Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[BMart519]

Also for this hole, I am probably playing yardage to back edge when going for it so the right traps are not in play unless it is a horrible shot. Left misses usually travel farther for right handers, which should put you over the left trap as well. Looks like no other trouble back through the green and wouldn't be a bad chip unless short sided. See below for shotgun pattern target for where you want your balls to end up. Anywhere more left and farther to back of green is also possible (keeps all big trouble out of dispersion circle) depending on severity of green slope right to left and pin location. 

[vandyland]

I did get in several range sessions this week as I was testing out this club:

It is a maltby te+ v4 and it plays well but doesn’t really offer me anything above my current irons (other than aesthetics). I did get in some trackman sessions so I have a good handle on my numbers, with an RCT Titleist prov1x.

Not sure if it is that I was hitting off a mat, the fact that I come into the ball closed and inside a combination or something else but my spin numbers seem a bit low. I feel like I should be at least at 6,000 rpm. As long as I am complaining, I would also like a steeper land angle. I have a 34* 7 iron so it isn’t like they are super strong. Oh well. Playing tomorrow. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, vandyland said:

I did get in several range sessions this week as I was testing out this club:

It is a maltby te+ v4 and it plays well but doesn’t really offer me anything above my current irons (other than aesthetics). I did get in some trackman sessions so I have a good handle on my numbers, with an RCT Titleist prov1x.

Not sure if it is that I was hitting off a mat, the fact that I come into the ball closed and inside a combination or something else but my spin numbers seem a bit low. I feel like I should be at least at 6,000 rpm. As long as I am complaining, I would also like a steeper land angle. I have a 34* 7 iron so it isn’t like they are super strong. Oh well. Playing tomorrow. 

Mats drop spin and add launch. Spin with mats can be lower by upwards of 1k or more and launch up by 3-5°.

 

[vandyland]

Well, went into this weekend's round a little flustered about my takeaway and release. Never a good feeling! Anyway, started out double bogey, double bogey with ZERO lost balls (3 putted both greens among other things). But then eagled the par 5 3rd hole (540 yds) so a crazy start. Steadied the ship from there on and ended up making only one more bogey and one birdie to finish +2, 74. Was driving the ball really well but irons felt a little....sketchy. Did a good job putting after the first two holes but I really need to get comfortable on my first move back off the ball. Will need to re-watch the NTC and Efficient swing sections on the part 1 of the takeaway. 

Has nothing to do with the golf but I really like my new golf bag, the SunMountain Mid-Stripe. I need a larger bag that could fit all my clubs and had full length dividers with minimal logos and this fit the bill. Won out over the Vessels (not available in our shop), the Stitches (seems a tad overpriced) and Linksmasters (too small) of the world.  
 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2023 by vandyland

[cksurfdude]

8 hours ago, vandyland said:

.. but I really need to get comfortable on my first move back off the ball. Will need to re-watch the NTC and Efficient swing sections on the part 1 of the takeaway. 

At the other end of the player spectrum, and just FYI ..

.. both Monte and the instructor I've seen at my club have told me almost the same thing - feel like you're turning your ribcage while shifting pressure into the trail heel .. and straightening out the trail leg (staying balanced) .. followed by a micro pause before transition ...

Again just fyi what I was told and have been working on...

Anyway back on topic have enjoyed following along with this thread -- really awesome improvement!!

[vandyland]

A frustrating day practicing but I *think* I discovered something. More and more my shots are starting slightly left of center and drawing (pull hook) which I believe is due to the clubface being too closed to the path. So I believe I need to be in to out (which I am almost to excess) but with a square or even slightly open face to path. Until I get my ball starting right of target I am not going to consider any of the shots a success. Basically a block would be a win right now. 
 

I was tinkering a bit with my stance and I also think I have gotten a little too closed. I feel like I play better with a flared open front foot and I have seen a number of players still hit draws from a slightly open stance. 
 

This session was all on trackman so I didn’t really get to see the true ballflight but I went in there to test the titleist test ball and just had junk swings. I also snuck a kirkland in there hoping to see a huge jump in spin but I didn’t, possibly because I was hitting the ball so poorly. Now I just need to try to swing a little more towards first base without dropping my shoulder. We’ll see how that gets along…

[Josh Parker]

8 hours ago, vandyland said:

A frustrating day practicing but I *think* I discovered something. More and more my shots are starting slightly left of center and drawing (pull hook) which I believe is due to the clubface being too closed to the path. So I believe I need to be in to out (which I am almost to excess) but with a square or even slightly open face to path. Until I get my ball starting right of target I am not going to consider any of the shots a success. Basically a block would be a win right now. 
 

I was tinkering a bit with my stance and I also think I have gotten a little too closed. I feel like I play better with a flared open front foot and I have seen a number of players still hit draws from a slightly open stance. 
 

This session was all on trackman so I didn’t really get to see the true ballflight but I went in there to test the titleist test ball and just had junk swings. I also snuck a kirkland in there hoping to see a huge jump in spin but I didn’t, possibly because I was hitting the ball so poorly. Now I just need to try to swing a little more towards first base without dropping my shoulder. We’ll see how that gets along…

I know when my ball flight starts out right of my target and draws (Lefty here) it's not necessarily a closed face but too quick with my lower body and not working it together with both upper and lower body.

Just a thought

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, vandyland said:

A frustrating day practicing but I *think* I discovered something. More and more my shots are starting slightly left of center and drawing (pull hook) which I believe is due to the clubface being too closed to the path. So I believe I need to be in to out (which I am almost to excess) but with a square or even slightly open face to path. Until I get my ball starting right of target I am not going to consider any of the shots a success. Basically a block would be a win right now. 
 

I was tinkering a bit with my stance and I also think I have gotten a little too closed. I feel like I play better with a flared open front foot and I have seen a number of players still hit draws from a slightly open stance. 
 

This session was all on trackman so I didn’t really get to see the true ballflight but I went in there to test the titleist test ball and just had junk swings. I also snuck a kirkland in there hoping to see a huge jump in spin but I didn’t, possibly because I was hitting the ball so poorly. Now I just need to try to swing a little more towards first base without dropping my shoulder. We’ll see how that gets along…

Based on your other trackman numbers you are a little beyond what is considered ok for path. 1-3° either in to out our out to in is the acceptable range. Once you get beyond that then problems start to occur.

Based on your numbers you are more than likely shallowing with the trail shoulder dipping rather than the club shallowing. This inside to our swing can lead to a 2 way miss. Leave the face open lots of weak pushes and blocks. Close it and pulls, hook and pull draws. The better players tend to know if they leave the face open open the ball is going right so they roll the hands to try to square the face or they roll too much and close it.

It could be your stance is closed, look at dtl and face on to check your setup.

Check what your hips are or aren’t doing and how that js affecting the steepness of the shaft in transition and downswing 

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Based on your other trackman numbers you are a little beyond what is considered ok for path. 1-3° either in to out our out to in is the acceptable range. Once you get beyond that then problems start to occur.

@RickyBobby_PR thanks for your attention to my issue(s)! Yes, yesterday with a 7 iron my numbers were even worse than they normally are:

Club Path: 7.7 (yikes)
Face to Path: -5.6 

Should the goal be to get somewhere more like here (obviously closer to zero is probably better but maybe not realistic for me at the moment). I am not necessarily chasing these conditions but moreso this would tell me if I am on the right track...

Club Path: 3
Face to Path: -1.5 (like half of the club path thereabouts)

My last session I was in the 3-5 range on club path but I seem to be trending more and more from the inside. I will check down the line to make sure I am not dipping my shoulder BUT my assumption (not that I know anything) is that I would be losing more balls right (blocks) from the dipped shoulder? 

Also, RB, you know your trackman stuff so an excessively inside delivery with a closed face is also going to drop my spin right? I am obsessing about having too low of spin numbers with my irons at the moment. Basically, I have to fix my delivery before I can worry about anything else. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by vandyland

[RickyBobby_PR]

43 minutes ago, vandyland said:

@RickyBobby_PR thanks for your attention to my issue(s)! Yes, yesterday with a 7 iron my numbers were even worse than they normally are:

Club Path: 7.7 (yikes)
Face to Path: -5.6 

Should the goal be to get somewhere more like here (obviously closer to zero is probably better but maybe not realistic for me at the moment). I am not necessarily chasing these conditions but moreso this would tell me if I am on the right track...

Club Path: 3
Face to Path: -1.5 (like half of the club path thereabouts)

My last session I was in the 3-5 range on club path but I seem to be trending more and more from the inside. I will check down the line to make sure I am not dipping my shoulder BUT my assumption (not that I know anything) is that I would be losing more balls right (blocks) from the dipped shoulder? 

Also, RB, you know your trackman stuff so an excessively inside delivery with a closed face is also going to drop my spin right? I am obsessing about having too low of spin numbers with my irons at the moment. Basically, I have to fix my delivery before I can worry about anything else. 

No problem. Always willing to help anyone looking to get better.

obviously neutral path and neutral face like be great but it’s not easy and hard to repeat.

Dont necessarily chase numbers but let the swing be what creates the. Monte talks about aoa and launch as two e examples that people chase. His comment is try to make a neutral swing and the numbers will take care of themselves. With most neutral feeling swings on driver will produce a 0-2° up aoa and a 1-3° path. 
 

So look at the swing, see what’s causing the top inside path. More than likely it’s not shifting pressure and in transition a steep shaft from hips moving the wrong way. Right hip towards the ball rather than staying back, possibly pulling on the shaft. It’s going to lead to being stuck which now from a path standpoint  is way inside and will require some early extension and use of the hands to take care of getting the club face square. 

check alignment so that the hips, shoulders and knees are all square. Check grip to make sure something didn’t go off the rails.

9-3 swings are a good drill. Fee together swings with a 7i are also good to help work on this.

Also this video

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

[vandyland]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Also this video

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CroFxXuuzOw/?igshid=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==

That's my guy right there. If he says it, I do it. Had not seen this video (I don't frequent instagram....maybe I should).

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, vandyland said:

That's my guy right there. If he says it, I do it. Had not seen this video (I don't frequent instagram....maybe I should).

Monte posts some good snippets from his various video series or vids of working with some of his students. Also will drop some nuggets using his swing or pros

[vandyland]

Well, I think I was able to make some headway on my path/face issue. Still coming from the inside but I realized a few obvious things:

1) Setting up closed was obviously encouraging more of an inside out swing
2) I almost felt like I was keeping the club open through impact more

But mostly it was setup, here is me setting up closed:

 

And then setting up open:

 

And then setting up square:

 

 

Got my average club path and face to path down to:

Avg Club path: 3.6
Avg Face to path: -1.8

And it kicked my spin up to 6200 off a mat which is pretty good. I could easily overdo it and end up in a non-ideal place but this was a fun experiment to work on and I think it will carry over into my full swing. 

Edited November 10, 2023 by vandyland

[Jim Shaw]

On 11/9/2023 at 4:16 AM, Josh Parker said:

I know when my ball flight starts out right of my target and draws (Lefty here) it's not necessarily a closed face but too quick with my lower body and not working it together with both upper and lower body.

Just a thought

interesting, I find the opposite, when I "pull" a shot drastically off line I fine I leave the lower body behind and use too much upper body. 

[cksurfdude]

14 hours ago, vandyland said:

Well, I think I was able to make some headway on my path/face issue. Still coming from the inside but I realized a few obvious things:

Wow if you could hit draw vs fade vs straight with just small setup adjustments that's a *great* skill to have in your arsenal!!

[vandyland]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:54 AM, cksurfdude said:

Wow if you could hit draw vs fade vs straight with just small setup adjustments that's a *great* skill to have in your arsenal!!

Ha! If only. It seems I can do it on the range and on a simulator but when the pressure of a round is going, I can really only hit a draw or hook intentionally. Definitely not in a place to trust it at the moment.

Swing Thoughts
This weekend's round was one where I was fighting it the entire time with both my full swing and pitching (shot 78 but had a lucky chip-in birdie, could have easily been an 80+). I had that upper body spinout feeling the entire time and I couldn't really shake it. A couple of things that I tried with middling results:

- Swinging out to right field, this helps a tad in small doses but can also lead to dropping the right shoulder so not really a long term solution
- Holding the face open a tad through impact, helps minimize a hook but also leads to weak shots
- Adjusting my stance, this was ill advised because I haven't really practiced it enough

When I got home I went straight to the net (with my son) and was trying to find it. Tested out different release pattern (more of the classic forearms crossing over each other in the follow through, etc) and experimented with earlier, more dramatic wrist set. None of that really solved it. So I went back to my "Monte Notebook" from my golf school and I think it was right there all along:

"Hands need to be at least even/ahead of the trail thigh at shaft parallel in the downswing" or the P6 position  if you will (for context, this is if you have a "face-on" camera view of your swing). Another way to think about this is "fast hands" or "trying to get your hands into your trail pocket on the downswing". 

The above picture is what I am trying to get to (and even that might be *slightly* late) and then someone like Dustin Johnson (who hits a cut and opens his body early) is late with his hands vs where I want to be:

Once I started getting my hands out there early (to me) the following things happened:

1. Contact was much better
2. I felt like I couldn't spin out AND get my hands even with my trail leg, it seemed is an either/or proposition
3. This does bring in the possibility of a massive pull or OTT swing if I am not careful

I was hitting these into the net so I will have to see how these flight once I get on the range. My hypothesis is that they will come out better due to more centerface contact but will have a tendency to miss left of target more often than right. For wedges and short irons this is fine but curious what happens with long irons and driver. Oh well, the exploration continues. 

[vandyland]

Went and hit balls yesterday on my lunch break and mostly hit 15-30-45-60 yd pitch shots to gather more data for the Titleist white box test. I was pitching the ball kind of blah so I looked at my action and two things jumped out at me. (1) It looked a little jerky, not exactly tempo town and (2) my arms were pretty far apart, especially on the downswing. I will insert a picture here to show how dramatic the fold is....

Pretty hard to play consistent golf that way I think. Anyway, I have a plan for this ENTER THE SMART BALL (knockoff)

 

So, I was playing around with it last night and it really forces me to make a better wrist set AND syncs my body up. I believe it is more beneficial for backswing help and really training the trail arm but on small pitches I found it fairly easy to keep the ball in my forearms all the way through the finish. Will be curious if I see better contact and/or ballflight with this but I am committing to using it for the next few range sessions. I went back and looked at Monte's posts on WRX that reference the smart ball and he doesn't seem against it. @RickyBobby_PR do you have any thoughts on the smart ball and/or keeping the elbows and forearms closer together? I would think this would be a good thing almost universally (assuming it is not overdone) vs the opposite which is a chicken-wingy type swing. Anyway, hoping to get some shots in this week out on a range with it to see how I react to the apparatus AND if I can transfer it to a swing without the smart ball forcing me to do it. 

UPDATE: The Smart Ball is awesome (at least in one short range session). Contact was better and the feedback is helpful. I was a *tad* pull-y with the smart ball which I think is a byproduct of not having my trail arm as bent coming into the ball. I could see how this might tame my draw a little bit. I started filming and LITERALLY the first shot I hit struck the flag stick out on the range, which was wild. Not a world beating swing here but this is what a 75% swing looks with the Smart Ball (this is the shot that hit the flagstick). If I can make a comment on what I wish this swing looked like is that I wish my hands were a little higher in the backswing but Monte told me not to obsess over that and just follow contact and ball flight. 
 

And the moment before impact already looks different with the width between the arms:

 

 

 

Edited November 15, 2023 by vandyland

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 hours ago, vandyland said:

I went back and looked at Monte's posts on WRX that reference the smart ball and he doesn't seem against it. @RickyBobby_PR do you have any thoughts on the smart ball and/or keeping the elbows and forearms closer together? I would think this would be a good thing almost universally (assuming it is not overdone) vs the opposite which is a chicken-wingy type swing. Anyway, hoping to get some shots in this week out on a range with it to see how I react to the apparatus AND if I can transfer it to a swing without the smart ball forcing me to do it. 

Monte isn’t against it at all. Elbows closer together is a good thing. It’s actually what is supposed to happen in the downswing. It helps keep the hands in front of the body. There will be some elbow separation at the top of the swing, it’s why from what I recall reading on the tour striker page to not do full swings with the ball. Then in transition/downswing the elbows move closer together again. Iirc Padraig has a video about this. Also one of Monte’s drills for shallowing that I think is in the efficient swing series is to feel the elbows pinch together.

looking at your video while your arms are more connected a few things standout. You are setup closed, probably not the greatest alignment for short shots. You are still being the hands inside on the takeaway which is definitely not good for short shots, and also your left knee is moving forward and bending which isn’t good for short or longer swings. The combination of closed stance and left knee/hip moving is going to lead to that inside takeaway every time. Then it’s going to be to much arm lift to the top, steeper swing, getting stuck and the issues that come with it.
 

All of this is causing disconnect on the downswing and you are throwing your arms/hands at the ball.

This is where the ball comes in handy for you. The shoulder and chest should be what moves the arms and the hips should move much later than they do in your swing. With the ball feel the left shoulder move down and towards the ball without moving the arms. Then as the hands approach the right leg set the wrist at a 45° angle. That’s going to get the shaft parallel to the ground and should be along your toe line. Then it’s a little more should turn a little left arm rotation and you are at p3. Then hit balls from that position 

[vandyland]

44 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

and also your left knee is moving forward and bending which isn’t good for short or longer swings.

On the left knee bend, you are referring to it happening too early in the takeaway and moving forward almost immediately, right? And my hips are turning too early in the backswing.

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The shoulder and chest should be what moves the arms and the hips should move much later than they do in your swing.

On the hip movement, should I be slowing down my hip movement or just allow them turn freely but try to drive it more with my upper body? Monte seems to advocate a "free hip turn" and is very against the whole "X" factor thing (which I don't think you are advocating). I will say that one of the drills Monte had almost everyone do was hitting shots without moving the body from the armpits down (like 30 yd shots). The closed stance came from me trying to slow down or stop my spin out but, to your point, it just seems to make me swing steeper and get my start line more left somehow. Also, monte mentioned that in pitching (for him) an open stance made people more steep into the ball. Maybe I would be better off with a square stance and an flared open front foot (that is how I used to setup). 
 

Also, I feel an impulse buy of Monte's "Power Shift" coming on... 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

On the left knee bend, you are referring to it happening too early in the takeaway and moving forward almost immediately, right? And my hips are turning too early in the backswing.

Yeah. Hips are basically moving in the wrong direction and too early. Almost at the start of the swing and with the left side moving forward you can’t get proper hip depth so you can’t rotate properly in the backswing or downswing.

 

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

On the hip movement, should I be slowing down my hip movement or just allow them turn freely but try to drive it more with my upper body? Monte seems to advocate a "free hip turn" and is very against the whole "X" factor thing (which I don't think you are advocating).

The upper body turns the hips. Hogan talks about this as do other instructors. As the right shoulder moves back the hips will move back and rotate. This is the free moving of the hips.

monte talks about it in this post

https://forums.golfwrx.com/topic/1941988-flat-backswing-below-average-power-and-occasional-shank/?do=findComment&comment=24834017

 

power shift is probably a good purchase. The pressure shift is important and you don’t really do much of it.

Edited November 16, 2023 by RickyBobby_PR

[vandyland]

Also, if I am being fair, I should probably just do a "neutral observer on the range" assessment of my swing. We all do it (or at least I do), we see someone struggling on the range and there is usually some obvious cue in their swing that we can grab on to. "Way too over the top", "flat shoulder turn", "no weight transfer" etc. But do I ever really do that for my swing? Well no, I am not an instructor but....I do know what I have always struggled with going back to when I started playing golf again in 2019. In no particular order...

Initial Issues (2019) - miss was blocks and slices and weak shots right, tended to catch the ball both fat and thin, pitches were always fat
- Lack of hip depth in the backswing (this was the main thing my first instructor keyed in on)
- Flat shoulder turn in the backswing (another thing he turned to)
- Crowding the ball, standing too close
- Late shift/slide into the ball
- Hips way ahead of hands in downswing

Fast forward to now (2023) - miss is pulls and pull hooks mostly, misses are I tend to catch the ball thin on full swings and heavy on pitches
- Still lack hip depth
- Still have a flatish shoulder turn (not as flat but definitely not ideal)
- Setup isn't as crowded but has migrated closed
- Now it is like I have an early shift into the ball? 
- Hips have slowed down a little coming into the ball
- Hand path is very low and inside

So, have I made any progress? Not really . My scores are better but my swing always looks flawed to me. So my solution was to stop filming for a while. Golf is hard. And sadly, at least in my opinion, it is not for lack of trying. I hit balls into a net, on the range, on the course as much as I can. I love to practice but, like a lot of folks, I am not always practicing the right way or the right things and it feels like I am always trying to work on like 6 things at once AND try to play golf at a decent level and enjoy myself and not be bummed out about my golf swing. 

I guess there is always fishing? 
 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Also, if I am being fair, I should probably just do a "neutral observer on the range" assessment of my swing. We all do it (or at least I do), we see someone struggling on the range and there is usually some obvious cue in their swing that we can grab on to. "Way too over the top", "flat shoulder turn", "no weight transfer" etc. But do I ever really do that for my swing? Well no, I am not an instructor but....I do know what I have always struggled with going back to when I started playing golf again in 2019. In no particular order...

Initial Issues (2019) - miss was blocks and slices and weak shots right, tended to catch the ball both fat and thin, pitches were always fat
- Lack of hip depth in the backswing (this was the main thing my first instructor keyed in on)
- Flat shoulder turn in the backswing (another thing he turned to)
- Crowding the ball, standing too close
- Late shift/slide into the ball
- Hips way ahead of hands in downswing

Fast forward to now (2023) - miss is pulls and pull hooks mostly, misses are I tend to catch the ball thin on full swings and heavy on pitches
- Still lack hip depth
- Still have a flatish shoulder turn (not as flat but definitely not ideal)
- Setup isn't as crowded but has migrated closed
- Now it is like I have an early shift into the ball? 
- Hips have slowed down a little coming into the ball
- Hand path is very low and inside

So, have I made any progress? Not really . My scores are better but my swing always looks flawed to me. So my solution was to stop filming for a while. Golf is hard. And sadly, at least in my opinion, it is not for lack of trying. I hit balls into a net, on the range, on the course as much as I can. I love to practice but, like a lot of folks, I am not always practicing the right way or the right things and it feels like I am always trying to work on like 6 things at once AND try to play golf at a decent level and enjoy myself and not be bummed out about my golf swing. 

I guess there is always fishing? 
 

Pick one thing and work on that for months. I would focus on the fundamentals every session with visual aids. Alignment sticks in the belt look and on the ground(one at the target and one parallel to target. Use a club or another alignment stick across the chest. Check that the alignment stick on chest and hips are square to the one that is parallel to target.

The pressure shift is probably one of the biggest but I think if you worked on the takeaway and wrist hinge and got that nailed down then you could work on pressure shift next. You can’t work on all aspects of the swing but working in the ones that will have the biggest impact will clear up the other issues or at least improve them. But work on the things I mentioned then evaluate where you are in 3-4 months and see what needs more work or the next thing to work on.

learn to hit balls from p6 (the first thing monte teaches in efficient swing) this will help with west set, rotation and release. Great drill into a net because it’s not about the result but building the motion

[Wildthing]

17 hours ago, vandyland said:

Also, if I am being fair, I should probably just do a "neutral observer on the range" assessment of my swing. We all do it (or at least I do), we see someone struggling on the range and there is usually some obvious cue in their swing that we can grab on to. "Way too over the top", "flat shoulder turn", "no weight transfer" etc. But do I ever really do that for my swing? Well no, I am not an instructor but....I do know what I have always struggled with going back to when I started playing golf again in 2019. In no particular order...

Initial Issues (2019) - miss was blocks and slices and weak shots right, tended to catch the ball both fat and thin, pitches were always fat
- Lack of hip depth in the backswing (this was the main thing my first instructor keyed in on)
- Flat shoulder turn in the backswing (another thing he turned to)
- Crowding the ball, standing too close
- Late shift/slide into the ball
- Hips way ahead of hands in downswing

Fast forward to now (2023) - miss is pulls and pull hooks mostly, misses are I tend to catch the ball thin on full swings and heavy on pitches
- Still lack hip depth
- Still have a flatish shoulder turn (not as flat but definitely not ideal)
- Setup isn't as crowded but has migrated closed
- Now it is like I have an early shift into the ball? 
- Hips have slowed down a little coming into the ball
- Hand path is very low and inside

So, have I made any progress? Not really . My scores are better but my swing always looks flawed to me. So my solution was to stop filming for a while. Golf is hard. And sadly, at least in my opinion, it is not for lack of trying. I hit balls into a net, on the range, on the course as much as I can. I love to practice but, like a lot of folks, I am not always practicing the right way or the right things and it feels like I am always trying to work on like 6 things at once AND try to play golf at a decent level and enjoy myself and not be bummed out about my golf swing. 

I guess there is always fishing? 
 

Why do you think your swing is flawed when your a 2.2 Hcp?  Many of us will never improve our handicap to anywhere near your achievement.

Addendum:  Just read an earlier post from you showing your handicap has increased to 6+  but that's still very good. In fact , after reading through more recent posts , it's gone down to 2.8 so it varies by only about 3 or 4  over a period of 2-3 years.

Edited November 17, 2023 by Wildthing

[vandyland]

@Wildthing that is nice of you to say. I think part of it is obsession and part of it is a feeling that I could lose my swing at any minute. This hip depth issue is something I have always played around. Every year or so I compare (dangerous I know) my swing against a bunch of good players and “swings I like” and the hip depth always jumps out.

As well as the flat shoulder turn and low hands. I have been playing well for the last several months but for both form and functions sake, I think I need to see something more like this at the top:

Which I can do, but obviously I then have a bunch of compensations to fix after that (like my early extension which I have made work for the last 6 months). Trail knee is close to being locked out (not quite) but other than that it is a lot better:

 

[Jim Shaw]

23 hours ago, vandyland said:

Also, if I am being fair, I should probably just do a "neutral observer on the range" assessment of my swing. We all do it (or at least I do), we see someone struggling on the range and there is usually some obvious cue in their swing that we can grab on to. "Way too over the top", "flat shoulder turn", "no weight transfer" etc. But do I ever really do that for my swing? Well no, I am not an instructor but....I do know what I have always struggled with going back to when I started playing golf again in 2019. In no particular order...

Initial Issues (2019) - miss was blocks and slices and weak shots right, tended to catch the ball both fat and thin, pitches were always fat
- Lack of hip depth in the backswing (this was the main thing my first instructor keyed in on)
- Flat shoulder turn in the backswing (another thing he turned to)
- Crowding the ball, standing too close
- Late shift/slide into the ball
- Hips way ahead of hands in downswing

Fast forward to now (2023) - miss is pulls and pull hooks mostly, misses are I tend to catch the ball thin on full swings and heavy on pitches
- Still lack hip depth
- Still have a flatish shoulder turn (not as flat but definitely not ideal)
- Setup isn't as crowded but has migrated closed
- Now it is like I have an early shift into the ball? 
- Hips have slowed down a little coming into the ball
- Hand path is very low and inside

So, have I made any progress? Not really . My scores are better but my swing always looks flawed to me. So my solution was to stop filming for a while. Golf is hard. And sadly, at least in my opinion, it is not for lack of trying. I hit balls into a net, on the range, on the course as much as I can. I love to practice but, like a lot of folks, I am not always practicing the right way or the right things and it feels like I am always trying to work on like 6 things at once AND try to play golf at a decent level and enjoy myself and not be bummed out about my golf swing. 

I guess there is always fishing? 
 

lots to digest in this post, how long ago did your instructor mention your "hip depth"? In all my years of playing I have never heard that mentioned.

Do you hit the centre of the club face with a "flatter swing"? Everyone and I mean everyone, even the best in the world have different swings, find the one that works for you, write down the "moves" that work and go with that.

Standing too close to the ball happens to the best of us, we tend to creep in a bit and, in my opinion at least with me, as I creep closer and I mean by 1/2 inch increments, I seem to hit the ball more solid, but eventually I have crept in too far and have to go back to standing a bit further away, plus I am getting fatter as I get older and need to clear my stomach out of the way to have to stand back a bit.

Like @Wildthing stated, you are in the top 5% of all golfers in the world with your index. from 10,000 feet and not knowing your stats, I bet if you focused on short game and putting you could get your desired results. 

Good luck and great post, and I see by your pictures you don't have the "round belly" issue lol

[Wildthing]

Hip depth could be related to the anatomy of your hips but I suspect you could flare your right foot a bit if you really wanted to (which might help). But even little tweaks can affect other elements of your swing , so be careful going down a road which might make things worse. 

[vandyland]

2 hours ago, Jim Shaw said:

lots to digest in this post, how long ago did your instructor mention your "hip depth"? In all my years of playing I have never heard that mentioned.

Another way to visualize (though I think you get it) is when instructors talk about the "wall drill" where you setup a few inches from a wall and aim to get your trail butt cheek on the wall in the backswing and your lead buttcheck on the wall on your through swing. It is my hypothesis (and true I am an idiot in may ways) that lack of hip depth/actually decreasing my hip tilt in the backswing pushes me closer to the ball and makes me come in steeper. This would explain my "miss" which is a slight pull hook. I have learned to play it but it can be annoying, especially on shorter shots. I use Rickie Fowler as a proxy because he has a flatish swing like I have (his used to be insanely flat). Anyway, here you can see his trail hip goes back slightly but also his hips tilt down as well. So his trail hip went back AND up. In order to even keep that hip in the same place in the back swing (never mind getting deeper) I have to feel like I shove it back. 

I am very proud of my run of form the last few months and I know I am messing with it but chasing "angles" or "aesthetics" in a swing. It is one of the reasons they tell ams not to look at their swings too often and I avoided it for a while. Now that I am here, I am not sure I can leave it alone without at least pursuing it a bit. It is basically off season here (you can play year round in Nashville but temps start to average 40-50 degrees on "good" days in December) so it feels like an opportune time to tinker. Thank you for your comments @Jim Shaw and I definitely could use better short game and putting. I consistently lose strokes there. Driving is what typically saves me. 

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

But even little tweaks can affect other elements of your swing , so be careful going down a road which might make things worse. 

1000%. I am sure I have learned to compensate for my "goat humping" swing and I will probably suck for a while trying to "fix" this. I should set a reminder for 3 months from now where you have a good chance of me saying " @Wildthing you were right, I wasted some time here." I hope that is not the case but I recognize it as a possibility. I think what I would hope this would help with would be:

- Ball flight starts either on my target line or just right of my target line (assuming I still have a draw after this change. Currently ball flight is starting slightly left of target line even though trackman shows an in to out path (likely due to face to path which is more influential on start line)
- Ball flight is slightly higher and spins more. I am low spin and lowish flight for my swing speed. While low flight is desirable in certain conditions, I find it is easier to flight a ball down than to hit it really high add to that my low spin and voila, not a great combo. 

Obviously scoring lower would be great, I don't know if that is truly realistic for a dramatic change here. I shoot 74-78 most rounds which I feel like is about my ceiling currently. If I could shoot 72 every now and then, that would feel like a huge win. 

Edited November 17, 2023 by vandyland

[vandyland]

One thing I can cling to, perhaps incorrectly, was when I saw my clean + jerk on camera. I used to do some mildly competitive weightlifting here and there. I could clean and jerk a decent amount of weight and probably more than most people at my weight at the time. My first move of the ground was pretty "loose" and my transition was....inefficient to say the least. Anyway, all that is to say I could have been happy with what I was clean + jerking but refining my clean increased my baseline a decent amount. I had always heard that 85% of your front squat max is where you should be able to get to with a clean and I finally got to like 90% of my Front squat. Even so, I never made it to that mountain top of a 300 lb squat clean but I got a lot closer without really getting stronger. Just more efficient. 

Anyway, I use that as a reason to keep trying to refine....even at the risk of moving backward. Time will tell if this is a fool's errand or not. 

[Jim Shaw]

4 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Hip depth could be related to the anatomy of your hips but I suspect you could flare your right foot a bit if you really wanted to (which might help). But even little tweaks can affect other elements of your swing , so be careful going down a road which might make things worse. 

Hip depth is definitely not a rabbit hole I am going down.

[vandyland]

Nothing is ever perfect but this is closer to what I think I want to see..

 

Hands higher, still moving a *tiny* bit towards the ball (extension in the backswing) and I slipped because I am wearing sandals but this was my first filmed try at the “pro swing.” No idea how that is going to fly on the course, probably will hit some pulls and slices to begin with. Playing tomorrow, could be a disaster. But look at these positions: