Liv Golf Central Thread: Events and News

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, RockerFCC said:

All of you who are supporting the current OWGR position never answered my question. Are there players on the LIV tour who are (lets just say) top 50 in the world? Period, are there? If so, you all say they should have no representation in the ranking of the top players in the world? And believe that doesn't legally deprive them of opportunity they would otherwise have in their profession, one they have proven they are equally good at? I don't know man, I think a court will say it's not fair. Regardless of what the current status quo is. They are literally challenging the rules they disagree with. Isn't that how things work in everything if people disagree with the rules of either their or a rival representation? LIV is saying the rules are not fair. The PGAT says it is. Likely, a court will decide one way or another. Everything else, very single argument being made here is just subjective, opinion. Even what a court decides will be somewhat subjective, even if it is based on antitrust, or labor law,  sporting law or whatever criteria they use. I believe a court will at some point decide, and I think it will be for the players on LIV.  I think the PGAT knows this., I think it's why they made concessions and I think we will see more.  None of this is because I like one more than the other, it just seems like common sense to me. 

Many of you are talking in absolutes. I don't like that.

Only a Sith talks in absolutes. 

There are players that would be in the top 50 if they played on a tour that awarded points. The issue js they don’t play on a tour that conforms to the ranking system. There are rules in place that apply to any tour that wants to be recognized in manner that allows the members of that tour to earn ranking points.

LIV management knew these rules when they started and the management team fed the players some good bs and the players bought into naively or not. Choices have consequences.

LIV followed the process of applying for recognition and like any tour it end thru the process which can take up to 2 years. At the end of the process they were denied and had the chance to modify their policies to gain the necessary recognition and chose not to adapt. Now it’s members are stuck playing golf and won’t earn points. Does it suck for the players? Sure. Does it suck for fans who want to see some of these guys compete on the pga tour and/or in majors? Sure for some. Me personally nobody on live makes me want to turn on the tv to watch them play. It’s not the OWGRs fault it’s the players fault for not listening to what they were being told by PGA commissioner about violating the players agreement they all agreed to and signed. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

7 hours ago, RockerFCC said:

Norman definitely has an ax to grind, don't disagree. I think the question in court will be does that define what LIV wants, and is what they want fair to all the players. No one is trying to burn anything down,  and at this point I am not sure they are just the new kids. Maybe they are just saying they think the criteria should be changed to include their playing results in the world rankings. Maybe they are right. maybe they are wrong.

What court case. All the current lawsuits are off the table due to the proposed merger. Do you think they will sue the OWGR to change their policies that every professional tour in the world follows. The Asian tour, South African tour and so on all follow the same guidelines for anyone playing on them to earn ranking points. 
 

they are the new kids as no other tour has come around. Their format for tournament play was fine with the owgr board, the issue is they don’t want to change how one can join the tour or that nobody is kicked off for bad play. So again they are trying to force an exception specifically for them while trying to eliminate professional golf as it stands. almost trying to have their cake and eat it too. Norman wants a single global tour and to tear down the pga tour, while at the same time trying to get the members ranking points under the current system.

what they should do is ignore the owgr and create a new system and host their own majors or whatever they want to call a select few high level events and then convince more people to join them. 

[RockerFCC]

Guess we all have to agree to disagree. I just have not heard anything answering my root question, at least nothing that doesn't fall back on the same talking points, which don't address the problem and don't provide a solution. It's fine, and I am sure it will be decided in the court system, at some point. 

[Shapotomous]

I am expecting the Saudis to create their own world golf ranking system and pay buckets of money to the tourneys that use it to determine the eligibility of their participants.  

[Preeway]

20 minutes ago, RockerFCC said:

Guess we all have to agree to disagree. I just have not heard anything answering my root question, at least nothing that doesn't fall back on the same talking points, which don't address the problem and don't provide a solution. It's fine, and I am sure it will be decided in the court system, at some point. 

I'm genuinely curious what new talking points you are looking for. If the OWGR says we will award 25% of the points that get awarded to a "normal" tournament (33% field size x 75% of rounds played) it will likely create more controversy rather than less. If LIV events get 100% of the points awarded to a "normal" tournament that definitely creates more controversy rather than less. If OWGR creates a whole algorithm for LIV then that too only creates more debate as to the legitimacy of the algorithm and thus more controversy rather than less. 

I might be among the few here that hate seeing some of the top LIV guys getting slowly shut out of the majors but I think the real finger pointing belongs at the majors themselves. Thay have ALL the power to determine who gets invited and how people qualify. 

[cnosil]

8 hours ago, RockerFCC said:

All of you who are supporting the current OWGR position never answered my question. Are there players on the LIV tour who are (lets just say) top 50 in the world? Period, are there? If so, you all say they should have no representation in the ranking of the top players in the world? And believe that doesn't legally deprive them of opportunity they would otherwise have in their profession, one they have proven they are equally good at? I don't know man, I think a court will say it's not fair. Regardless of what the current status quo is. They are literally challenging the rules they disagree with. Isn't that how things work in everything if people disagree with the rules of either their or a rival representation? LIV is saying the rules are not fair. The PGAT says it is. Likely, a court will decide one way or another. Everything else, very single argument being made here is just subjective, opinion. Even what a court decides will be somewhat subjective, even if it is based on antitrust, or labor law,  sporting law or whatever criteria they use. I believe a court will at some point decide, and I think it will be for the players on LIV.  I think the PGAT knows this., I think it's why they made concessions and I think we will see more.  None of this is because I like one more than the other, it just seems like common sense to me. 

Many of you are talking in absolutes. I don't like that.

Only a Sith talks in absolutes. 

I am neither for or against the current ranking system because it really doesn’t matter to me.  My answers come from my view If I try to look at it objectively and not about the PGA Tour or LIV.   
to answer your question about are there top 50 players on the liv tour:  todays answer is yes.  But let’s look forward 10 years and assume the system is still the same.  Will there be top 50 players on the LIV tour?  How will you know for sure?   Let’s look at it a different way, are they any current college players that should be ranked in the top 50?   How did you make that decision?   
 

is there a model in LIV that allow players from outside that tour to qualify for an individual event?   If not how do you assess strength of field to award points?   
 

yes, the courts will ultimately decide. It you are being just as closed minded on OWGR as everyone else.   How about we get rid of the system entirely and everyone  has to “Monday qualify” for every event? No ranking, no tier system, no special events just play on Monday and see if you can even play in the tournament? 

[fixyurdivot]

40 minutes ago, cnosil said:

yes, the courts will ultimately decide. It you are being just as closed minded on OWGR as everyone else.   How about we get rid of the system entirely and everyone  has to “Monday qualify” for every event? No ranking, no tier system, no special events just play on Monday and see if you can even play in the tournament? 

Love it.  What I wouldn't pay to see the look on the faces of the tours prima-donna's when that's announced .

[DaveP043]

 

9 hours ago, RockerFCC said:

I think this is probably the best point the PGAT can make in court. But I disagree with your assessment that they are trying to affect changes for the reasons you say. If they disagree with the rules, what choice do they have but to challenge them? Enough time has passed to allow negotiations or changes to the criteria. One can argue it's the PGA tour who won't compromise. I think that will be their court argument

Its more than the PGA Tour, its the OWGR, with all of their participants.  This isn't "discriminations" as I understand the word, its a decision based on the pre-existing criteria for acceptance that the OWGR has decided are appropriate in trying to rank players over 2 dozen tours playing all around the world.  Here are 4 dozen players who knew (or should have known) the criteria for getting into the OWGR system, knew that they were joining a tour that didn't meet the criteria, yet somehow expect the rest of the world to adapt to their choices of format.

9 hours ago, RockerFCC said:

I think ithier argument is based on some pretty recent results in majors. And I think if you took the lower 50% of the PGAT and put them against the lower 50% of LIV it just might be closer than you think.

Their argument has boiled down to "F___ we're good, just ask us", following the lead of their most popular washed-up player, mister FIGJAM himself.  I have yet to read any response from a LIV player that addresses the OWGR's specific reasons for denying them entry, they just say its unfair, or its obsolete.

1 hour ago, Preeway said:

You can’t simply tweak the existing algorithm and then apply it to all tours evenly. The current algorithm is based on the structure that all other tours abide by. I’m still waiting for a coherent argument as to why the current algorithm is unfair. 

And to be clear, there are 24 tours listed on the OWGR website, from the PGATour itself to a significant number of smaller regional tours from all around the world.  LIV could adapt, they choose not to.

 

[Preeway]

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

Love it.  What I wouldn't pay to see the look on the faces of the tours prima-donna's when that's announced .

This would be the best scenario but there is no way you could get the TV money and other sponsors to pony up the same cash if you couldn't guarantee certain stars in the field each week.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, Preeway said:

This would be the best scenario but there is no way you could get the TV money and other sponsors to pony up the same cash if you couldn't guarantee certain stars in the field each week.

But they are in the top X of players so they are the best players so they should easily make it into the event.    
 

translating what you are saying is that golf is about money…to the players, to the tours, to the networks, to the advertisers, to the sponsors, etc.   yet one of the big complaints about players in LIV is they went for the money…hmmmm. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, Preeway said:

I might be among the few here that hate seeing some of the top LIV guys getting slowly shut out of the majors but I think the real finger pointing belongs at the majors themselves. Thay have ALL the power to determine who gets invited and how people qualify. 

There are ways to qualify for some of the majors. The 2 opens have several qualifiers based on rank, exemptions, wins during a certain timeframe and then of course the open. The masters has some as well but it’s also an invite so unlike the opens no outside qualifying 

similar for the pga championship. It’s rankings, wins in certain timeframe participation in the previous rudder cup. They could probably open it up a bit for others but then that would probably remove the number of spots from the pga of America professionals who can qualify.

At the end of the day being mad at the owgr for not allowing an exception for one tour is pointless. The blame is on the shoulders of the players who made the conscious choice to ignore the warnings of the PGA tour commissioner. Whether it’s because they believed what Norman was telling them about how the pga tour can’t suspend them, maybe their legal advice from their personal attorneys/managers or whatever it was. They made the choice and unfortunately have to suffer the consequences. The fans may too by not seeing them at certain events. Personally I don’t think it hurts the pga tour viewership if they don’t play. 

[Preeway]

I think another big complaint from the LIV defectors was the time away from family and the grind on the body playing so many consecutive weeks. Adding a qualifying day would only make that aspect worse. But as the PGAT works to enhance purse money, they would have to be able to guarantee certain faces rather than rely on chance alone. Even Rory and Rahm have bad days. How many tournaments would JT have been in if he had to Monday qualify, lol.

[Preeway]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There are ways to qualify for some of the majors. The 2 opens have several qualifiers based on rank, exemptions, wins during a certain timeframe and then of course the open. The masters has some as well but it’s also an invite so unlike the opens no outside qualifying 

similar for the pga championship. It’s rankings, wins in certain timeframe participation in the previous rudder cup. They could probably open it up a bit for others but then that would probably remove the number of spots from the pga of America professionals who can qualify.

At the end of the day being mad at the owgr for not allowing an exception for one tour is pointless. The blame is on the shoulders of the players who made the conscious choice to ignore the warnings of the PGA tour commissioner. Whether it’s because they believed what Norman was telling them about how the pga tour can’t suspend them, maybe their legal advice from their personal attorneys/managers or whatever it was. They made the choice and unfortunately have to suffer the consequences. The fans may too by not seeing them at certain events. Personally I don’t think it hurts the pga tour viewership if they don’t play. 

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that the majors currently choose to use OWGR as a big determining factor and then wins in majors also gets exemptions for a period of time. The majors can always choose to use a different system so you can't blame the OWGR for not getting into any of the majors.

[DaveP043]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

yet one of the big complaints about players in LIV is they went for the money…hmmmm. 

I speak only for myself, but I completely understand why someone would follow the chance for the hugely increased money.  In particular, I admired Harold Varner for specifically saying that he made his decision based on the money.  I had a few other issues.  My primary gripe is that the PGA Tour players signed a "contract" with the PGA Tour last fall, agreeing to a number of commitments in return for the opportunity to play on the tour, the opportunity to make a lot of money.  Then they threw that agreement out the window, declined to fulfil their commitments, but still wanted the right to play in PGA Tour events.  Sorry, its absolutely wrong to break your contract, break your "word", yet expect the other side to fulfil their side of the bargain.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

9 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I don't disagree with any of that. My point is that the majors currently choose to use OWGR as a big determining factor and then wins in majors also gets exemptions for a period of time. The majors can always choose to use a different system so you can't blame the OWGR for not getting into any of the majors.

The world rankings aren’t as high on the qualifying list for the majors as previous major winners, winners of the players or some other events. Iirc for the us open it’s near the bottom of who qualifies. For the open it’s closer to the top. 

 

 

[fixyurdivot]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

But they are in the top X of players so they are the best players so they should easily make it into the event.

That's true, but Monday is massage and spa day... 

[MGoBlue100]

On 10/18/2023 at 7:06 AM, Preeway said:

Yes, there are a handful of top 50 guys on LIV. Or at least there were. Brooks has proven he still is. Cam certainly is. Anyone else? Maybe. But my point remains how do you compare apples to oranges? LIV is demanding that the OWGR create a new system just for them. You can’t simply tweak the existing algorithm and then apply it to all tours evenly. The current algorithm is based on the structure that all other tours abide by. I’m still waiting for a coherent argument as to why the current algorithm is unfair. All we currently have are grown men complaining that they were told they wouldn’t get points anymore and now they aren’t getting points anymore. 

There are currently at least two other ranking systems including all players on all tours. However, as the PGAT basically owns all the other tours and therefore the board of the OWGR, all of this really isn’t any huge surprise. We’ll see what The Masters does after the new year. 

[Preeway]

23 minutes ago, MGoBlue100 said:

There are currently at least two other ranking systems including all players on all tours. However, as the PGAT basically owns all the other tours and therefore the board of the OWGR, all of this really isn’t any huge surprise. We’ll see what The Masters does after the new year. 

I think if the majors choose to make no changes to their eligibility criteria, it means more about LIV being obsolete than it does OWGR. 2024 will be a big year for golf in many ways. 

[oldguy819]

How long will LIV survive until they conform or fold?

[Josh Parker]

I don't know that they will conform until all options to buy it are out the window.  I was trying to find the article I read yesterday about them having open lines with the open folks now trying to get spots for LIV. It will be interesting to see what unfolds with the majors. I believe only 5 players are in for the Masters.

[PeterHenric]

Little bit of new info on LIV lately. Schedule for ‘24 was released. Cool thing for me as I live in Vegas and they will be coming here. LVCC is a nice course but I wouldn’t say it is in the top 5 courses in the valley. I have friends that are members there so it’ll be curious to see how this affects the club operations. Regardless, I’ll be going. 
 

Rahm and Cantlay could be coming to LIV?! I’ll believe it when I see it but that would be pretty big if it worked out. 

[Josh Parker]

3 hours ago, PeterHenric said:

Little bit of new info on LIV lately. Schedule for ‘24 was released. Cool thing for me as I live in Vegas and they will be coming here. LVCC is a nice course but I wouldn’t say it is in the top 5 courses in the valley. I have friends that are members there so it’ll be curious to see how this affects the club operations. Regardless, I’ll be going. 
 

Rahm and Cantlay could be coming to LIV?! I’ll believe it when I see it but that would be pretty big if it worked out. 

I have seen the articles on Rahm but not on Cantlay.  It's going to be interesting to watch things unfold.  I really think Jay needs to step down after striking a deal that most likely made him beyond wealthy.  

It's unfortunate because I think a lot of players could have gone and taken the money and now feel not only blindsided but betrayed by the tour.  

[PeterHenric]

This is one of the places I heard about Cantlay. Far from definitive but…

 

[fixyurdivot]

Hey, if Phil says it's going to happen...

... the only question is how much will Rahm fetch?  Will he eclipse the half billion mark?  I think that's his minimum and suspect he'll get something north of that.  

 

 

[Josh Parker]

9 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Hey, if Phil says it's going to happen...

... the only question is how much will Rahm fetch?  Will he eclipse the half billion mark?  I think that's his minimum and suspect he'll get something north of that.  

 

 

I read this earlier.....  it would be a big move.  

[fixyurdivot]

3 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

I read this earlier.....  it would be a big move.  

Well, as they say, "where there is smoke, there is usually fire".  Yes, it would be a huge shift and news in the world of PGAT golf.  I'm sure Jon and his legal team are using the reported $1B offer to Tiger in negotiations... you know, assuming any of the now many reports are true.

Jon's like; let's see, I can invest my money into a risky business deal with Tiger & Rory, I could become the new pointy end of Jay's spear and sit on the players complaints department board, or... I could set-up generational wealth for my family and still play tour golf, in shorts, with music, and an extra day off every week .

[Owengeorge13]

I’m a pretty big LIV fan.  This would be huge.  

[Josh Parker]

7 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Well, as they say, "where there is smoke, there is usually fire".  Yes, it would be a huge shift and news in the world of PGAT golf.  I'm sure Jon and his legal team are using the reported $1B offer to Tiger in negotiations... you know, assuming any of the now many reports are true.

Jon's like; let's see, I can invest my money into a risky business deal with Tiger & Rory, I could become the new pointy end of Jay's spear and sit on the players complaints department board, or... I could set-up generational wealth for my family and still play tour golf, in shorts, with music, and an extra day off every week .

It kind of sounds like he wants LIV to change some things so they get rankings as well.  He has always been neutral and kept that way.  He may also be thinking, the PGA has now made arrangements with them so why not take the money and set up the family for life. 

[fixyurdivot]

5 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

It kind of sounds like he wants LIV to change some things so they get rankings as well.  He has always been neutral and kept that way.  He may also be thinking, the PGA has now made arrangements with them so why not take the money and set up the family for life. 

Possibly.  I really can't see LIV (in its current form) continuing past the 2024 season presuming the merger gets completed.  Jon's probably thinking he'll easily be able to pay whatever "defector re-entry" fee is imposed and still have a few bucks leftover.  Cash-in, go play some quasi-tour golf until things sort themselves out, and return to the main tour.  

[Josh Parker]

1 minute ago, fixyurdivot said:

Possibly.  I really can't see LIV (in its current form) continuing past the 2024 season presuming the merger gets completed.  Jon's probably thinking he'll easily be able to pay whatever "defector re-entry" fee is imposed and still have a few bucks leftover.  Cash-in, go play some quasi-tour golf until things sort themselves out, and return to the main tour.  

Agreed