Spectator Providing distances to players?

[PlaidJacket]

On Friday during round one of our club Championship I encountered the following. I'll try to be brief.

 

 

Situation:

 

In our foursome there was a guy/friend/spectator of one of the players who tagged along in a cart by himself. This guy; starting with the first hole was driving around in his cart measuring distances for each player using his laser range finder. On the second hole I told him to NOT provide any distance for me as I have my own GPS and LRF. I thought to myself that was a violation of the rules. This continued through the front-nine. At the turn and before anyone had tee'd-off on 10 I said to the guy/spectator that I thought what he was doing is not permitted. I contended that each player is responsible for figuring his own distance and for him to stop. He argued with me about it. Keep in mind this guy is a spectator. Aside from what I now felt was disruptive this guy was now telling me what he was or was not going to do. Soon after our discussion he drove back to the pro shop returning to inform me that the Pro said it was not a rule violation. Hmmm? So, this Spectator continued the back nine providing distances to other players.

 

 

After the round:

 

After we concluded our round I found the Assistant Pro and asked. Without sighting a specific rule he informed me that in fact it is not a violation for him to provide distances since it's considered "common knowledge". Later that evening I began researching the rules which lead me to Rule 8.1 and 8.2 I believe. There it states that Players can provide distance to other players as it's known as "public information". (I don't get that either) However, a player cannot for instance provide distance and also suggest a club selection. That would be a violation. I never noticed or heard the guy/spectator following us provide anything other than distance.

 

 

My thoughts:

 

I'm not finished researching the issue. Although it may be permissible under the rules for Players to provide distances to each other I'm not sure if that includes spectators. I suppose more than anything I found it annoying and in poor taste for 1) the player whose friend this guy/spectator was to allow him to inject himself into our round/tournament. This guy/spectator was NOT a caddie for anyone. 2) For this guy/spectator to become combative/defensive with me after I called him out. Perhaps if anything I should have suggested to the Pro that this spectator be removed due to being disruptive. Let me be clear. I was NOT looking to penalize anyone for my advantage. I only called out what I thought to be a violation. As a player I have a responsibility to do so. As do all players.

 

 

Conclusion:

 

I'm interested to hear your thoughts on this subject. If anyone can steer me to a specific rule/decision I'd be most thankful.

[westy]

Plaid

 

I've always taken the rule to mean:

 

If there's yard ages on the sprinklers and everyone in the group has a laser or GPS then discussing yard ages is fine - after all the information is available to all. Common knowledge.

 

If only you have GPS or laser, then sharing information is not ok.

 

So if you all had means of judging yardage, then no worries. If one of you didn't then passer by should keep his trap shut.

 

Mind you I'm often wrong and this rule seems to have a lot of interpretation.

 

That to one side, that guy needs to get a life and go and get a beer.

[jaskanski]

My thoughts:

The committee or whoever organises your club championship can (and indeed should) implement controls on who has access to the course during such competitions. Although the alleged spectator didn't really breach any rule (although see the definition of "advice" in rule 8), you were quite within your rights to ask for the spectator to leave you alone and carry on with your round without any interference, if the spectator has no other role in the completion.

Reporting the incident after the round might be a little late in the day really - all claims should be made without any delay to the competition committee or organiser.

Assistant pros (sorry to any current assistant pros) are next to useless in almost any incident in competition and any counsel received from anyone not directly connected with the competiton should be treated accordingly (i.e. ignored).

[PlaidJacket]

I don't suppose I have much to add to this discussion at time. Like I said when I posted originally and Jaskanski mentioned. At best I feel the spectator should have accepted my call to stop. And second... I think the player who brought the spectator should have told him to stay back away from the course (remain on a cart path perhaps) and not interact with the other players. Instead the spectator became defensive with me (a player), went and sought a ruling, and injected himself on to the course and into our game. Extremely poor taste and judgment by both the player who invited him and the spectator. And arrogance.

I still plan to research and write to the USGA about this.

[apprenti23]

I would've told him to go pound sand- if you're a spectator, you're only there to spectate. You want to play? Then sign up. Otherwise keep your trap shut and eyes open.

[L.I. Rich]

In a stroke play tournament I played a few weeks ago, I ran into the following scenario in my foursome:

3 of the 4 people had laser rangefinders, all had GPS.

It was quite common for the first person to arrive at a tee box to shoot the pin and announce a yardage, or shoot a hazard on a par 4/5.  Similarly, when a cart would arrive at a ball in the fairway, the cart partner would shoot the pin and state the yardage to the player.

Then, in the middle of the round, one of the players in the foursome warned me that asking for a yardage was a penalty because it was asking for advice (like, "what club did you hit").  Frankly, I wasn't sure what the ruling was, and am curious.  The guys were drawing a distinction between announcing a yardage (which could be providing advice), versus asking for a yardage, which seemed odd to me.  

[jaskanski]

In a stroke play tournament I played a few weeks ago, I ran into the following scenario in my foursome:

3 of the 4 people had laser rangefinders, all had GPS.

It was quite common for the first person to arrive at a tee box to shoot the pin and announce a yardage, or shoot a hazard on a par 4/5.  Similarly, when a cart would arrive at a ball in the fairway, the cart partner would shoot the pin and state the yardage to the player.

Then, in the middle of the round, one of the players in the foursome warned me that asking for a yardage was a penalty because it was asking for advice (like, "what club did you hit").  Frankly, I wasn't sure what the ruling was, and am curious.  The guys were drawing a distinction between announcing a yardage (which could be providing advice), versus asking for a yardage, which seemed odd to me.  

 

If everyone had some form of measuring device, why was it necessary for someone to blab his mouth off at every tee box? Some things like common sense are somewhat missing in golf these days and the old holy trinity mantra of honesty, integrity and courtesy are often overlooked. I prefer the old saying of "turn up, keep up and shut up".

[L.I. Rich]

Basically I think they were trying to play fast.  Rather than everyone shooting their own distance, one person can shoot for the group.

[PlaidJacket]

Actually, and I have read Rule 8.1 - 8.2 (I believe) It stats that Players can exchange distance measurements. For instance: You may ask me how far it is to a ditch. You may also ask me how far to the pin, etc ,etc. You May Not ask what club to hit.

For my particular issue I'm not worried about Players in a match. My issue is with Spectators. On the course. Providing distance measurements to other players.

[L.I. Rich]

Actually, and I have read Rule 8.1 - 8.2 (I believe) It stats that Players can exchange distance measurements. For instance: You may ask me how far it is to a ditch. You may also ask me how far to the pin, etc ,etc. You May Not ask what club to hit.

For my particular issue I'm not worried about Players in a match. My issue is with Spectators. On the course. Providing distance measurements to other players.

Thanks for the information.

My impression of your spectator is that he's a pushy jerk, and you were perfectly correct to feel that you could tell him to stifle it.  Now, being a pushy jerk, I thought his subsequent behavior predictable.  The phrase "don't feed the trolls" comes to mind.  Someone like that feeds off that type of conflict.