The Players - The 5th Major?

[Headhammer]

Two topics that always proliferate throughout social media this week. Should the Players be the 5th major and stories about that guy that pulls all of the balls out of the pond on 17 at Sawgrass. #Clockwork!

[Undershooter]

Keep the 4 majors.  Adding the Players as a major would only mean that Tiger is further behind Jack's record.  

Well sorta... It depends on where you draw the line. All 3 of Jack's were technically "Tournament Players Championships." And none of them were played at TPC Sawgrass. 

 

Which is another reason we should keep the 4 we have. Lets not muddy the waters further lol 

[Undershooter]

And if they didn't remove from the records his two amateur championships that were majors at the time he would have 30 majors and not 18

I think you meant 20 majors. 

 

That would give Tiger 17 as well since he won it 3 times as well. Its amazing how it really is just those 2 guys by themselves when looking at the record books. 

 

It sounds great on paper but Sawgrass would not play the way you'd like (or they) in September. As it is May has been tenuous.

 

March will be fun, expect a blood bath sometime in the next few years when they get a couple of days in the 40's and 25 mph winds.

 

September would bring rough like you can't believe and very little roll out plus the possibility of tropical weather and or afternoon rain every day.

 

 

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Exactly this! Sawgrass was designed to be played when its windy. They've had to make the course a little different over the years since they moved it to May(trick it up a little). Moving it back to March lets it go back to being played as it was designed. 

[Undershooter]

.

I agree. It's quite an accomplishment for a working-class club pro, to maintain that level of game while attending to all their other duties - whereas Uresti's bit was a sham that I think diminishes the game, and backdooring their way into a major diminishes the field and the tournament. It's no better than the insurance agent types that rumble their way through the U.S. Amateur because they have jobs in which they don't have real hours, oftentimes just owning the agency and leaving employees to do all the heavy lifting, so they can spend all their time working on their games.

Totally agree for the PGA. I hated the Uresti crap last year. 

Somewhat disagree for the AM. You can do whatever you want for that one. It's usually college Players that dominate it now days anyway. 

 

The mid-AM however is another story. It sucks getting matched up with a "professional amateur" when you are a guy that works a normal job and only gets to play or practice 2 days a week. 

[revkev]

@undershooter - it is what it is. We can't control what people do for a living or if they have managed to find a profession that allows them to earn a good living while having time to maintain a high level golf game.

 

Im fully onboard with everyone here on Uresti. That was a joke. I honestly think the day of the club pros in the field for the PGA has past. Perhaps you let the top two in but that's enough.

 

 

 

 

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[RickyBobby_PR]

I think you meant 20 majors.

 

That would give Tiger 17 as well since he won it 3 times as well. Its amazing how it really is just those 2 guys by themselves when looking at the record books.

Yeah meant 20 but imo since tiger won his after they were no longer majors it's not really the same as Jack winning his two where they actually took them away from him

[revkev]

In regards to the Am I don't think it's fair to count it post Walter Hagen - after him it became sheik for the best players to turn pro once they could.

 

It's like that with the club pro thing and the PGA - there were lots of very good playing club pros up until WWII even - after that though not so much -

 

I love TPC Sawgrass - it is a course that could easily host a major but the schedule just doesn't fit for it.

 

Just leave the Players as is, on that course, but in March. Great test, great field, people enjoy watching it and why wouldn't they? 17 as the 71st hole makes it very interesting. 18 needs to be lengthened to make it play as Dye intended but I don't know that there's room to do so. It certainly plays that way for me though.

 

 

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[GolfSpy MPR]

An absolutely awesome, data-driven read from 538: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-winning-the-players-championship-as-hard-as-winning-a-major/

 

Some bullet points:

• Objectively, the Players has a harder field than any of the majors.
• Surprisingly, of the majors, the Masters has the strongest field. This was not a result I expected.

You can read the article to see their methodology, but I think it's always useful to back opinions with hard data.

[gaussman1]

It sounds great on paper but Sawgrass would not play the way you'd like (or they) in September. As it is May has been tenuous.

 

March will be fun, expect a blood bath sometime in the next few years when they get a couple of days in the 40's and 25 mph winds.

 

September would bring rough like you can't believe and very little roll out plus the possibility of tropical weather and or afternoon rain every day.

 

 

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Oh yeah, it is kind of monsoon season isn't it? Well that was a dumb idea

[Undershooter]

Yeah meant 20 but imo since tiger won his after they were no longer majors it's not really the same as Jack winning his two where they actually took them away from him

Can't really have your cake and eat it too. According to Jack they didn't even stop counting his as majors UNTIL Tiger won it 3 times. So Jack thinks they should count for both of them. 

 

You can't honestly tell me it would've changed anything about Tiger winning them if they were or weren't considered majors. He was gonna win them regardless. It didn't mean any more or less to him at the time. 

[fozcycle]

So today we have on display, Callaway, Cobra & Taylormade in the same grouping(Michelson, Fowler & Woods).......very interesting

 

 

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[Undershooter]

An absolutely awesome, data-driven read from 538: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-winning-the-players-championship-as-hard-as-winning-a-major/

 

Some bullet points:

• Objectively, the Players has a harder field than any of the majors.
• Surprisingly, of the majors, the Masters has the strongest field. This was not a result I expected.

You can read the article to see their methodology, but I think it's always useful to back opinions with hard data.

While I agree with them that the Players is probably the toughest field in golf. I strongly disagree with them on the Masters.

Their data is skewed because they are not taking into account field size. Of course the lower tiers of the Masters Players are better than the lower tiers of the rest. The field is nearly half the size. 

I think you can see this illustrated when they show their win probability %'s. Top 5 Players are more likely to win the Masters than any other major. Even Average tour pros are more likely to win there than any other event save the US Open.

 

The data is great and I'm a data nut but it doesn't tell the whole story. Especially here.

The Masters is by far the easiest major to win for better tour pros. Its easily the smallest field. Plus you can pretty much count out all the ams, former winners over the age of 50, former winners who don't play much anymore and first timers. You can also count out those who hit it short and low unless the conditions are extremely strange that year. 

The Open is the second easiest to win. Count out the ams and former winners who don't play much anymore. Then let the draw cut the field in half. Because winners usually only come out of one side of the draw. The draw that gets the more favorable conditions. I understand half of that is luck but you have to be a little lucky to win unless you are circa 2000 Tiger-esq.

[Undershooter]

@undershooter - it is what it is. We can't control what people do for a living or if they have managed to find a profession that allows them to earn a good living while having time to maintain a high level golf game.

 

Im fully onboard with everyone here on Uresti. That was a joke. I honestly think the day of the club pros in the field for the PGA has past. Perhaps you let the top two in but that's enough.

 

 

 

 

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I never said it was cheating or anything. Just that it sucks. But that's life. And life isn't fair.

I do think it takes away from the spirit of what a mid-am really is but that's a different talk for a different thread lol 

[GolfSpy MPR]

While I agree with them that the Players is probably the toughest field in golf. I strongly disagree with them on the Masters.

Their data is skewed because they are not taking into account field size. Of course the lower tiers of the Masters Players are better than the lower tiers of the rest. The field is nearly half the size. 

 

Good catch. Instead of doing comparisons by percentile (ie, top 25%, 25–50%, etc.), they should have calculated the strength of the top 35 players, the next 35 players, and so on. On that kind of ranking, the top 35 at each major is likely pretty comparable. But the second 35 at Augusta would quickly start to lag behind the second 35 at the US Open. The third 35 would almost certainly be a giant chasm.

[Undershooter]

Good catch. Instead of doing comparisons by percentile (ie, top 25%, 25–50%, etc.), they should have calculated the strength of the top 35 players, the next 35 players, and so on. On that kind of ranking, the top 35 at each major is likely pretty comparable. But the second 35 at Augusta would quickly start to lag behind the second 35 at the US Open. The third 35 would almost certainly be a giant chasm.

Exactly!

I'm somewhat curious what their data would show about the Hero World challenge. I'd bet that by their methodology, it is tougher to win than any other event. 

Bc the entire field is good. But there are only 20ish guys playing each year.

[revkev]

An absolutely awesome, data-driven read from 538: https://fivethirtyeight.com/features/is-winning-the-players-championship-as-hard-as-winning-a-major/

 

Some bullet points:

• Objectively, the Players has a harder field than any of the majors.
• Surprisingly, of the majors, the Masters has the strongest field. This was not a result I expected.

You can read the article to see their methodology, but I think it's always useful to back opinions with hard data.

It's a great site. Actually the data displays the genius of the Masters IMO. Create a field that only really allows the top 50 in the world to win and fill it out with cool stories. It's like the NCAA basketball tournament. There will be Cinderella's that click early but they can't win and with the limited field blue bloods are sure to dot the landscape of the weekend leaderboard.

 

The Players is far more likely to have a lesser known winner because anyone in the field might win. Most people do not know world number 143 although he's a very good player who has won multiple times on the European or PGA tour.

 

Based on the data it would also seem that top amateurs are better than top club pros. That makes sense, many of the top ams will eventually make it to the big tours while the top club pros won't and the top Ams have more time to practice and play.

 

Great stuff

 

 

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[null]

For the 5th major their TV and app coverage is an absolute joke. No featured group or live coverage until 2pm today is embarrassing

[revkev]

For the 5th major their TV and app coverage is an absolute joke. No featured group or live coverage until 2pm today is embarrassing

Agreed

 

 

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[Comemonday]

I'm not sure I've watched a PGA Championship. Maybe. It should go away. Sawgrass is fun kinda like Phoenix and all but it's a cheesy coastal course that's completely flat and miles from the coast. It's not a Masters. For whatever reason they pimp it. They even call it (St Augustine) when it's actually Jacksonville. The world golf village is 30 minutes south half way to St Augustine. I sincerely think y'all have been listening to mainstream media and haven't really any opinions of your own. Cool field? Yes. Great course?......not a chance. I'd much rather see a major at Pebble Beach every year than a flat subdivision course like Sawgrass. Go Dawgs🤪

 

 

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[Undershooter]

I'm not sure I've watched a PGA Championship. Maybe. It should go away. Sawgrass is fun kinda like Phoenix and all but it's a cheesy coastal course that's completely flat and miles from the coast. It's not a Masters. For whatever reason they pimp it. They even call it (St Augustine) when it's actually Jacksonville. The world golf village is 30 minutes south half way to St Augustine. I sincerely think y'all have been listening to mainstream media and haven't really any opinions of your own. Cool field? Yes. Great course?......not a chance. I'd much rather see a major at Pebble Beach every year than a flat subdivision course like Sawgrass. Go Dawgs

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I find it hilarious that someone brings up Sawgrass not being a great/exciting golf course that's pumped up by the media. And then they bring up Pebble as an alternative to host a major every year lol

 

Pebble is not nearly as good as people make it out to be. Sure there are beautiful views but the changes over the years haven't helped it. Its not even the best course on its own property.

[Undershooter]

Everyone saw Webb walking away with this on Thursday morning right? Lol

[gaussman1]

Which Monterey Peninsula course do you believe is "better than Pebble" ?

And Pebble's "changes over the years", as far as I know, included acquiring some land to reroute the par 3 5th hole (this is widely regarded as positive change). Also, a few years back a sea wall was constructed alongside the 18th green area (necessary to prevent land erosion).

So..... which "changes over the years haven't helped " Pebble Beach Golf Course?

I can't speak to the changes on Pebble but personally I think Spyglass is a better golf course. I found PB to be a pretty pedestrian course with a stretch of amazing holes from 6-10. Spyglass tested every club in the bag for 18 holes.

[revkev]

I'm not sure I've watched a PGA Championship. Maybe. It should go away. Sawgrass is fun kinda like Phoenix and all but it's a cheesy coastal course that's completely flat and miles from the coast. It's not a Masters. For whatever reason they pimp it. They even call it (St Augustine) when it's actually Jacksonville. The world golf village is 30 minutes south half way to St Augustine. I sincerely think y'all have been listening to mainstream media and haven't really any opinions of your own. Cool field? Yes. Great course?......not a chance. I'd much rather see a major at Pebble Beach every year than a flat subdivision course like Sawgrass. Go Dawgs🤪

 

 

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Interesting, certainly we each are entitled to our opinion. Ive played both courses and like many people would say that Sawgrass is the better golf course holes 1-18. No dogs there where as Pebble has a few and a silly easy start. Also there are struggles with the condition of the greens there, always have been.

 

However Pebble is on an incredibly beautiful property and it's a very natural course where as Sawgrass had lots of dirt moved. For that reason some prefer Pebble as a golf course.

 

 

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[Comemonday]

I love pebble on tv. I've never played it but I would choose it and many great tv courses over saw grass. I was trying to say if you want a fifth major played at the same course every year I wouldn't pick saw grass or harbor town etc. very boring for tv. Tv needs drama.

 

 

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[Comemonday]

Let me flesh this out a bit. They play the PGA at Eastlake, 25 minutes from me with no traffic. For whatever reason that course gets promoted as a great course. I feel it's bland on tv and I've played it. It's super boring!!!!. Par 4 up par 4 back. It simply isn't a great golf course. Well maintained yes. Hard? No. It's a walking course from the 1900s. There are so many better tracks in Georgia that I said if it was a public course I wouldn't choose to play there. I want a dramatic jaw dropping course if we are talking a fifth major played there every year. The kind of course you dream to play. I want ocean and wind, mountains and desert. Maybe even mix a jungle aka rain Forrest hole or two. Snow would be awesome too. Don't bore me with saw grass. A hot muggy flat subdivision golf course not different from a hundred others in fl.

 

 

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[Undershooter]

Let me flesh this out a bit. They play the PGA at Eastlake, 25 minutes from me with no traffic. For whatever reason that course gets promoted as a great course. I feel it's bland on tv and I've played it. It's super boring!!!!. Par 4 up par 4 back. It simply isn't a great golf course. Well maintained yes. Hard? No. It's a walking course from the 1900s. There are so many better tracks in Georgia that I said if it was a public course I wouldn't choose to play there. I want a dramatic jaw dropping course if we are talking a fifth major played there every year. The kind of course you dream to play. I want ocean and wind, mountains and desert. Maybe even mix a jungle aka rain Forrest hole or two. Snow would be awesome too. Don't bore me with saw grass. A hot muggy flat subdivision golf course not different from a hundred others in fl.

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Man... haha you are talking about the TOUR CHAMPIONSHIP, not the PGA championship. Which is a rotating venue.

Eastlake is currently where the tour championship has been played.

The PGA on the other hand gets all kinds of courses. Everything from Baltastrol to Whistling straights, Bethpage Black, Quail hollow, Valhalla and Oakland Hills. Great historic courses. It generally requires good driving of the ball to win.

 

The Tour Championship isn't even a major... And has never been in the discussion to be one. 

 

Edit: I suck at typing/proofreading 

[criley4way]

It cant be the 5th Major for 1 simple reason, as good as TPC is, it is not Agusta. For the Players to be a Major it would have to be at the same club each year and I dont see the same special aspect as The Masters.

 

If you are looking for a 5th major look to Europe of Asia.

[Rickp]

Everyone saw Webb walking away with this on Thursday morning right? Lol

Congratulations to Webb Simpson. Never knew too much about him except he's a Major winner who used one of the banned putters. Anyway he did good and hope he enjoys his well earned victory.

 

 

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[tony@CIC]

I was just reading the prize money earned.  The18th hole 3 putt cost him 770,000. Yikes! 

[Undershooter]

Which Monterey Peninsula course do you believe is "better than Pebble" ?

And Pebble's "changes over the years", as far as I know, included acquiring some land to reroute the par 3 5th hole (this is widely regarded as positive change). Also, a few years back a sea wall was constructed alongside the 18th green area (necessary to prevent land erosion). 

So..... which "changes over the years haven't helped " Pebble Beach Golf Course?

At the very least, Spyglass. At least for the pros. If you bring all of Monterey Peninsula into play then there are quite a few that are better. 

I'm not saying that Pebble is a bad golf course by any means. But it is 100% a media darling and has been pumped up in most people's mind by the great views and pretty scenery. There are quite a few good holes on property, but if you moved the golf course from the coast line, would it still be "special"? I'm not so sure.

 

As for the changes, google pics from the course from 1920s/30s/40s and so on. It looks vastly different. https://www.golfchannel.com/sites/default/files/video/thumbnail/2017/02/22/2017-02-22t13-19-45.033z--1280x720.jpgThere have been many. Most of them somewhat subtle but they change how the course plays. I'm sure there are articles on it somewhere. I think I remember the fried egg posting a few.