswing, at the top I sort of re-route the club by flattening/shallowing the shaft and dropping the clubhead behind me, almost as if I'm layng the club down on a table, then I begin to re-center (not consciously, and without deliberate hip slide or thrust) by moving weight to my left leg; it just happens, then I cast the club (release/unhinge the right wrist) pretty much from the top, and finally just keep my back to the target (shoulders closed) and let the downswing fly through. The feel is somewhat akin to a sidearm/underhand baseball pitcher. Seems to work pretty well (so far), but does it sound roughly right or am I way off?

Further question: does grip strength, ball position (forward vs. back) or stance (open vs. closed) make much difference if emplying NTC? Are there preferred choices among these?

Finally, at one time Monte was a big advocate of "right shoulder to the ball." Does that remain relevant to NTC or is it basically superseded?

 

Thanks.

J.O.

  

[cksurfdude]

On 7/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

finally just keep my back to the target (shoulders closed) and let the downswing fly through

Recently attended my third in person Monte clinic; really learned a lot this time.

At the clinics he gives each student their own individual, single swing key to help them overcome the "bad" tendencies that are blocking them from making a "good" swing.

I'm not good enough to even try to answer all your questions...

I can only relate *my own* experience, and only because if I'm reading your description right it seems to parallel my own.

And fwiw that last part of back to target and swing the arms down kinda summarizes my swing key.

So, yes, I *think* you're on the right track... ..but your best resource is a video check-in with Monte.

Good luck with your improvements!!

 

[NM01]

On 7/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

sort of re-route the club by flattening/shallowing the shaft and dropping the clubhead behind me, almost as if I'm layng the club down on a table, then I begin to re-center (not consciously, and without deliberate hip slide or thrust)

Recentering should happen before anything with the club in transition. You should be 50/50 sometime after club parallel and before the top of the backswing and should be 70/30 on lead side at the top of the backswing. Won’t comment on what you are doing with the club without seeing a video, it sounds something similar to what Bradley Hughes has for one of his drills but don’t want to make the that assumption.

On 7/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

then I cast the club (release/unhinge the right wrist) pretty much from the top, and finally just keep my back to the target

Again don’t want to assume anything here but the order and what you are tryin I do don’t make sense. The casting or unhinging needs to be felt/done at the top in transition even though in reality it happens later in the swing, but because if how little time there is in the backswing if you wait it won’t happen when it’s supposed.

On 7/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

The feel is somewhat akin to a sidearm/underhand baseball pitcher. Seems to work pretty well (so far), but does it sound roughly right or am I way off?

Not going to say you are way off or not without video but if you are going to use the ntc approach I would watch all the videos in the series and follow them and not try to do your own thing per se

On 7/19/2023 at 8:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

Further question: does grip strength, ball position (forward vs. back) or stance (open vs. closed) make much difference if emplying NTC? Are there preferred choices among these?

Grip strength has a role in the golf swing regardless of doing a one plane swing, stack and tilt or any other philosophy.

ball position is key in all swings and having the ball in the wrong spot will lead to some kind of compensation in the swing to hit the ball. Stance isn’t as important. It alters the swing path and for many they open or close the stance depending on whether they want to try and draw or fade the ball rather than start manipulating the path and face some other way.

 

[vandyland]

On 7/19/2023 at 7:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

Further question: does grip strength, ball position (forward vs. back) or stance (open vs. closed) make much difference if emplying NTC? Are there preferred choices among these?

Knowing Monte, I think the answer to this question would be "some." I doubt he would suggest an open stance as that steepens the shaft (all things equal). I asked him at the clinic about stance and unless there is a physical limitation, setting up square seems to be preferable. He plays his short irons from the middle and then his longer irons forward of that. 

[Goober]

I have a long term golfing buddy who has fought a bent left arm in his backswing and transition. For decades now. Teacher after teacher hasn’t really had s solution for him. And he has been to some big name teachers thru thru the years. I wonder if the NTC would be up his alley. Or broom force. He needs width but can’t grasp how to do it with a ball in front of him 

[NM01]

3 hours ago, Goober said:

I have a long term golfing buddy who has fought a bent left arm in his backswing and transition. For decades now. Teacher after teacher hasn’t really had s solution for him. And he has been to some big name teachers thru thru the years. I wonder if the NTC would be up his alley. Or broom force. He needs width but can’t grasp how to do it with a ball in front of him 

How bent is the left arm. Most pros actually have a slight bend in the backswing and not actually straight like it might look or is said needs to be.

then there are some that have it at impact because of their swing and matchups.

Instead of trying to fix a symptom figure out the cause. 
 

Could those videos help him, sure but there could be something in the fundamentals that are causing it.

 

[Kenny B]

On 7/19/2023 at 5:27 PM, JOgolfer said:

I have only recently dipped my toe into the NTC swing but so far am encouraged by what I'm seeing/feeling. Have not viewed the vid where the whole "cast to 8:00" and "Cast A/Cast B" is explained in detail, but so far what I'm doing is along the following lines in lay terms: set the wrists in the backswing, at the top I sort of re-route the club by flattening/shallowing the shaft and dropping the clubhead behind me, almost as if I'm layng the club down on a table, then I begin to re-center (not consciously, and without deliberate hip slide or thrust) by moving weight to my left leg; it just happens, then I cast the club (release/unhinge the right wrist) pretty much from the top, and finally just keep my back to the target (shoulders closed) and let the downswing fly through. The feel is somewhat akin to a sidearm/underhand baseball pitcher. Seems to work pretty well (so far), but does it sound roughly right or am I way off?

Further question: does grip strength, ball position (forward vs. back) or stance (open vs. closed) make much difference if emplying NTC? Are there preferred choices among these?

Finally, at one time Monte was a big advocate of "right shoulder to the ball." Does that remain relevant to NTC or is it basically superseded?

 

Thanks.

J.O.

Welcome to the forums J.O.  I have been to 3 Monte clinics and have all of his videos.  I'm trying to understand what you are doing with the NTC if you haven't viewed the cast to 8 o'clock (Cast A) and through to the target (Cast B).  You set the wrists in the backswing... like in the video with No Turn... or as you have been doing it before?  If you aren't following Monte's video when you "shallow", you may not be in the correct position and sequencing correctly.  No way to tell without a video.  Monte talks about setup to the ball in his Efficient Swing Video.

To your final question... Monte would say Yes.  After Cast A the swing is just a rotate through the ball (Cast B) and the right shoulder should feel like going toward the ball.

[chisag]

On 5/27/2023 at 1:37 PM, cnosil said:

As are most of us.  Some want more detail and correlation and why based on the quoted statement you nor I can answer the OPs questions. 

 

... Not to take away from the topic, because there is obviously value in the thirst for knowledge and for those that can go down the rabbit hole without be sidetracked by the Mad Hatter or the White Rabbit, I salute you. I have alway felt most "proper swing" instruction is geared toward athletes in good shape that have both the physical skill and mental aptitude to pursue a model swing. The trouble in paradise is most that play the game do not fall into that category, a lesson I learned pretty quickly in my teaching days.

... There are just soooooo many different ways to successfully hit a golf ball without being fundamentally sound. It just depends on if you are looking to go from shooting 100 to the upper 80's or 100 to the low 70's. If Raymond Floyd showed up for a lesson saying he has been struggling with his ball striking the first thing almost every instructor would say is "Your takeaway is so flat and under the plane you have no chance of recovery with your downswing. It really is a death move." And for a golfer struggling with poor contact and erratic shots they would be 100% correct. Doing so with Floyd would have destroyed a very technically flawed but Hall Of Fame golf swing. 

... But golfers come in all shapes, sizes and abilities. Most just want to do what they already do, just better. I would never attempt to dissuade any player from trying to build a fundamentally sound swing IF they have the time, the inclination and the ability to do so. But give me an overweight golfer, with poor flexibility that never played another sport battling a weak slice with a flawed swing and if I can turn his swing into a stronger power fade with some of the flaws reduced and into a repeatable swing ... most would be ecstatic with those results. 

... You simply cannot teach many golfers with a video demonstrating correct movements. The major issue is everyone isn't doing what they feel like they are doing. Even the Pro's. This leads to most need someone else watching and instructing in person to accomplish what they are trying to do because more often than not, it is another flaw that has them in the position to begin with. Very similar to a Dr just giving out medication to cure a symptom without addressing the cause. But what you can do in a video is cover some basics that can help someone not interested in turning into Adam Scott but interested in better contact and perhaps address a common flaw. Instructors like Monty are very good at this and their videos are quite valuable to a wide range of players. But he isn't for everyone anymore than "biomechanical theory perspective which also includes detailed anatomical descriptions" is for everyone. Putting Racing Tires on a Prius won't turn it into an Indy Car. 

.... But always fun and interesting to discuss all the different ways people attack this game both mentally and physically. 

[Goober]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

How bent is the left arm. Most pros actually have a slight bend in the backswing and not actually straight like it might look or is said needs to be.

then there are some that have it at impact because of their swing and matchups.

Instead of trying to fix a symptom figure out the cause. 
 

Could those videos help him, sure but there could be something in the fundamentals that are causing it.

 

He has it bad Ricky. In the backswing and transition. Then bad impact positions. It’s one of those extremely long term faults he grooved. His entire motion is one big compensation. Works very hard at the game. But just spinning his wheels getting no where

[NM01]

Just now, Goober said:

He has it bad Ricky. In the backswing and transition. Then bad impact positions. It’s one of those extremely long term faults he grooved. His entire motion is one big compensation. Works very hard at the game. But just spinning his wheels getting no where

Has to get to basic fundamentals of square setup and correct balance, proper grip.

Im also guessing he spends little to no time doing slow motion drills and slow motion swings. It takes lots of time and work to break motor patterns.

The ntc and broom force assume that the fundamentals are in a good spot.

Starting with Monte’s grip and fundamentals videos which are free and then the effecient swing might be a better start than ntc or broom force.

another option would be a virtual lesson with Monte 

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

2 hours ago, chisag said:

... You simply cannot teach many golfers with a video demonstrating correct movements. The major issue is everyone isn't doing what they feel like they are doing. Even the Pro's. This leads to most need someone else watching and instructing in person to accomplish what they are trying to do because more often than not, it is another flaw that has them in the position to begin with. Very similar to a Dr just giving out medication to cure a symptom without addressing the cause. But what you can do in a video is cover some basics that can help someone not interested in turning into Adam Scott but interested in better contact and perhaps address a common flaw. Instructors like Monty are very good at this and their videos are quite valuable to a wide range of players. But he isn't for everyone anymore than "biomechanical theory perspective which also includes detailed anatomical descriptions" is for everyone. Putting Racing Tires on a Prius won't turn it into an Indy Car. 

Totally. That got me down a rabbit hole. Luckily my coach got me back on track. 

[cnosil]

14 hours ago, chisag said:

 Putting Racing Tires on a Prius won't turn it into an Indy Car. 
 

It takes a little more than tires and probably not an indy car, but you can make it into a nice race car. 

 

[JOgolfer]

Thanks KennyB. I did buy the NTC video and I'm comfortable that my No Turn and Cast A are consistent with it. Where I was falling down was Cast B. I was taking my hands on the downswing too far out toward the ball, resulting in shanks, thins, what have you. Cast B (and Monte's "two ball" shank drill) taught me that the downswing needs to be more down the line, with hands closer to the body and right shoulder going to the ball and just rifling down the target line. After that, no shanks, no thins, just nice high straight balls or slight draws.

[Hook DeLoft]

On 5/27/2023 at 6:51 PM, Wildthing said:

This is Jon  Sinclair's email reply to me  and I have highlighted and underlined a few statements. 

Unless I've misinterpreted, he seems to be agreeing with what Dr Jeff Mann theorised , that palmar flexion closes the clubface when the lead wrist is in radial deviation but then opens it when moving in the ulnar deviation direction approaching impact.

---------------------------------------------------------

"The wrist are very complexed. You have to look at both to really determine how the club is being manipulated.

First of all, a position in and of itself neither opens or closes the club face. So these players having flexed lead wrist does not mean they have closed the club. The grip has a lot to do with what is happening as well.

As a very general rule a player with a lot of flexion in their wrist at the top will actually start closing the club face later than one with a lot of extension. I am talking about world class players here. After club transition flexed players will tend to move toward extension a bit before going hard back to flexion.

I cannot think of a player off the top of my head that does not have less supination at impact than when they started. This is a tricky measurement though. AMM does not do the shoulder girdles so that can alter it some.

Moving toward flexion closes the club face at the top but then acts and opens it at impact. Pronation/Supination takes the in and out of plane until you get more ulnar deviation then lead supination/ trail pronation closes it.

I would need to do a complete study but I would doubt highly that there is less or more forearm movement in a flexed wrist over a extended one. If you are talking about higher or lower ROC I would also say that is a myth. It is what people want to believe. It fits nicely with a narrative."

-------------------------------------------------------------

My experience has been that a bowed wrist at the top of the swing results in my having an open club face at impact and a cupped wrist at the top usually results in a closed face at impact.  I can't explain it.  Perhaps an unconscious attempt to square the club face on the way down results in over doing it.

[JOgolfer]

As requested some videos. Any comments appreciated.
My self-diagnoses: left arm rides a little low below the shoulder line in backswing; hands at P6 (in face on view) are not quite where they need to be (on right thigh).

All three shots on these videos were pretty decent, but am hoping to do better.

Thanks.

J.O.IMG_176

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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OV  

 

[JOgolfer]

apolgies if duplicates

[Kenny B]

MONTE is Live on Instagram today at 5pm Pacific time.

Monte will talk about the concepts behind the No Turn Cast video and answer your questions!

His NTC video is 40% off with coupon NTLIVE at checkout.

[cnosil]

23 hours ago, Kenny B said:

MONTE is Live on Instagram today at 5pm Pacific time.

Monte will talk about the concepts behind the No Turn Cast video and answer your questions!

His NTC video is 40% off with coupon NTLIVE at checkout.

Watched the video on Instagram this morning.  Per comments will be on his YouTube channel sometime.  Lots of good information and some practice/swing tips included in the 1 hour discussion.  It will definitely give you a good feel for what monte’s instruction is like.    

 

https://www.instagram.com/p/Cxt174QxGeS/

dont  reed an account to watch  

 

[JOgolfer]

Here to report my progress with NTC. Finally figured out how to properly execute Cast A and it has made a world of difference. I don't think I was doing it quite right before. To perform it correctly I learned to just exaggerate the move, laying the club down behind and away from me (flexing left wrist, extending right, and ulnar deviating) as if laying the club down on a countertop. Then I just keep my back to the target a bit longer, a la Justin Rose drill, and get the left shoulder off the chin early and quickly in downswing toward the target. I pured about 20 range balls in a row without a single miss (then quit while I was ahead). Can't wait to take it to the course. Oh, and I also do the "No turn" part of the backswing, vertically hinging the wrists from the get go.

Monte's a genius.

[Wildthing]

It doesn't make sense to me from a physics sense but if it works for you, that's fine.

The reason it doesn't make sense from a physics perspective is demonstrated in this video by Dr Sasho Mackenzie (one of the world's renowned golf biomechanics scientist). 

Check out 02:51 - 6:00 and whether you understand what effect an early cast would have on your clubhead speed by impact?

https://vimeo.com/158419250

An early cast reduces the 'Moment Arm' distance which means less torque and less angular acceleration of the club.