Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[vandyland]

16 hours ago, Goober said:

some need more body rotation feel. Others more arms and hand winning the race.Its endless I know 

Feels are very personal but sometimes it just takes someone else saying something that triggers your own relative understanding/feel to develop. I am always interested in what others are testing/using to deliver the club.

I think the early wrist set is particularly important for me (assuming it is on plane and wrist is in neutral to flat position) because it keeps me from downcocking. I felt like I had a little more control this past weekend and actually playing golf was helpful vs just grinding out on the range (though frustrating at times). I made better contact for the most part but I hit a few drives WAY right. It is a bit foolish for me to try to go back in time and try to guess what happened but it is any combination of:

- Spinning out from the top
- Not "casting" early or at all in the downswing
- Not doing the motorcycle move in my downswing

I have some video that I am sending Monte today to see if he thinks I am making progress in my downswing. I am still trying to resist the "hit" impulse which I feel has intensified with the early wrist set. It is like I can't wait to smack the ball now and it is making that timing a bit difficult. I need to slow down and hit more 70% swings to get used to the timing but I have so far been impatient. 

[Goober]

I like your backswing thoughts. Same thing I’m working on. But I start at the backswing (look in mirror make sure I’m set). Than I go thru it.Per a drill from my instructor.For me the flying right elbow and being stuck in transition is a killer to break 

[Jim Shaw]

On 1/8/2024 at 7:41 AM, vandyland said:

Feels are very personal but sometimes it just takes someone else saying something that triggers your own relative understanding/feel to develop. I am always interested in what others are testing/using to deliver the club.

I think the early wrist set is particularly important for me (assuming it is on plane and wrist is in neutral to flat position) because it keeps me from downcocking. I felt like I had a little more control this past weekend and actually playing golf was helpful vs just grinding out on the range (though frustrating at times). I made better contact for the most part but I hit a few drives WAY right. It is a bit foolish for me to try to go back in time and try to guess what happened but it is any combination of:

- Spinning out from the top
- Not "casting" early or at all in the downswing
- Not doing the motorcycle move in my downswing

I have some video that I am sending Monte today to see if he thinks I am making progress in my downswing. I am still trying to resist the "hit" impulse which I feel has intensified with the early wrist set. It is like I can't wait to smack the ball now and it is making that timing a bit difficult. I need to slow down and hit more 70% swings to get used to the timing but I have so far been impatient. 

your comment on the "hit" impulse, has triggered some interest from me. sometimes I regress and start working too much on "execution" and forget about hitting the damn ball...and putting too, sometimes i work so hard on line and speed I forget to hit the ball, thank you for that reminder....

[vandyland]

Had a good trackman session today and confirmed it hitting outdoors, granted it was a 9i and 7i respectively but club path and face to path seemed to be in a better spot and carry and total numbers were good. The real star of the day was my spin numbers which have increased slightly which I would assume is due to a more neutral delivery. I left a few out right as I was trying to not be so aggressive in shutting down the face. My typical spin rate with the 7 iron was 5800-6000 last time I hit with the TS3. Now that number has crept up closer to 6500 which is about ideal for me. Spinning a 9 iron around 8500 is also good for me as well. Main focus was early wrist set, keeping hands in front of chest [backswing] and then casting while keeping the body closed [downswing].

Then went outside and hit a ton of quality shots on repeat. Like maybe 1 "miss" (a little toe side) out of 15-20 full swings with the 9 iron. Made me want to go play an executive course...immediately. I know it is/will be harder with the longer clubs but the short iron felt excellent today. 

 

[Jim Shaw]

19 hours ago, vandyland said:

Had a good trackman session today and confirmed it hitting outdoors, granted it was a 9i and 7i respectively but club path and face to path seemed to be in a better spot and carry and total numbers were good. The real star of the day was my spin numbers which have increased slightly which I would assume is due to a more neutral delivery. I left a few out right as I was trying to not be so aggressive in shutting down the face. My typical spin rate with the 7 iron was 5800-6000 last time I hit with the TS3. Now that number has crept up closer to 6500 which is about ideal for me. Spinning a 9 iron around 8500 is also good for me as well. Main focus was early wrist set, keeping hands in front of chest [backswing] and then casting while keeping the body closed [downswing].

Then went outside and hit a ton of quality shots on repeat. Like maybe 1 "miss" (a little toe side) out of 15-20 full swings with the 9 iron. Made me want to go play an executive course...immediately. I know it is/will be harder with the longer clubs but the short iron felt excellent today. 

 

great post, happy you are seeing some good results, keep at it. You may have explained your "casting" procedure before however can you tell me again, when I "cast" I come over the top and hit the ball left of target

[StrokerAce]

I sometimes have a hard time shallowing my swing with driver and have tried this and it's really helped me.

 

[vandyland]

42 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

great post, happy you are seeing some good results, keep at it. You may have explained your "casting" procedure before however can you tell me again, when I "cast" I come over the top and hit the ball left of target

This is a core Monte Scheinblum teaching philosophy and teaches you to not hold your lag coming down in the downswing. It is a "cast" towards 8 o'clock (assuming your target line is 12 o'clock) AND it is a motorcycle move with your wrists. Very strange feeling for me at first and I struggled with this move for a while because I was setting my wrists WAY too late. The earlier wrist set means that at the top of my swing my wrists aren't still trying to get set and it feels easier to fire them the way Monte is describing. 

There are people that play well without this feeling but I have found when I get off my game it is me going back to "pulling" or dragging the handle down in the downswing. So the cast keeps me from doing that and even though I am casting I still have slight bit of forward shaft lean at impact. The downswing is generally so fast that even when I actively cast the club my hands still beat it to the ball. 

Edited January 11 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

9 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This is a core Monte Scheinblum teaching philosophy and teaches you to not hold your lag coming down in the downswing. It is a "cast" towards 8 o'clock (assuming your target line is 12 o'clock) AND it is a motorcycle move with your wrists. Very strange feeling for me at first and I struggled with this move for a while because I was setting my wrists WAY too late. The earlier wrist set means that at the top of my swing my wrists aren't still trying to get set and it feels easier to fire them the way Monte is describing. 

There are people that play well without this feeling but I have found when I get off my game it is me going back to "pulling" or dragging the handle down in the downswing. So the cast keeps me from doing that and even though I am casting I still have slight bit of forward shaft lean at impact. The downswing is generally so fast that even when I actively cast the club my hands still beat it to the ball. 

thanks.... 

[RickyBobby_PR]

52 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

great post, happy you are seeing some good results, keep at it. You may have explained your "casting" procedure before however can you tell me again, when I "cast" I come over the top and hit the ball left of target

Depends on 1 how the cast is being done and 2) the turn of the body.

most people cast in a motion similar to what Monte in showing except they don’t add flexion to lead wrist and the don’t turn the body. This is what most people consider a case and it’s bad. When there is rotation included it’s a casting motion but puts then golfer in the right positions and with a shallow shaft. AMG has a bunch of shallowing videos that dive into the wrist movement and body movements 

 

[Jim Shaw]

48 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Depends on 1 how the cast is being done and 2) the turn of the body.

most people cast in a motion similar to what Monte in showing except they don’t add flexion to lead wrist and the don’t turn the body. This is what most people consider a case and it’s bad. When there is rotation included it’s a casting motion but puts then golfer in the right positions and with a shallow shaft. AMG has a bunch of shallowing videos that dive into the wrist movement and body movements 

 

Casting has always been a "negative" connotation, in my career. Like an affect that I didnt want to see, "you are casting" was a comment I never want to hear, but it sounds like it is a common move being taught now, which is good if it works, probably generates more club head speed...  

[RickyBobby_PR]

27 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Casting has always been a "negative" connotation, in my career. Like an affect that I didnt want to see, "you are casting" was a comment I never want to hear, but it sounds like it is a common move being taught now, which is good if it works, probably generates more club head speed...  

it’s a move that has always happened. Jack is famous for saying you can’t cast early enough. With the capability of 3d we can now see what good golfers do and there is some level of the casting move done by all the good ball strikers. 
 

the negative connotation like many things in the past when it came to golf swings is from a lack of understanding. As mentioned casting by itself is a bad thing. One who has a good pivot which is proper pressure shifts in the swing will typically have good rotation and that combined with the casting move leads to a proper swing 

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

Casting has always been a "negative" connotation, in my career. Like an affect that I didnt want to see, "you are casting" was a comment I never want to hear, but it sounds like it is a common move being taught now, which is good if it works, probably generates more club head speed...  

Monte's teaching style takes a lot on a lot of the "classic golf instruction" tropes. Dozens of these, in fact he gave a talk at the PGA show of his top 3 last year, I believe. 

[Jim Shaw]

3 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

it’s a move that has always happened. Jack is famous for saying you can’t cast early enough. With the capability of 3d we can now see what good golfers do and there is some level of the casting move done by all the good ball strikers. 
 

the negative connotation like many things in the past when it came to golf swings is from a lack of understanding. As mentioned casting by itself is a bad thing. One who has a good pivot which is proper pressure shifts in the swing will typically have good rotation and that combined with the casting move leads to a proper swing 

One more tidbit I learned from this site, not that I am going to change but interesting none the less. 

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

One more tidbit I learned from this site, not that I am going to change but interesting none the less. 

It is interesting seeing all the things disproved by the use of technology and 3D imaging.   Big ones are ball flight laws, casting/lag in the golf swing, and the large datasets that track how good/bad professionals actually hit the ball.

[Jim Shaw]

20 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

it’s a move that has always happened. Jack is famous for saying you can’t cast early enough. With the capability of 3d we can now see what good golfers do and there is some level of the casting move done by all the good ball strikers. 
 

the negative connotation like many things in the past when it came to golf swings is from a lack of understanding. As mentioned casting by itself is a bad thing. One who has a good pivot which is proper pressure shifts in the swing will typically have good rotation and that combined with the casting move leads to a proper swing 

Good morning, so I went to bed thinking about "casting" and woke up thinking about "casting" I PVR'd Dubai and I have not seen one player doing what I would call "casting". Possibly making a bit more of an extended move from the top but not much. And these guys are the best in the world. Rory is not casting, just saw a slow motion shot of his driver swing. I may be interpreting it differently. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

52 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Good morning, so I went to bed thinking about "casting" and woke up thinking about "casting" I PVR'd Dubai and I have not seen one player doing what I would call "casting". Possibly making a bit more of an extended move from the top but not much. And these guys are the best in the world. Rory is not casting, just saw a slow motion shot of his driver swing. I may be interpreting it differently. 

Here is a video that shows what the pros do. Around the 9 min mark showing the number for wrist movement and how much the elbow unfolds is part of the cast movement.

That is the casting move. Its not something easily seen by the eye or in 2d

 Here’s a pros vs ams shallowing. This is also the case move and Rory is one of the pros used in this video as is DJ who has a completely different wrist movement pattern than Rory. The motion of the wrist and elbow is the cast.

 
With 3D systems likes gear there is no disputing the movements the best players do and that is added flexion in the lead wrist while the wrists unhinge and the elbows unfold 

[Jim Shaw]

14 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Here is a video that shows what the pros do. Around the 9 min mark showing the number for wrist movement and how much the elbow unfolds is part of the cast movement.

That is the casting move. Its not something easily seen by the eye or in 2d

 Here’s a pros vs ams shallowing. This is also the case move and Rory is one of the pros used in this video as is DJ who has a completely different wrist movement pattern than Rory. The motion of the wrist and elbow is the cast.

 
With 3D systems likes gear there is no disputing the movements the best players do and that is added flexion in the lead wrist while the wrists unhinge and the elbows unfold 

thanks, I know a guy that looks just like that lol... if you don't mind can you dumb it down for me? So the takeaway looks a bit outside.. and the release definitely is casting, so the left side has to get "out of the way" so you can get the club back to square at impact... obviously it generates more speed.

[Wildthing]

Jack Nicklaus said the following and notice the caveat. 

His video is here and he quotes something similar to the above although he omits the part  "and swing the club from inside the target line"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZV974MuA_k

With regards the early cast opinions , that might be a 'feel' to prevent golfers from actively trying to hold the lag angle. If you don't 'actively hold' lag angles and you are applying the correct forces on the club to retain the lag angle (using the physics phenomenon of an eccentric force) , then you may not need to use an early cast action.

With regards determining whether an early cast (ie. loss of lag angle between lead arm and club shaft)  is happening, I have yet to see the evidence that shows 'all/most' tour pros are doing this move.

Here are some more graphs:

Dr Phil Cheetham :

Look at the red graph from the 'Top'  of the backswing and you will notice that the lead wrist angle is a plateau, no change in uncocking/ulnar deviation happening in the early downswing until the position shown on the avatar (ie. which corresponds to the vertical green line position on the graph).

However , he does say other golfers (not all) , release it in 2 stages , slightly at first and then rapidly into impact. 

Dr Kwon

The MC on the right graph is the point of 'Maximum Wrist Cock' and happens just before the EDA vertical line which corresponds to this position below (ie. just before lead arm horizontal). There is no early cast (uncocking) happening in these graphs.

Further , one cannot trust the accuracy of 3D systems for subtle micro-moves being used for golf instruction purposes and that's because they are prone to several errors such as:

1. Flawed calibration of AMM and GEARS, especially when measuring wrist cupping and bowing (ie. extension and flexion).

2. Inertial and optical sensors move around on the body , especially near the wrists, where the skin, muscle and clothing tend to slip under the sensors. 

3. Noise in the systems and even breaks in the signal between the transmitters /sensors/receptors.

Addendum:

Looking at that AMG video they are making statements at the top of the backswing of those 'Bowed /Flat/Neutral'  lead wrist golfers that do not make any sense to me.  The clubface is not open or closed to the club path but to the instantaneous 'Swing Plane'.  I have mentioned several times in previous posts that a bowed lead wrist from P6-P7 will tend to cause forward shaft lean and open the clubface relative to the ball-target line.

Edited January 12 by Wildthing

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Jim Shaw said:

so the left side has to get "out of the way" so you can get the club back to square at impact... obviously it generates more speed.

This is just a feel but for me I am actually trying to resist opening up my hips and shoulders as long as possible. I want my pressure to shift left before my backswing completes BUT I don't want my hips or shoulders "spinning out". If I got my left side out of the way it would force me to be out to in, I think. 

6 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Look at the red graph from the 'Top'  of the backswing and you will notice that the lead wrist angle is a plateau (no change, no uncocking/ulnar deviation happening in the early downswing until the position shown on the avatar (ie. which corresponds to the vertical green line position on the graph).

However , he does say other golfers (not all) , release it in 2 stages , slightly at first and then rapidly into impact. 

Dr Kwon

I have watched Dr Kwon's stuff before and it is interesting and I feel like a lot of the Korean women have that kind of "hips first" downswing that his rope drill promotes. I, personally, can play that way but it feels like I have to have waaaay more right side bend in the down swing to hit a draw if I go hips first and hold my lag a little bit more. I think Monte's swing promotes more of an upright move into the ball with less shoulder dip and less hip drive. 

 

Edited January 12 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

2 minutes ago, vandyland said:

This is just a feel but for me I am actually trying to resist opening up my hips and shoulders as long as possible. I want my pressure to shift left before my backswing completes BUT I don't want my hips or shoulders "spinning out". If I got my left side out of the way it would force me to be out to in, I think. 

so wouldn't "out to in" be considered "casting"? 

[vandyland]

10 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

so wouldn't "out to in" be considered "casting"? 

***CAVEAT**** - I am dumb, not a golf instructor, and am a big headcase so take anything I say related to the golf swing with a GALLON of salt....

Yes, that is the "bad cast" where you throw the club out steep. You can "cast" the club (i.e. start releasing the wrist cock) and still be in to out, you just have to cast the club to 8 o'clock, here are some very rudimentary photos I just took to try to illustrate it:

Bad/over the top cast - 

In to out, draw “cast”:

 

Edited January 12 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

15 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Jack Nicklaus said the following and notice the caveat. 

His video is here and he quotes something similar to the above although he omits the part  "and swing the club from inside the target line"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZV974MuA_k

With regards the early cast opinions , that might be a 'feel' to prevent golfers from actively trying to hold the lag angle. If you don't 'actively hold' lag angles and you are applying the correct forces on the club to retain the lag angle (using the physics phenomenon of an eccentric force) , then you may not need to use an early cast action.

With regards determining whether an early cast (ie. loss of lag angle between lead arm and club shaft)  is happening, I have yet to see the evidence that shows 'all/most' tour pros are doing this move.

Here are some more graphs:

Dr Phil Cheetham :

Look at the red graph from the 'Top'  of the backswing and you will notice that the lead wrist angle is a plateau, no change in uncocking/ulnar deviation happening in the early downswing until the position shown on the avatar (ie. which corresponds to the vertical green line position on the graph).

However , he does say other golfers (not all) , release it in 2 stages , slightly at first and then rapidly into impact. 

Dr Kwon

The MC on the right graph is the point of 'Maximum Wrist Cock' and happens just before the EDA vertical line which corresponds to this position below (ie. just before lead arm horizontal). There is no early cast (uncocking) happening in these graphs.

Further , one cannot trust the accuracy of 3D systems for subtle micro-moves being used for golf instruction purposes and that's because they are prone to several errors such as:

1. Flawed calibration of AMM and GEARS, especially when measure wrist cupping and bowing (ie. extension and flexion).

2. Inertial and optical sensors move around on the body , especially near the wrists, where the skin, muscle and clothing tend to slip under the sensors. 

3. Noise in the systems and even breaks in the signal between the transmitters /sensors/receptors.

 

interesting...

[Jim Shaw]

4 minutes ago, vandyland said:

***CAVEAT**** - I am dumb, not a golf instructor, and am a big headcase so take anything I say related to the golf swing with a GALLON of salt....

Yes, that is the "bad cast" where you throw the club out steep. You can "cast" the club (i.e. start releasing the wrist cock) and still be in to out, you just have to cast the club to 8 o'clock, here are some very rudimentary photos I just took to try to illustrate it:

Bad/over the top cast - 

In to out, draw “cast”:

lol, you are not "dumb or a head case" as far as I am concerned, I love the fact that you are putting yourself out there to try and figure out this crazy thing called a golf swing.

I am absolutely against casting of any sort (as you have probably gathered). If "releasing" the wrists further down the downswing is considered casting then ok, cast away, just do not cast from the top... just my mindset and training. 

[vandyland]

1 minute ago, Jim Shaw said:

I am absolutely against casting of any sort (as you have probably gathered). If "releasing" the wrists further down the downswing is considered casting then ok, cast away, just do not cast from the top... just my mindset and training. 

For sure, you have found feels and fundamentals that have gotten you to a very high level in amateur golf. I am not trying to evangelize casting as the end all be all, it is just a feel that seems to work for me I just have to get my body to cooperate with it.

I am actually feeling quite positive about my golf swing at the moment. I think the changes I made to my setup and backswing are really all I am "overhauling", the downswing feel is unchanged except that now I really have to do it. Previously I was so flat in my backswing that as long as I didn't snatch at it over the top, I was coming in to the ball from the inside. Now that my hands are a little higher and I set my wrists more, I have to cast more deliberately (or at least feel like I do) and keep my body closed to allow my arms to stay in front of my body. Hopefully I can play this weekend even as much of the country (us included) is getting swept up in a cold snap.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

so wouldn't "out to in" be considered "casting"? 

Casting isn’t necessarily the path. Someone that casts and doesn’t may come from the outside, or because of where the club is they may compensate another way and end up dumping the right side to shallow and get stick because they are to out to in.

the casting move is the initiation of the downswing after the pressure shift. It’s why in my earlier post I faked about casting with no turn is bad which is where the negative connotations you mentioned come from.

casting with a proper turn is a good golf swing. The problem is that good turn needs pressure to be in the right places.

This has all been measured using 3D data as provided in the videos. It’s not a feel or a drill to shallow it’s the actual movement that happens in good golf swings.

hackmotion data shows the samething.

The amount of flexion added or the uncocking of the wrists or the unfolding of the elbow is all relevant to the individual golfer and where they are at the top of the swing as demonstrated in the first video i posted. There are numerous videos from amg on wrist movement, shallowing, hip movement and pressure shifts using 3d data by amg. Some like to dispute for whatever reason but it’s all there in 3d

[vandyland]

The big outlier in all this is probably Gary Woodland. He has this downcocking move from setting his wrists really late. I would NOT try to emulate that. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 minutes ago, vandyland said:

For sure, you have found feels and fundamentals that have gotten you to a very high level in amateur golf. I am not trying to evangelize casting as the end all be all, it is just a feel that seems to work for me I just have to get my body to cooperate with it.

It’s not a feel it’s an actual measured movement. The drills such as cast A are feels to train the movement. The cast a move itself like many drills is an over exaggeration of the movement. Over exaggeration Is what’s needed to train a change in movement pattern. There are many different feels that can create that pattern.

 

[Wildthing]

HackMotion data was used to identify the early cast so lets look at 3 different wrist patterns that Scott Cowx says he's identified being used by Pro golfers .

The graphs can be explained as per below:

 

The only category that has a bit of early cast including a very small amount of lead wrist ulnar deviation and flexion is type A .  I have drawn little red lines to show F (Flexion or bowing of lead wrist)  and U to represent ulnar deviation (uncocking of lead wrist). 

The problem with HackMotion and other superior 3D systems like AMM and GEARS is the way they calibrate wrist flexion and extension .  The image below is how they calibrate for the zero measurement.

You can see it's flawed because when you grip a club, without 'ANATOMICALLY'  bowing or cupping your wrist, the shape of your hand looks like the image below.

 

HackMotion , AMM and GEARS  will register a measurement of 20 degrees cupped (ie. in extension) for the position above , therefore the graphs do NOT represent the 'ANATOMICAL' reality of your wrist positions in the golf swing. The slopes of the graphs are more important than the actual extension/flexion values and graph A does seem to show small values of cast/ulnar in the early downswing , but remember that there are always errors with devices that use sensors (especially noise and sensor movements).

You will need to decide yourselves , whether the information shown in the HackMotion graphs are enough to convince you to ingrain an early cast action in your golf swing.

 

Edited January 13 by Wildthing

[vandyland]

Glad I got out on Saturday before we got 5 inches of snow here in TN. Played in sunny but 39* weather and shot even par 72! Made 6 birdies but also 6 bogeys so it was a tumultuous round. But overall hit the ball really well highlighted by a intentional 30 yd hook around a tree from 174 yds to 4 feet. Very happy with how the ball was coming out. Won’t be able to practice much the next few days…

 

[Jim Shaw]

59 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Glad I got out on Saturday before we got 5 inches of snow here in TN. Played in sunny but 39* weather and shot even par 72! Made 6 birdies but also 6 bogeys so it was a tumultuous round. But overall hit the ball really well highlighted by a intentional 30 yd hook around a tree from 174 yds to 4 feet. Very happy with how the ball was coming out. Won’t be able to practice much the next few days…

 

solid score, 6 birdies is really really good, clean up those bogey's and watch out 66... I am really happy to see your hard work in paying off on the course. Keep that "feel" of the draw to 4 feet, good muscle memory...