Should your handicap dictate your tee box selection?

[CPP]

On 8/10/2024 at 11:19 AM, RetiredBoomer said:

I say, play from where your friends want to play and don't worry about it.

That's one way to look at it. Enjoy the game.

[chisag]

On 8/10/2024 at 8:19 AM, RetiredBoomer said:

I say, play from where your friends want to play and don't worry about it.
But that's just me.
I play golf to relax, not to stress myself.

 

... My friends and I sometimes play 4 different tees. 36yr old from the tips (7078), 59 mid cap from the silvers (6722), myself the whites (6264) and the mid caps wife from the front tees (5759). We are all competitive and feel golf is a combination of relaxation being social but very serious for the few seconds it takes to evaluate then execute our shot, then right back to social relaxation. We walk and talk and playing separate tees doesn't take anymore time or cut in to our interaction at all. We all have electric or push carts so lots of walking and talking. 

... Usually we play 3 different tees as the 36 yr (+1) is rarely paired up with the wife but our 82 yr old pard (9) plays the forward tees, my normal snowbird amigo from Chicago (15) played the whites while my 59 yr old Canadian snowbird (10) played the silvers and I (0) play 9 silver and 9 white. 

[Ieuanjr]

With the new WHS system it makes it easier for people in the same group to play from different tees and still be able to compete against eachother. However i am not a fan of setting handicap as benchmark for what tees you should play off based on handicap.

 

I am relatively new to golf (3 years playing), my handicap is slowly coming down (20.5) however i average 260 yards with my driver. Playing off the forward tees on most courses would mean that i would be hitting an iron or hybrid off the tee for most of the par 4s

 

We have all played with a senior golfer that drives the ball dead straight but only hits it 150-180 yards.

 

I personally think people should play tees based off the distance they hit the ball. It doesnt matter if you play off scratch, if you only drive the ball 210yards you shouldn't be in a position where you have to hit a driver on a par 3 from the tips.

Edited August 27 by Ieuanjr

[Rob Person]

7 hours ago, Ieuanjr said:

With the new WHS system it makes it easier for people in the same group to play from different tees and still be able to compete against eachother. However i am not a fan of setting handicap as benchmark for what tees you should play off based on handicap.

 

I am relatively new to golf (3 years playing), my handicap is slowly coming down (20.5) however i average 260 yards with my driver. Playing off the forward tees on most courses would mean that i would be hitting an iron or hybrid off the tee for most of the par 4s

 

We have all played with a senior golfer that drives the ball dead straight but only hits it 150-180 yards.

 

I personally think people should play tees based off the distance they hit the ball. It doesnt matter if you play off scratch, if you only drive the ball 210yards you shouldn't be in a position where you have to hit a driver on a par 3 from the tips.

Interesting point about the par 3 aspect . Had not considered that.

As someone who is slowly working my handicap down, I still can't hit driver much past 230 carry, even though I get plenty of roll out after sometimes.  I don't hit a 4 or 5i very far either, so I don't play them.

[RetiredBoomer]

20 hours ago, Ieuanjr said:

With the new WHS system it makes it easier for people in the same group to play from different tees and still be able to compete against eachother. However i am not a fan of setting handicap as benchmark for what tees you should play off based on handicap.

 

I am relatively new to golf (3 years playing), my handicap is slowly coming down (20.5) however i average 260 yards with my driver. Playing off the forward tees on most courses would mean that i would be hitting an iron or hybrid off the tee for most of the par 4s

 

We have all played with a senior golfer that drives the ball dead straight but only hits it 150-180 yards.

 

I personally think people should play tees based off the distance they hit the ball. It doesnt matter if you play off scratch, if you only drive the ball 210yards you shouldn't be in a position where you have to hit a driver on a par 3 from the tips.

The problem is how multiple tees are situated--usually all in a straight line.
This makes the first shot 285, 235, or 190 yards long
and the second shot the same distance for everybody.
It makes no sense whatsoever.

If you're going to have multiple tees, they should be staggered at all different angles, making the hole equally playable for everybody.

Even then, however, the architect designed the hole to be played one certain way, and that can only be done from one tee assuming one range of driving distances.

That's why I don't honestly believe one course can properly accommodate all levels of players.

If I were building a golf course, it would have ONE set of tees, probable Field Turf,  assuming 220 yard drives,
and have different slope levels and handicap indexes for every level of player.

It goes back to the bowling lane or tennis court.
All skill levels play on the same size.
The club champion and the club pro should shoot somewhere around par.
Bryson DeChambeau should probably break sixty.

 

 

 

[Ieuanjr]

2 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

The problem is how multiple tees are situated--usually all in a straight line.
This makes the first shot 285, 235, or 190 yards long
and the second shot the same distance for everybody.
It makes no sense whatsoever.

If you're going to have multiple tees, they should be staggered at all different angles, making the hole equally playable for everybody.

Even then, however, the architect designed the hole to be played one certain way, and that can only be done from one tee assuming one range of driving distances.

That's why I don't honestly believe one course can properly accommodate all levels of players.

If I were building a golf course, it would have ONE set of tees, probable Field Turf,  assuming 220 yard drives,
and have different slope levels and handicap indexes for every level of player.

It goes back to the bowling lane or tennis court.
All skill levels play on the same size.
The club champion and the club pro should shoot somewhere around par.
Bryson DeChambeau should probably break sixty.

 

 

 

I agree, tee position is very important. It is a massive annoyance for my wife on dog legs when she has 150 to the corner and then a 200 yard shot from the corner to the green.

 

The angles of tees need to be considered on certain types of holes! In the UK I find the red "ladies" tees are very much an after thought and are just put slightly in front off the yellow "mens.

[chisag]

12 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

The problem is how multiple tees are situated--usually all in a straight line.
This makes the first shot 285, 235, or 190 yards long
and the second shot the same distance for everybody.
It makes no sense whatsoever.

If you're going to have multiple tees, they should be staggered at all different angles, making the hole equally playable for everybody.

Even then, however, the architect designed the hole to be played one certain way, and that can only be done from one tee assuming one range of driving distances.

 

... Any competent designer rarely designs a hole to be "played one certain way" and some really well designed holes have multiple options. A longer par 4 may have an open front with no bunkers to allow a longer club to land short and run on or a stronger player to just fly it to the pin. 

... We have two drivable par 4's and better players can drive the green from every tee including the front tees if they have the length. It is uphill and a 90* dogleg left with a lake guarding the front. For most it is a lay up and anything in the 190-220 range puts you in the fairway but you must avoid a deep bunker on the right side which is there strategically to capture any balls playing well away from the water. Short of the bunker are trees and the fairway slopes into them and any slice will find that area unless they start their tee shot near the water. The third option is to lay up with a pw/9/8 iron off the tee to the widest and flattest part of the fairway taking all the trouble out of play but your next shot is another short to mid iron over the lake and most higher and some mid index players have never  even considered that option. 

... I usually find tee boxes to be fair and allow all players to play the hole the way the designer envisioned when they built it. Shorter holes with bunkers in front and longer holes that allow a run on with a longer club or even fairway wood. Distance has an advantage, which I think they should but still be playable for a shorter hitter.

... The unfortunate exception is the forward tees and it can be brutal for older golfers or the average woman. I have played more than a few courses where the first 3 tee boxes are in line and the forward tee is in a completely different spot, like beside a lake instead of forcing someone to play over it. And some of the longer holes with the tee box off to the side of the fairway a good 75-100yds in front of the other 3 tees.

... My home course Aguila in Laveen Az is very playable but challenging from all 3 tees and many holes have multiple options and it hosts quite a few tournaments from the High School State Championship to a PGA Phoenix Open Qualifier. But it is too long from the forward tees for seniors and the average woman that doesn't hit drives longer than 180yds or a little shorter with a poor drive. Four of the par 4's are over 365 and a little uphill off the tee so a good drive still leaves them a longer 2nd shot that their drives. There is only one dedicated forward tee box to change the angle or distance and there should be more, especially on the 380yd par 4 12th and the ridiculous 468yd par 5 15th which should be a par 6. At least it is the only hole with a different tee box with the Sr and Forward tees not forced to make the 180yd carry over a ravine. 






 

Edited August 29 by chisag

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Ieuanjr said:

I agree, tee position is very important. It is a massive annoyance for my wife on dog legs when she has 150 to the corner and then a 200 yard shot from the corner to the green.

 

The angles of tees need to be considered on certain types of holes! In the UK I find the red "ladies" tees are very much an after thought and are just put slightly in front off the yellow "mens.

 

... One of our snowbird starters here in Phoenix lives in Minnesota during summer and plays a blue collar private club.  His wife is a 50 something really good player and has designed her own tees. She has taken the distances from her home course and duplicated them. Sometimes she tees off from the tee box and on the longer par 4's and 5's she moves up to a more playable distance. That means she puts a tee in the ground 30yds in front of the tee box and it makes a huge difference for her approach shot. I think it is a brilliant strategy. 

[Heyweb]

I try to consider which club I’m hitting into the green on a par 4. Rory said Tour Pros hit 80% of their shots from under 150y. So a lot of wedges and short irons. From the Blue tees at my course I’m averaging 129y for the second shot. That’s a wedge or 9i depending on the hole. If you’re playing a 7i or lower into the green I’d say move up. Why make the game more difficult than the Pros do?

[chisag]

8 hours ago, Heyweb said:

I try to consider which club I’m hitting into the green on a par 4. Rory said Tour Pros hit 80% of their shots from under 150y. So a lot of wedges and short irons. From the Blue tees at my course I’m averaging 129y for the second shot. That’s a wedge or 9i depending on the hole. If you’re playing a 7i or lower into the green I’d say move up. Why make the game more difficult than the Pros do?

 

... Depending on your skill level that makes a lot of sense. But even really good players are not Pros and don't deserve to play from the same place without earning it imo. The day I can accurately hit a 300yd drive consistently I will compare my 2nd shot to the Pro's. I also think modern Pro's skew the game and if you took the stats of those not making the cut, I doubt 80% of their 2nd shots are under 150. But again it depends on your skill level OR how much of a challenge you personally enjoy. I like to use all my clubs and while I enjoy hitting a wedge close to the pin there is even more satisfaction hitting a hybrid from 205 on the green for a longer birdie putt. 

... Just personal opinion but I think most Am's should compare their game to the LPGA, not the PGA. The women are so good and so accurate and you see them play every club in the bag for their 2nd shots. 

Edited August 29 by chisag

[RetiredBoomer]

4 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... Any event designer rarely designs a hole to be "played one certain way" and some really well designed holes have multiple options. A longer par 4 may have an open front with no bunkers to allow a longer club to land short and run on or a stronger player to just fly it to the pin. 

... We have two drivable par 4's and better players can drive the green from every tee including the front tees if they have the length. It is uphill and a 90* dogleg left with a lake guarding the front. For most it is a lay up and anything in the 190-220 range puts you in the fairway but you must avoid a deep bunker on the right side which is there strategically to capture any balls playing well away from the water. Short of the bunker are trees and the fairway slopes into them and any slice will find that area unless they start their tee shot near the water. The third option is to lay up with a pw/9/8 iron off the tee to the widest and flattest part of the fairway taking all the trouble out of play but your next shot is another short to mid iron over the lake and most higher and some mid index players have never  even considered that option. 

... I usually find tee boxes to be fair and allow all players to play the hole the way the designer envisioned when they built it. Shorter holes with bunkers in front and longer holes that allow a run on with a longer club or even fairway wood. Distance has an advantage, which I think they should but still be playable for a shorter hitter.

... The unfortunate exception is the forward tees and it can be brutal for older golfers or the average woman. I have played more than a few courses where the first 3 tee boxes are in line and the forward tee is in a completely different spot, like beside a lake instead of forcing someone to play over it. And some of the longer holes with the tee box off to the side of the fairway a good 75-100yds in front of the other 3 tees.

... My home course Aguila in Laveen Az is very playable but challenging from all 3 tees and many holes have multiple options and it hosts quite a few tournaments from the High School State Championship to a PGA Phoenix Open Qualifier. But it is too long from the forward tees for seniors and the average woman that doesn't hit drives longer than 180yds or a little shorter with a poor drive. Four of the par 4's are over 365 and a little uphill off the tee so a good drive still leaves them a longer 2nd shot that their drives. There is only one dedicated forward tee box to change the angle or distance and there should be more, especially on the 380yd par 4 12th and the ridiculous 468yd par 5 15th which should be a par 6. At least it is the only hole with a different tee box with the Sr and Forward tees not forced to make the 180yd carry over a ravine. 






 

There are very reasonable arguments for that view, Chi,

I suppose that in this age of computer simulations,
a gifted designer perhaps could build a course appropriate for most skill levels and types of player.

I would still maintain, however, that the multiple tees wouldn't all be in straight line.
You've alluded to that as well.

[Siamese Moose]

7 hours ago, chisag said:

... One of our snowbird starters here in Phoenix lives in Minnesota during summer and plays a blue collar private club.  His wife is a 50 something really good player and has designed her own tees. She has taken the distances from her home course and duplicated them. Sometimes she tees off from the tee box and on the longer par 4's and 5's she moves up to a more playable distance. That means she puts a tee in the ground 30yds in front of the tee box and it makes a huge difference for her approach shot. I think it is a brilliant strategy. 

My league has a number of 70+ and even a couple 80+ guys. They have the option on a number of holes of doing the same, skipping the tee box and teeing it up at the start of the fairway. On some of the par 5s it makes a couple of forced carries possible, when otherwise they have no chance.

[chisag]

4 hours ago, RetiredBoomer said:

There are very reasonable arguments for that view, Chi,

I suppose that in this age of computer simulations,
a gifted designer perhaps could build a course appropriate for most skill levels and types of player.

I would still maintain, however, that the multiple tees wouldn't all be in straight line.
You've alluded to that as well.

 

...  I absolutely love the course designer of Aguila and his philosophy is make the course playable for the average guy with wide fairways but make it challenging for the better player with strategic bunkering and greens that are difficult to read. Most of the fairway bunkers are not reachable for the average length player, but he has the fairway slope into the bunker for the longer players so those wide fairways are cut in half for us. He uses tiers on the greens and loves visual clues like swales to one side giving you the impression the green slopes away from the swale. He did that on #9 with water on the right side and a big swale on the left and it sure looks like it breaks toward the water. But there are two big drainage grates on either side of that swale because other than right on that swale, the putts break away from the water.

... His name is Gary Parks and I think the guy was a genius (he passed away several months ago ) although back to your excellent point he really needs different tees for beginners, seniors and ladies. 

[JAYER38]

So I can add to this topic from a real life situation now....

Myself(23HCP) and friend(27HCP) played a full round from the Red Tee's yesterday and we usually play form the White's. Average score as of late for me has been 96-98 & his is 106-108. From the Red's I shot an 87 & he shot a 105. 

Without going into any major details I hit 1.5 club longer than him thru the bag usually. So saying that his game did not change much and all his stats were pretty close to the same if not a little better putting than normal. He was using different clubs/lower end of the bag more often making him be more accurate and this is where higher handicaps usually struggle. 

Seeing as his score did not change much at all I think it is proof that HCP does not need to dictate your Tee box only where you game needs improvement.

Now on the other end of this story I believe I could have easily shot low 80's but the heat got to me some starting the back 9 but yes my score did go close to 10 strokes lower. At what point in the game/handicap does this happen and when do you move back a Tee box?!

[Rob Person]

1 hour ago, JAYER38 said:

 At what point in the game/handicap does this happen and when do you move back a Tee box?!

I've asked this a few times, and got varying responses.   From my personal view, and this may change depending on circumstances,  I think that there are several factors that play a part in moving back.

when you can consistently shoot a lower score from the chosen tee box,

 you are always using the same few clubs 

When your driving distance/abilities improve

When you want to challenge yourself.

[vandyland]

20 hours ago, chisag said:

His wife is a 50 something really good player and has designed her own tees. She has taken the distances from her home course and duplicated them. Sometimes she tees off from the tee box and on the longer par 4's and 5's she moves up to a more playable distance. That means she puts a tee in the ground 30yds in front of the tee box and it makes a huge difference for her approach shot. I think it is a brilliant strategy. 

That is truly inspirational. I am now inclined to try that as well. I want to use my analytical work that I did on tour courses and design a "similar" distance test to the tour players. The biggest issue I run into is that even at 6,000 yds a lot of the par 5s I play are unreachable (not that they *should be* necessarily but most par 5s seem gettable for tour players). The other thing I could do is just play all the par 5s from the yellow (senior tees) and not count that score for handicap purposes. That would change all the par 5s I play from:

Hole 5 - 510 yds (not quite gettable with my 260 yd drive) would then be reduced to 473 (now reachable with a good drive)
Hole 8 - 493 yds (on the edge of gettable) reduced to 466 (gettable with good drive)
Hole 16 - 475 yds but massively uphill, not really gettable reduced to 432 yds which could be gettable
Hole 17 - 459 yds (gettable but easily the most diabolical and difficult green on the golf course with 10ft dropoffs on all sides (tightly mown) so reducing it 442 wouldn't make a huge difference but I will take all the help I can get on this hole. 

 

[chisag]

3 hours ago, Rob Person said:

I've asked this a few times, and got varying responses.   From my personal view, and this may change depending on circumstances,  I think that there are several factors that play a part in moving back.

when you can consistently shoot a lower score from the chosen tee box,

 you are always using the same few clubs 

When your driving distance/abilities improve

When you want to challenge yourself.

 

... Rob, taking just playing for fun out of the equation, it should be very simple. Play the tees that allow you to play the course the way it was designed to be played. I would compare it to Little League baseball. You want the pitcher/batter to have a combination that allows both to succeed. Once pitchers get older and stronger the mound moves further away from the plate. Same for the fences. You don't want them so short every kid can easily hit a home run, but not so long that nobody can. 

... Courses have hazards from bunkers to water by design that come into play from the tee as a challenge. For most (ignoring those blessed with prodigious distance) you want to navigate those challenges and be rewarded for a good shot and punished for a poor shot. You don't want them so far away they can't be reached unless that is a strategic choice taking less club, nor do you want them so short they are easily flown over. You can do either for one or two long/shortholes, but not every hole. Same for distance as you don't want to have a wedge into every green nor a fairway wood. So I think playing the tees that provide a challenge while also allowing you to reach the green with a variety of clubs brings the most enjoyment and stays true to the course designer and the game itself. Golf is extremely difficult and that is the draw for most of us. Rising to the very difficult challenge.

... Again, just playing for fun with your friends is a different endeavor so if playing too long or too short produces enjoyment for you and you ain't holding up those behind you, knock yourself out.  

[Heyweb]

On 8/28/2024 at 11:01 AM, chisag said:

 

... Depending on your skill level that makes a lot of sense. But even really good players are not Pros and don't deserve to play from the same place without earning it imo. The day I can accurately hit a 300yd drive consistently I will compare my 2nd shot to the Pro's. I also think modern Pro's skew the game and if you took the stats of those not making the cut, I doubt 80% of their 2nd shots are under 150. But again it depends on your skill level OR how much of a challenge you personally enjoy. I like to use all my clubs and while I enjoy hitting a wedge close to the pin there is even more satisfaction hitting a hybrid from 205 on the green for a longer birdie putt. 

... Just personal opinion but I think most Am's should compare their game to the LPGA, not the PGA. The women are so good and so accurate and you see them play every club in the bag for their 2nd shots. 

It’s not comparing ourselves to Pros. What I’m saying is they hit 8i or less into par 4’s. Why would an amateur play a tee box where a solid drive requires 7i or 6i? That is proportionally longer than pros are playing. People measure against their driver length, I’m suggesting we measure by second club two the green

[chisag]

1 hour ago, Heyweb said:

It’s not comparing ourselves to Pros. What I’m saying is they hit 8i or less into par 4’s. Why would an amateur play a tee box where a solid drive requires 7i or 6i? That is proportionally longer than pros are playing. People measure against their driver length, I’m suggesting we measure by second club two the green

 

... I am a little confused, you say you are not comparing to Pros then compare 2nd shots to Pro's?  There are several layers to this, the first being the distance a pro hits an 8 iron which for may Am's is a 6 iron or more. The second being the long and accurate drive that lets a Po hit an 8 iron for their 2nd shot. Most Am's don't hit the ball anywhere near as long or as accurate as a Pro, so why should they reap the Pro benefits for their average drives? 

... If and it is a BIG IF, you are a big hitter and can hit a long and accurate drive from your tees, then you deserve an average 8 iron or less approach. I am a + index and I don't hit 8 irons on every par 4. The 4th hole at my summer course is an uphill off the tee 439yds and without the wind at my back I am hitting anything from a hybrid to a 6 iron for my 2nd shot. It is the #1 handicap hole for a reason. There are 4 other par 4's I will have a mid or long iron/hybrid into the green. 

... I am an average driver although long for my age at 71 and don't feel I deserve a short iron into all par 4's. If I were a very long driver, which is a specific skill, then I would earn that short iron. Imo just because a Pro hits a short iron for their 2nd shot, that doesn't mean I deserve to imo. 

... All that said, I am all for moving up a tee box and enjoying the game more as long as you feel like it is still a challenge and it allows you to play the hole the way it was designed to be. Plenty of Pro's can just fly fairway bunkers (some of us and the USGA thinks that is a problem) but an average distance hitting Am should not be able to do that. And again, if you are not looking to compete with yourself, other golfers and the course itself but are just playing with your friends for fun, play any tee box you want that allows you to have a good time. 

Edited September 1 by chisag

[sp0rtsfan86]

I think one other factor is how much you know the course.

The one I play regularly has a 9 that is relatively long. Most par 4's are 5 iron or above to get in unless you're averaging 250. I average roughly 230 so there's times I'm shocked to have 8-9 in, but also have had the same hole need a full hybrid just to reach the green on a par 4. If you know the angles, some can be cut down, but that takes time and knowledge about the lines. For someone new to the course in my shoes, I'd say move up a box, then move back once you get a feel for where the ball needs to go.

I'm currently deciding whether to play the championship (for grins) from the tips. It would add another 20 yards. Half the holes it would mean long irons or hybrids, others it means it's no longer a short gap wedge in. Averaging it out mentally, it would probably mean half the holes that are easy become average, and a lot of the holes become unreachable in regulation without at least one wood off the deck. Would I do it normally? No. 

I'm curious to play to see how much a difference it makes moving back a full shot to two shots every hole

[dougfalk]

I don't think there is a clear way one way or another.  I think if you know nothing about a player you could make an assumption that a higher handicap shouldn't be playing from 7,200 yards. But the issue is that a handicap doesn't take into account the strokes gained/lost for different parts of their game. We all know that some players hit the ball 300+ yards off the but have poor short games.  I'm looking at myself here.. I prefer to play from around 6,800 because that's where I feel like I can have a challenge yet still score well if I'm striking it decently. I also don't like being told that I should play a certain tee. I've always been conflicted with this question since I feel that pace of play is one of the most important issues that plague the game today. If playing the back tees is going to influence of play, please play the tees that allow you to keep the pace.

[Heyweb]

22 hours ago, chisag said:

 

... I am a little confused, you say you are not comparing to Pros then compare 2nd shots to Pro's?  There are several layers to this, the first being the distance a pro hits an 8 iron which for may Am's is a 6 iron or more. The second being the long and accurate drive that lets a Po hit an 8 iron for their 2nd shot. Most Am's don't hit the ball anywhere near as long or as accurate as a Pro, so why should they reap the Pro benefits for their average drives? 

... If and it is a BIG IF, you are a big hitter and can hit a long and accurate drive from your tees, then you deserve an average 8 iron or less approach. I am a + index and I don't hit 8 irons on every par 4. The 4th hole at my summer course is an uphill off the tee 439yds and without the wind at my back I am hitting anything from a hybrid to a 6 iron for my 2nd shot. It is the #1 handicap hole for a reason. There are 4 other par 4's I will have a mid or long iron/hybrid into the green. 

... I am an average driver although long for my age at 71 and don't feel I deserve a short iron into all par 4's. If I were a very long driver, which is a specific skill, then I would earn that short iron. Imo just because a Pro hits a short iron for their 2nd shot, that doesn't mean I deserve to imo. 

... All that said, I am all for moving up a tee box and enjoying the game more as long as you feel like it is still a challenge and it allows you to play the hole the way it was designed to be. Plenty of Pro's can just fly fairway bunkers (some of us and the USGA thinks that is a problem) but an average distance hitting Am should not be able to do that. And again, if you are not looking to compete with yourself, other golfers and the course itself but are just playing with your friends for fun, play any tee box you want that allows you to have a good time. 

So I think you’re missing my point. If a PGA Tour pro plays a par 4, hits a Driver and has 8i -W into the green, why would an amateur play a par 4 where they hit a Driver and need a 7i, 6i or more to hit the green? It’s not how far the Pros hit an 8i, it’s that they are hitting scoring clubs 8, 9, PW, Gap etc on par 4’s. So play a tee box where your drives leave you in that range. People determine what tee box to play based on driver length. Fine, but those drivers should leave you in scoring club length. If you’re hitting a 7i as a second shot off a solid drive into a Par 4, you’re playing a course “longer” than a Tour Pro would. He’s not hitting 7i into a par 4. So why would we?

[Heyweb]

18 hours ago, sp0rtsfan86 said:

I think one other factor is how much you know the course.

The one I play regularly has a 9 that is relatively long. Most par 4's are 5 iron or above to get in unless you're averaging 250. I average roughly 230 so there's times I'm shocked to have 8-9 in, but also have had the same hole need a full hybrid just to reach the green on a par 4. If you know the angles, some can be cut down, but that takes time and knowledge about the lines. For someone new to the course in my shoes, I'd say move up a box, then move back once you get a feel for where the ball needs to go.

I'm currently deciding whether to play the championship (for grins) from the tips. It would add another 20 yards. Half the holes it would mean long irons or hybrids, others it means it's no longer a short gap wedge in. Averaging it out mentally, it would probably mean half the holes that are easy become average, and a lot of the holes become unreachable in regulation without at least one wood off the deck. Would I do it normally? No. 

I'm curious to play to see how much a difference it makes moving back a full shot to two shots every hole

Why would you not move up? My course #16 is 409y from Blue. Typically into the prevailing wind. Arccos has my Smart Distance Driver at 245. So a solid drive could be 6i or 5h. That’s the only hole on the entire course I face a shot that long. Rest are 9i or lower. Blues play 6356y. I could move back, but better players are not hitting longer irons into the green in a par 4. If one can’t shoot par hitting scoring irons into the green, why hit a 7,6 or 5i? 

[chisag]

39 minutes ago, Heyweb said:

So I think you’re missing my point. If a PGA Tour pro plays a par 4, hits a Driver and has 8i -W into the green, why would an amateur play a par 4 where they hit a Driver and need a 7i, 6i or more to hit the green? It’s not how far the Pros hit an 8i, it’s that they are hitting scoring clubs 8, 9, PW, Gap etc on par 4’s. So play a tee box where your drives leave you in that range. People determine what tee box to play based on driver length. Fine, but those drivers should leave you in scoring club length. If you’re hitting a 7i as a second shot off a solid drive into a Par 4, you’re playing a course “longer” than a Tour Pro would. He’s not hitting 7i into a par 4. So why would we?

 

... Not missing the point at all and I don't want to argue with you over a subject that is personal opinions. But for one last time what the Pro's hit have absolutely no bearing on what Ams hit. 

If a Pro hits a 330yd drive on a 495 yd par 4 leaving them 165yds and an 8 iron that is the reward for hard work, superior ability and lots and lots of practice. They have earned that 8 iron approach.

If an Am hits a solid 230yd drive on the same par 4 at 399 yds leaving them 169 and a 6 or 5 iron or even a hybrid THAT is what they earned because they probably rarely practice, play once a week and/or simply don't have the skill required to have an 8 iron approach. Of course we are playing a course longer than the Pro's because we don't have their skills. 

... Golf is and always has been very difficult to play well and that is exactly why so many of us are addicted to it. I have had the pleasure of playing with Pro's, Mini Tour winners and D1 college golfers. Even as a + index my game is nothing like theirs. Playing the tips a Mini Tour winner on my home course was out driving me by up to 125yds. Playing the tips and 50-70 yds behind me, he was still outdriving me by 50-75 yds! I would have to tee off from the edge of the fairway on some holes to have my drive match his. 

... Again, just personal opinion and if anyone wants to play the course the way the pros would with their approach shots without putting in the practice or possessing the skill, they are of course welcome to do that. That is one of the great things about this game, you can follow or not follow any rules you want and be competitive or just have some fun. But those of that love this very difficult game and love the life long challenge of getting better while never conquering the game and playing to our individual abilities will continue to embrace the difficulty and if a bad drive leaves us 205yds to the pin on a par 4 for our second shot we will play it to the best of our ability because that is what we earned. And the reward of hitting a nice hybrid or fairway wood on the green from 205 and making par can be very gratifying. But if we miss the green and land in a bunker or deep rough, that is exactly what we deserve. 

Edited September 2 by chisag

[cnosil]

34 minutes ago, Heyweb said:

So I think you’re missing my point. If a PGA Tour pro plays a par 4, hits a Driver and has 8i -W into the green, why would an amateur play a par 4 where they hit a Driver and need a 7i, 6i or more to hit the green? It’s not how far the Pros hit an 8i, it’s that they are hitting scoring clubs 8, 9, PW, Gap etc on par 4’s. So play a tee box where your drives leave you in that range. People determine what tee box to play based on driver length. Fine, but those drivers should leave you in scoring club length. If you’re hitting a 7i as a second shot off a solid drive into a Par 4, you’re playing a course “longer” than a Tour Pro would. He’s not hitting 7i into a par 4. So why would we?

The longest PGA player averaged 320.7 yards off the tee on the measured holes.  The shortest was 280.   Not all pros hit the same club into the greens;  that 40 yard difference will be 3ish clubs different meaning that their will be players hitting 6 iron compared to that 8 iron.    This happens on the LPGA tour probably more frequently.   The longest players will be hitting short to mid irons into greens and others will be hitting long irons and hybrids/FW.   If we look back at the last Ryder Cup,  the course was setup to put the American PGA players into longer approaches because they are not as good at that distance and the European players were statistically better.    Every player has strengths and weaknesses for some it is driver and others it is approaches.  You have to play the course based on how you hit the ball and you can't judge based on professional skill levels.   

I do agree that if you are a weak approach player and and cannot reach par 4s or are always hitting long irons you should probably move up.  

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I do agree that if you are a weak approach player and and cannot reach par 4s or are always hitting long irons you should probably move up.  

 

... One of my playing pards is a high index player and played the 2nd tees at 6403yds. IF he hit a great drive and IF he hit an excellent approach shot, he could reach all the par 4's in two, although on a few he would need his 5 wood. But he is a high index player for a reason and is very inconsistent. He absolutely loves the game and the challenge but after a brutal but successful  chemo and radiation treatment for cancer he lost a lot of strength and dropped 40lbs. I talked him into hitting from the 3rd tees at 5952yds which are more appropriate for his average play. He reluctantly agreed but said he would move back when he regained his strength. He enjoyed it so much more and while his scores have only dropped a few strokes he is playing the course the way it was designed to be played for his average length and has a better look at the greens with his second shot.

... I asked him if he was still gonna move back now that he has regained all his strength and he smiled saying "No, but I might move up another tee!!"  

[funkyjudge]

42 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... Not missing the point at all and I don't want to argue with you over a subject that is personal opinions. But for one last time what the Pro's hit have absolutely no bearing on what Ams hit. 

If a Pro hits a 330yd drive on a 495 yd par 4 leaving them 165yds and an 8 iron that is the reward for hard work, superior ability and lots and lots of practice. They have earned that 8 iron approach.

If an Am hits a solid 230yd drive on the same par 4 at 399 yds leaving them 169 and a 6 or 5 iron or even a hybrid THAT is what they earned because they probably rarely practice, play once a week and/or simply don't have the skill required to have an 8 iron approach. Of course we are playing a course longer than the Pro's because we don't have their skills. 

... Golf is and always has been very difficult to play well and that is exactly why so many of us are addicted to it. I have had the pleasure of playing with Pro's, Mini Tour winners and D1 college golfers. Even as a + index my game is nothing like theirs. Playing the tips a Mini Tour winner on my home course was out driving me by up to 125yds. Playing the tips and 50-70 yds behind me, he was still outdriving me by 50-75 yds! I would have to tee off from the edge of the fairway on some holes to have my drive match his. 

... Again, just personal opinion and if anyone wants to play the course the way the pros would with their approach shots without putting in the practice or possessing the skill, they are of course welcome to do that. That is one of the great things about this game, you can follow or not follow any rules you want and be competitive or just have some fun. But those of that love this very difficult game and love the life long challenge of getting better while never conquering the game and playing to our individual abilities will continue to embrace the difficulty and if a bad drive leaves us 205yds to the pin on a par 4 for our second shot we will play it to the best of our ability because that is what we earned. And the reward of hitting a nice hybrid or fairway wood on the green from 205 and making par can be very gratifying. But if we miss the green and land in a bunker or deep rough, that is exactly what we deserve. 

One of the reasons that I have a love-hate relationship with the statewide senior travel league in which I play is that the tees that we play (a mix of white/gold tees) makes the courses too short for me to the point where I hit my driver a maximum of 7 times in a round. At the course where we are playing tomorrow’s match, all but a couple of the par 4 holes are short enough that even if I hit my trusty 4-wood off those tees, I will be hitting a partial wedge for most or all of my second shots. I actually prefer to play courses where I hit all of my clubs, which means having anything from a 7-iron to a 5-hybrid for my second shots on the par-4 holes, and not being able to reach several of the par-5 holes in two with a hybrid, as will be the case tomorrow if I am hitting my driver reasonably well.

Conversely, on the winter golf tour that I have now played on for almost 8 years, I cannot reach many of the par-4 holes in two shots (even two well-struck shots with a hybrid for my second shot). This is because all golfers, whether they are PGA professionals, plus-handicap 25-30 year old amateurs, or 75+ year old “super seniors” are forced to hit from the same tees. The rationale for this is that there are skins and closest-to-pin competitions in every tournament and it “wouldn’t be fair” for the senior golfers to have a yardage advantage in those competitions.

[funkyjudge]

1 hour ago, Heyweb said:

Why would you not move up? My course #16 is 409y from Blue. Typically into the prevailing wind. Arccos has my Smart Distance Driver at 245. So a solid drive could be 6i or 5h. That’s the only hole on the entire course I face a shot that long. Rest are 9i or lower. Blues play 6356y. I could move back, but better players are not hitting longer irons into the green in a par 4. If one can’t shoot par hitting scoring irons into the green, why hit a 7,6 or 5i? 

See my answer above. I prefer to hit ALL of my clubs during a round of golf, which means hitting some 6 or 7 irons and even some hybrid clubs into par-4s as well as hitting some pitching and/or gap wedges into other par-4 holes.

[Heyweb]

16 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

One of the reasons that I have a love-hate relationship with the statewide senior travel league in which I play is that the tees that we play (a mix of white/gold tees) makes the courses too short for me to the point where I hit my driver a maximum of 7 times in a round. At the course where we are playing tomorrow’s match, all but a couple of the par 4 holes are short enough that even if I hit my trusty 4-wood off those tees, I will be hitting a partial wedge for most or all of my second shots. I actually prefer to play courses where I hit all of my clubs, which means having anything from a 7-iron to a 5-hybrid for my second shots on the par-4 holes, and not being able to reach several of the par-5 holes in two with a hybrid, as will be the case tomorrow if I am hitting my driver reasonably well.

Conversely, on the winter golf tour that I have now played on for almost 8 years, I cannot reach many of the par-4 holes in two shots (even two well-struck shots with a hybrid for my second shot). This is because all golfers, whether they are PGA professionals, plus-handicap 25-30 year old amateurs, or 75+ year old “super seniors” are forced to hit from the same tees. The rationale for this is that there are skins and closest-to-pin competitions in every tournament and it “wouldn’t be fair” for the senior golfers to have a yardage advantage in those competitions.

Your are totally missing the point. Why would an amateur play the same tees? We started talking about where to play from. My son is a +4 playing mini tour and pursuing his card. From all the way back he’s not hitting a 5i on a par 4. Even in his tournaments he’s not hitting a mid iron to the green on 4’s. Regardless of how far he hits it, why would I play farther back when I can move up and hit my drive and be playing a scoring club on the same hole? We’re not hitting an 8i from the same yardage, he would use a wedge from my 8i distance. But he’s not playing courses that require mid irons. So why is an amateur playing a distance that requires a club the pros are not required to hit? Rory said 80% of their shots are from 150y or less. So why are we playing a length that requires more of our shots to be beyond 150y? That’s the question. Not the distance they hit, it’s the necessary second club, regardless of distance, that I am emphasizing. 

[Heyweb]

54 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... One of my playing pards is a high index player and played the 2nd tees at 6403yds. IF he hit a great drive and IF he hit an excellent approach shot, he could reach all the par 4's in two, although on a few he would need his 5 wood. But he is a high index player for a reason and is very inconsistent. He absolutely loves the game and the challenge but after a brutal but successful  chemo and radiation treatment for cancer he lost a lot of strength and dropped 40lbs. I talked him into hitting from the 3rd tees at 5952yds which are more appropriate for his average play. He reluctantly agreed but said he would move back when he regained his strength. He enjoyed it so much more and while his scores have only dropped a few strokes he is playing the course the way it was designed to be played for his average length and has a better look at the greens with his second shot.

... I asked him if he was still gonna move back now that he has regained all his strength and he smiled saying "No, but I might move up another tee!!"  

^^^^ what he said!!!