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Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?


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Here's a better video discussing the ground reaction forces, the timing of the peaks in some kinetic sequence (Horizontal, Torque, Vertical) and also some tweaks one can do to try and modify the timing.

 

Will be interesting to see some more recent videos of pros with their new Swing Catalyst dual plates which measure the ground reaction forces for each foot rather than the net effect in these graphs.

I can also appreciate what  IONEPUTT posted before when he said

"I can also see how it could cause some major problems in consistency"

For example, maybe too much 'lateral/torque/vertical' grfs (and even too much speed) might affect the golfers ability to hit the ball square on the sweet spot.  Also , didn't Tiger previously snap his lead leg straight in the late downswing to generate clubhead speed? Makes one wonder whether that need for speed contributed to his knee injuries.

Edited by Wildthing
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I'd like to raise a question regarding what Dave Tutelman mentioned in his previous post:

" During the downswing, move the hands along the hand path as fast as possible."

How does this that tie in with the force velocity curve for muscle contraction (see below)?

Doesn't this mean trying to move the arms/hands down the hand path as fast as possible will indirectly decrease the potential force the arms/hands can apply on the club?

Doesn't this mean the golfer would be more likely to increase the magnitude of the force via his arms/hands, especially in the early downswing, if the golfer is moving the whole upper body/club unit (ie. torso/shoulders/arms/hands/club) with the core muscles that may move slower but be able to produce a higher force?

--------------

What is the Force-Velocity Curve?

Though the force-velocity curve may appear confusing and complicated, it is actually very straight-forward. The force-velocity curve is simply a relationship between force and velocity and can, therefore, be displayed on an x-y graph (Figure 1). The x-axis (i.e. horizontal axis) indicates velocity, for example, this may represent muscle contraction velocity, or velocity of movement (measured in meters per second). Whilst the y-axis (i.e. vertical axis) indicates force, for example, this may represent muscle contractile force, or the amount of ground reaction force produced (measured in Newtons).

Figure-1-The-Force-Velocity-Curve.png

 

The curve itself shows an inverse relationship between force and velocity, meaning that an increase in force would cause a decrease in velocity and vice versa. Giving an example, a one repetition maximum (1RM) Back Squat would produce high levels of force but would be lifted at a slow velocity. While a countermovement jump (CMJ) would produce a high movement velocity, it would also only produce low-levels of force. This indicates that there is a trade-off between force and velocity. That being, when an exercise produces high levels of force, it will also produce a slow movement velocity and vice versa.

This trade-off between force and velocity is thought to occur due to a decrease in the time available for cross bridges to be formed – more time, equals more cross bridges, and more cross bridges mean a greater contractile force (1). Therefore, slower velocity exercises allow the athlete to form more cross bridges and develop more force. Higher velocity exercises provide less time for cross bridges to form, and therefore results in lower force production.

 

I thought I may as well add this AMG video too which provides some interesting comparisons between pros and amateurs and also how they increased the clubhead speed of a specific amateur (before and after).

It seems that the amateurs perception of the golf swing was responsible for his smaller clubhead speed (ie. see below).

1. Leave hands up

2. Passive arms

3. Rotate hard

 

 

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Manual De La Torre - 'Understanding the Golf Swing' & Harvey Penick's 'Little Red Book' two great books on the golf swing for us ordinary golfers without a physics degree. 😉

Driver  - Cleveland Launcher HB Turbo 10.5 * Miyazaki Kua 5 / R Flex

FW - Sub70 Pro 4 wood 16.5 * Project X HL / R Flex

Irons - Cleveland Launcher CBX 4-PW Miyazaki Kua 6 / R Flex

Wedges - Cleveland Launcher CBX 50* & 54* Rolex Wedge Flex

Putter - Cleveland Frontline Elevado 35 "

Ball - On Core Elixer

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29 minutes ago, dcorun said:

Manual De La Torre - 'Understanding the Golf Swing' & Harvey Penick's 'Little Red Book' two great books on the golf swing for us ordinary golfers without a physics degree. 😉

I think I mentioned this earlier, I think understanding all of the technical stuff is an asset for an instructor to understand, but for most players it's almost a detriment.  Most players need to find the feels and images and do the drills that produce an efficient swing.  The instructor is the bridge between the technical "physics" of the golf swing and the end user.  

:titleist-small: Irons Titleist T200, AMT Red stiff

:callaway-small:Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:mizuno-small: T22 54 and 58 wedges

:mizuno-small: 7-wood

:Sub70: 5-wood

 B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

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Here's another image that Dr Kwon produced showing the typical 'in plane net force' (black vector arrow) applied via the mid-hand-point on the grip in the downswing.  Now this is weird because it shows that force across the club in the downswing (from Top of Backswing TB -> ED club vertical) that creates a negative moment of force (torque) which will tend to rotate the clubhead clockwise (from a face-on view) and retain the lag angle between the clubshaft and lead arm. 

I don't think it's likely caused by the lead hand (although that might be possible) but probably via the trail hand as mentioned in Dr Sasho MacKenzie's videos.  The problem is to try and explain what pro golfers could be doing to generate that net force across the club in the early downswing.

 

NT-KwonTangentialRadial.jpg

 

 

Here again we have another idea of how lag angle can be retained via forces at the grip that may contribute to greater clubhead speed during release. There seems to be many different explanations for the creation of clubhead speed which, to be honest, can be very confusing. In my humble opinion, it all needs to be put together in some logical fashion if possible.

1. Faster Backswing (Dr Sasho MacKenzie)

2. Longer hand path to apply more linear work (Dr Sasho Mackenzie)

3. Create max hand speed earlier in the downswing (Athletic Motion Golf)

4. Creation of 'Stretch Shorten Cycles' at the joints from ground up using a kinematic sequence proximal to distal (Dr Greg Rose/Dr Phil Cheetham)

5. Optimised hand path (Dr Steven Nesbit)

6. Ground reaction forces tied in with a kinetic sequence 'Horizontal/Torque/Vertical' (Dr Scott Lynn) 

7. Maximising the velocities of the arms/shoulders/ribcage/pelvis at the same time in the downswing (Dr Kwon)

8. Net force across the mid-hand-point to retain the lag angle as shown in Dr Sasho MacKenzie videos and Dr Kwon diagrams.

9. Active lead forearm rotation to increase clubhead speed (Dr Sasho Mackenzie research article)

10. The greater the fold (wrist cock) the more efficient the transfer of energy from the body to the club (Rod White).

11.  The trail arm to create more force in the downswing (Dave Tutelman - Leecommotion, the Right-Side Swing (tutelman.com) 

12. Wrist torque that retards or delays release usually winds up increasing clubhead speed at impact (Jorgensen)

Further, to create even more confusion there are research articles that:

a. Could not find a kinematic sequence proclaimed in point 4 above (Speed Generation in the Golf Swing - Brady C Anderson)

b. Could not find any energy being transferred between body segments in some proximal to distal sequence (Brady C Anderson). 

c. Some research says most of the work done by body segments is to move themselves, not get transferred between segments (Work and Power Analysis of the Golf Swing- Dr Steven Nesbit)

d.  Could not find any correlation between ground reaction forces and clubhead speed (Effect of Horizontal Ground Reaction Forces during the Golf Swing: Implications for the Development of Technical Solutions of Golf Swing Analysis :Maxime Bourgain, Christophe Sauret, Grégoire Prum, Laura Valdes-Tamayo, Olivier Rouillon, Patricia Thoreux, and Philippe Rouch).

Addendum: Athletic Motion Golf say that golfers should never try to hold lag, therefore contradicting the possible use of point 12  above.

I apologise to any forum members about posting so many articles that require some background in science to understand, but I thought I'd amalgamate most of the possible explanations in one thread rather than piecemeal over multiple threads.

Edited by Wildthing
added point 12 and 'Addendum'
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  • 2 weeks later...

Now this is an interesting video for creating clubhead speed by Eric Cogorno and might be worth a go on the range.

 

 

I think I understand some of the physics involved in the above video but that would involve the lead upper arm being 'connected' against the lead pec in the early downswing. This reminded me of Dave Tutelman's explanation of a way he was able to create more force transmission via the lead arm/hand to the club.

Leecommotion, the Right-Side Swing (tutelman.com)

Basically, he is demonstrating how he used his chest as a fulcrum to lever around the extended left arm.

radius_2.gif

 

I've seen an old video of Dave Tutelman's golf swing on you-tube and it definitely looks like he's doing the above. For those golfers who aren't spring chickens anymore and can't create a longer hand path to apply more 'work' (in the physics sense) to the club in the downswing , this could be a method to create more 'Force' along a shorter hand path (ie. for golfers who predominantly use their lead side to swing the golf club).

Here's a golfer who I suspect (I cannot be 100% certain) is levering his 'connected' upper arm by his chest .

 

 

However , I don't think Dr Sasho MacKenzie was doing the above in his one armed swing although he still struck it 250 yds. Logan Aldridge above can drive the ball over 300 yds.

Addendum 13/06/22:  On reflection, he might be using his pec to help lever his upper arm but not as efficiently as Logan. 

 

 

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Some more confusing aspects about generating clubhead speed have surfaced and I'm still having trouble understanding. It concerns 2 different research articles by Dr Sasho MacKenzie and I will post some comments later when I've read them again.

1. Basically, he found that most of the power a golfer generates in the golf swing (using a model) is via the shoulders , then wrists and then upper body torque.  That seems to infer that the fast twitch muscles (ie. in the shoulders) are generating most of the power in the golf swing but that doesn't confirm how much energy is being transferred to the club. It could be that most of the power is being used to move the shoulder girdle/arms and not the club. 

Addendum 13/06/22

I read the article again (extract below) and it does show how energy is transferred from the various segments in the model (from a proximal-distal direction). Although the torso is moving quite slowly, it was generating a significant amount of energy all through the downswing. 

Title Of Research Document Examining the delayed release in the golf swing using computer simulation (E. J. Sprigings and S. J. Mackenzie)

-------------------------------------------

In the past, the main source of power for the golf swing had been attributed to the large muscles of the legs and torso (Cochran & Stobbs 1968). They had reasoned that a good golfer would be required to generate up to four horsepower (3040 W) to reach clubhead speeds in excess of 100 mph (44 m/s), and the only way of accomplishing this was to recruit approximately 13.6 kg of muscle mass, working flat out. They had neglected to take into consideration the role that the linear reaction forces at the joint centres play in transferring energy through to the clubhead via joint-force power (Fig. 8). Although muscle torques developed at the torso and shoulder are ultimately responsible for the linear reaction forces at the wrist joint, the peak magnitudes of muscle power never exceeded 800 W for any of the three joints. The highest maximum muscle power value (800 W) was recorded for the shoulder joint, with the next highest occurring at the wrist joint (600 W), and the smallest at the torso (390 W). The higher peak power value recorded for wrist torque when compared with the larger torso segment is a consequence of the force–velocity properties of muscle. The larger torso muscles are predominately composed of slow twitch fibres, while the muscles associated with wrist torque are known to have a higher ratio of fast twitch fibres (Johnson et al. 1973). This means that in the model the wrist torque generators had the capacity during the simulation to exert torque magnitudes in excess of 20 N m while the club was simultaneously reaching angular speeds approaching 30 rad. s), generating maximum power of approximately 600 W. On the other hand, the maximum torques developed by the torso segment (120 N m) were greater in magnitude than that at the wrist, but were exerted on the torso segment that was rotating relatively slowly (3.25 rad. s)  as impact approached, thus generating lower maximum power (390 W). Although the peak power provided by the torso was the lowest of the three segments, its contribution in terms of energy production was significant because of the magnitude of power being maintained near its peak for most of the downswing (Fig. 6). Inspection of Figs 9 and 10 reveal that energy leaves the distal end of the torso segment (Fig. 9, Emd1) and enters the proximal end of the arm segment (Fig. 10, Emp2). This is a result of the same shoulder muscle torque acting on both segments simultaneously, but in opposite directions. The same shoulder torque that helps to speed up the rotation of the arm segment slows down the rotation of the torso.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

2. Then another improved 3D model produced an optimised clubhead swing using torque generators in the joints (within human capabilities) and produced the graph further below. One can see that in the early downswing there is virtually no shoulder torque and just torso generated torque.

Question: Torso is mainly slow-twitch muscles and generate smaller forces over a longer period of time compared to fast twitch muscles .  Therefore , why isn't the golfer model using the shoulder torques in the early downswing rather than the torso?  Is it because there are a greater number of slow twitch muscles in the torso where all the smaller forces add up and create on average a greater torque than all the combined fast twitch shoulder muscles?

MacK_3D.gif

 

MacK_degreesOfRotation.gif

 

MacK_torques.gif

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
read the research articles again and corrected my post
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  • 2 weeks later...

Here's another piece of research from Dr Grober.

2006.11778.pdf (arxiv.org)

Now the maths is incredibly complicated so it's best to look at the summary. 

To explain it simply, it seems that many PGA Pro golfers have learned to apply a negative 'couple' on the club approaching impact to keep the clubhead path radius large so that there is less 'in-out-in' relative to the ball-target line.

Imagine what would happen if the clubface path was more curved 'in-out-in' if you just let the wrists flip the club through impact (see image below).

MiyahiraFlipperrThree.jpg

 

You would have to time the squaring of the clubface more perfectly than if the club-path was less curved (ie. longer radius). 

If the radius of the club path was longer, the clubface will not be rotating as much per unit distance of travel which might help in accuracy of strike with ball.

image.png.e5e4d2110485d60b87adcb685f2d0224.png

 

 

But a negative 'couple' applied via the hands on the grip will reduce the clubhead speed approaching impact, therefore it seems there could be a 'trade-off' going on between speed and accuracy.

So is this why we see many golfers with this post impact position (see images below) where the club has not bypassed the lead arm and the radius of the clubhead swing path being made longer for the sake of accuracy rather than clubhead speed?  There has not been enough proof gathered yet and we'll need to await for further research data.

RahmDHerTwo.jpg

 

ChampDHer.jpg

 

 

SpiethDHerFour.jpg

JohnsonDHer.jpg

And many more in this link below

Capture images of DHers (perfectgolfswingreview.net)

 

 

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Another interesting article I read was Dave Tutelman's  "Common myths debunked"

The link is below if you are interested (it's really worth a read so that you can identify possible flawed golf instruction).

Design Notes - Golf Physics p4 (tutelman.com)

A harder clubface gives more distance

On a full shot you want to hit the ball as hard as you can ... with both hands

Keep the club accelerating through impact for more power

The ball starts in the direction of the clubhead path and spins in the direction the clubface is pointing.

Hook/slice is caused by the clubface rotating closed/open during impact

Square grooves work because the sharp edges dig into the ball

Gear effect is caused by face bulge

The shaft is a string at impact. This one is true!

A draw rolls more than a fade because it has topspin

The ball goes farther at high altitude because of the thinner air

A good driver design has a high launch angle and low spin

 

The one that interested me the most was the below:

---------------------

Hook/slice is caused by the clubface rotating closed/open during impact. Another recipe I've seen espoused for an intentional hook or slice. "Rotate the hands closed at impact for a hook; rotate them open for a slice."

My opinion is that these instructions may actually be effective for some golfers -- but not because the ball's spin is affected by the clubhead's rotation. It isn't! But the golfer focusing on rotating the face closed is likely to come into the ball with the face already closed. And that will produce a hook.

Another way to look at it is to see just how much rotation you can accomplish during impact. Numbers!!!
In a good swing, the wrists stay cocked until about 50 millisec before impact. So the club "lag" goes from 90° to 0° in 50 milliseconds. This is an average of 1.8° per millisecond.
Without even trying to rotate the club, the structure of the body rotates the clubface in synch with the uncocking wrists. So the clubface angle goes from 90° to 0° in 50 milliseconds.
Since impact lasts only 0.4 milliseconds, the clubface rotates 1.8° times 0.4 = 0.72°, during impact. That's less than three quarters of a degree.
It is very unlikely that deliberately rotating the club (with hands or forearms) will more than double the rotational speed at impact. But let's be generous and say that it could add another 3/4° of rotation at impact. How much hook do you think this tiny rotation will produce?
Basically, any value from this recipe has to do with the by-products of trying to rotate the club, and nothing to do with the actual rotation during impact.

-----------------------------------------------------------

So in 50 msecs the clubface rotates 90 degrees, therefore rotation is averaging  90/50 = 1.8 degrees per millisecond.

0.4 msecs impact time means the club rotates  0.4 x 1.8 = 0.72 degrees during impact

If the forearms/arms doubled the increase in clubface rotation then that would be on average 2 x 1.8 = 3.6 degrees per millisecond

0.4 msecs impact time means the club rotates 0.4 x 3.6 = 1.44 degrees during impact.

Can these small differences in clubface rotation during impact period of 0.4 msecs actually make much difference to the accuracy of the strike?

If you did simple Trigonometry (see image below) comparing a 300 yard straight drive (ie. where clubface was square to ball-target line at point that clubface and ball lost contact)  versus one whose clubface rotated 1.44 degrees from square it would cause the ball to deviate approx 7.5 yards.

 

Ping cannot find any appreciable correlation between 'Rate Of Clubface Closure'  and 'Accuracy'. Seems that pro golfers might be experts in getting the clubface approximately square or close to square at impact whatever their ROC , but their ROC during the impact  period of 0.4 msecs doesn't affect their shot dispersion by any large amount (if you view 7.5 yds dispersion for a 300 yd drive as relatively small).

image.png.015417c896da4deff5ca39502ea28ed8.png


 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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Unsure whether I've posted this before, but I found this research article (link below).  So, to add to all the confusion, we have another scientific research article that claims that a bent lead elbow can create a dramatic increase in speed and greater accuracy (with less stress on the back).

WAS VARDON RIGHT

[PDF] Was Vardon Right | Semantic Scholar

According to the author/scientist he summarised his findings below:

 

3.2. The Vardon Swing. 
Let us turn now to the swing in which the elbow joint has a significant bend at the beginning of the down swing. Figure 3 shows the swing speeds obtained for various initial values of θ and a fixed initial wrist cock angle of 90 deg. as the initial elbow joint angle β(0) is increased from 0 to 105 deg. 

KY0S1SCRV0HP.png
Fig. 3. 


In order to get a better feel for the situation let us compare two very possible cases (Fig. 4). In the first  case the golfer uses a straight left arm, raises his hands to shoulder height (θ(0) = 90 deg) and uses a 90 deg  wrist cock angle (β(0) = 90 deg). This configuration leads to a clubhead speed at impact of 31.88 m/s. 

Now consider the same set up except that the elbow is now bent through 90 deg. (φ(0) = 90 deg). The  clubhead speed at impact is now 44.48 m/s a whopping 39.5% increase! This translates into an increase in  distance of approximately 57 m.  While it is impossible to know exactly what Vardon did there can be no doubt that a bent left arm yields superior results.

FSWEVZ01MS7T.png

My own preference (following Dr. Leonardi closely) is for a lower position of the hands corresponding to θ(0) = 75 deg. This results in a clubhead speed of about 91 mph but the position is extremely easy to achieve and places very little stress on the lower back – an important factor for those of  us in our later years. 

As to the matter of improved accuracy I can only offer an opinion. It seems to me that this is probably due to the more upright nature of the swing resulting in a swing path that is more along the line of play. 

Conclusion. 
The primary motivation for this work was to provide a theoretical justification for the superiority of the “Vardon Swing”, in particular as it is propounded in 'Jorgensen, T.P. The Physics of Golf. 2nd Ed).  I believe that aim has been satisfied. It remains a mystery as to why this approach to the golf swing has received so little attention from the golf profession. 

However, in the process a spreadsheet has been developed, which provides a useful tool for investigations of the golf swing, and which can be replicated by anyone with the necessary mathematical basics. All manner of “what if” exercises can be performed (changing the club, altering the total time of the swing, changing the allowable torques, examining the effect of gravity and so on). 
 

PS.

Here's a video where one of the TPI experts (Dave Phillips) advocate a bent lead arm.

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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Revisiting the article below:

Examining the delayed release in the golf swing using computer simulation ( E. J. Sprigings and S. J. Mackenzie)

delayedrelease.pdf (sashomackenzie.com)

I've learned the following:

1. Do not try and hold the angle between lead arm and clubshaft using only your wrist muscles.
2. If a golfer tries to hold the lag angle using the wrist muscles until point of release and then tried to revert to passive wrists, the loss of clubhead speed will be 13% less than if the golfer had used a 'natural release'. Dr Sasho MacKenzie  didn't detail exactly what a natural release was, but I suspect it's using passive wrists other than the hand couple required (as a stopper) to prevent the jack-knifing of the club during the downswing and just allowing the 'In Plane MOF' to trigger the release.

Addendum: I read the article again and it seems that even in a natural release swing using his model, there was still a need to use a positive wrist torque at the release point which was at about P5.5.  The SIM-2  swing delayed the release by an incredibly small amount allowing the lead arm to move downwards by an extra 3.25 degrees (with the angle between lead arm/clubshaft retained at 90 degrees).

So basically, if the golfer tried to hold that angle using only the wrists (even for a very small extra downswing movement of lead arm of 3.25 degrees, compared to a natural release), he/she will need to actively use those wrists to prevent a substantial decrease in clubhead speed by impact.

Dr MacKenzie does mention that Pro golfers use other means to retain that angle other than actively using their wrist muscles and I am assuming that means either creating eccentric forces across the club that will cause a negative 'In Plane' MOF or changing the hand path so that it becomes less curved from top of backswing to release point.

Here are the graphs:

image.png.746825185d1821ba7644712ddaa5362f.png

 

But wait, we have more confusion because look at these 'inverse dynamic' graphs of a multiple major winner.  As you can see the 'hand couple' (blue graph line) goes negative at about club horizontal in the downswing all the way to impact.

image.png.928cac9021c19fa01df84f2942f6195e.png

 

This is the because the club is moving so fast (ie. its angular velocity) that the wrists cannot keep up, therefore the wrists/hands are actually dragging on the grip (ie. negative torque). 

So, don't we have a contradiction? We have negative hand couple for the above but positive wrist torque appearing in the SIM2 graph all the way to impact (after release which happens at around P5.5)? 

Question:

Could it be that the wrist torque in Dr MacKenzie's model is not the same as the hand couple value in the inverse dynamic graphs above?  The hand couple value above is what is exerted on the grip about the mid-hand point.   The wrist torque in that SIM-2 experiment is about the wrist joint not the mid-hand-point.

 

Edited by Wildthing
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Attached are some images of Rory Mcilroy I put in swing analysis video software and drew lines for reference. First is the setup image for general reference when looking at how later positions relate. Of particular note is the red line that runs roughly along the edge of his rear end / hip. 

1924992100_Rorydldriversetup.jpg.e2ed0aa9be33759297ffe5bd21e611cf.jpg

When Rory reaches the top of the swing his hands, and right forearm touch this red line. 

1226587036_Rorydldriverclubtopofswing.jpeg.fb199d1e5701e1e2fbea767e3e37dbb3.jpeg

When Rory starts down his hands, grip, right forearm, and right elbow lower straight down the red line. (Ernie Els also advocated lowering the right elbow to the right side in his How to Build a Classic Swing book, and said Byron Nelson did the same).

1266235372_Rorydldriverclubstartofdownswing.jpeg.f36bf9a851f7854b9cae1f5f5580958c.jpeg

(Some people may think this is the same picture as the previous, but if you look closely you will see the shaft has flexed more, the grip has lowered slightly, and his legs/hips have lowered/squatted/flexed slightly) Also of note his right hip is staying back on the line.

1452495636_Rorydldriverearlydownswing.jpeg.b03b50734c1e4b60a6abe6342a386a40.jpeg

In the early downswing (prior to left arm parallel) the hands, arm, and right elbow continue to travel straight down as shown by them staying on the red line. (The right hip also remains on the red line).

 

In the next image the hands and arms have started to move away from the red line. The hands are moving away from the right shoulder which is remaining back, and as a result the right arm is straightening. The shaft is coming down steep in this early downswing disproving the people who say that clubs shallow right away from the top, or in the early downswing of elite golfers.

1423717049_Rorydldriverleftarmparalleldownswing.jpeg.d374510f1aaef0948c97e56d2f0c67b4.jpeg

 

At hip high in the downswing the hands continued to separate from the rear shoulder, and the arm continued to straighten. The shaft has returned on to the blue plane it was on at address. This is the point at which 3d systems and sensors start reporting the hands decelerating in speed, and the club shaft is loaded, so that it will do the work and energy will transfer through the shaft into the head to create clubhead speed. If people instead are trying to accelerate or maintain hand speed they will not transmit energy to the club, and will never reach their maximum potential for clubhead speed.

Also of note is how low Rory's rear foot has stayed to the ground. Much like how Greg Norman, Nick Faldo , and Nick Price all did when they were playing their best.

38092780_Rorydldriverhandshiphighdownswing.jpeg.c05f07b98ebbfde75158f9ce4d71d6f9.jpeg

 

In the final image we have an impact position. The rear arm continued to straighten and the hands continued to separate from the rear shoulder. If the right hip had stayed back closer to the red line the hands and club shaft would have stayed on the blue line and would be near it still at impact. If you look at images where Sergio Garcia, Ben Hogan, and at some times Nick Faldo and Nick Price arrived with hands and shaft on the same plane at impact as they were at address you will find that their rear hip has stayed back. The more the hip has moved away the higher the hands are at impact. (Ernie Els is an example of someone whose hip comes out, and hands get high).

If you look at many of the iron shots Mcilroy has hit when he's been playing his best you will see his back foot staying flat on the ground through impact.

1859234381_Rorydldriverimpact.jpeg.2788797cf53d96fe61aa8cb34ada7394.jpeg

Having the hands lower and accelerate right from the top while the body is less active (followed by hand deceleration around hip high down) is what you'll find advocated by instructors like Mike Malaska, Tony Luczak, Stuart Small, and the Athletic Motion Golf guys (Shaun Webb and Mike Granato) and a lot of other good modern teachers. (It's also a style of swinging that was advocated by Manuel De La Torre).

 

This recently posted video by Michael Jacob's showing energy building in the hands and elbows and transferring to the club head. 

 

 

 

Edited by Scientific Golfer
Added video link

 

 

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Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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On 6/28/2022 at 7:36 PM, Scientific Golfer said:

Attached are some images of Rory Mcilroy I put in swing analysis video software and drew lines for reference. First is the setup image for general reference when looking at how later positions relate. Of particular note is the red line that runs roughly along the edge of his rear end / hip. 

1924992100_Rorydldriversetup.jpg.e2ed0aa9be33759297ffe5bd21e611cf.jpg

When Rory reaches the top of the swing his hands, and right forearm touch this red line. 

1226587036_Rorydldriverclubtopofswing.jpeg.fb199d1e5701e1e2fbea767e3e37dbb3.jpeg

When Rory starts down his hands, grip, right forearm, and right elbow lower straight down the red line. (Ernie Els also advocated lowering the right elbow to the right side in his How to Build a Classic Swing book, and said Byron Nelson did the same).

1266235372_Rorydldriverclubstartofdownswing.jpeg.f36bf9a851f7854b9cae1f5f5580958c.jpeg

(Some people may think this is the same picture as the previous, but if you look closely you will see the shaft has flexed more, the grip has lowered slightly, and his legs/hips have lowered/squatted/flexed slightly) Also of note his right hip is staying back on the line.

1452495636_Rorydldriverearlydownswing.jpeg.b03b50734c1e4b60a6abe6342a386a40.jpeg

In the early downswing (prior to left arm parallel) the hands, arm, and right elbow continue to travel straight down as shown by them staying on the red line. (The right hip also remains on the red line).

 

In the next image the hands and arms have started to move away from the red line. The hands are moving away from the right shoulder which is remaining back, and as a result the right arm is straightening. The shaft is coming down steep in this early downswing disproving the people who say that clubs shallow right away from the top, or in the early downswing of elite golfers.

1423717049_Rorydldriverleftarmparalleldownswing.jpeg.d374510f1aaef0948c97e56d2f0c67b4.jpeg

 

At hip high in the downswing the hands continued to separate from the rear shoulder, and the arm continued to straighten. The shaft has returned on to the blue plane it was on at address. This is the point at which 3d systems and sensors start reporting the hands decelerating in speed, and the club shaft is loaded, so that it will do the work and energy will transfer through the shaft into the head to create clubhead speed. If people instead are trying to accelerate or maintain hand speed they will not transmit energy to the club, and will never reach their maximum potential for clubhead speed.

Also of note is how low Rory's rear foot has stayed to the ground. Much like how Greg Norman, Nick Faldo , and Nick Price all did when they were playing their best.

38092780_Rorydldriverhandshiphighdownswing.jpeg.c05f07b98ebbfde75158f9ce4d71d6f9.jpeg

 

In the final image we have an impact position. The rear arm continued to straighten and the hands continued to separate from the rear shoulder. If the right hip had stayed back closer to the red line the hands and club shaft would have stayed on the blue line and would be near it still at impact. If you look at images where Sergio Garcia, Ben Hogan, and at some times Nick Faldo and Nick Price arrived with hands and shaft on the same plane at impact as they were at address you will find that their rear hip has stayed back. The more the hip has moved away the higher the hands are at impact. (Ernie Els is an example of someone whose hip comes out, and hands get high).

If you look at many of the iron shots Mcilroy has hit when he's been playing his best you will see his back foot staying flat on the ground through impact.

1859234381_Rorydldriverimpact.jpeg.2788797cf53d96fe61aa8cb34ada7394.jpeg

Having the hands lower and accelerate right from the top while the body is less active (followed by hand deceleration around hip high down) is what you'll find advocated by instructors like Mike Malaska, Tony Luczak, Stuart Small, and the Athletic Motion Golf guys (Shaun Webb and Mike Granato) and a lot of other good modern teachers. (It's also a style of swinging that was advocated by Manuel De La Torre).

 

This recently posted video by Michael Jacob's showing energy building in the hands and elbows and transferring to the club head. 

 

 

 

Interesting theories but I have some questions:

1. "This is the point at which 3d systems and sensors start reporting the hands decelerating in speed, and the club shaft is loaded, so that it will do the work and energy will transfer through the shaft into the head to create clubhead speed. If people instead are trying to accelerate or maintain hand speed they will not transmit energy to the club, and will never reach their maximum potential for clubhead speed."

Can you explain how energy is transferred through the shaft to the clubhead if the hands are not accelerating? 

2. When the left arm moves down, won't the trail arm/elbow move down?  What exactly are you advocating the trail arm to do and what would be the benefits of doing it?

3. "If you look at many of the iron shots Mcilroy has hit when he's been playing his best you will see his back foot staying flat on the ground through impact".

"Also of note is how low Rory's rear foot has stayed to the ground. Much like how Greg Norman, Nick Faldo , and Nick Price all did when they were playing their best."

What are the benefits of keeping the rear foot on the ground? Why would Rory/Norman/Faldo/Price play their best by having their rear foot on the ground in the early downswing from P4-P5?

4. "If you look at images where Sergio Garcia, Ben Hogan, and at some times Nick Faldo and Nick Price arrived with hands and shaft on the same plane at impact as they were at address"

Many PGA Pro golfers do not arrive with their hands and shaft on the same plane at impact as they were at address. What are the benefits of doing the latter like Garcia/Hogan and others?

5. "Having the hands lower and accelerate right from the top while the body is less active (followed by hand deceleration around hip high down) is what you'll find advocated by instructors like Mike Malaska, Tony Luczak, Stuart Small, and the Athletic Motion Golf guys (Shaun Webb and Mike Granato) and a lot of other good modern teachers. (It's also a style of swinging that was advocated by Manuel De La Torre)."

So are they promoting a lead arm swing style like Leslie King with a reactive body pivot?

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf - Golf Today

There are scientists who have performed 3D measurements of PGA pros that seems to suggest a kinematic sequence from ground up in the downswing  (like the below from Dr Phil Cheetham).

What is the correct Kinematic Sequence? — THE SWING LAB THEORY -  Performance & Therapy

 

But there are other scientists who claim the swing is double pendular where the pelvis/torso/arms rotate together in the early downswing. If you look at the above graph the lines are pretty close together but if you look closer during the transition (before the club has reached the end of the backswing) one can see that the pelvis rotates first, thorax(ribcage) next , then arms and finally the club.

Understanding the Kinematic Sequence | by Top Performance Golf | Medium

 

 

Interesting video by Mike Jacobs but how did he work out the kinetic energy of body segments? How did his system work out if energy was being transferred from those segments to the club or was it just being used to just move the body segments themselves?

 

 

 

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19 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

thats like the pump drill my coach has me do. has done wonders for contact and has lead to almost a club length more distance with my irons

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43 minutes ago, Vegan_Golfer_PNW said:

thats like the pump drill my coach has me do. has done wonders for contact and has lead to almost a club length more distance with my irons

Yep, it reenforces the proper sequence of the body and arms. Henry Fall has similar style pump drill. 
 

Theres .25 seconds from the top of the swing to impact. Any thought a person has for what they want to do at the top of the swing will happen after impact. AMG talks about it a lot. The swing is 1/2 over at lead arm parallel in the backswing. From there it’s all pretty much a reaction to where the clubface is. 
 

Some like to talk about shaft lean at impact on still photos which is why I posted the video from Monte the other day talking about that 

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12 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Interesting theories but I have some questions:

1. Can you explain how energy is transferred through the shaft to the clubhead if the hands are not accelerating? 

2. When the left arm moves down, won't the trail arm/elbow move down?  What exactly are you advocating the trail arm to do and what would be the benefits of doing it?

3.What are the benefits of keeping the rear foot on the ground? Why would Rory/Norman/Faldo/Price play their best by having their rear foot on the ground in the early downswing from P4-P5?

4. Many PGA Pro golfers do not arrive with their hands and shaft on the same plane at impact as they were at address. What are the benefits of doing the latter like Garcia/Hogan and others?

5. "Having the hands lower and accelerate right from the top while the body is less active (followed by hand deceleration around hip high down) is what you'll find advocated by instructors like Mike Malaska, Tony Luczak, Stuart Small, and the Athletic Motion Golf guys (Shaun Webb and Mike Granato) and a lot of other good modern teachers. (It's also a style of swinging that was advocated by Manuel De La Torre)."

So are they promoting a lead arm swing style like Leslie King with a reactive body pivot?

Leslie King Tuition Series - An End to Trial & Error Golf - Golf Today

There are scientists who have performed 3D measurements of PGA pros that seems to suggest a kinematic sequence from ground up in the downswing  (like the below from Dr Phil Cheetham).

What is the correct Kinematic Sequence? — THE SWING LAB THEORY -  Performance & Therapy

 

But there are other scientists who claim the swing is double pendular where the pelvis/torso/arms rotate together in the early downswing. If you look at the above graph the lines are pretty close together but if you look closer during the transition (before the club has reached the end of the backswing) one can see that the pelvis rotates first, thorax(ribcage) next , then arms and finally the club.

Understanding the Kinematic Sequence | by Top Performance Golf | Medium

 

 

Interesting video by Mike Jacobs but how did he work out the kinetic energy of body segments? How did his system work out if energy was being transferred from those segments to the club or was it just being used to just move the body segments themselves?

 

 

 

#1:

Someone earlier in the thread used an analogy of a car breaking, or slowing down, and how if you had an item loose on the seat how that item would fly or slide off or across the seat (depending in the amount of force). That is a good example of how energy from decelerating hands would transfer to the shaft. If you're riding in a car and the breaks are slammed on you are going to get propelled forward with a force that is relative to how fast the car was moving, and how quickly the car slowed down and stopped. If you weren't wearing a seat belt you'd be in trouble when the car decelerates.

 

#2:

Get in your golf setup, and get in a spot where you can see your swing from downline (mirror reflection, window reflection, or record yourself (or have someone else record you). Swing up to the top of the swing.

 

From the top pull downward using your left elbow, left shoulder, or both (no right shoulder, or elbow pull). What happens? (Likely you will the shaft steepen, the hands/handle will lower while the club stays high, and the hands, arms, and club will rotate counter clockwise which will close the clubface. Thd club likely to be moving out to in if the shoulders/chest/torso or other body parts start rotating open). Heel of the club more likely than toe to contact the ground.

Now go back up to the top again. This time use just your right shoulder, right elbow, or both (no left shoulder or elbow pull). What happens this time? (Likely you will see the the club shallow/flatten, but not in a good way, the hands/handle will stay high while the club head gets low. This often leads to high hands that move away from the body into impact (shank very possible from here) and a vertical shaft at impact. Not good good for clubhead turf contact. Toe of the clubhead more likely than heel to contact the ground. This downswing the body is more likely to stay turned away from the target better/longer and you may get more of a path that goes from in to out.

Now go back to the top again. This time have both shoulders/elbows lower at the same rate as each other. This will lead to a more neutral lowering, and won't have to result in countering for extremes that the other two single side pull downs can create. This neutral lowering may lead to the elbows maintaining their distance from one another better than the other two pull down methods where the elbows distance from each other may increase.

 

#3:

Greg Norman said him and Butch Harmon liked him staying flat footed through impact as that allowed to his hips to make a more rotational movement and a more shallow low point to the club near impact. The higher rear heel will lead to more tilting, a more steep glancing V shaped impact where low point control is more inconsistent. 

Nick Price said keeping flat footed helps you stay in balance, and can also keep your hips from spinning out. 

Nick Faldo said the foot coming up could lead the legs being too active the hips stalling, loss of posture, early extension, loss of stability, and increased inconsistency.

While Ernie Els had occasions where his rear heal would be significantly elevated at impact he too played his best golf while being flat footed near/through impact. I remember Ernie setting a four day tournament record on a week were he was flat footed at impact. (I think it may have been during the Johnny Walker Classic).

Rear foot staying grounded means more stability and more consistency.

 

#4:

The shaft returning close to its original plane at impact can have a number of benefits. It can be more consistent then the high hands position. If you look at some of the things that cause high hands: rear foot coming off the ground, early extension, chest and arms raising up (becoming more vertical) coming into impact, hands and arms moving out and away from the body on the downswing you have a list of things that produce inconstancy, and are found commonly in unskilled high handicappers. It's far less common in highly skilled elite golfers who are known for their consistency over long periods of time. 

While there are occasionally times where some players who jump out of their shoes, overdrive their legs, tip and tilt excessive manage to have occasional acceptable shots when they compensate and time those compensations right they contend far less than then players that are more stable. (Often times their putting is what keeps those inconsistent golfers in brief contention).

I believe Bradly Hughes (former Tour Golfer and current instructor) had written a book and articles about the benefits of returning to a similar plane at impact to the address plane, and gave a list of skilled Tour Pros  who golfed that way.

 

#5:

Yes, aside from the Athletic Motion Golf guys all the other instructors that were mentioned advocate the body being the support for the swinging of the arms and club. While the Athletic Motion Golf guys off and on promote using the body in some way (in order to live up to their group name) they often advocate and demonstrate hitting balls while on their knees (taking the body out of the equation), and have done videos on how the hands/handle/arms are the fastest moving thing from the top of the swing down to hip high.

 

In the TPI 3d golfer models it shows the point at which each segment peaks (and then right away begins decelerating). Like the car breaking and the results on the objects inside  analogy each break and deceleration can cause a transfer of energy to nearby objects.

The human body (muscles) don't work like rubber bands. Wind up in your backswing as much as you can (without hurting yourself), and then just drop the tension in those segments that felt like they were stretching. Did they snap back automatically with force and speed like a rubber band? I suspect not, and I suspect they moved very little from the tension point to the relaxed point.

 

As others have mentioned the time it takes from the top of the swing to impact is too short to not only think a swing thought, but to do it as well. That's why you see a lot of the biomechanically studied previously mentioned instructors advocating reversing / transitioning the swing long before the club reaches the top of the swing. If you look at the changes between one of the 3d model posed positions and the one following it do you think you'd have time to think about and execute a movement between those two positions. If you can't do one in that time period how do you expect to do three to four that comprise all of the movements in that time frame of less than 2 seconds (entire swing), or less than 1 second (time from top to impact)?

 

 

 

 

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On 7/1/2022 at 9:24 AM, Scientific Golfer said:

#1:

Someone earlier in the thread used an analogy of a car breaking, or slowing down, and how if you had an item loose on the seat how that item would fly or slide off or across the seat (depending in the amount of force). That is a good example of how energy from decelerating hands would transfer to the shaft. If you're riding in a car and the breaks are slammed on you are going to get propelled forward with a force that is relative to how fast the car was moving, and how quickly the car slowed down and stopped. If you weren't wearing a seat belt you'd be in trouble when the car decelerates.

 

#2:

Get in your golf setup, and get in a spot where you can see your swing from downline (mirror reflection, window reflection, or record yourself (or have someone else record you). Swing up to the top of the swing.

 

From the top pull downward using your left elbow, left shoulder, or both (no right shoulder, or elbow pull). What happens? (Likely you will the shaft steepen, the hands/handle will lower while the club stays high, and the hands, arms, and club will rotate counter clockwise which will close the clubface. Thd club likely to be moving out to in if the shoulders/chest/torso or other body parts start rotating open). Heel of the club more likely than toe to contact the ground.

Now go back up to the top again. This time use just your right shoulder, right elbow, or both (no left shoulder or elbow pull). What happens this time? (Likely you will see the the club shallow/flatten, but not in a good way, the hands/handle will stay high while the club head gets low. This often leads to high hands that move away from the body into impact (shank very possible from here) and a vertical shaft at impact. Not good good for clubhead turf contact. Toe of the clubhead more likely than heel to contact the ground. This downswing the body is more likely to stay turned away from the target better/longer and you may get more of a path that goes from in to out.

Now go back to the top again. This time have both shoulders/elbows lower at the same rate as each other. This will lead to a more neutral lowering, and won't have to result in countering for extremes that the other two single side pull downs can create. This neutral lowering may lead to the elbows maintaining their distance from one another better than the other two pull down methods where the elbows distance from each other may increase.

 

#3:

Greg Norman said him and Butch Harmon liked him staying flat footed through impact as that allowed to his hips to make a more rotational movement and a more shallow low point to the club near impact. The higher rear heel will lead to more tilting, a more steep glancing V shaped impact where low point control is more inconsistent. 

Nick Price said keeping flat footed helps you stay in balance, and can also keep your hips from spinning out. 

Nick Faldo said the foot coming up could lead the legs being too active the hips stalling, loss of posture, early extension, loss of stability, and increased inconsistency.

While Ernie Els had occasions where his rear heal would be significantly elevated at impact he too played his best golf while being flat footed near/through impact. I remember Ernie setting a four day tournament record on a week were he was flat footed at impact. (I think it may have been during the Johnny Walker Classic).

Rear foot staying grounded means more stability and more consistency.

 

#4:

The shaft returning close to its original plane at impact can have a number of benefits. It can be more consistent then the high hands position. If you look at some of the things that cause high hands: rear foot coming off the ground, early extension, chest and arms raising up (becoming more vertical) coming into impact, hands and arms moving out and away from the body on the downswing you have a list of things that produce inconstancy, and are found commonly in unskilled high handicappers. It's far less common in highly skilled elite golfers who are known for their consistency over long periods of time. 

While there are occasionally times where some players who jump out of their shoes, overdrive their legs, tip and tilt excessive manage to have occasional acceptable shots when they compensate and time those compensations right they contend far less than then players that are more stable. (Often times their putting is what keeps those inconsistent golfers in brief contention).

I believe Bradly Hughes (former Tour Golfer and current instructor) had written a book and articles about the benefits of returning to a similar plane at impact to the address plane, and gave a list of skilled Tour Pros  who golfed that way.

 

#5:

Yes, aside from the Athletic Motion Golf guys all the other instructors that were mentioned advocate the body being the support for the swinging of the arms and club. While the Athletic Motion Golf guys off and on promote using the body in some way (in order to live up to their group name) they often advocate and demonstrate hitting balls while on their knees (taking the body out of the equation), and have done videos on how the hands/handle/arms are the fastest moving thing from the top of the swing down to hip high.

 

In the TPI 3d golfer models it shows the point at which each segment peaks (and then right away begins decelerating). Like the car breaking and the results on the objects inside  analogy each break and deceleration can cause a transfer of energy to nearby objects.

The human body (muscles) don't work like rubber bands. Wind up in your backswing as much as you can (without hurting yourself), and then just drop the tension in those segments that felt like they were stretching. Did they snap back automatically with force and speed like a rubber band? I suspect not, and I suspect they moved very little from the tension point to the relaxed point.

 

As others have mentioned the time it takes from the top of the swing to impact is too short to not only think a swing thought, but to do it as well. That's why you see a lot of the biomechanically studied previously mentioned instructors advocating reversing / transitioning the swing long before the club reaches the top of the swing. If you look at the changes between one of the 3d model posed positions and the one following it do you think you'd have time to think about and execute a movement between those two positions. If you can't do one in that time period how do you expect to do three to four that comprise all of the movements in that time frame of less than 2 seconds (entire swing), or less than 1 second (time from top to impact)?

 

 

Many thanks for your response but I have to raise a few issues for debate (if I may)

#1

Looking at the analogy of a car and slamming the brakes, this will not generate any extra force on the passenger.  The passenger, or any object which is not attached to the car will continue to move with the velocity it had just before impact.

Look at my simple diagram below.

image.png.62e11f1d7f791e54e9106ca650015339.png

 

The physics of release and the angular acceleration of the club is a lot more complicated but explained in Dr Sasho MacKenzie's vimeo video whose link I've previously posted a few times.

 

 

A torque is required to angular accelerate the club and that is being caused by 'eccentric forces' via the hands on the grip (something called the 'In Plane Moment Of Force'). This torque will exert an equal and opposite torque via the wrist joints to the arms that will slow them down.  I suppose one could theoretically apply an active force to decelerate the arms/hands, which might create an eccentric force like the image below. The yellow arrow force would create a 'Moment of Force ' on the COM of the club (red dot) and cause an increase in the angular rotation of the club in the red arrow anti-clockwise direction.  But I think it would be anatomically difficult to do (if possible), especially in such a short downswing time.

Addendum:  You will also note that a force in the yellow arrow direction will also cause a force on the COM of the club in the same direction . So although there might be an increase in the angular acceleration of the club (about its COM)  , it will cause a linear acceleration of the COM (away from target ) which will tend to slow any linear movement of the COM towards the target.

image.png.781309063666f107fcbc499a00397554.png

 

#2

Steepening the clubshaft by pulling actively downwards with the arms is a possibility although the 'Moment of Inertia' of the mass of the 'club/hand/forearm' about the longitudinal axis of the forearm can be very large when lead wrist is in radial deviation.  I imagine many golfers will inadvertently supinate their lead forearm which will steepen the shaft, or lead with their trail hand instead of their elbow in the early downswing, or both. 

Imho, the golfer needs to try and keep the clubshaft  'On Plane' and I believe the TGM definition (I'm not a TGM enthusiast) is quite a useful image.

Martin Hall produced a video showing how to keep your club 'on plane'

For example, he is swinging through various inclined planes in his swing  (like image below) but still tracing the ball-target line.

Shifting Plane Angle

 

I'll have a look at your points  #3 , #4 and #5  later this evening  and reply in a separate post.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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#4

Personally, I think the downswing plane is dictated by your unique body measurements as per Mike Adams short video below:

 

Also, look at this video by Dr Kwon and notice what he says from point 6:15 - 6:37

 

#5 

I can only point forum readers to this video by Dr Sasho MacKenzie

 

-----------------------------

PS. 

An arm swinging action is perfectly valid but it will not increase clubhead speed as much as a swing using an optimal kinematic sequence as indicated in the above video.  The muscles are indeed not like rubber bands although one can achieve stretch shorten cycles between the pelvis and torso , torso and shoulders , arms and wrists.  However, there are some ligaments and tendons that have elasticity properties, but I don't know what factor they may play in storing/releasing their potential energy in the golf swing.

"Some ligaments are rich in collagenous fibres, which are sturdy and inelastic, whereas others are rich in elastic fibres, which are quite tough even though they allow elastic movement. "

"Tendons are viscoelastic structures, which means they exhibit both elastic and viscous behaviour."

--------------------------------

Point #3  about right foot planted throughout the downswing to impact 

I haven't found anything from a scientific research perspective to prove if it is more advantageous than allowing the right heel to lift off the ground.

From a personal opinion, I would prefer to keep the right foot planted at least from P4-P5  (top of backswing to left arm horizontal in the downswing) rather than push into the forefoot with the right heel lifted.  If I did prematurely push onto my forefoot from the top of my backswing it would probably push the right side of my pelvis too early towards the ball-target line and block access for my arms/club to swing down and out towards the ball.

Also keeping the right foot planted might make it easier to create more optimal ground reaction forces as described in Dr Kwon's video to increase the torque about the golfers COM.  See video below from 10:35 - 13:07

 

 

Addendum: 30th July 22

Here is a slide from Dr Phil Cheetham's presentation concerning 'stretch-shorten cycle ' between body segments.

image.png.0882a5a937418be7a1f1d88ec22ca988.png

 

 

Edited by Wildthing
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With regards trail foot planting in the downswing here are 3  sample videos from other instructors and also Jack Nicklaus.

 

 

 

 

I asked Dr Jeff Mann about his opinion.

"I personally do not ever talk about how to move the trail foot during the downswing action because I do not believe there is one best way. The motional pattern of the trail foot is also going to likely be very different between front-foot golfers versus reverse foot golfers.

In general, I do not advocate pushing off the trail foot in a targetwards direction, and I do not favor a trail hip spinning action which can significantly affect the way the trail foot will move, and I also do not favor any active right pelvic thrusting action due to activation of the trail gluteus maximus muscle, which can also affect the pattern of motion of the trail foot.

Many pro golfers have their trail foot move as seen in the Jack Nicklaus video, and that's a very common pattern that makes biomechanical sense to me if the motion of the right side of the pelvis is passive."

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  • 5 weeks later...

This post is just a tentative theory without any evidence until there is a way to measure forces/torques applied by each hand in the golf swing. This post will probably only be understood by those with some scientific background who have studied and understood videos and articles by Dr Sasho Mackenzie  (with some limited knowledge of anatomy).

-----------------------------------------

I was looking at this video below and noticed how Bryson's hand path was less curved in the early downswing from P4-P5 (see images below) as his chest/pelvis swayed toward target. 

image.png.6a0458b3b7c9b812b7abb62677a553fb.png

 

I've drawn a diagram that simply shows how the 'wrist' (lead hand) could move down a straighter path as the lead shoulder joint moves targetward (just like a ladder sliding down a wall).

While the above is happening, the trail scapula is moving as shown below (left image) and that brings the upper trail arm and elbow down towards the trail hip joint (without the need to extend the trail arm). 

image.png.c67ea6cda06875cda9425b39619426d7.png

 

So, we have the 'sway' of the chest/pelvis targetward , while at the same time the trail upper arm is being lowered and moving towards an area above the trail hip (from P4-P5 which means from top of backswing to lead arm horizontal in the downswing).  The trail hand is therefore passively resisting against the targetward movement of the lead hand/grip caused by the chest/pelvis sway. I am theorising that it will assist in causing a net force across the grip as shown in Dr Kwons diagram below.

image.png.058a23a7e93f0986a2979c8bb4d60a69.png

 

So, what exactly is the benefit of all the stuff that I have posted above?

It shows a possible connection with pelvis/chest sway in achieving a straighter hand path in the early downswing. Why is that necessary apart from trying to transfer weight pressure to the lead leg? Because in the early downswing one is trying to linearly accelerate the COM of the clubhead using linear forces along the shaft. 

But while this is happening, I am theorising that the adduction (lowering) of the trail upper arm will also cause the trail arm/hand to passively apply a force across the shaft in the black arrow direction (my red arrows identify them in the diagram above). So, the trail arm will also assist in the pulling action of the lead arm to linearly accelerate the clubhead in the early downswing but also shift that net force across the grip so that it will cause a torque (see green rotation arrows in above diagram) which will tend to retain the angle between the club shaft and lead arm (ie. assist in the retention of wrist cocking in the early downswing rather than casting).

 

Edited by Wildthing
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With all this studying and theorizing you have done what improvements in your swing have you made and by how much?

example of what imoroved

clubhead speed

ball speed

smash factor 

swing mechanics 

handicap

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

With all this studying and theorizing you have done what improvements in your swing have you made and by how much?

example of what imoroved

clubhead speed

ball speed

smash factor 

swing mechanics 

handicap

I'm more interested in trying to fathom what pro golfers do what they do. 

 

 

 

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Looking at Rory. And what he did was kinda what I did in my pre lessons swing. That excessive shoulder tilt at impact. And minimal body rotation with a slight stuck pivot. Yes … he is the best ball striker around. But that was somewhat my old transition. And it is stuck city for me 

I would suggest for many a more higher rear hip bone feeling in transition and impact. And more level shoulders more open than he is. We just don’t have his ability to do what he does with his swing. Our move has to feel more over the top to get our hands and pivot in sync. As odd as it may seem. It’s damn effective 

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2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

I'm more interested in trying to fathom what pro golfers do what they do. 

 

 

 

They play a completely different game than us. And hit a million golf balls. Sometimes comparing them to us could be a disaster. We have to match up what works for us. And as Montel says “it’s a matching game” 

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1 hour ago, Goober said:

They play a completely different game than us. And hit a million golf balls. Sometimes comparing them to us could be a disaster. We have to match up what works for us. And as Montel says “it’s a matching game” 

There’s lots of instructors who teach matchups. GG, Shauheen N, those who lean under both those, Monte and in not so direct terms those who don’t teach a one swing for all.

What we can learn from what the pros do is how to move in the swing. Pressure shifting, recentering, proper sequence of the swing, staying connected. How the wrist move.

What we can also learn as you said is figure out what our body can do and incorporate the amount of movement to match that up. How much torque or wrist flexion/extension is going to vary. Dj has lots of flexion earlier, he’s not going to be able to add much more in transition where as a Freddie couples who has more of extension can add a ton of flexion and still won’t get to where dj is.

Matt Wolff swing is his own swing. Someone like Johnny Rodriquez who is coached by GG as well saw Wolff’s swing and decided to swing like that. Their swings look completely different from each other but they are doing similar things. Johnny doesn’t dig as GG calls it like Wolff does so he can’t be in the same positions as Wolff otherwise he wouldn’t hit the ball the way he wants

This is what I like about what Monte teaches and what amg shows in their videos. They show you what the pros do. Monte does a great job of it because he doesn’t get into the numbers when he’s doing a video showing a particular movement like how the lead wrist bows and the trail arm in folds in transition, just that the movement pattern is what the good ones do. Doenst say you need to flex X amount of degree or unfold from 90-65° 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

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3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s lots of instructors who teach matchups. GG, Shauheen N, those who lean under both those, Monte and in not so direct terms those who don’t teach a one swing for all.

What we can learn from what the pros do is how to move in the swing. Pressure shifting, recentering, proper sequence of the swing, staying connected. How the wrist move.

What we can also learn as you said is figure out what our body can do and incorporate the amount of movement to match that up. How much torque or wrist flexion/extension is going to vary. Dj has lots of flexion earlier, he’s not going to be able to add much more in transition where as a Freddie couples who has more of extension can add a ton of flexion and still won’t get to where dj is.

Matt Wolff swing is his own swing. Someone like Johnny Rodriquez who is coached by GG as well saw Wolff’s swing and decided to swing like that. Their swings look completely different from each other but they are doing similar things. Johnny doesn’t dig as GG calls it like Wolff does so he can’t be in the same positions as Wolff otherwise he wouldn’t hit the ball the way he wants

This is what I like about what Monte teaches and what amg shows in their videos. They show you what the pros do. Monte does a great job of it because he doesn’t get into the numbers when he’s doing a video showing a particular movement like how the lead wrist bows and the trail arm in folds in transition, just that the movement pattern is what the good ones do. Doenst say you need to flex X amount of degree or unfold from 90-65° 

Great post. And I agree, I like a how to Versus put the arm back at 90 degrees. Or front hip down at 20 degrees.. etc. The swing is never one size fits all for anyone. What I’ve been told to implement is slowly working for me. Does that mean it will help anyone else? It could, but also could make someone incredibly worse. I really respect these golf instructors. Trying decipher what is wrong in our games and come up with a fix is no easy walk in the park 

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OMG, could we possibly be making this any more complicated? If you're competing at the professional level, either golf or long drive, then this level of detail is probably warranted. If not, we can deal with a much simpler narrative. Let's look at just two issues: Sasho's paper on how amateurs create speed, and curvature of the hand path. (The latter was the thing that started this thread, but we don't seem to be focusing on how nor why in the right way.)

How do amateurs create clubhead speed

Sasho MacKenzie wrote a paper that examined four possible ways to generate clubhead speed. (Here is a link to a slide talk on the subject.)

  • The average force pulling the club along the hand path.
  • The average couple torqueing the club.
  • The length of the hand path. (colloquially "bigger turn")
  • The angular change of the club during the downswing. (colloquially "more wrist cock")

By far the strongest correlation to clubhead speed is the first factor. So for top clubhead speed, look for things that will push or pull the hands along the hand path as strongly as possible over the whole downswing. Those don't have to be hand-focused; something like a powerful torso turn toward the target will cause a hand-path force to be exerted. But do judge any proposal by whether it does this! Anything else has much less effect on clubhead speed. Justify it if you want by effect on clubhead position and path at impact, but it ain't a clubhead speed thing.

Hand path curvature

Let's assume you are more skilled, more advanced, have more control of your swing. You have already gotten as much clubhead speed out of it as you can through force along the hand path, but you are capable of doing what it takes to control the shape of the hand path. (We'll talk in a bit about "what it takes".)

As long ago as 2009, Steven Nesbit and Ryan McGinnis correlated the shape of the hand path against clubhead speed and skill of four golfers. (It was just four, and they were very different in strength and skill.) The golfer with the most skill and the most clubhead speed also had a high curvature of the hand path shortly before impact.

I'll go further and say there is probably causation there, not just correlation. (But I could be wrong, and even the correlation isn't strongly supported on a statistical basis; too few golfers involved.) I say this because an increased curvature just before impact can be caused by pulling up and in late in the downswing. Up-and-in force is well-known to increase the moment of force that angularly accelerates the club. Two factors: it requires increased centripetal force, and it increases the moment arm (force acting more in front of the club's CoM).

There are plenty of ways to make this up-and-in pull happen, and almost all the pros do something in that direction. Plenty of them jump off the ground at impact. The "power squat" early in the downswing and subsequent straightening later is a less extreme version of the jump. Some (Jordan Spieth, Jamie Sadlowski) bend the left arm; looks like a chicken-wing, but rather different kinetics involved. Tiger famously wrote about "snapping the left knee" when he wanted a few yards of extra distance; history tells us this may be effective but not safe.

Notice that I said nothing about flattening the early part of the hand path, which is what much of this thread has focused on. It is all about increasing the curvature near impact, not decreasing the curvature after transition. The latter may be a side effect of some strategies, but isn't where the speed comes from.

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