What slope is your home course?

[Rearviewmirror]

I've been thinking a fair bit about travelling handicaps recently, and also about how the slope/rating of your home course affects how well your game travels to other courses.

Obviously for elite amateurs rating will factor in more than slope, but I would be very interested to hear what slope people are playing as their "home" course. I'm thinking about joining a course where the tees I would likely play most often are 69.3/119 and wondering if that's a hair low to get to a representative handicap that travels well. My "most played" course which is very easy to get to is sadly only a 112 which means I need to break 80 to see any big handicap shifts.

[tony@CIC]

30 minutes ago, Rearviewmirror said:

I've been thinking a fair bit about travelling handicaps recently, and also about how the slope/rating of your home course affects how well your game travels to other courses.

Obviously for elite amateurs rating will factor in more than slope, but I would be very interested to hear what slope people are playing as their "home" course. I'm thinking about joining a course where the tees I would likely play most often are 69.3/119 and wondering if that's a hair low to get to a representative handicap that travels well. My "most played" course which is very easy to get to is sadly only a 112 which means I need to break 80 to see any big handicap shifts.

Is the 119 from the tips and the 112 as well? If not, why not just move back a tee box. At my current 'home' course we have 6 tee boxes - the middle one is 112 (5,700 yds.) but for the more adventuresome you could play from the tips at 134. Interestingly, my previous 'home' course back in Ohio, the tee box for roughly the same distance (roughly 5,600 yds.) was rated at 123.  The primary difference? In the latter at 123, you better bring a pretty fine short game.  Personally, I don't think there's much difference between 112 and 119 other then a minor improvement vs. big shifts in handicap for the same score. 

 

[Rearviewmirror]

1 minute ago, tony@CIC said:

Is the 119 from the tips and the 112 as well? If not, why not just move back a tee box. At my current 'home' course we have 6 tee boxes - the middle one is 112 (5,700 yds.) but for the more adventuresome you could play from the tips at 134. Interestingly, my previous 'home' course back in Ohio, the tee box for roughly the same distance (roughly 5,600 yds.) was rated at 123.  The primary difference? In the latter at 123, you better bring a pretty fine short game.  Personally, I don't think there's much difference between 112 and 119 other then a minor improvement vs. big shifts in handicap for the same score. 

For the 112 course I'm playing it from the tips (it's only 6,500) and while the scorecard claims it is 115, GHIN thinks differently.

The course I'm thinking of joining (119 from the yellow tees) is 124 from the tips, but a pretty healthy 7,000 from the tips and 6,700 yds from the black tees. That includes some pretty strong forced carries (250yd carry to hit the fairway). 

Wind is a major factor on both courses and can be 2-3 clubs at times (and rarely seems to show up in the PCC).

[GolfSpy_BNG]

Maybe I’m overthinking this but isn’t the point of a handicap to travel between courses and level the playing field?  Therefore the course handicap changes for each course and allows you to play different courses and expect a similar net score. 
 

Perhaps I’m not following correctly?

[Rearviewmirror]

2 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BNG said:

Maybe I’m overthinking this but isn’t the point of a handicap to travel between courses and level the playing field?  Therefore the course handicap changes for each course and allows you to play different courses and expect a similar net score. 

Perhaps I’m not following correctly?

I guess yes and no In terms of handicap intent, most definitely! I guess I meant more, is there a sort of minimum viable slope wherein you will actually be able to shoot in the ballpark of your expected score.

For example, the relatively easy course that is my closest (the 112) has extremely generous fairways, and very typical out/back routing where many of the holes have neighboring fairways on either side. As a result, I often see extremely wild players playing from neighboring fairways and could probably quite easily maintain a half decent handicap. By contrast, the 119 slope course has tight tree-lined parkland hole design, forced carries, OB, and elevated greens that are relatively fast and often have severe break.

So I guess it's more a question of skill measurement. If I drop two players at Spyglass, one who has a 10 handicap on a 115 course, and the other has a 10 handicap on a 130 course, who is going to have the "better" day? I would hazard a guess it'll be the 130 slope player every time, but that may be wrong. 

My goal is to develop a well rounded golf game, and a realistic non-vanity/sandbagged handicap. Unlike roughly 2/3 of the golfers I play with I also hole everything out, don't take gimmes/mulligans, and count all penalties.

[Rob Person]

Slope ratings are dependent on your tee box selection here.

 

Edited September 8 by Rob Person

[tony@CIC]

42 minutes ago, Rearviewmirror said:

So I guess it's more a question of skill measurement. If I drop two players at Spyglass, one who has a 10 handicap on a 115 course, and the other has a 10 handicap on a 130 course, who is going to have the "better" day? I would hazard a guess it'll be the 130 slope player every time, but that may be wrong. 

My goal is to develop a well rounded golf game, and a realistic non-vanity/sandbagged handicap. Unlike roughly 2/3 of the golfers I play with I also hole everything out, don't take gimmes/mulligans, and count all penalties.

Theoretically true but keep in mind the human factor both in the rating of the course and the player. At 77 I'm not the longest driver and may need an extra shot off of the fairway BUT put a wedge or putter in my hands and I'll compensate for the extra fairway shot. 

My opinion is that you need to pick a course that'll challenge or help you improve all aspects of your game vs just looking at the slope rating. 

A couple of side notes: PCC? I've never had an adjustment even playing in extreme conditions. Maybe it's just me but cold very windy Lake Erie weather, or 25-30 kt. onshore Gulf breezes here in Fl and no adjustment. 

Secondly, have you asked why there's a difference between the scorecard and the GHIN? One generally feeds into the other. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

1 hour ago, Rearviewmirror said:

I guess yes and no In terms of handicap intent, most definitely! I guess I meant more, is there a sort of minimum viable slope wherein you will actually be able to shoot in the ballpark of your expected score.

For example, the relatively easy course that is my closest (the 112) has extremely generous fairways, and very typical out/back routing where many of the holes have neighboring fairways on either side. As a result, I often see extremely wild players playing from neighboring fairways and could probably quite easily maintain a half decent handicap. By contrast, the 119 slope course has tight tree-lined parkland hole design, forced carries, OB, and elevated greens that are relatively fast and often have severe break.

So I guess it's more a question of skill measurement. If I drop two players at Spyglass, one who has a 10 handicap on a 115 course, and the other has a 10 handicap on a 130 course, who is going to have the "better" day? I would hazard a guess it'll be the 130 slope player every time, but that may be wrong. 

My goal is to develop a well rounded golf game, and a realistic non-vanity/sandbagged handicap. Unlike roughly 2/3 of the golfers I play with I also hole everything out, don't take gimmes/mulligans, and count all penalties.

you would need to also include course rating in this imo. 
 

Also need to clarify that statement of both being 10 handicaps. Is that course handicap or just handicap?  There are also a ton of factors that go into how well a golfer will score at a course.  A 10 cap that is a great driver but has an iffy short game will score quite different than a 10 cap that isn’t great off the tee but is up and down within 50 yards depending on course layout. 
 

As mentioned picking a course that will challenge your short comings may be the best bet to help lower the handicap and round out your game. 

[Rearviewmirror]

19 minutes ago, tony@CIC said:

Theoretically true but keep in mind the human factor both in the rating of the course and the player. At 77 I'm not the longest driver and may need an extra shot off of the fairway BUT put a wedge or putter in my hands and I'll compensate for the extra fairway shot. 

My opinion is that you need to pick a course that'll challenge or help you improve all aspects of your game vs just looking at the slope rating. 

A couple of side notes: PCC? I've never had an adjustment even playing in extreme conditions. Maybe it's just me but cold very windy Lake Erie weather, or 25-30 kt. onshore Gulf breezes here in Fl and no adjustment. 

Secondly, have you asked why there's a difference between the scorecard and the GHIN? One generally feeds into the other. 

The course was rated in 2019 and there have been quite a few changes. Unfortunately it's not due to be re-rated until 2029. I have typically seen PCC -1 (playing one stroke easier). Of rounds I've submitted to GHIN this year (21) I have seen three PCC changes - two -1 and one +1. I totally agree in terms of game improvement, and part of me is considering joining this course because I think it's a well rounded test of golfing ability. 

4 minutes ago, GolfSpy_BNG said:

you would need to also include course rating in this imo. 
 

Also need to clarify that statement of both being 10 handicaps. Is that course handicap or just handicap?  There are also a ton of factors that go into how well a golfer will score at a course.  A 10 cap that is a great driver but has an iffy short game will score quite different than a 10 cap that isn’t great off the tee but is up and down within 50 yards depending on course layout. 
 

As mentioned picking a course that will challenge your short comings may be the best bet to help lower the handicap and round out your game. 

My understanding is that course rating gives information primarily related to scratch and better golfer performance. For my 10 cap example, I meant their GHIN handicap of 10 (which would mean they would share the same course handicap on a travelling course). I totally agree on the different player profiles, I was more wondering about the impact of "easier" home course on travelling golf. 

[GolfSpy_BNG]

1 hour ago, Rearviewmirror said:

The course was rated in 2019 and there have been quite a few changes. Unfortunately it's not due to be re-rated until 2029. I have typically seen PCC -1 (playing one stroke easier). Of rounds I've submitted to GHIN this year (21) I have seen three PCC changes - two -1 and one +1. I totally agree in terms of game improvement, and part of me is considering joining this course because I think it's a well rounded test of golfing ability. 

My understanding is that course rating gives information primarily related to scratch and better golfer performance. For my 10 cap example, I meant their GHIN handicap of 10 (which would mean they would share the same course handicap on a travelling course). I totally agree on the different player profiles, I was more wondering about the impact of "easier" home course on travelling golf. 

This isn’t entirely true. The course handicap will change for both 10 GHIN depending on course rating and slope.  If one is playing harder tees their handicap may in fact be higher for said course.   It’s why your handicap is calculated using both.  
 

From my understanding the course rating is what you’d expect a scratch golfer to score on that course. Therefore a 10 cap on a 72/113 will be different on a course at 68/107. This is the reason that even though I normally score around even to +4 on my home course (68/107) but my handicap would officially be closer to a 7-8 roughly if I carried one. 

[Josh Parker]

1 hour ago, Rearviewmirror said:

My understanding is that course rating gives information primarily related to scratch and better golfer performance. For my 10 cap example, I meant their GHIN handicap of 10 (which would mean they would share the same course handicap on a travelling course). I totally agree on the different player profiles, I was more wondering about the impact of "easier" home course on travelling golf. 

I mentioned this on a thread somewhere in here the other day.  I think the rating/slope depends on factors like @GolfSpy_BNGmentioned, but if you are playing a course for the first time, you will probably score quite a bit higher. 

Now after a few rounds and getting to know the danger spots, your score should get lower and closer to the GHIN. 

As for the impact....I dont think an "easier" course necessarily hurts or helps.  That's all dependent on your individual game. Are you great at scrambling, great off the tee... too many factors. 

[tony@CIC]

Just to add one more element to the handicap discussion - remember a GHIN handicap is the potential vs what you'll typically score. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

134

[RetiredBoomer]

Slope 119

Course rating 68.8

Not sure where this is on the scale because I hardly ever play anyplace else anymore.

The course opened in 1906 and stretches out to 6016 yards from the tips.

The course was closed for two years and completely restored to the original Donald Ross design
except for the greens
which were deliberately made easier to hit,
easier to hold,
and easier to putt
in order the make the course a little faster to play for the aging membership.

 

[JDHolmes]

Three home courses here. 106, 109, 112 from mens tees. I carry a 6.3 today.

Two weeks ago I played TPC of Mrtle Beach which is 149 slope. I shot 79 with 7 strokes, or par.

I do play away, out of the community at least once a week. I find my index travels well despite home courses being lower slope. What is not taken into account in slope calculations is the difficulty of greens and slopes on the greens. None of our courses here have a straight putt anywhere (outside of 2') and we have no water. Most courses I've played, despite having higher slopes have easier to much easier greens.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, JDHolmes said:

 What is not taken into account in slope calculations is the difficulty of greens and slopes on the greens. 
 

I don't think that is correct.  From the desciption in the USGA guidelines:  

https://www.usga.org/content/usga/home-page/handicapping/roh/Content/rules/Appendix G Golf Course CourseRatingSlopeRating.htm

 

The Course Rating and Slope Rating is the evaluation of the playing difficulty of the course for the scratch player and the bogey player under normal playing conditions. The effective playing length is determined from the measurement of each hole, adjusted for the impact of roll, wind, elevation changes, altitude, dog-legs and forced lay ups. In addition to the effective playing length, there are 10 obstacle factors evaluated on each hole for both the scratch player and the bogey player. These are: topography; fairway; green target; recoverability and rough; bunkers; crossing obstacles; lateral obstacles; trees; green surface and psychology. The Course Rating System uses table values, adjustments and formulas to calculate ratings.