Honest Discussion on Game Analytics.

[Sschaffer24]

Hello fellow members!

 

After the PGA show and the buzz around some of the products (specifically Arccos 360 for me) I've been kicking around some ideas. The first of which, is how does the system truly fit into my golf game? 

 

I had Arccos on my Hogans and sold the system when I moved to the Callaway's at the end of last season. I couldn't get past the idea of choking down on them and it caused me to hold onto the bottom part of the sensor more often than not. Needless to say, that didn't work and I decided to move on. With the new sensor profile of the system however, I feel like this may be a perfect fix for that issue.

 

The main concern I have with the program however is the actual use of the analytics? I'd love to hear from you guys who have tracked stats over time. Whether that's with Arccos, Game Golf, an app or pen and paper, it doesn't matter. Who out there has done this? How have you applied them to your game and what kind of changes have you seen to your handicap or average score from doing it?

 

Would love some feedback! I've been a Game Golf and Arccos user and for one reason or another (too early for GG and sensor issue with Arccos) I had to move on. I do however think there is a place in my game for this. Just curious how usable it is in the real world.

[JudgeSmails]

I've only started keeping stats the last season or so.....one thing I have found that surprised me, Fairways hit does not necessarily correlate to GIR for me.   Some of my best rounds for Greens in Reg I only hit a couple of fairways....but I was hitting the ball far those days, it's made me realize that distance kills, as long as you can keep it decently in play.

[PlaidJacket]

I've pretty much moved away from all the analysis. I used to track every aspect of my game. It was interesting and fun for a while but I just got tired of it quite frankly. The only tracking device I've really ever used was the Game Golf when it first came out. It was a bust for me. Although I've heard it's improved. I'm not all that convinced at my (our) level that mountains of granular data is that important really. Yeah sure, I like to have an idea how many putts in a round or GIR or fairways, blah, blah, blah. But you know what... I'm more interested in my swing - ball striking, scoring than all the detailed numbers. There may be times when I might need to re-dial-in some distances or something and I'll go out with my GPS and LRF and check some things. But, at the end of a round my score and what I saw happening pretty much tells me all I need to know. I can quickly in my head tell you how many putts, greens, faiways ,etc. And finally, I think we all make too much out of the data and technology and such that's available. I'm more into practicing some and playing more when I can. The hell with all the micro data crunching. Free your mind and just go play.

[Liberty Ball Markers]

I keep track during my rounds, then bump those numbers into a giant spreadsheet that I built.

 

Over time, I have added or removed stats depending on importance at the time.

 

It really helped me get true average distances, fairways hit, GIR, etc. I also like to track sand saves, putts per round, and penalty strokes per round.

 

I definitely like to see GIR improve month to month, and I also like to see my average strokes vs par go down each month.

 

My average strokes vs par means more to me than my handicap. (Seems like a more realistic snapshot of my current game)

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[jaskanski]

Like others, I gave up tracking stats a long time ago. Pen and paper worked fine back then, but just like any other stat recording device, it isn't really of much use after you've hit your shot. 

So instead, I started paying more attention to pre-shot set up and execution and guess what? - my game improved a lot.

In summary, using stat tracking in hindsight will only do so much if you can extrapolate the data and learn from it. It's all very well saying "I need to work on my short game" or "my putting within 15 feet is shabby" if it is done after the fact. The real hard work is done before you hit any shot - but most stats fail to pick this up.

[JBones]

I quit keeping track, because it got depressing. I knew what it was going to show went I started keep stats.....that I lose all my strokes on the green. Sure my FWs % has went up over the past few years and I'm always around 75% GIR, but my putting stats suck. It's the only part of my game that I constantly work on and it never improves. My distance control has greatly improved, with the data that I gathered over a couple years, but I still can't read a green worth a sh!t.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Kor.A.Door]

I have not and do not plan on tracking. I do have a question about tracking distances. If you are using an 8i, and it says he average is 150. So you think I can hit this 150, so there are some holes for me that are uphill, anywhere from 6yards to 12 yards. So the distance says I have 140, but it's uphill 10 yards, so I hit 8 iron, which is 150 yards, but for this shot it will be140, how does this compute in the system? Does it compensate for an uphill shot? Or is just a static distance.

[Undershooter]

I quit keeping track, because it got depressing. I knew what it was going to show went I started keep stats.....that I lose all my strokes on the green. Sure my FWs % has went up over the past few years and I'm always around 75% GIR, but my putting stats suck. It's the only part of my game that I constantly work on and it never improves. My distance control has greatly improved, with the data that I gathered over a couple years, but I still can't read a green worth a sh!t.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

Maybe do an aimpoint class? Could be worth it if reading greens is your biggest issue.

[jaskanski]

I have not and do not plan on tracking. I do have a question about tracking distances. If you are using an 8i, and it says he average is 150. So you think I can hit this 150, so there are some holes for me that are uphill, anywhere from 6yards to 12 yards. So the distance says I have 140, but it's uphill 10 yards, so I hit 8 iron, which is 150 yards, but for this shot it will be140, how does this compute in the system? Does it compensate for an uphill shot? Or is just a static distance.

 

This is a big problem in shot analytics - it does track your average distances with each club, but it doesn't account for how the ball got where it is and the shape of the shot you had to play. All the GPS does is track the position of the ball on the course - with a linear distance calculation. If you had to add a club to hit uphill for instance, the average distance for that club - even though it correctly reached it's target - would move the average down a small amount, but the algorithm still tracks the mean, median and mode for each club so the averages tend to even out. Unless you're playing on a very undulating course on a regular basis that is lol. 

At the end of the day, it's still up to the player to decide which shot to play and how to execute that shot - all the tracking does it record the outcome, but not the finesse. 

[Sschaffer24]

This is a big problem in shot analytics - it does track your average distances with each club, but it doesn't account for how the ball got where it is and the shape of the shot you had to play. All the GPS does is track the position of the ball on the course - with a linear distance calculation. If you had to add a club to hit uphill for instance, the average distance for that club - even though it correctly reached it's target - would move the average down a small amount, but the algorithm still tracks the mean, median and mode for each club so the averages tend to even out. Unless you're playing on a very undulating course on a regular basis that is lol. 

At the end of the day, it's still up to the player to decide which shot to play and how to execute that shot - all the tracking does it record the outcome, but not the finesse. 

 

I think this sums the idea/argument of analytics up perfectly. This tied together with what Plaid said make the statement that it's essentially just noise. It's extra ideas or data points that can swirl around your head and mess with your game. Starting to like the freedom of just playing idea...

[Liberty Ball Markers]

I guess I should clarify my post a little? I use my stats/spreadsheet to look at things that are important to me, but I don't get caught up in data.

 

Something like arccos doesn't appeal to me at all. I just don't care about splitting hairs over face angle, head speed, etc.

 

I just look at the bigger averages to see where I can improve my overall game. I'm more of a feel player, and don't always use the same club at the same distance - as stated earlier - shot shape, wind, elevation, etc. make a robotic stat machine sort of useless.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Peaksy68]

I don't keep stats, as I don't think they'll really impact on the way I practice. Generally I'll have 1 of Driving, irons or putting not working well in any given round and I need to adjust on the go, not work on it afterwards. I remember virtually every shot for about a month anyway (sometimes a blessing, sometimes a curse) so I know a particular shot is causing problems so I can work on that when I practice, in addition to my normal routine.

To many players obsess with stats, when really, the only stat that matters is your score.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[Mr_Theoo]

Maybe do an aimpoint class? Could be worth it if reading greens is your biggest issue.

I love aimpoint. Took a class a couple of years ago and learned a ton from it. Now I don't use the figures to gauge the slope or anything. But I gained an understanding of how starting the putt on the right line and speed are the most important aspects.

[cnosil]

Live analytical data from the course doesn't interest me at all.  I tried doing a Shots gained spreadsheet,  but that just became to overwhelming to manage.  I keep basic stats via the Grint app so I know how I am doing on fairways, greens, and putts.  For me I know my game well enough to know where I need work.  

 

Really the only think I would want is some kind of launch monitor so I can track distances with each club so I know how to play on the course and that is primarily for wedges so I know what to hit into the greens for any given distance. I have done this on a basic level on the driving range with a rangefinder.  If I can't use a simulator/launch monitor I would be just as happy with cones or markers on a driving range out to about 100 yards.  

[Sschaffer24]

Isn't that one of the benefits of this system though? You get the distance ranges and "smart" distance to work with. I think those are really usable.

 

And honestly what most of you bring up is kind of the idea I'm struggling with seeing usability. Say the stats show that I'm consistently making the same mistake, it basically works to just shine a light on that issue. It obviously doesn't provide instruction or anything so it's still up to me. It also forces the golfer to find those weaknesses as well. Which feels like a very time consuming thing all things considered.

[revkev]

I have tracked my game for a long.......time always with paper although I've used GPS the last decade to add in more accurate distances.

 

I've used that tracking to determine what area of the game to work on as well as how to manage my game.

 

More recent examples - I know that I miss half the greens (normal for a player of my skill level, lower handicap) and determined that I could save more strokes by improving my chipping. It payed off in a big way as I got my handicap to its lowest point ever 1.2 for a season in my mid 50's. I also determined that I was much better leaving myself full wedge shots into the green so instead of taking it to 75 on par 5's or short par 4's I would lay up to 100.

 

Its good to know your game.

 

Sent from my VS986 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[cnosil]

Isn't that one of the benefits of this system though? You get the distance ranges and "smart" distance to work with. I think those are really usable.

 

It does give me distances but I am pretty sure I have to walk to the ball after I hit the club. It can probably be done but I just can't hit ten balls 125ish yards and determine distance. These sensors are designed for on course play which for me is the limitation. If I want to judge the distance for each club my neo ghost GPS already provides that feature.

 

The newest arccos product that was developed with Microsoft holds some potential since it can provide course management type information.

[ole gray]

I don't track stats now and never have in the past.   I tee it up, smack it, go find it and hit it again. Actually I'm not all that interested in maintaining  a handicap these days. What I am interested in is the points I try to accumulate in our weekly blitz.  More points made means more money in the pocket.  Our leader keeps the points made plus or minus in his book so everybody knows what they have to pull each week. You win money you go up 1 point however if you win by more than three points, you go up two points for next week. If you are three or more points short of your point average, you go down two points for next weeks blitz. 

[Peterpc2828]

As I have stated in other threads about this, personally I love the Arccos 360 system, for me it's made me a better player, I have gone from a 13.5HC to a 10HC, it tells you through the data it gathers exactly where to spend time working on your game, it divides up the golf game into 5 distinct sections- Driving/ Approach/ Chipping/ Sand/ Putting. And each one of these sections gets into own handicap, so by doing this it shows you exactly where you should spend your time practicing or where your coach or instructor can focus his teaching to better improve your game. It does other neat things like give you historical data by hole if you tend to play the same courses, as well there is a social aspect where you compete against other Arccos users for overall points and bragging rights for that particular course and hole, it truly is a great system.

Some negatives that you may want to consider, if you cannot play with your iPhone in your front pocket then this is not for you, sensors though now smaller and have increased battery life now have built in batteries so if anything goes wrong with a particular sensors then it would have to be sent back to the company, though there is a 2 year warranty on the battery/ sensors. As well it's not always perfect, sometimes it does miss a shot but it's easy enough to go back and add or adjust once you complete the round.

There is a lot of great data while your playing with regards to a very well done gps system with very accurate distances as well club recommendations that for me have proved to be very helpful.

As with anything it's not perfect, they continuously improve the system, I have also had the opportunity to participate in bata testing for them and can say they are very open to opinions and suggestions from users, as well as most already know they announced at the PGA show a partnership with Microsoft to create the most technology advanced analytics system set to launch in May, I highly recommend this system if your looking to improve your game, for me it's been one of the best golf purchases I have ever made.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[cnosil]

I am glad the analytics have worked for you. I guess my question is why was what the arccos system said you needed to work on different than what you thought you should be working on?

 

How does the system evaluate your game to tell you the areas to practice?

[jaskanski]

I'm pretty sure that most golfers are intelligent enough to know what aspect of their game needs improvement because it's fairly obvious when you hit 3 balls OOB or duff 5 approach shots. I'm pretty sure you don't need a GPS system to be able to work out your playing yardages either. 

For the sake of argument, stat tracking is a way of telling you what you probably already know, but for those who have aspirations of improving their golf game it really ought to be possible without the need to refer to historical data as a means to encourage the proper club selection or shot choice - unless you're in complete denial that your 200 yard best drive isn't going to be enough to make a 220 yard approach.

It has long been said that golf is journey to use an analogy, so it also follows that if you're on a journey it's probably best to look at where you're going to actually get there - then you can look back when you reach that goal. Stat tracking, in my opinion, is one of those things that really needs to be assessed on a far less frequent basis, whereas the here and now - such as set up, ball position, alignment, grip and stance (as well as course management) are the factors which truly make a difference to any player of any level and encourage a positive approach to the game, rather than a post round analysis of the obvious. 

So if you spent more time thinking about a shot before you hit it, rather than pour over the data after the fact, you might just find that your scorecard (the ultimate stat in itself) looks a lot better. Just my 2 cents.

[Peterpc2828]

I am glad the analytics have worked for you. I guess my question is why was what the arccos system said you needed to work on different than what you thought you should be working on?

 

How does the system evaluate your game to tell you the areas to practice?

Like I said above it breaks up everyone's game into 5 areas and the gives you a handicap for each of those segments of the game.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[cnosil]

Like I said above it breaks up everyone's game into 5 areas and the gives you a handicap for each of those segments of the game.

 

I am looking for more detail. Is it a strokes gained type model? Or some other statistical analysis? How is the handicap analyzed. For example I miss a green, chip to 5 feet and 2 putt or miss a green chip to 20 feet and 3 putt. How does it compute handicap?

[Peterpc2828]

I am looking for more detail. Is it a strokes gained type model? Or some other statistical analysis? How is the handicap analyzed. For example I miss a green, chip to 5 feet and 2 putt or miss a green chip to 20 feet and 3 putt. How does it compute handicap?

Take a look at this link, it's a demo, if you click on each of the handicap segments it will give you details on how they gather the data to come up with the individual handicaps

 

https://dashboard.arccosgolf.com/rounds

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

[cnosil]

Take a look at this link, it's a demo, if you click on each of the handicap segments it will give you details on how they gather the data to come up with the individual handicaps

 

https://dashboard.arccosgolf.com/rounds

 

Thanks. It is a strokes gained approach to determining handicap.