Are Marshals An Endangered Species?

[Shlax]

As the title of this thread explicitly states, I feel like Marshals are more and more absent on golf courses and when there are some, they are less and less involved. Am I the only one who has noticed such phenomenon?

Note: Don't be mistaken, this is not a rant on beginner golfers as I have many friends who are beginners and when I play with them, it's my job (and that of any more experienced golfer accompanying them) to make sure that pace of play is respected.

For context, I play about 50 rounds per year and 80% of those are morning rounds on the weekend. I usually play at good public courses in my area where the green fee is neither cheap nor especially expensive and they offer perfectly respectable playing conditions and manicuring. In summary, those are courses where you would expect minimal enforcement of golf's etiquette and active management regarding pace of play.

This season, it happened way too often that the course was backed-up solid which is something very odd considering that I usually play in the first few tee times of the day (let say first 7-8 tee times on average). This is not to mention the few times that I played in the afternoon where some rounds took 5 hours and I even had a painfully long 5h30 round. This phenomenon is not associated with a specific course but seems to be generalized in my area.

During these rounds where pace of play was halted, there wasn't any Marshal to be seen. So I ask: Is this phenomenon specific to my area or it is something that you also noticed in your neck of the woods?

[Josh Parker]

My situation is much different than yours because my home course is smaller and I know most of the marshals.  Ours do a pretty good job at keeping pace of play going and generally speaking when I run in to a group they have been pretty good about letting me through.  Just the other weekend a group of 4 knew they were slower and let 2 groups go by, asked if anyone else was behind and willing to wait if so.

I do agree, if you are playing with beginners then its our responsibility to teach them pace of play.

Now, I do know more Muni GC around me that pace has been pushing 5 hours but they also have marshals trying to push pace when needed.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Our course has them but they don't do anything other than make sure golfers repair pitch marks.

I have been a marshal and it's tough job and most people try to play quick but don't know any better.

I wish some were more active and more engaged in keeping up pace of play but seems I also think there is a difference in my expectation of place of play and how fast the average golfer plays.

[Golf2Much]

I play at a course that can be categorized as a resort course.  Not because it's tied to a resort, but it's the only 18 hole golf course within 150 miles and it's in a popular travel destination.  I also play first thing in the morning and are not the reason that the course begins to back up (we finish 45 minutes to an hour better than the recommended 4:15 hour time listed on the cart windshield).  In the summer, there is hardly a time issue given the overall lower number of players each day.  Ask we are now approaching the return of snowbirds and more tourists, the course does get crowded and playing times tend to get longer.  That's when we do get a ranger out on the course.

Given the difficulty of finding reliable people with some level of people skills, we're lucky to have one ranger.  Does having one really make that much of a difference?  In our situation, it's tough to say.  This sounds a little self-centered, but even though we're first off and help set the pace for the day, we're never the problem even on crowded days.  Most of the men's league know when they fall behind and take steps to pick up the pace.  Having a ranger tell us we're behind is not the motivation we need.  It's more the fear of being reprimanded and ridiculed when we're late getting in and posting scores!  For many visitors, they pay a pretty penny to pay our course.  For many, it seems that premium translates in to some level of entitlement.   Because they are not likely coming back any time soon, there here to have fun and if that takes 5 plus hours of golf and drinking (often more drinking than golf), they'll do it!  All the hounding by our one marshal/ranger won't have a huge impact on them.  As a result, the course slows to a snail's pace.  

I think the starter may also have a say in the marshal's role and overall pace of play.   When I play outside of the men's league and tournaments, the starters are usually very good at getting groups to the tee box at the appropriate time.  However, another responsibility that should fall on their shoulders and is often neglected is assisting golfers select the correct tee boxes to hit from.  Going back to the entitled visitors mentioned above, they look at the scorecard, see 6035 yards from the white tees and immediately go to the blue tee tips.  More often than not, they have no business playing from the tips and in some cases even the white men's tees.  I once played a round with someone who played the tips and had to quit after 15 holes as he lost all of his two dozen golf balls.  Needless to say, that was an excruciating, time consuming round of golf.  If there was a starter conversation upfront, he might have been convinced to move forward saving a dozen golf balls and help keep the overall course pace of play at a reasonable time.

Is there a role for the marshal?  Yes, certainly.  But it's shared with the rest of the staff to give him/her the support they need and the course needs to back her/him up when there's an issue on the course.  Their role is also shared with the golfers.  If everyone does what they should, it should make the marshal's job the easiest on the course!

Edited November 1, 2023 by Golf2Much

[xOldBenKenobiX]

3 hours ago, Shlax said:

As the title of this thread explicitly states, I feel like Marshals are more and more absent on golf courses and when there are some, they are less and less involved. Am I the only one who has noticed such phenomenon?

Note: Don't be mistaken, this is not a rant on beginner golfers as I have many friends who are beginners and when I play with them, it's my job (and that of any more experienced golfer accompanying them) to make sure that pace of play is respected.

For context, I play about 50 rounds per year and 80% of those are morning rounds on the weekend. I usually play at good public courses in my area where the green fee is neither cheap nor especially expensive and they offer perfectly respectable playing conditions and manicuring. In summary, those are courses where you would expect minimal enforcement of golf's etiquette and active management regarding pace of play.

This season, it happened way too often that the course was backed-up solid which is something very odd considering that I usually play in the first few tee times of the day (let say first 7-8 tee times on average). This is not to mention the few times that I played in the afternoon where some rounds took 5 hours and I even had a painfully long 5h30 round. This phenomenon is not associated with a specific course but seems to be generalized in my area.

During these rounds where pace of play was halted, there wasn't any Marshal to be seen. So I ask: Is this phenomenon specific to my area or it is something that you also noticed in your neck of the woods?

Good point, this season I did noticed that there is a lot less of the Marshal than on prior years.

Most of my rounds I would see him at a distance driving around.

[Shrek74]

There is absolute a need for marshals/ranges still. But there are many issues that are hard to overcome these days.

First off you have to find enough people with the proper skillset to do the job and want to do the job. Being a ranger isn't easy in many places as people look at them like an enemy instead of someone that's there to help. Kind of like the Defund the Police people looking at a cop. But they're needed just as much.

Part of the problem, more so for muni's and smaller courses is cost. They have to pay people to be rangers and that can be tougher for courses with much smaller margins than others. They can always ask for volunteers and offer free golf or whatever in exchange, but that's even tougher these days to get people to accept.

Then you have the issue of the entitled golfers who think they can do whatever they want and don't care what anyone tells them. What makes it worse is that when there is a group that has multiple holes in front of them open but won't speed up or let people through. Then they make matters worse when the ranger asks them to either pick up the pace, let people through, or leave and they just become belligerent (or more belligerent) to both the ranger and other golfers making things just that much worse. This has become far too common an issue these days.

Another golfer issue are those that just don't follow pace of play rules. They walk out to their ball, check out the lie, look at the distance and/or obstructions, then walk all the way back to their cart and get 1 club. I see this a lot here where I live (resort/retirement community), and it's that much worse with the older crowd who can't really move as quickly but still do this. Rounds here are almost always 5 hours on the weekends, especially in the summer months when the resort crowd are here in force.

Yes, it's all golfers responsibility to enforce pace of play when on the course. It's just so much tougher these days with fewer (if any) rangers and golfers who don't want to be told to speed up or to be more mindful of their actions and how it's affecting the pace. It's just a much larger issue to solve than just with rangers.

[Stuka44]

 All very good points and all contribute to the problem.  I would say much of it is there are a core of people out their who just don't care.  This is their weekend foursome and they just don't care how long the round takes.  They are going to carry on their conversations, completely oblivious that this is slowing down play.  Also too many people look at the suggested time....4:15-4:30, and say this is how long I have to play.  This needs to be eliminated.   The guideline should be "Your Round should take as little time as possible, without running.  People are simply unaware how time adds up between 4 people over the course of a 4 hour endeavor.  Each golfer wasting 5 seconds a hole for 18 holes is 6 minutes.    Now add in some,  nobody's ready to putt for10 seconds, the 30 second delay any number of  times when the guy occupying the tee box is finishing his story instead of hitting his ball.  This is where golf really slows down.  I understand that its a social event and everyone should be doing it do have fun, but that shouldn't mean you are oblivious to the game.   This is the problem.  Most golfers don't equate these little things with slowing play.

[Big moose]

The course I play doesn't have a ranger it doesn't even have a starter. That's why we have so much trouble with people just playing any holes they want in any order. We get to the next hole and there is a guy hitting 10 balls on the green we are hitting on. It's a joke around here they have always called it the Italian country club. 

[BobBC78]

My home course has starters, but no rangers. If you have a complaint about slow play or other matters, you call the pro shop, which sends someone out to deal with the problem. 

[Dead Solid Bogey]

I am of two thoughts on this… One is that if you are taught the etiquette of golf along with the rules of golf, then the need for a marshal would be minimal. That said, when I am at a destination/resort/ tourist course playing with people I haven’t seen in awhile then etiquette goes down the drain as far as pace of play is concerned. I have played rounds that take 5-6 hours and have loved every minute. We will let other groups behind us go through as we understand that is part of the price of talking as much or more than playing. 
    Even on my home course, there are days and situations that will present themselves when a sub 4  hour round will be as joyless as hell and when +\- 5 hour rounds will be heavenly. We all live and learn. There are individuals that I will attempt not to play with as our outlook on how a round should be played are so contrary to each other. 
 At the end of the day, golf is a game for the vast majority of us and should be enjoyed as such. 

[Preeway]

I'm not sure these days a starter is the solution if the problem is the players don't even know how to play quickly. These days the pace of play is closer to 4:30 than it is 4:00. Which equates to a 5:00 round if the group is playing slow. Simple concepts like playing ready golf instead of waiting for the guy further away is lost on a lot of people. A ranger can't fix that. I also blame the courses that stagger their tee times 8 minutes apart. There is no way you can do that and not have holes getting bogged down. All it takes is one hole where someone has to spend a few minutes looking for a ball or a couple guys get on the struggle bus and take an 8 or 9 and now you have multiple groups behind waiting on tee boxes. Rangers can only do so much and with basic human decency on the decline it truly has become a thankless job. Much like youth umpires and referees becoming harder to come by with adults acting like idiots, or worse.

[Shlax]

24 minutes ago, Preeway said:

Rangers can only do so much and with basic human decency on the decline it truly has become a thankless job. Much like youth umpires and referees becoming harder to come by with adults acting like idiots, or worse.

Great comparison and I completely agree with your point of view as to why the pace of play can get infuriatingly slow pretty quickly.

I was an ice hockey referee when I was 15 until I turned 22 and these years were very formative, to say the least. It’s amazing what people can get away with in terms of socially and morally unacceptable behavior in the context of sports…

I don’t think that Marshals are subjected to the same amount of abuse but it can definitely become a difficult job when people start being defiant.

[Shrek74]

10 hours ago, Preeway said:

I'm not sure these days a starter is the solution if the problem is the players don't even know how to play quickly. These days the pace of play is closer to 4:30 than it is 4:00. Which equates to a 5:00 round if the group is playing slow. Simple concepts like playing ready golf instead of waiting for the guy further away is lost on a lot of people. A ranger can't fix that. I also blame the courses that stagger their tee times 8 minutes apart. There is no way you can do that and not have holes getting bogged down. All it takes is one hole where someone has to spend a few minutes looking for a ball or a couple guys get on the struggle bus and take an 8 or 9 and now you have multiple groups behind waiting on tee boxes. Rangers can only do so much and with basic human decency on the decline it truly has become a thankless job. Much like youth umpires and referees becoming harder to come by with adults acting like idiots, or worse.

In AZ during peak season (which we're entering), I remember seeing some courses doing 5-6 minute tee times just to get as many golfers on course at their highest priced rounds of the year. It wasn't about pace of play or joy of play, it was about making as much money as possible. And it wasn't just 1 or 2 courses. Lots of them do it, which is sad.

[russtopherb]

After seeing this thread I had to think about it... I don't think I've seen a marshal since early last season on a higher end course. I've seen starters, but not a single marshal. Heck I've seen more beverage carts driving around than marshals. 

[Kenny B]

At our muni we have a starter on Fri-Sun during the summer until about 10am, then the starter becomes the marshal.  During the week, no starter or marshal.  Typical rounds take 4::00-4:30, but if we get out early before the Men's Club, my wife and I can play in 3:30... 4:00 with another couple.  Our tee times are 7 minute apart, which can be an issue because the first tow holes are short and the third hole is fraught with danger that slows down play so groups can stack up on the 3rd tee.  Play moves along a little better on the b2b par 5's on #5 and #6, as long as groups from adjacent holes stay out of our fairways.  

Now that cold weather has set in, there are no starters or marshals unless the course has a big tournament.  BTW, our course does not give bennies to starters and marshals (free golf).  The management has made a decision that anyone working for the course must be paid.  I think that has something to do with how many marshals we see on the course.

[Bucky CC]

16 hours ago, BobBC78 said:

My home course has starters, but no rangers. If you have a complaint about slow play or other matters, you call the pro shop, which sends someone out to deal with the problem. 

Same thing at my course.  Even calling the pro shop is no guarantee of speeding things up thought.  A lot of times they'll send out a kid who will drive slowly around the problem group, but they won't get within 150 yards of them in fear of a confrontation gone wrong.  I'd like to think the majority of groups would be open and receptive to a friendly reminder to keep up with the pace of play, but who knows these days.

[Preeway]

34 minutes ago, Kenny B said:

BTW, our course does not give bennies to starters and marshals (free golf).  The management has made a decision that anyone working for the course must be paid.  I think that has something to do with how many marshals we see on the course.

This was a big deal about 5 years ago or so when the IRS cracked down on the practice and told courses they were required to submit a 1099 for the cash value of the benefit so the "volunteers" could be subject to the appropriate taxes. Even since then I've seen a significant drop in those two positions on many courses in our area. Used to be a great gig for retired folk.

[Sam Saban]

It's a last of a dying breed I'm afraid. I belong to a public/member course and we only have a started....Having said that, I have called the pro shop mid round on a few slow groups and they have sent folks out to chat/enforce pace of play..

[Golf2Much]

20 hours ago, Dead Solid Bogey said:

I am of two thoughts on this… One is that if you are taught the etiquette of golf along with the rules of golf, then the need for a marshal would be minimal. 

I joined a country club in Rochester, NY back in the mid-1990's.  They were having a promotion to attract new members to help pay for a clubhouse renovation.  The unintended consequence was that a majority of the new members had very little, if any, golf etiquette.  As a result, average round times went up 15 minutes (which for the single handicap board members was unacceptable).  That winter, the board decreed that EVERYONE was required to take a pace of play/golf etiquette course before the spring, or they would not be allowed to play.  They were serious!  The self-developed course was taught by the board and included the standard pace of play recommendations (e. g. where to put your cart to ensure a fast exit to the next hole, stay up with the group in front of you, etc.) and an equal amount of golf etiquette (e.g. how to correctly fix a ball mark, rake a trap, etc.).  Not surprisingly, in the spring, average round times were back to normal and the course was in better overall shape.

[fixyurdivot]

I would say no.  The "rangers" at our courses do a really good job keeping pace of play moving along, running a forgotten club up to the players ahead, and, in the summer months, offering ice soaked towels .  Generally there are at least two out on each course during peak winter season.  I've played plenty of courses that desperately needed marshals... so I'm glad we have them.

[GaDawg]

In today's society, clubs don't want to say anything to slow golfers or golfers breaking the rules. It might hurt someones feelings.

[Dead Solid Bogey]

1 hour ago, GaDawg said:

In today's society, clubs don't want to say anything to slow golfers or golfers breaking the rules. It might hurt someones feelings.

70 degree plus weather today… Less than 20 players on the course during our  3 hour and 47 min. round. There was one fivesome  behind us,  that was evidently attempting to “ homestead “ instead of playing. It takes all kinds. 

[Love2Golf526]

Most courses in our area do not have rangers.  If they do, we don't often see them.  I think it comes down to two things, they don't care about pace of play or they don't want to staff that position.  Now, if you slide over to the West about 35-40 miles there are rangers and most are on their game. The courses in this area are higher priced but also very well maintained. The starters in that area will also prep you before hitting the first tee about pace of play, repairing ball marks/divots, etc.  In general, I agree that they have faded away but I truly believe they are needed.  Even playing with with good friends who might start slowing down while I'm urging them to pick up the pace then having a ranger drive up and give us a nudge would be nice.  I can then have a "told you so" moment! 

[EnderinAZ]

Starters and rangers can be effective in pace of play only if course management stands behind them. If the marshal knows there is no way the guy in charge will back his actions to move slow players along or kick off that foursome of drunks clogging up the back nine early Saturday afternoon the marshal will not do anything. If the marshal is seen to be useless management will stop using them. It is a vicious circle.

There are so many other ways management can keep the pace of play up. Advertise in the pro shop right at the cash register the expected pace of play. Encourage ready golf in the pro shop, on the tee boxes (all of them), and in the golf carts.  Get rid of that one foot wide eight inch high strip of grass around the ponds. Guys will search for twenty minutes in that strip of grass for the ball the they are sure didn't reach the water. Don't get me wrong I would much rather play a fast green but, the 8 round a year foursome will add 30 minutes to their round four and five putting on 10 or 11 Stimpmeter greens, so slow them down at least on the weekends. Make sure the beer cart girl stops at tee boxes only! Make the fairways wide, trim the trees up ten to twelve feet, in other words make golf fun to play quickly.  

[PeterHenric]

On 11/2/2023 at 6:26 AM, Shrek74 said:

In AZ during peak season (which we're entering), I remember seeing some courses doing 5-6 minute tee times just to get as many golfers on course at their highest priced rounds of the year. It wasn't about pace of play or joy of play, it was about making as much money as possible. And it wasn't just 1 or 2 courses. Lots of them do it, which is sad.

Living here in Vegas, we get to golf year round. There is only 1 non-private course that I have been to that actually has marshals driving around monitoring pace of play. I’ve never actually seen them do anything about slow play, but they are out there. Seems most marshals are more worried about where I drive my golf cart than ANYTHING else. Calling the pro shop on slow play does absolutely nothing. I figure that they just don’t care since they already got my money. 
In regards to your post about courses jamming in tee times, because we get to play year round, we have to deal with frost delays. Not a single public course plans ahead for a potential frost delay by just making morning tee times start later in the morning. Almost all start within a half hour or so of the sun coming up. A standard frost delay is at least an hour or sometimes more so they just push everyone’s times back. They don’t even bother notifying people that there is a delay. Once the course is opened, they pretty much just send everyone to the first tee and say “once they are clear, go ahead and hit your tee shot.” This just jams everyone in and destroys the pace of play. The rest of the day is doomed. 

[ballhawk]

It's very difficult to find someone with great diplomatic skills and a black belt in karate!

Luckily I play on a Military base and it's fairly easy to move folks along..........I marshal at times and when encountering a group of young guys just out for a good time, "Guys your going to have to pick up the pace"- Oh yeah! why? ......... Well you see that 4 some waiting behind you? "Yeah so what" ............."Well that's the base commander and the 2 star that's visiting, so I strongly suggest" -------- "Hey wait I wasn't finished talking".....

[silver & black]

26 minutes ago, ballhawk said:

It's very difficult to find someone with great diplomatic skills and a black belt in karate!

Luckily I play on a Military base and it's fairly easy to move folks along..........I marshal at times and when encountering a group of young guys just out for a good time, "Guys your going to have to pick up the pace"- Oh yeah! why? ......... Well you see that 4 some waiting behind you? "Yeah so what" ............."Well that's the base commander and the 2 star that's visiting, so I strongly suggest" -------- "Hey wait I wasn't finished talking".....

I have the black belt, but you got me with the diplomatic skills. 

[cksurfdude]

On 11/1/2023 at 10:38 PM, Preeway said:

..and with basic human decency on the decline ...

Very sad but very true.

 

On 11/2/2023 at 2:23 PM, Golf2Much said:

That winter, the board decreed that EVERYONE was required to take a pace of play/golf etiquette course before the spring, or they would not be allowed to play. 

I actually wish my course (private club) would do that.

...

So w/r/t the OP ... my club does use a marshal and I like to think / hope that they can be effective.

Many of the problems already discussed that negatively impact pace of play (predominantly rude or don't give a f*** or me-me-me behavior) cannot always be resolved by a marshal but again, I like to think at least, that their presence is at a minimum a reminder to players to keep things moving along.

[Preeway]

7 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Many of the problems already discussed that negatively impact pace of play (predominantly rude or don't give a f*** or me-me-me behavior) cannot always be resolved by a marshal but again, I like to think at least, that their presence is at a minimum a reminder to players to keep things moving along.

Perhaps if courses would assign driving cart numbers to groups, (yes I know not everyone rides) then perhaps the course could blackball the group from future play. Again, it requires the course to make the effort to enforce the expectation. 

[cksurfdude]

9 hours ago, Preeway said:

Perhaps if courses would assign driving cart numbers to groups, (yes I know not everyone rides) then perhaps the course could blackball the group from future play. Again, it requires the course to make the effort to enforce the expectation. 

There is a product I've read about called "Tag Marshall" - essentially a GPS tracker that gets assigned to each group - along with an app to be used in the pro shop which displays the location of each of those tags overlaid atop a map of the golf course.

Then the shop would definitively know which group(s) were not keeping up with the recommended pace .. and could send the human marshal out to them.

Guess it never caught on.....