poll: the rules of golf

[JMiller]

I got to thinking about this earlier today when the morning drive started off at 7am talking about the fact the R&A and USGA are reviewing the anchored putters. Now, I am not here to debate if it should be allowed or not across the board, I am willing to debate if the Pros should have a different rule set they play by then the AM golfers. I know that the Groove Rule change sparked a lot of hate towards the USGA and R&A and people are still bitter about it. I think that if the long putter gets banned wow the AM golfers are going to go crazy and just give the USGA / R&A the middle finger and continue to play with anchored putters.

 

In football their are specific rule changes between college and the NFL. The NHL has different rules then college hockey does. In baseball the Professional levels most use a wooden bat, their are some wood only amateur leagues out there but at the college and amateur levels almost all of them allow metal bets.

 

What does everyone here think about the Rules of golf being divided into the amateur level and the professional level of play like other sports?

[JMiller]

I personally don't think it should be done, that is what makes golf different then other sports AMs play under the same exact rules as the pros and can play with close to the same equipment (it's just not normally prototype built for that player like some pros)

 

Did we lose players to the game when we changed to groove rule, I doubt it only the avid golfers even know what the difference between old wedges and new wedges are at this point and to even get spin difference you have to have a good ball and clean grooves with the proper techniques.

 

Are we going to lose people that can't use the anchored putter from expanding and picking up the game? Again I highly doubt that we will lose growth of new players to the game, most people don't really know the rules when they first start playing anyways.

 

Are we going to lose some people that currently play the game that use long putters, maybe but I really doubt it. You can't really use back issues as an excuse for a long putter because you can hold a conventional putter at any posture you want then get the proper length so it stops at your hands. You want to stand upright like Els did with his long putter or crunched over like Palmer and Nicklaus then go for it.

 

Anyone that would like to share their opinion is more then welcome.

[GolfSpy WD]

I have no problem with different sets of rules and I'm sure the OEMs would love being able to push past the .830 COR limit, MOI limit, or reinstate old grooves. Especially if the purposed changes would make the group of four in front of me go faster . In the end, I'd love to see innovation at the amateur level which occasionally may creep into the pro level.

 

The only thing I'd be against is auto-correcting golf balls because there still has to be an emphasis on a good swing.

 

I'm going to reopen the belly putter debate in another thread: http://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/6527-anchored-putters/

[BK in TEXAS]

Yes, there should be slightly different rules akin to the college/pro differences in other sports.

 

Pro's are on "a whole nother level" than the rest of us.....even our low amateurs.

 

The differences don't have to be huge either, just small, reasonable differences.

 

The "groove" rule comes to mind, as does "COR", and that blasted "play-it-as-it-lies-even-if-you-smoked-your-drive-and-now-find-it-in-a-divot." Heck even the pro's should get 6" relief from that one.

[JBones]

I don't think that there should be two sets of rules, for this one reason. 90% (thats probably underestimating) of golfers that aren't pro don't follow the rules of golf anyway, so it would be pointless. Those of us amateurs that do play in tournaments where the rules are enforced are decent enough to not need a different set of rules.

 

Now, when it comes to the anchored putter debate, thats a whole other thing. I think it is going to open up the USGA/R&A to lawsuits from people that aren't able to use a traditional putter, but still want to play competitive golf.

[GolfSpy WD]

I don't think that there should be two sets of rules, for this one reason. 90% (thats probably underestimating) of golfers that aren't pro don't follow the rules of golf anyway, so it would be pointless. Those of us amateurs that do play in tournaments where the rules are enforced are decent enough to not need a different set of rules.

 

Now, when it comes to the anchored putter debate, thats a whole other thing. I think it is going to open up the USGA/R&A to lawsuits from people that aren't able to use a traditional putter, but still want to play competitive golf.

 

I'd say 99% of golfers do play with conforming clubs though. Probably 80% for conforming balls. Many of us do use a phone for score and many use slope in range finders, which are illegal and I personally wouldn't mind being legal at the amateur level.

[Matt Saternus]

I don't want to see us playing by different "rules" but I am all for having two sets of equipment. Let the recreational player use the most tricked out stuff that science can create. If and when they want to challenge themselves, let them buy "regulated/Tour" equipment.

[JMiller]

I don't want to see us playing by different "rules" but I am all for having two sets of equipment. Let the recreational player use the most tricked out stuff that science can create. If and when they want to challenge themselves, let them buy "regulated/Tour" equipment.

 

technically the equipment is governed by the "rules" so I sort of lumped it together. I see you point however.

[JMiller]

I don't think that there should be two sets of rules, for this one reason. 90% (thats probably underestimating) of golfers that aren't pro don't follow the rules of golf anyway, so it would be pointless. Those of us amateurs that do play in tournaments where the rules are enforced are decent enough to not need a different set of rules.

 

Exactly what I was getting at in my first two posts... most golfers will give the middle finger to the USGA and R&A and not follow the equipment rules anyways they don't follow most of them already so having two sets of rules on equipment and procedures really doesn't matter.

 

Now, when it comes to the anchored putter debate, thats a whole other thing. I think it is going to open up the USGA/R&A to lawsuits from people that aren't able to use a traditional putter, but still want to play competitive golf.

 

I don't see who someone could win a lawsuit on this matter even for medical reasons. I'll save my opinion on putters for the other topic just want to touch on it here.

[Flv02]

I personally don't think it should be done, that is what makes golf different then other sports AMs play under the same exact rules as the pros and can play with close to the same equipment (it's just not normally prototype built for that player like some pros)

 

Did we lose players to the game when we changed to groove rule, I doubt it only the avid golfers even know what the difference between old wedges and new wedges are at this point and to even get spin difference you have to have a good ball and clean grooves with the proper techniques.

 

Are we going to lose people that can't use the anchored putter from expanding and picking up the game? Again I highly doubt that we will lose growth of new players to the game, most people don't really know the rules when they first start playing anyways.

 

Are we going to lose some people that currently play the game that use long putters, maybe but I really doubt it. You can't really use back issues as an excuse for a long putter because you can hold a conventional putter at any posture you want then get the proper length so it stops at your hands. You want to stand upright like Els did with his long putter or crunched over like Palmer and Nicklaus then go for it.

 

 

This is what I was basically thinking when I read your first post. I completely agree with you JM. Those set of rules are what makes golf such a great game. Personally, I like being under the same rules as Professionals. Not only does it make it more difficult, but it really opens your eyes to how good these PGA Tour players really are. All I know is that I will always follow the same rules that they have on tour. It just seems more fun for me that way.

[dru_]

I am very much in the one set of rules camp, though I acknowledge that the typical club player is already playing under different rules and conditions than the pros, just with carts, and typical conditions on most courses versus the pimped out, extended tees and difficult pin placements that are setup for a tour stop.

 

But from an equipment standpoint, I don't want vendors splitting R&D resources between 'tour' and 'rec' gear. We already have a caste system in golf between the 'blades', 'GI' and 'SGI' players. Do we really want to further the SGI and GI groups into the land of 'not playing real golf because the equipment corrects so much for them?

[Tyk]

I don't want separate rules, I have not heard a compelling argument that supports such a thing. The reason the USGA/R&A have such bad reputations right now is because they keep sticking their noses into stuff trying to solve problems that don't exist and even if they did exist they are seeking to solve them in ineffective ways. I want to play by the same rules the pros play. I think that is a fun aspect of the game. Of course there will be people that don't want to and won't follow the rules. That is also fine with me as long as they aren't doing it in a match against me.

 

As far as the long putters, I think the USGA/R&A will be making a huge mistake if they ban them. I simply don't see any reason to make long putters illegal. I don't think any advantage has been shown with them and if there were an advantage, everyone can use one. Adam Scott was able to miss just fine even with his broomstick.

[Tony Covey MGS]

This question always makes me laugh. Whether or not there should be different rules is largely inconsequential. What the USGA fails to recognize (likely because it's hard to recognize anything when your head is lodged neck deep in your rectum) is that the majority of golfers are already playing by their own rules. Maybe if they held major tournaments at public courses more often they'd have a better sense of the reality of things.

 

First, let's me draw some necessary distinctions...you have tour golf, you have serious amateur golf (guys who travel), you have club golf (what most of us here play), and then you have the rest of the golfing population whose level of commitment to the sport is all over the map. Incidentally...that last group, that's where the overwhelming majority of golfers (I'd ballpark it at 75%-80% of the golfing population) live.

 

While the first 3 groups largely play by the USGA's rulebook, the majority plays by a different set of rules. Mulligans, no distinction between the various colors of stakes and lines. They take drops for balls lost in the rough and often don't count the stoke because the ball should be "right around here somewhere". Many of these guys keep official handicaps, but commit rules violations either because they don't know the rules (and that's understandable given how complicated and bloated the USGA's rule book is), or they don't care about the rules because the rules are wholly impractical at 11:00 AM on a Saturday at your local muni.

 

While I could sit here and shake my fist and talk about how their not real golfers, and how they shouldn't keep handicaps if they can't be bothered to follow the letter of the law, the reality is, the rules of golf are broken. While it doesn't happen all the time, look at how much time gets wasted on the PGA tour between going back to the tee, re-hitting, various on-course rulings and decisions, and of course, the time wasted by golfers trying to finagle a more favorable drop by any ridiculous means the rules allow for. That's fine for them, but it simply doesn't work for weekend golf.

 

It's not uncommon for guys playing by their own interpretation of the rules to suffer through a 5 hour round of golf. Does the USGA reasonably expect that weekend golfers are going to compound slow play issues by returning to the tee because they can't find a ball, or it landed on the wrong side of white stakes (when they thought it was in). Let's see if we can't make 5.5 hours the standard.

 

It kills me that the USGA worries about something as trivial as bifurcation when it's actually slow play that is killing the game. So yeah...I applaud the recreational to semi-serious golfer who plays by his own rules when common sense dictates he should. I shake my head at the USGA for being too obtuse to realize that there are already two sets of rules in use. At least if they put in a 2nd set of amateur rules, made them simple while granting allowances for the realities of the game (nobody should return to the tee if there's already another group or two waiting to hit), they'd get more recreational golfers on the same page.

 

Let's call it casual rules and tournament rules and get on with it.

[Kanoito]

I'm sure 90% of the recreational golfers can make the switch from a broomstick back to a traditional putter.

Most weekend golfers play for fun, don't know the rules, etc... I seriously doubt a belly putter is going to revolutionize their game.

 

The only people affected will be the 10% who takes the game seriously and the professionals.

 

If you get the pro's to start using traditional putters, that 10% will most likely follow, because they are "just as good" and no way in hell are they going to use beginner equipment.

 

IMHO, ban those things and avoid having 2 sets of rules.

[dru_]

I admit that I personally abuse one particular USGA rule for the sake of pace of play, the provisional ball rule.

 

If I hit a shot that I have any question of finding or being able to play I immediately play a provisional. IF i don't need it, I pick it up, but the time wasted looking retreating, rehitting, and playing out is simply too much time to take when other people are on the course, so I don't do it.

 

This means that in a typical round, I'll hit 5-6 provisionals.

 

It's within the 'letter' of the law, but I don't think it is really the 'intent' of the law.

[revkev]

JP I've seen your cry for technical help in several spots and wish I could be of assistance but can't.

 

I voted no but I really don't care that much. I could live with differing sets of rules and to T's point the reality is that many of the rules are simply not praciitcal. They come from a day when 200 was a long drive, when courses weren't very crowded and the players were generally of the hit it and move on variety.

 

I'm fortunate enough to play 90 percent of my tournament golf on a course where it is almost impossible to have a lost ball by surprise. Most of the areas where a ball could be lost are already marked as hazzards so you're either hitting a provisional or able to drop with no further to do. I'm also very fortunate that I play in a game weekly and another game occasionally where participants play by the rules - so I play by the rules far more often than not. I do on occasion play casual rounds and see the need for that differentiation - but frankly most players who play only casual rounds don't have handicaps any way or they play enough rounds by the rules that their handicaps are somewhat viable.

 

So onto the question of bifurcation - I played baseball in High School and college, we used different rules than they did in MLB. We played fewer innings in High School and in college when we played double headers, among other things. But we played baseball. While I find it enjoyable that I'm bound by the same rules as the guys on the PGA the practical reality is - I'm not - I've played tour venues and there are significant differences between the course that I've played and the one that they do - for starters the bunkers aren't perfectly raked when I play there, there are no grandstands with prefered drop areas - I did play Brown Deer park once when the grandstands were up and loved a drop that I got - had that grandstand not been there I might still be hacking away at my ball - as it was I made bogey.

 

The groove thing is a joke because it doesn't govern me yet and because it is reactive rather than proactive - In fact we still don't know that it has had it's desired effect and we're into year 3 of it.

 

The rules need to be adjusted and simplified to reflect the state of the game far more than they need to be adjusted to reign the pros in - I don't really care what they shoot - I enjoyed the Open as much as the US Open - didn't bother me that goes were shooting scores in the 60's - frankly it never even entered my mind. It seems to me that the Open and the Master's are far better at determining the best players than the US Open is.

 

So I voted to keep them the same but it's a soft vote for me - I think there are huge issues with the rules that fail to take into account the state of the game today. Having written that I do my best to play by them.

[RoverRick]

There are rules for golf?

 

Who would have thunk it?

 

Seriously, I think one set of rules are great, the pro's should get two off the first tee, roll the ball around in the fairway, and inside the leather is a gimme.

 

Well, maybe not, I have to agree that most AM's could care less about the real rules of golf. There are more local rules that bypass the official rules and every group plays their own rules. As far as equipment rules for AM's. Seriously? Half of them can not tell you the color of best shaft for them, and it what ever is in the TMag driver or TMag would not have put it in. TMag already did the research. Their is a significant portion playing with clubs that do not need to worry about groove rules because they have no grooves. It is truely laughable.

 

Almost as laughable as the USGA thinking that they regulate "most" golfers. The rule book is more like the speed limit. It only counts when you get caught.

 

Certainly, when I play tournaments where real rules do apply and I play by them most of the time, but with one group I play with, they simply will not play by the rules. If you could find your ball in the center of the interstate (500 yards out of bounds) you could bring it back in with no penalty. I finally got them to admit that was a penalty, but they do not do distance just stroke. But these are just fun matches anyway and there is always 1 1/2 hours in the bar afterwards so who cares.

[dru_]

I'm with JM, JB & Matt...One set of rules.....Though as T points out, and I've witnessed it too many times to count, a lot of amateurs pretty much make up their own rules as they go along...However they're not playing in tournaments, hurting anyone else & they're having fun...So, who cares?....

 

One question though: I can't vote on any polls w/my iPhone..It say that I don't have permission..Does anyone know why this occurs & how do I fix it?......

 

 

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever........

 

Tou don't fix it with current iOS. The problem has to do with how the survey forms are posted back. I'll do some digging tonight, but I'm pretty sure its's an older bug in the forum software that can be fixed with a tweak to the php.

[JMiller]

I started laughing really hard a T's post that was great comment about the USGA and R&A

[GolfSpy WD]

The problem with one set of rules is many people could become good golfers if they used equipment that helped beyond what the rules allowed. Take for example someone who goes out their first time. With the rules we have now, they hit a driver (slice), take a PS, top off an iron, hit it into the sand, then four putt for who the hell knows what. Now, with rules made for amateurs, they take a very forgiving driver onto the fairway, know which iron to hit because they calculated distance + slope or their fancy gps told them, and then three putt because they're not exasperated.

 

I'm not talking about mulligans here or other forms of free shots, I'm talking equipment for people who just want to go out a few times a year and have fun with their friends. Most people I know are terrified of going to the course because they'll make a fool of themselves. In order to grow the game, the USGA/R&A need to stop being such tight asses.

 

Now, that might piss off some scratch golfers because all of a sudden there'll be more competition, but people who are truly gifted will always do better. And, in any case, isn't the whole point of the handicap system to always have an even playing field? So if everyone's handicap dropped, the field would still be even...

[RoverRick]

The problem with one set of rules is many people could become good golfers if they used equipment that helped beyond what the rules allowed. Take for example someone who goes out their first time. With the rules we have now, they hit a driver (slice), take a PS, top off an iron, hit it into the sand, then four putt for who the hell knows what. Now, with rules made for amateurs, they take a very forgiving driver onto the fairway, know which iron to hit because they calculated distance + slope or their fancy gps told them, and then three putt because they're not exasperated.

 

I'm not talking about mulligans here or other forms of free shots, I'm talking equipment for people who just want to go out a few times a year and have fun with their friends. Most people I know are terrified of going to the course because they'll make a fool of themselves. In order to grow the game, the USGA/R&A need to stop being such tight asses.

 

Now, that might piss off some scratch golfers because all of a sudden there'll be more competition, but people who are truly gifted will always do better. And, in any case, isn't the whole point of the handicap system to always have an even playing field? So if everyone's handicap dropped, the field would still be even...

 

How can the COR or the grooves or what ever keep you from having fun with your friends if you are a twice a year golfer. They make SGI equipment for novice golfers. Not being one I have no idea if it works, I also see advertised balls that go straight also. Who cares if this is conforming equipment if you are going out for the Annual St Paddy's Day scramble and have not been since last year.

 

Those people would not follow the rules if they were printed on the fairway. And if they are playing once a year why worry if they have conforming clubs. All the equipment rules matter only when being competitive.

 

I seriously doubt that you can make a set of clubs that are forgiving enough to give a novice a chance against a scratch golfer by removing all the rules of golf. Unless you are allowed to hit someone else's ball. First one to the ball get to claim it or something like that. Maybe if you combined some hockey or rugby rules with golf rules a once a year player could beat a scratch player.

[GolfSpy WD]

How can the COR or the grooves or what ever keep you from having fun with your friends if you are a twice a year golfer. They make SGI equipment for novice golfers. Not being one I have no idea if it works, I also see advertised balls that go straight also. Who cares if this is conforming equipment if you are going out for the Annual St Paddy's Day scramble and have not been since last year.

 

Those people would not follow the rules if they were printed on the fairway. And if they are playing once a year why worry if they have conforming clubs. All the equipment rules matter only when being competitive.

 

I seriously doubt that you can make a set of clubs that are forgiving enough to give a novice a chance against a scratch golfer by removing all the rules of golf. Unless you are allowed to hit someone else's ball. First one to the ball get to claim it or something like that. Maybe if you combined some hockey or rugby rules with golf rules a once a year player could beat a scratch player.

 

You're probably right, but I'm curious what would happen to equipment without the limits or less stringent limits. Probably nothing for irons, but possibly something helpful for drivers.

 

There are auto-straightening balls, but these aren't mass marketed like ProV1s. If the big names came out with cheap, self correcting balls the pace of play might improve.

[Tyk]

I keep hearing that there should be two sets of rules because most golfers don't play by the current set of rules.

 

What sense does that make? Why would they play by the 2nd set of rules? People are going to do what they are going to do. I don't care what rules (if any) someone else on the course is playing by, but why design a new set of rules for the guys that don't care about them anyhow?

 

Talk about confusing! Every day having to figure out if you're playing by the old rules, the new tour rules, or the new new rules!

[GolfSpy WD]

I keep hearing that there should be two sets of rules because most golfers don't play by the current set of rules.

 

What sense does that make? Why would they play by the 2nd set of rules? People are going to do what they are going to do. I don't care what rules (if any) someone else on the course is playing by, but why design a new set of rules for the guys that don't care about them anyhow?

 

Talk about confusing! Every day having to figure out if you're playing by the old rules, the new tour rules, or the new new rules!

 

I think most of the time when two sets of rules are mentioned it's in regards to equipment. Weekend golfers can break the rules all they want, I really don't care as long as they're faster because of it .

[Tony Covey MGS]

I keep hearing that there should be two sets of rules because most golfers don't play by the current set of rules.

 

What sense does that make? Why would they play by the 2nd set of rules? People are going to do what they are going to do. I don't care what rules (if any) someone else on the course is playing by, but why design a new set of rules for the guys that don't care about them anyhow?

 

Talk about confusing! Every day having to figure out if you're playing by the old rules, the new tour rules, or the new new rules!

 

I think it's worth trying...especially when your talking about the guys who play by their own rules, but still keep handicaps. I believe the reason why so many unofficial "Local" (and I mean local to the foursome) rules have developed is that the letter of the law apart from being at times difficult to comprehend at times, is, as I stated, wholly impractical for the way most golf is actually played in this country.

 

Guys are always going to take mulligans, but if you can simplify what happens once you get off the tee, and drop any sort of expectation that a guy is going to march back there after wandering around the woods for 5 minutes, you *might* get a little bit more universal buy-in.

 

My thinking is the USGA should try and do something that makes it not only possible but practical for the weekend golfer who keeps a handicap, and wants to follow the rules to do so without compounding the slow play problem.

[dru_]

I think it's worth trying...especially when your talking about the guys who play by their own rules, but still keep handicaps. I believe the reason why so many unofficial "Local" (and I mean local to the foursome) rules have developed is that the letter of the law apart from being at times difficult to comprehend at times, is, as I stated, wholly impractical for the way most golf is actually played in this country.

 

Guys are always going to take mulligans, but if you can simplify what happens once you get off the tee, and drop any sort of expectation that a guy is going to march back there after wandering around the woods for 5 minutes, you *might* get a little bit more universal buy-in.

 

My thinking is the USGA should try and do something that makes it not only possible but practical for the weekend golfer who keeps a handicap, and wants to follow the rules to do so without compounding the slow play problem.

 

 

Wouldn't clarifying the provisional rule cover this? If you are in marginal land, play a provisional and pick it up if you find the original ball and be done with it.

[JBones]

I don't see who someone could win a lawsuit on this matter even for medical reasons. I'll save my opinion on putters for the other topic just want to touch on it here.

Casey Martin did it. It would be harder for someone when it comes to the putter, because the argument would be "if you can swing a club, then you can swing a traditional putter".

[Tyk]

In my experience, the guys that are carrying a handicap tend to know and for the most part play by the rules. I do understand what you all are saying about some of the pace of play issues. Our Wednesday league plays OB as a lateral for exactly this reason although I disagree with this actually solving any pace of play issue. However, when you do this, you are potentially hurting your handicap as you are getting stroke and distance vs. drop and penalty. Most of the time for handicap purposes those holes where this happens you are going to be bumping up against your ESC anyhow so it is not likely to be a huge factor in your overall numbers. If you did this all the time it might make a stroke or two difference to one's disadvantage that would be a factor when you played "by the rules". The lower your handicap, the less impact this will have. The higher your handicap the less difference the impact makes.

 

In our 80+ man association at a public golf course, we don't really have the issues that I keep hearing about regarding pace of play or even rules knowledge. We play by the rules and while of course there are the slow guys that can bog down a course, it isn't because of the rules. Our guys know to hit a provisional, in the cases where they have to go back to the tee, it is the wait for the ball search that causes the slow play moreso than the ride up to rehit that is the problem and I don't know what one can do to mitigate that. Guys are going to look for their ball, especially when they "know it is right here somewhere!"

 

I'll be the first to say that our guys aren't geniuses and they probably get some calls wrong from time to time. But usually within a 4-some there's someone that knows enough to do close enough to the right thing by the rules to deal with any situation.

 

My point being I guess that the guys that care to know and play by the rules seem to have very little problem with them. The guys that don't aren't going to care about easier rules either. And I think the same thing goes for equipment. I will be very disappointed if they do ban the long putters as I have seen what difference this has made to so many of our older players. It will be interesting to see what happens within our group if they were to do this.

[RoverRick]

I do not see that slow play and following the rules are mutually exclusive. Other than shortening the time you get to look for a ball. 5 minutes is a long time to look for a ball, and if there are four hackers who are all helping each other look for their ball and then move to the next lost ball they spend 20 minutes per hole. Also, perhaps the lost ball rule in general can contribute. But that is just changing rule that would work for everyone.

 

It is a shame that you can hit a ball 100 yards into the water and get to drop where it crossed the margin, yet you can see a ball bounce near an area, but if you can not find it or it is out of bounds, you have to go back. That is what can contribute to slow play and is a very serious penalty.

 

Everybody saw, at least the video, of Lee Westwood's ball go into the tree. There was no doubt about where it was, however, since he could not see it it was a lost ball and back to the tee he went.

 

The rules are confusing enough with one set. Heck, you already have two different types of hazards. Half the people do not know the rules as it is, so you want to create a different set of rules for people who do not know them anyway and would not follow them if they did?

[JMiller]

Casey Martin did it. It would be harder for someone when it comes to the putter, because the argument would be "if you can swing a club, then you can swing a traditional putter".

 

Well I knew that he sued for the use of a cart during PGA Tour rounds, which I actually agree with if you can prove actually medical issues. I was talking directly about a putter only for a medical reason.

 

Like you said it would be nearly impossible, if you are screwed up that bad how do you make full swings and stay competitive