PGA Tour 2024 - BMW Chamionship

[BIG STU]

On 8/26/2024 at 7:52 AM, bens197 said:

The Fitzpatrick ruling was one of the most brain dead, infuriating decisions I've ever seen.  

 

Yes Matt, there is a crack in the face.

Thank you, you see it as well; so I can replace it?

No, it's not a big enough crack.

 

Let's think about it.  The driver is unplayable.  He's showing them on the next tee how it's unplayable and is willing to set himself up for a bogey to prove a point.  He then proceeds to say he's stuck with 3 wood for the remainder of the round.  

This is what happens when you give insecure people a little bit of authority.  They are sad, little men.

 

I need a coffee.

 

 

In the rules what is the defining criteria? I mean does it have to be at least 1 MM or perhaps visually cracked? No definition whatsoever on the rule

[BIG STU]

On 8/26/2024 at 8:04 AM, RetiredBoomer said:

Agreed.  I think that it's the OEMs that are wimping out.

They should defy the USGA / R&A , combine to promote a rival sanctioning body, and even make non-USGA conforming equipment available to the public on a major scale.

The PGA Tour split from the PGA of America,
and then the Middle Eastern owned promotion--is it LIV or something like that?--split with them.
[I haven't followed pro golf for a while.]
Now it's time split from the USGA.

Of course, since I'm the only one calling for this, there must be drawbacks that I don't see.
Admittedly, I've always been annoyed by the USGA for one reason or another.

Oh do not get me started on the USGA. It is well known on here by the old timers I am the biggest detractor of the USGA on here or any other golf site

With me it started on the groove rule thing way back when.

Then it was the anchored putting ban. I can write a whole article on that one. They absolutely did nothing about the length. It led to players finding another way to putt without anchoring and that caused another controversy. Now days they use the arm lock method which if that is not anchoring then I will eat my hat. FTR I never had any problem whatsoever if someone anchored or not or used a belly putter.

[BIG STU]

On 8/26/2024 at 8:16 AM, Shapotomous said:

Instead of having a rules guy decide it should be between players in the group.  The rules guy has no idea what the impact of that damage is to an elite players game and working the ball.  None. Unless there is an empirical measurement happening the rules guy is giving an uninformed opinion.  He has no idea what a cracked face feels like at impact when hitting a 170mph ball speed.

The other players know the feel of something like that and can give an informed decision.

Agree 110% After all golf is supposed to be a game of integrity. The guys at that level have an uncanny sense of fell and IMHO can for certain tell if something is amiss. You have in this case 2 top shelf professional golfers abet competitors agreeing that should be good enough

[BIG STU]

18 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Hey PGA, please do us all a favor and provide your rules committee staff with one of these high tech devices 

 

I agree but the downside is I would think it would be hard to use while their head is buried deep in their rectal cavity

[Cls98]

37 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

Saw that IMHO he hit what we call a pulled Chunky Monkey

Wild watching that when Adam Scott seemingly hit everything TOO GOOD and kept flying greens lol

[fixyurdivot]

18 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I agree but the downside is I would think it would be hard to use while their head is buried deep in their rectal cavity

LOL. Kidding aside, the rules officials do a really great job but this is an area that needs to be improved.  There are fairly simple techniques and tools to determine whether thin cross-section metal is cracked.  No player should be left at a huge disadvantage for equipment failure.

[Josh Parker]

I read a good article this morning on the Fitzpatrick driver issue that I thought was intriguing or at least insightful.  First it said when both players are saying it deserves to be swapped then it should be approved as players call out themselves for penalties.  It also talked about why the rule is stated the way it is and that is, driver manufacturers push the limits on face thickness and if players are able to easily change out clubs it allows players/manufacturers to push beyond the limits without hesitation. It makes sense in that aspect but is also dumb. Haha. 

I guess one day it may be like Nascar and everything is inspected prior to use every round. 

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, Josh Parker said:

 

I guess one day it may be like Nascar and everything is inspected prior to use every round. 

And after the round; winners race car is torn apart to ensure the rules were followed.  

Edited August 27 by cnosil

[Josh Parker]

2 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And after the round; winners race car is torn apart to ensure the rules were followed.  

The interesting thing I could see is replace the club and they could test face thickness on the damaged.  It does change though over time with how hard these guys hit it. 

[BIG STU]

7 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

I read a good article this morning on the Fitzpatrick driver issue that I thought was intriguing or at least insightful.  First it said when both players are saying it deserves to be swapped then it should be approved as players call out themselves for penalties.  It also talked about why the rule is stated the way it is and that is, driver manufacturers push the limits on face thickness and if players are able to easily change out clubs it allows players/manufacturers to push beyond the limits without hesitation. It makes sense in that aspect but is also dumb. Haha. 

I guess one day it may be like Nascar and everything is inspected prior to use every round. 

I know a buddy of mine caddied on both the PGAT and the Senior Tour. He told me they quit checking COR at each event a long time ago. But I do remember a few years ago some issue cropped up and they checked quite a few drivers and found several non-conforming.

I quit keeping up with NASCAR like 20 years ago. I still get feeds on my news and every week they are getting someone for something and issuing suspensions to people. It is a wonder they have enough qualified people left to field some of the cars. And since they have gone to the single lug wheels, they have lost more wheels and had more loose wheels in the last 3 years or so than they had altogether in all the previous years NASCAR has operated

[Josh Parker]

8 minutes ago, BIG STU said:

I know a buddy of mine caddied on both the PGAT and the Senior Tour. He told me they quit checking COR at each event a long time ago. But I do remember a few years ago some issue cropped up and they checked quite a few drivers and found several non-conforming.

I quit keeping up with NASCAR like 20 years ago. I still get feeds on my news and every week they are getting someone for something and issuing suspensions to people. It is a wonder they have enough qualified people left to field some of the cars. And since they have gone to the single lug wheels, they have lost more wheels and had more loose wheels in the last 3 years or so than they had altogether in all the previous years NASCAR has operated

I don't watch it, but could see them doing something like that with driver faces 

[downlowkey]

20 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And after the round; winners race car is torn apart to ensure the rules were followed.  

The real problem I have w/ the Fitzpatrick driver face ruling is an imbalance re: advantage vs disadvantage determinism. The PGA Tour regularly utilizes a CT (characteristic time) pendulum test console to ensure that OEM “conforming list” equip. doesn’t exceed the stated limits after it’s been in play awhile (ie - under certain conditions, COR on driver faces can actually increase with normal use). They have all the data necessary to know the nominal range a Titleist tour head should fall into. So, if the CT test is good enough to force players to take a driver out of play because the face has become too hot, then it stands to reason that the same test is good enough to determine whether damage is significant enough to warrant replacement. If I was Fitzpatrick, I’d file a suit along those grounds, to get this visual inspection nonsense tossed in the bin where it belongs. 

[Shrek74]

2 minutes ago, downlowkey said:

If I was Fitzpatrick, I’d file a suit along those grounds, to get this visual inspection nonsense tossed in the bin where it belongs. 

I was thinking about this the other day too. I agree he needs to use this as an opportunity to use legal proceedings to get a bad rule out of the books. He might not win any money, even though he can argue that by not allowing a replacement head they prevented him from finishing better and getting to the PGA Championship, further limiting his financial opportunities. Especially with it happening around hole 7 or 8, he had plenty of time to get it done.

[BIG STU]

9 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

The interesting thing I could see is replace the club and they could test face thickness on the damaged.  It does change though over time with how hard these guys hit it. 

Correct. I have an older Bang O Matic driver in the shop that is more than likely 15 years old. My bud here was a Long Drive guy. The face is not cracked but it does not conform now to the rebound specs. He had to take it out of play when they checked it because it did not conform. He explained to me about stress as hard as they hit them and it leads to stress and a springy face. He told me they checked those specs at every event. He told me in all honesty that if it had not been caught when it was it would have more than likely cracked with him hitting it. He also educated me on another fact that sometimes due to stress but more than likely not visible (to the human eye) cracks the head can go dead as they call it. Not really sure how it goes these days with new manufacturing methods and more modern materials. LOL he is retired now like me too darn old to crack an egg anymore.

Now this day in time Krank makes different thickness driver heads according to swing speed. I have done some research on it. Now say a head for a slow swinger like me is thinner for more rebound effect but at a certain SS meets the rebound limits. Now take that same driver and give it to a younger faster player not only will it exceed the COR limits, but they will more than likely crack the face within 25 hits or so.  The way I read the equipment rules the thin faced one for like me would be non-conforming because as I read it the USGA has specified SS criteria and ball speed criteria. Maybe someone on here can educate me further on that tidbit

[Shapotomous]

36 minutes ago, cnosil said:

And after the round; winners race car is torn apart to ensure the rules were followed.  

Or like restrictor plate racing they all have to use a stock USGA set of clubs.  Same length, loft, lie angle, shaft flex, swing weight, shaft weight, overall club weight, grip size, type grip, putter model, ball etc., etc.  Everybody gets an identical set and maybe throw in a roll of lead tape! 

. And to make it more interesting, each week the set is from a different manufacturer.  You get the clubs Monday morning and turn them in Sunday night (or Friday night if you miss the cut).  

I am sending that idea to Uncle Greg!  Thats the kind of thing LIV would do!!

[bens197]

7 hours ago, BIG STU said:

In the rules what is the defining criteria? I mean does it have to be at least 1 MM or perhaps visually cracked? No definition whatsoever on the rule

I’m the wrong guy to ask. 
 

A crack does not (IMO) have to fit a certain threshold to qualify as a crack. 
 

If your driver has a crack, it shouldn’t take an army of rules officials to qualify the damage. 
 

It’s broken?  Ok, here’s a new one. Just bonkers to me that this happened. 

[Ewells09]

I’ve read all the posts and have opinions of my own on the equipment. Shouldn’t there be a way for them to call in to the hq and get an immediate addendum to the rules for their equipment? Similar to other sports “getting on the horn to hq” and have them deliver the ruling?