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GSwag

Hero World Challenge and the OWGR

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I'm going to come right out and say it.  I think giving World Golf Ranking Points to 18 golfers who are playing in a no-cut invitational that Tiger created is wrong.  And not only are they giving OWGR points out, but a LOT of them.  You can play four really horrible rounds of golf and walk away with at least 2.4 points, like Brooks Koepka did last year.  He would have missed the cut at any other event on the PGA Tour, but here he's rewarded for finishing last.

I don't have as much of a problem giving points at WGC events, because it's a larger field, but rewarding your 17 buddies and yourself for playing in a charity event that has Tiger's name on it is wrong.

Let's look at this another way.  Put yourself in that event, and play all four rounds.  For me, I can go out an shoot my mid-80s tournament rounds of golf and all of a sudden I get 2.4 points, and am now one of the top ??? golfers in the world.  Please tell me I'm missing something here, because this has to be a complete joke and makes the OWGR that much more of a joke then it already is.

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4 minutes ago, GSwag said:

I'm going to come right out and say it.  I think giving World Golf Ranking Points to 18 golfers who are playing in a no-cut invitational that Tiger created is wrong. 

Looks more like a "participation award" than one awarded for performance. 

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1 hour ago, GSwag said:

I'm going to come right out and say it.  I think giving World Golf Ranking Points to 18 golfers who are playing in a no-cut invitational that Tiger created is wrong.  And not only are they giving OWGR points out, but a LOT of them.  You can play four really horrible rounds of golf and walk away with at least 2.4 points, like Brooks Koepka did last year.  He would have missed the cut at any other event on the PGA Tour, but here he's rewarded for finishing last.

I don't have as much of a problem giving points at WGC events, because it's a larger field, but rewarding your 17 buddies and yourself for playing in a charity event that has Tiger's name on it is wrong.

Let's look at this another way.  Put yourself in that event, and play all four rounds.  For me, I can go out an shoot my mid-80s tournament rounds of golf and all of a sudden I get 2.4 points, and am now one of the top ??? golfers in the world.  Please tell me I'm missing something here, because this has to be a complete joke and makes the OWGR that much more of a joke then it already is.

It’s a limited field event that still requires qualifying to get in. It’s not the only no cut tournament during the year.

if it’s 18 or 54 golfers does it matter?

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6 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s a limited field event that still requires qualifying to get in. It’s not the only no cut tournament during the year.

if it’s 18 or 54 golfers does it matter?

what qualifying?  And yes, I think field size does matter.  Frankly, I think the Tour Championship shouldn't count towards OWGR points either.  Perhaps we need a minimum of 50 or 60 players in a tournament to qualify for ranking points.  The way this is set up just makes it too easy for top players to gain points without really doing anything to earn them.

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26 minutes ago, GSwag said:

what qualifying?  And yes, I think field size does matter.  Frankly, I think the Tour Championship shouldn't count towards OWGR points either.  Perhaps we need a minimum of 50 or 60 players in a tournament to qualify for ranking points.  The way this is set up just makes it too easy for top players to gain points without really doing anything to earn them.

Exactly, I don't think the HWC should give any World Ranking points. I mean, maybe a few to the winner, but not the last place finisher. If you are rewarding them for qualifying, well, they already got points in from the tournament they performed well enough in to qualify. 

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What exactly are the qualifications for the HWC?

 

found this on wiki

In 2008, the field was increased to 18 players, consisting of the most recent winners of the four major PGA tournaments, the top 11 available players from the Official World Golf Ranking, the defending champion, and two special exemption players selected by the foundation

Edited by jacustomgolf
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20 minutes ago, jacustomgolf said:

What exactly are the qualifications for the HWC?

 

found this on wiki

In 2008, the field was increased to 18 players, consisting of the most recent winners of the four major PGA tournaments, the top 11 available players from the Official World Golf Ranking, the defending champion, and two special exemption players selected by the foundation

So they are basically giving you OWGR points for being at the top of the OWGR. That doesn't seem to make much sense. 

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14 minutes ago, GB13 said:

So they are basically giving you OWGR points for being at the top of the OWGR. That doesn't seem to make much sense. 

It’s no different than a WGC. Limited field, top X in the OWGR, some of the WGC dont have cuts. How does it hurt golf or tour golfers?

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16 minutes ago, GB13 said:

So they are basically giving you OWGR points for being at the top of the OWGR. That doesn't seem to make much sense. 

No it doesn't.  It shouldn't be a OWGR event.

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Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s no different than a WGC. Limited field, top X in the OWGR, some of the WGC dont have cuts. How does it hurt golf or tour golfers?

It makes the rankings stagnant. It doesn't allow for new players to enter these events and move up the rankings if you constantly pad the guys' at the top point totals. It isn't a huge problem yet, because there are still events with cuts and qualifiers that actually reward performance, not participation but if the OWGR includes more of these events, the rankings will become obsolete and inaccurate. 

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38 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s no different than a WGC. Limited field, top X in the OWGR, some of the WGC dont have cuts. How does it hurt golf or tour golfers?

Limited field events make the rich richer and the poor poorer.  Hypothetically, a top 10 player could play just the WGC events and the majors and never lose their ranking, provided they play well in the majors that is.  It's essentially a system designed currently to make it extremely easy for top players to collect paychecks at events where they are getting paid no matter how they perform.  Meanwhile, those just starting out, or who are grinding it out on the tour will never see those OWGR ranking points in a regular PGA Tour or Euro Tour event.  What was it last year?  24 points to the winner of the John Deere Classic?  36 points to the St Jude Classic winner?  But 48 points to the winner of the 18 man field Hero?  Come on man.  That's a joke.  Those are full field events, and I would easily argue that they are much tougher to win then the 18 man field Hero World Challenge.  At the John Deere I need to first, make the cut, and then throw up a ton of birdies just to get into the top 10.  The winner of the Hero can throw up a 63, on Thursday and just put it in cruise control as he monitors where the rest of the field is.  I've got a 5 shot lead?  OK, let me just make some pars and see where this goes.  Not to mention that because there are only 18 players, you don't have to worry about playing a morning/afternoon tee time split, or playing split tees.  And 18 players won't hurt a golf course, and your putting, the way 132 players (or whatever the number is) at a full field event.

Basically, I'm arguing that the OWGR is broken, and makes it incredibly hard for a player to work his way up the rankings.  But once you get towards the top, just put it in cruise control and call your accountant to ask how many millions came in last month for you doing nothing more than being rewarded to playing easy limited field events.

Incredible inequality, and incredible disparity between cut and no cut events.

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35 minutes ago, jacustomgolf said:

No it doesn't.  It shouldn't be a OWGR event.

It does and it doesn't IMO. The reason I think it makes sense is the same reason WGC events and the Tour Championship make sense. Limited field events reward those who play well with an opportunity to earn more cash, more points, and a way to maintain eligibility for other big events. 

I understand the argument about lower ranked players getting a chance to move up and awarding an 18-player event OWGR points does seem a bit unfair. However, golf is still a sport. You don't throw a football game to let some no-name school with lesser talent make it to the playoffs just because it seems unfair. The teams in the playoffs are there (hopefully) because they earned it. They worked harder, they practiced longer, and they studied their opponents better. I don't see much difference here. Limited field events reward players based on merit (minus the two exemptions as mentioned above). 

So basically, I see both sides but I lean toward not really having a problem with it. I'd like to see them open the event to a few more players, but that's probably about it.

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1 minute ago, TR1PTIK said:

You don't throw a football game to let some no-name school with lesser talent make it to the playoffs just because it seems unfair. The teams in the playoffs are there (hopefully) because they earned it. They worked harder, they practiced longer, and they studied their opponents better. I don't see much difference here.

Total threadjack where I am going here, but I'll use Alabama from last year (and a few years back) as an example of how your argument here fails.  Alabama has lost it's DIVISION several times (by losing to Auburn), and didn't even play in the SEC championship game, but yet, here they are in the playoffs and playing for a national championship.  So if you want to talk about a REALLY bad comparison, there you are.  Alabama didn't work harder than anyone else, they actually got rewarded for losing, by getting the week off and therefore being better rested then the other 3 teams in the final four.  So what a shock when Alabama is better rested, and better prepared for the final two games.  They have more strength and more endurance then a Georgia who had to play Auburn in the championship game, just to make the playoffs.  Alabama sat at home and the media ate up every whining word Saban threw out there about how his team deserved to be in the playoffs.  No you don't Nick; you lost your division.  You don't deserve anything.

It's actually a similar comparison to the OWGR and the top players.  They get to skip all the regular events, and just focus on the events they want to, which means that they are better rested, and better prepared for the majors, and other top events.  Meanwhile, some new kid who is just starting out has to play in any event he gets into, just to get a chance of making the majors, or other big events.  He works his tail off for an entire year, nearly killing himself on the road week in and week out, adding a ton of stress to an already stressful game.  And he's living out of his car, and staying in cheap hotels and driving to every event, because he can't afford Wheels Up to take him wherever he wants with his entourage.  His entourage was him and his caddie, who were last seen at Waffle House, because that's all they could afford after missing the cut last week.

Those prima donas at the top of the rankings, and the top of college football don't work harder.  They just get more money thrown at them, and get the best of the perks and privileges that come with having a name and living off of previous year's success (cough cough, Jordan Spieth).

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55 minutes ago, GB13 said:

It makes the rankings stagnant. It doesn't allow for new players to enter these events and move up the rankings if you constantly pad the guys' at the top point totals. It isn't a huge problem yet, because there are still events with cuts and qualifiers that actually reward performance, not participation but if the OWGR includes more of these events, the rankings will become obsolete and inaccurate. 

You do realize and understand that OWGR comes from more than just PGA tour right? So euro tour, Japanese, Australian, etc all come into play. OWGR points are given out at every sanctioned event and some events get more points than others. One event doesn’t make or break the rankings. They are also calculated over a 2 year period and on a 40 event basis. It’s one of the reasons guys like Rahm can shoot up the rankings. He had less rounds than DJ and others so as some of their events were coming off their calculations he wasn’t losing events from counting for him.

14 minutes ago, GSwag said:

Limited field events make the rich richer and the poor poorer.  Hypothetically, a top 10 player could play just the WGC events and the majors and never lose their ranking, provided they play well in the majors that is.  It's essentially a system designed currently to make it extremely easy for top players to collect paychecks at events where they are getting paid no matter how they perform.  Meanwhile, those just starting out, or who are grinding it out on the tour will never see those OWGR ranking points in a regular PGA Tour or Euro Tour event.  What was it last year?  24 points to the winner of the John Deere Classic?  36 points to the St Jude Classic winner?  But 48 points to the winner of the 18 man field Hero?  Come on man.  That's a joke.  Those are full field events, and I would easily argue that they are much tougher to win then the 18 man field Hero World Challenge.  At the John Deere I need to first, make the cut, and then throw up a ton of birdies just to get into the top 10.  The winner of the Hero can throw up a 63, on Thursday and just put it in cruise control as he monitors where the rest of the field is.  I've got a 5 shot lead?  OK, let me just make some pars and see where this goes.  Not to mention that because there are only 18 players, you don't have to worry about playing a morning/afternoon tee time split, or playing split tees.  And 18 players won't hurt a golf course, and your putting, the way 132 players (or whatever the number is) at a full field event.

Basically, I'm arguing that the OWGR is broken, and makes it incredibly hard for a player to work his way up the rankings.  But once you get towards the top, just put it in cruise control and call your accountant to ask how many millions came in last month for you doing nothing more than being rewarded to playing easy limited field events.

Incredible inequality, and incredible disparity between cut and no cut events.

I dont disagree that owgr calculations are broken but until someone figures out a better formula it is what it is and it works for the most part. And yes a player only playing in WGC and majors would be affected because when they arent playing they are losing points look st how many times in the last month the #1 spot changed each week.

see reply above about how the system works. 

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2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You do realize and understand that OWGR comes from more than just PGA tour right? So euro tour, Japanese, Australian, etc all come into play. OWGR points are given out at every sanctioned event and some events get more points than others. One event doesn’t make or break the rankings. They are also calculated over a 2 year period and on a 40 event basis. It’s one of the reasons guys like Rahm can shoot up the rankings. He had less rounds than DJ and others so as some of their events were coming off their calculations he wasn’t losing events from counting for him.

I dont disagree that owgr calculations are broken but until someone figures out a better formula it is what it is and it works for the most part. And yes a player only playing in WGC and majors would be affected because when they arent playing they are losing points look st how many times in the last month the #1 spot changed each week.

see reply above about how the system works. 

Oh, I very much understand how the OWGR is calculated.  And I also have a BIG TIME problem with the math being used as divisors.  The OWGR actually punishes players who play more than 52 events, and big time rewards players with less than 40 events played over 2 years.  Not that I am really picking on him (yes I am), but I think Tiger figured out how to manipulate the OWGR years ago, and just look at his history with regards to events played.  He has often been below 40 events played, and it's to his advantage to do so, because when he finishes top 10 in almost every event, he could literally play only 20 events and easily be #1 in the world, provided the events he plays in are top finishes and victories.  He did this for a number of years, albeit not to the extreme hypothetical that I am throwing out.  Heck, when he got injured in '08 after the US Open, how long did he remain #1 after he went down to injury?  In that scenario, Tiger was living off of the '07 season and some of the first half of the '08 season results, even though he wasn't playing anymore.

The biggest problem though is that the divisors actually punish a guy who plays a ton, like Patrick Reed.  Reed is consistently above 60 events in the calculation, but you max divide at 52 events.  So he's essentially wasting 10 or so events towards his ranking.  And not that I want to get political with this, but that sort of math is consistent with a socialist economy.  Punish the hard workers, and reward those who are lazy.  GREAT way to determine the best golfers in the world.  🙄😔

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44 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You do realize and understand that OWGR comes from more than just PGA tour right? So euro tour, Japanese, Australian, etc all come into play. OWGR points are given out at every sanctioned event and some events get more points than others. One event doesn’t make or break the rankings. They are also calculated over a 2 year period and on a 40 event basis. It’s one of the reasons guys like Rahm can shoot up the rankings. He had less rounds than DJ and others so as some of their events were coming off their calculations he wasn’t losing events from counting for him.

I dont disagree that owgr calculations are broken but until someone figures out a better formula it is what it is and it works for the most part. And yes a player only playing in WGC and majors would be affected because when they arent playing they are losing points look st how many times in the last month the #1 spot changed each week.

see reply above about how the system works. 

I certainly do understand that. If you look at Poulter, you can see how much one event affected a player. First off, if you look at him trying to qualify for the Masters this year, at the Match Play he was told that he only needed to be in the round of 16, he was, and then was told that wasn't good enough and that the field was set. I bet, if one of the limited field, no cut events hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been in that situation, and someone else's ranking wouldn't have been padded enough to get in. This one event affected Poulter greatly and would have caused a chain reaction of players above him padding their ranking. Of course we know he went on to win next week to get into the Masters, but that isn't the point. 

And as @GSwag says, Tiger abused the system, and the system fails Reed. The system isn't just broken, it is a colassal failure. 

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17 minutes ago, GB13 said:

I certainly do understand that. If you look at Poulter, you can see how much one event affected a player. First off, if you look at him trying to qualify for the Masters this year, at the Match Play he was told that he only needed to be in the round of 16, he was, and then was told that wasn't good enough and that the field was set. I bet, if one of the limited field, no cut events hadn't happened, he wouldn't have been in that situation, and someone else's ranking wouldn't have been padded enough to get in. This one event affected Poulter greatly and would have caused a chain reaction of players above him padding their ranking. Of course we know he went on to win next week to get into the Masters, but that isn't the point. 

And as @GSwag says, Tiger abused the system, and the system fails Reed. The system isn't just broken, it is a colassal failure. 

I don’t think its a failure. It’s flawed but it works and players all have the same option to game the system in the same manner tiger “gamed” it.  

They are independent contractors and the better they do the more flexible their schedule can be. Regardless of the system the better/dominant  players are going to be ranked higher and get more perks. Those that are lower need to work harder but that’s not really any different than any other job. 

 

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Maybe a overly simplistic viewpoint, but if you are really good, and win, then you will move up in the rankings. I get it, the points system is broken, but I think it is about right for the top 50 players in the world. If you are grinding it out week in and week out, you are not going to crack the top 50 no matter what.


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There is no way a “exhibition” like the HWGC should be awarding OWGR points, at least the Tour Championship is a season long race so it doesn’t keep people out based on their world rankings.

BUT, the biggest issue I have is the fact the the HWGC awards TWICE as many OWGR points as some full field events....that ridiculous


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