Big Name Fitters Don't Want Customers Who Don't Want Aftermarket Shafts?

[Middler]

I found a fitter that I trust, and I am anxious to buy a TSR2 driver and 3W - I'm not a tire kicker, and I made that clear to him. I emailed him on 8/24, and he finally replied on 8/29. I mentioned that I only wanted to choose from the shafts Titleist was offering, and an exotic after market shaft and the extra $$$$ just wasn't of interest to me. I haven't heard from him since, though I know they didn't have the new heads/cart in late August. I don't know whether to think a) he'd rather schedule customers who want aftermarket shafts at a considerable premium, b) he's not interested in my business until all the a) customers have been served, or c) he just forgot. 

Guess my interest in a quality fitting has faded some...I hate to settle for GG or PGASS.

[NM01]

It’s possible that he was hoping you would order thru them for whatever you were fit for and being it’s TruSpec they tend to lean aftermarket. I believe the fitters get a part of the sale, might be wrong on that tho. So the added money plus upsell for things like flo’ing the shaft he would make out with some extra cash if so.

Based on those I know that have gone thru a TruSpec fitting with stock options only haven’t had any issues with getting fit or getting their data to buy elsewhere. 
 

It’s possible he forgot since they didn’t have the heads in yet.

Dont want to pass any judgment on the guy about only caring about fitting for high end and based on all the positive reviews he has I would think he just forgot. Maybe email/call one more time to see.

Another option would be to schedule a fitting at Pinehurst. They are a titleist fitting facility and have a good partnership with titleist 

[Middler]

^^^ Thanks. What he said in his email “We can certainly use our matrix to fit you for the correct profile but if you are not comfortable with the upgrade we can use our accounts to order an option from Titleist.” I gathered they’d get a commission but presumably much less than if I bought an aftermarket shaft. Just not worth that to me.

[chisag]

9 minutes ago, Middler said:

^^^ Thanks. What he said in his email “We can certainly use our matrix to fit you for the correct profile but if you are not comfortable with the upgrade we can use our accounts to order an option from Titleist.” I gathered they’d get a commission but presumably much less than if I bought an aftermarket shaft. Just not worth that to me.

 

... One of the reasons I love OEM demo days at a range. The majority of the time you get a quality fitter, although occasionally you get a marginal fitter but never a bad fitter. Hard to complain when it is free. They are the exact opposite of the high end fitters and will almost always try and fit you into a stock shaft, especially iff they are working with the course for a discount on in stock clubs that day. But if you desire an upgrade shaft they usually have a good selection. I have commented how I lusted after an AD-IZ in the S/R flex and truthfully the difference between the IZ and Tensei AV Blue was marginal. The IZ felt a little tighter but again the Tensei was very close. Was it with the $200 upgrade? For me yes since I play up to 5/6 times week in winter and would always be thinking about the IZ if I ordered a Tensei and since I already have one, no need for another. But other than a little better feel and really just a desire to own the IZ I think performance is so close as to be statistically insignificant between the two. Fwiw, I also compared the IZ to the Ascent when demoing the Stealth and would say the fitting proved virtually identical to the IZ/Tensei fitting. I do think most OEM's offer stock shafts that are so close to the aftermarket upgrades for the majority of players that aftermarket upgrades are more a luxury than a necessity. Of course really high swing players that need to dial in trajectory and appropriate spin spin may find a stock shaft doesn't work as well as an upgrade, but they are certainly the exception. 

[Middler]

I scheduled a fitting online at Pine Needles for a driver and 3W even though I haven’t heard from the fitter. I don’t have any problems with distance (for my age) or trajectory and there are probably only a handful of shafts available direct from Titleist that would fit me, so it should be pretty easy - but I’ll pony up the $275 to see. I’m assuming a TSR2 at 10-11 degrees, since I hit all over the face (unfortunately). I’m guessing a 50g R driver, 60g R 3W and 75g R 3H - but I won’t try to steer or contradict the fitter. Exact same shaft weights I have now except regular flex vs all stiff in my bag today.

I’d love to find a demo day, but Callaway seems to be the only game in town. Titleist events are rare, and already full IME.

[edit: I am confirmed for a Titleist demo day with a Titleist fitter this Thursday - probably a better fit than True Spec actually since I won't buy after market shafts. I'm really looking forward to this event - outdoors, weather looks perfect!]

[Middler]

Did my Titleist demo day today, it seems it was a great success, ordered a new TSR2 driver, 3W(?) and TSi2 4h(?). The (very experienced) fitter was smart enough to make me see for myself that I needed a little more loft and lighter shafts - I knew it but didn’t what to admit it to myself (sucks to get older). Most of the shafts I tried were HZRDUS, Tensei and Kuro Kage. He offered me a Graphite Design shaft but there was no way I’d spring for a $200+ shaft upgrade, so I declined. Exactly what I needed, I canceled my True Spec fitting, wasting their time as they want to recommend upgrade shafts vs factory shafts. No idea how long they’ll take to deliver, but looking forward to new sticks on the long end.

[Middler]

Actually I wasn't able to place the order and I am having second thoughts. I hit these clubs well, but some shafts were missing from the fitting cart, which made me wonder. e.g. he did not have the comparable HZRDUS Black shaft for a fairway wood so I never got to try it.

My main question is I was expecting a progression of shaft weights, for example something like 60g driver 10.5º, 68g 3W 15º and 77g 3H 19º. What the fitter has recommended is 60g R driver 11º, 54g R 4W? 16.5º and 57g R 4H? 21º - details below. Heaviest shaft in the driver. Could that make sense?

I did hit the recommended well, but I only had 3-4 good hits with each shaft, and my swing/contact is not very consistent. I didn't have a chance to see the launch monitor results, just heard bits and pieces while testing, mostly 'that carried X and rolled out to Y.' My swing speeds were all in the 87-90 mph range. Like other fittings I've done it's mostly a blur where I can't keep track of what I've hit when handed shaft after shaft after shaft and various heads. Mostly I hit various models & weights of HZRDUS, Tensei and Kuro Kage shafts - as I was not willing to try more expensive factory shafts (e.g. he was going to hand me a Graphite Design shaft, but I told him I wouldn't buy one so I declined it).

Just looking for some guidance. I wonder if I should schedule another Titleist fitting when he has all the shafts and drill down on these? I don't like to replace clubs more than once every 4-5 years or more.

Here are the shafts I think I'm potentially buying, although I know the shafts OEMs use may not be the same as aftermarket with the same name?

https://www.truetempersports.com/en-us/golf/golf/project-x-graphite-iron-shafts/hzrdus-graphite-wood-golf-shafts/hzrdus-black-gen-4.html

https://www.mca-golf.com/products/5th-generation-kuro-kage™-black

https://www.mca-golf.com/products/5th-gen-kuro-kage-black-dual-core-tini-hybrid

Driver: TSR2 11°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: C-3 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Project X HZRDUS Black 4G 60 TSR Shaft Flex: 5.5

Fairway: TSR2 16.5°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: C-3 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Mitsubishi KURO KAGE Black Dual-Core 55 Shaft Flex: Regular

Hybrid: TSi2 21°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: A-1 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Mitsubishi TSi KuroKage Black 55 HYB Shaft Flex: Regular

 

[cnosil]

6 hours ago, Middler said:

Actually I wasn't able to place the order and I am having second thoughts. I hit these clubs well, but some shafts were missing from the fitting cart, which made me wonder. e.g. he did not have the comparable HZRDUS Black shaft for a fairway wood so I never got to try it.

My main question is I was expecting a progression of shaft weights, for example something like 60g driver 10.5º, 68g 3W 15º and 77g 3H 19º. What the fitter has recommended is 60g R driver 11º, 54g R 4W? 16.5º and 57g R 4H? 21º - details below. Heaviest shaft in the driver. Could that make sense?

I did hit the recommended well, but I only had 3-4 good hits with each shaft, and my swing/contact is not very consistent. Like other fittings I've done it's mostly a blur where I can't keep track of what I've hit when handed shaft after shaft after shaft and various heads.

Just looking for some guidance. I wonder if I should schedule another Titleist fitting when he has all the shafts and drill down on these? 

 

Here are my opinions:  

1. people on forums are generally more into golf equipment and when getting fit will question what the fitter recommends.  In your case you are questioning because you didn’t get to try everything and the recommendation doesn’t match your thoughts on weight progression.   

2. people always say I only had 3/4 swings with each shaft and my swing isn’t consistent.  As talked about many times, you only take 3/4 swings to see how the shaft works for your I’ll say unbiased swing. If you start hitting it mor times, you try to figure out how to hit the club because we want to hit the ball well.   Our swings are consistent and don’t change a lot from swing to swing.  The elements that are used to evaluate a shaft won’t significantly change from swing to swing unless you consciously try to change.

3.  You said in your original post that the fitter worked to get you more height/launch with your clubs.  One of the possible ways to do this besides loft  is with lighter shafts.  Additionally we generally swing the club differently with clubs on a tee versus off the ground; which will influence launch.  I’ll refer to my Titleist wedge fitting from a couple of months ago at the mid Atlantic MGS outing.  It was informative and I was able to see the impact of grinds on performance. After we were done the recommendation on shafts was basically stock should be fine, what do you want.  After going back to the house we were talking and one of the attendees was @McGolf who is a club fitter by profession and who I had played with that day.  His opinion was based on my swing the heavy 120gr steel verses my 85 gram iron shafts was a big reason I struggled  with the short game.  Basically I had to work too hard when making that jump.  We replaced my wedge shafts with 90 gram shafts and my wedge play has improved significantly.  With my personal experimentation I found that I really like lighter weight shafts even though I can swing 120 gram shafts with no  issue.  Basically good fitters look at you swing and how you move the club though the swing to determine the direction they go.  

4.you said you hit the recommended clubs well, what more do you want?  If the missing shafts were in the cart and he didn’t have you hit them would you still question the recommendation?  If you have doubts, go to another Titleist fitting, but remember that you may get completely different recommendations from this fitting; there are multiple ways to get to the same goal.  

just based on past posts you have made, I don’t think you should buy these clubs. It isn’t becuase I don’t think they might be the right fit, but because you have doubts about the clubs and if they don’t perform the way you expect them to perform, you will say the fitting was bad and the above questions will continue to bother you.  Do another fitting and ask more questions to understand the recommendation or reach out to the fitter you had and ask him these questions (he might not be able to answer them since time has past since you fitting)

[GolfSpy TCB]

On 10/1/2022 at 2:14 PM, chisag said:

 

... One of the reasons I love OEM demo days at a range. The majority of the time you get a quality fitter, although occasionally you get a marginal fitter but never a bad fitter. Hard to complain when it is free. They are the exact opposite of the high end fitters and will almost always try and fit you into a stock shaft, especially iff they are working with the course for a discount on in stock clubs that day. But if you desire an upgrade shaft they usually have a good selection. I have commented how I lusted after an AD-IZ in the S/R flex and truthfully the difference between the IZ and Tensei AV Blue was marginal. The IZ felt a little tighter but again the Tensei was very close. Was it with the $200 upgrade? For me yes since I play up to 5/6 times week in winter and would always be thinking about the IZ if I ordered a Tensei and since I already have one, no need for another. But other than a little better feel and really just a desire to own the IZ I think performance is so close as to be statistically insignificant between the two. Fwiw, I also compared the IZ to the Ascent when demoing the Stealth and would say the fitting proved virtually identical to the IZ/Tensei fitting. I do think most OEM's offer stock shafts that are so close to the aftermarket upgrades for the majority of players that aftermarket upgrades are more a luxury than a necessity. Of course really high swing players that need to dial in trajectory and appropriate spin spin may find a stock shaft doesn't work as well as an upgrade, but they are certainly the exception. 

I agree with this completely. 

I have been extremely lucky to have initially attended a fitting day at my club for my Titleist irons, then another fitting day for my TSi, and then this year for the TSR Driver and again for the Fairways.  All were with the same Titleist fitter and his travelling cart - he has been fair with me in testing both stock shafts and upgraded shafts (which would be the upgrades offered through Titleist - not the full feature of exotic shafts from 3rd party fitters - CC, GT, etc).  So I trust him, and we can start the conversation with knowledge of each other and what my swing is... which helps get to the correct end point and faster.  I kiddingly asked to be added to his outlook calendar distribution list so I can be sure to always catch his fitting days... but that may have been going a bit to far... haha. 

But I really hesitate to use the pay for fitting locations for a couple of reasons.. A) whose interest are the most serving?  B) does my swing require the $$$ to get fit and C) I'm interested in the performance differences between the shafts (from stock to exotic upgrades) but I'm NOT interested in the hard sell tactics (which is even worse in a commission based system). 

I'll stick with my guy (though if I look at other brands... I'll have to find another guy). 

[vandyland]

On 10/1/2022 at 12:47 PM, Middler said:

I mentioned that I only wanted to choose from the shafts Titleist was offering

This is me as well. I am likely going to try to do a hybrid fitting at some point and I am very much in the camp of "surely there is a stock shaft that will work." To me, if I can't hit a hybrid decently with the stock shaft offerings then I'm just not going to get along with that head or loft setup. I am surely there are marginal benefits from going through a ton of shafts and finding the best one but I cannot, in good conscience, spend a crap ton of money on a shaft. I just won't do it. I'm not good enough at golf. The example I probably carry with me too much is one of the best performing clubs I have is a component hybrid I built for $75 new with a shaft that literally costs $12 by itself. The idea that I would pay $125 upcharge for an Oban Devotion TR shaft is crazy. I don't begrudge anyone that does that but couldn't be me.

Unfortunately that hybrid style that I built only goes down to 21* and I (think) I need something in the 17*-18* range but we will see. Definitely don't need it right at this moment. 

[chisag]

15 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I am likely going to try to do a hybrid fitting at some point and I am very much in the camp of "surely there is a stock shaft that will work."

 

... All the OEM's do testing in an attempt to come up with a few stock shafts that fit the majority of players. Golfers not on forums and completely ignorant when it coms to equipment know nothing about heads, shafts and grips. They just hit a club and either like it or not. Could be the shaft or the head is either the wrong flex or loft but for most if they hit it well they buy it. If they don't hit it well they won't buy it. The shaft simply isn't in their decision to buy so the OEMs have to offer a shaft that fits most players because 0% are going to think lets try this head with a stronger/weaker shaft or let's keep this shaft and go up/down in loft. Just think of how many players you have run across that have a bal in your fairway or a partner you are looking fr their ball and say "it's a Titleist" and when asked what kind of Titleist, they have no idea. My favorite is the guy playing a Titleist Velocity and asking why he can't spin his ProV1 like my Maxfli Tours and when I told him he isn't playing a ProV1 with a urethane cover he was confused because he thought all Titleist balls are ProV1's and he was playing a ProV1 Velocity that was longer than the tour ProV1. 
 

... I was in line at the PGA Show demo day behind a PGA Club Pro that played the previous years Titleist driver with a GD-DI shaft. When it was his turn to hit, the AD-DI was being used by someone else and the rep gave him a stock shaft in X flex and it was a driving exhibition. He turned to me and said it was the best he ever hit a driver and hit several more through a small window and I am guessing carrying around 280. The AD-DI became available and the rep handed it to the club pro who said he didn't need to hit it, since he had one in his driver and was going to have Titleist send him the new head with the stock shaft.  

[chisag]

9 hours ago, Middler said:

Actually I wasn't able to place the order and I am having second thoughts. I hit these clubs well, but some shafts were missing from the fitting cart, which made me wonder. e.g. he did not have the comparable HZRDUS Black shaft for a fairway wood so I never got to try it.

My main question is I was expecting a progression of shaft weights, for example something like 60g driver 10.5º, 68g 3W 15º and 77g 3H 19º. What the fitter has recommended is 60g R driver 11º, 54g R 4W? 16.5º and 57g R 4H? 21º - details below. Heaviest shaft in the driver. Could that make sense?

 

... I am a big believer in whatever works, works. One of the things I learned going to demo day at the PGA Show was when hitting everything from every OEM there we're always clubs that surprised me. By my 2nd year I no longer held my pre conceived ideas about weight, flex or lofts. I have always played heavier weights in my hybrids for a progressive transition from irons to woods. Typically a 65ish gram driver, 75ish fairway woods and 80-90ish hybrids. I am currently playing 65gm shafts in my driver/3/5 woods and my 4hy. Testing during a TM demo day I hit these the best compared to heavier shafts so I didn't questioned the weight. 

... I have been through 5 free OEM demo days here in Phoenix and 1 was good and the other 4 were just awesome. All 5 were better than the full bag fitting I did before leaving Chicago at a premium facility that was more interested in selling me clubs they would custom build, than giving the actual fitting getting their full attention. That said, if there is any reason to doubt my decision like It performs well but feels light or heavy or looks closed at address or the top line is a little thicker than I like, sooner or later I will lose confidence in that club when swinging poorly. So if you truly question the weighting, I would go through a 2nd fitting just to take any doubt out of the equation. 

 

[funkyjudge]

And if those “made for” shafts that comprise a significant percentage of the OEMs’ stock shaft offerings look like “real deal” aftermarket shafts, virtually none of the average golfers, who do not participate in online golf equipment forums, know the difference. In the minds of the OEM Marketing and Finance Departments (and their owners), this is all the better for the OEMs. I can’t tell you how many golfers I have met and played golf with think that they have gotten a $350+ shaft in their new off-the-rack drivers, fairway woods or hybrids, when in fact they are playing what is probably a $8 to $20 or $30 “made for” shaft with a paint job made to look like the expensive aftermarket model (in fairness, those “made for” non-VeloCore Ventus shafts that TM, Tour Edge and Callaway offer as stock offerings are more like $80-$110 shafts).

Sam, you are absolutely correct about the amount of work that is done by the golf equipment OEMs to provide stock shaft offerings that are going to be a good performance match for their clubheads and a decent to very good fit the vast majority of average golfers. In my clubfitting work, I see many golfers who test better and get better performance using the stock shafts than they do with far more expensive aftermarket options. This is not always true, but it is the case in far more instances than the big-name national and international clubfitting organizations would like you to believe.

Edited October 7, 2022 by funkyjudge

[GolfSpy TCB]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

My favorite is the guy playing a Titleist Velocity and asking why he can't spin his ProV1 like my Maxfli Tours and when I told him he isn't playing a ProV1 with a urethane cover he was confused because he thought all Titleist balls are ProV1's and he was playing a ProV1 Velocity that was longer than the tour ProV1. 

Nevermind his less than ideal impact conditions with his irons.  haha.  I think I would just scratch my head and say something like "yeah, weird... I don't know..." 

[Bosox04]

How much of an improvement did you see when hitting the demo clubs vs your present clubs?  I know you don’t want to spend extra for upgraded shafts, but I don’t buy new clubs unless they are significantly better than the ones I have.

[funkyjudge]

10 hours ago, Middler said:

Actually I wasn't able to place the order and I am having second thoughts. I hit these clubs well, but some shafts were missing from the fitting cart, which made me wonder. e.g. he did not have the comparable HZRDUS Black shaft for a fairway wood so I never got to try it.

My main question is I was expecting a progression of shaft weights, for example something like 60g driver 10.5º, 68g 3W 15º and 77g 3H 19º. What the fitter has recommended is 60g R driver 11º, 54g R 4W? 16.5º and 57g R 4H? 21º - details below. Heaviest shaft in the driver. Could that make sense?

I did hit the recommended well, but I only had 3-4 good hits with each shaft, and my swing/contact is not very consistent. I didn't have a chance to see the launch monitor results, just heard bits and pieces while testing, mostly 'that carried X and rolled out to Y.' My swing speeds were all in the 87-90 mph range. Like other fittings I've done it's mostly a blur where I can't keep track of what I've hit when handed shaft after shaft after shaft and various heads. Mostly I hit various models & weights of HZRDUS, Tensei and Kuro Kage shafts - as I was not willing to try more expensive factory shafts (e.g. he was going to hand me a Graphite Design shaft, but I told him I wouldn't buy one so I declined it).

Just looking for some guidance. I wonder if I should schedule another Titleist fitting when he has all the shafts and drill down on these? I don't like to replace clubs more than once every 4-5 years or more.

Here are the shafts I think I'm potentially buying, although I know the shafts OEMs use may not be the same as aftermarket with the same name?

https://www.truetempersports.com/en-us/golf/golf/project-x-graphite-iron-shafts/hzrdus-graphite-wood-golf-shafts/hzrdus-black-gen-4.html

https://www.mca-golf.com/products/5th-generation-kuro-kage™-black

https://www.mca-golf.com/products/5th-gen-kuro-kage-black-dual-core-tini-hybrid

Driver: TSR2 11°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: C-3 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Project X HZRDUS Black 4G 60 TSR Shaft Flex: 5.5

Fairway: TSR2 16.5°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: C-3 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Mitsubishi KURO KAGE Black Dual-Core 55 Shaft Flex: Regular

Hybrid: TSi2 21°   Dexterity: RH SureFit Hosel Setting: A-1 SureFit Weight: Use Default Length: Standard Shaft: Mitsubishi TSi KuroKage Black 55 HYB Shaft Flex: Regular

 

Could that make sense and could that work? The short answer is “yes”, but in my vast clubfitting experience (33 years and customers surely numbering in the thousands), I find that scenario to be extremely rare.  However, I do have a current customer who tested best using a 65 gram driver shaft, 68 gram (before trimming) 4-wood shaft, and 54-57 gram shafts in his 7-wood and hybrids. I stressed “ before trimming” for the 4-wood shaft because, by the time it was trimmed to playing length, it certainly weighed no more than the driver shaft, and possibly up to a couple grams less. All of these clubs (driver, fairways and hybrids) were from the same manufacturer and were limited to two different model lines, with clubhead weighting and sole weight locations all very similar, and shaft profiles and balance points were similar (OEM Ventus Blue and Ventus Red models).

To confirm the data and recommendations that I made after his launch monitor fitting session, I met him at his golf course and had him hit the clubs at the range and in an on-course playing session to confirm my findings and to get on-course results with the assembled clubs. All clubs perform well and as expected.

Some players just do better with lighter weight shafts in their clubs. I suspect that this guy would do well with 53-57 gram shafts in his driver and 4-wood, but he tested well with the 65-68 gram (untrimmed) shafts in those clubs and liked the feel, so that is what we went with.

 

Edited October 7, 2022 by funkyjudge

[Middler]

On 10/7/2022 at 9:48 AM, cnosil said:

Here are my opinions:  

In your case you are questioning because you didn’t get to try everything and the recommendation doesn’t match your thoughts on weight progression. I am trying to NOT question the fitter, but I thought a weight progression like I described earlier was typical. Evidently the post below suggests the weight progression recommendation I got is "extremely rare."

You said you hit the recommended clubs well, what more do you want? I literally hit only 3-4 shots with each setup. Unfortunately I am capable of hitting 3-4 good shots, or 3-4 bad shots with the same club...  If the missing shafts were in the cart and he didn’t have you hit them would you still question the recommendation? That wouldn't have happened, he was more than willing to let me try them if he'd had them.   

Just based on past posts you have made, I don’t think you should buy these clubs. It isn’t becuase I don’t think they might be the right fit, but because you have doubts about the clubs and if they don’t perform the way you expect them to perform, you will say the fitting was bad and the above questions will continue to bother you. It may surprise you, but I don't have any expectation of new clubs improving my performance - when I hit a bad shot, I'm convinced it's my swing. I just want new clubs, that simple, thought I'd get fit. 

On 10/7/2022 at 12:44 PM, chisag said:

So if you truly question the weighting, I would go through a 2nd fitting just to take any doubt out of the equation. I will call or email him to discuss a 2nd fitting, but I may just order as is. Again, I don't expect new clubs to improve my results - but I might as well try to make sure I got a good recommendation.
 

On 10/7/2022 at 1:40 PM, funkyjudge said:

Could that make sense and could that work? The short answer is “yes”, but in my vast clubfitting experience (33 years and customers surely numbering in the thousands), I find that scenario to be extremely rare. That's why I am asking before buying, and it's consistent with what I've always been told. 

 

Maybe TMI, but thought I'd react to some of the comments. I really appreciate the comments I've received here and via PM. I will talk to the fitter again.

[NM01]

3 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

And if those “made for” shafts that comprise a significant percentage of the OEMs’ stock shaft offerings look like

This is just false information. There are very few made for shafts these days.

The ventus shafts for TM and Callaway, PX red shafts for TM and some they make for Callaway are pretty much the only made for shafts.

The retails shafts that are offered from the different club manufactures are just mass produced and several of them like px hzrdus are still high end shafts that if bought new from a dealer cost $300 plus

[funkyjudge]

Not quite; there are still a number of “made for” Speeder and Pro Series shafts from Fujikura (others, too, including Motore models). You can go to the “Shafts” tab on the Fujikura website and there is an “OEM Shafts” selection there. This shows all of the different “made for” shafts in their lineup, and there are still quite a few.  These are all current or very recent shafts, as Fujikura moves the shafts that are not in currently available OEM clubs to their “Legacy Shafts” page.  I am a long-time Fujikura Charter Dealer, and I use this information frequently.  Mitsubishi also has a “made for” line of Tensei shafts that are still in production.

[HDTVMAN]

The big fitting companies, not big box stores, make their money on shafts you've never heard of. They are aftermarket, but not necessarily the "real" models from the manufacturers. Many are no better than the stock offerings, but an extra $300-$500 in the fitters pocket. My suggestion is to go to a PGA Pro at a golf shop or private course, and tell him what you'd like to buy and if he can assist you. At a big box store, where I worked, there is ZERO training, and I went to California & Arizona on my own $$$ to learn to fit. Most of those employees are told by the manager to sell sell sell, and move to the next customer. See a PGA Pro.

[Eric K]

Getting fitted, at least for me, proved to be equally informative as it was frustrating. I belonged to an indoor simulator in NJ which entitled you to one annual fitting session for free thru Club Champion. In December 2020 I was playing a Callaway Epic GBB  driver with a rogue max stiff stock shaft. I was ultimately set up with a Titleist TSi2 with an Accra Tour Z TZ6 M4 65g shaft. The build sheet came in at $925. The difference was 9 yards longer carry. I did not buy the club. Two weeks later on a whim I bought a Steadfast stiff driver shaft. It tightened my dispersion and added 8 yds. Flash forward to December 2021 I went to a different CC location for another driver fitting. I explained how the last fitting went and that at the time I was not prepared to drop a hundred per yard. It must've flipped a switch because the fitter became a total ******* barking at me about how stock offerings are inferior and their job is to "get you into the best equipment set ups that will maximize my potential", blah blah blah. Once he finished his soap box lecture I assured him I was now open to the idea of an upgrade and I posed a challenge to him. Build me a driver that can beat my current set up. After 90 mins of testing, he could not. Despite preaching the gospel of his fitting ability he accepted the fact that he hit a wall. 

On a side note I demo'd a TSi3 with a stock Tensei AV Raw White 65 shaft at the PGA Superstore last month. The results were EXACTLY the same as the $925 build with a $350 Accra shaft. 

I'm not knocking the fitting process. One of my regular playing partners had a full bag fitting at CC,  got up charged on every club with aftermarket shafts right thru the putter. $3400 when all was said and done. Thankfully his game has been transformed dropping from a shaky 18 hcp to a solid 12. 

My takeaway from these fittings are 1- demo as much as you can. 2- Take notes. 3- stock shafts are often viewed as inferior (in my experience) but upgrades can also just mean up charges with no true benefit. Make sure you truly understand the data and make an educated decision.

JMHO.

[GolfSpy_APH]

The job of a fitter should be to get said golfer into the best equipment for them and their game. That includes budget. 

[Karen Fisher]

I’m a cub fitter for demo days. Basically, the shafts are typically made for that particular golf club manufacturer. A hazardous smoke from one company to the next will have a different spec. 
As for fitting, I do not make a commission on any sale. At least, my big brand company does not provide commissions. 
The shafts are made specifically for the specs related to the club head. 
I would never buy a shaft without trying it out first. You may know that your swing speed is X but your tempo has a lot to do with how the club head will release at impact dictating weight in grams and how tip stiff the shaft is. 
I can put someone in a heavier shaft if they are more aggressive and someone else in a lighter shaft if they have a slower tempo. As club fitters and the guys/gals who design the club say, “it’s what feels goo to you and produces the best result.”

[ChuckZ]

When I go for a fitting there are two fitters in my area that I use.  I go where they know my name.  One is a Titleist Product Specialist who has been with Titleist over twenty years and very respected in the field.  His name is well know and respected throughout the Titleist family.  The other is a 30+ year experienced fitter and a get on the waiting list to get a fitting.  People from throughout the state come to get a fitting by David.  They both are the best in the area.  When you go for a fitting they will let you experience numerous shafts and they show you the results but let you make the decision.  No pressure to buy an upgrade.   We are not talking Club Champion, Golf Galaxy, PGA Superstore, or big box national golf chains.   

[Middler]

The first fitter hasn't replied to a text or an email, asking one simple question???

So I scheduled another fitting, with a different Titleist demo day. If it turns out he suggests the same configuration and weight progression, I'll be surprised but so be it. $100 well spent IMO. I did get a sense of which heads/lofts I should be looking at, and some shafts have already been eliminated.

Now I need to decide if I should show him the first recommendation, or just present as a clean slate to see what he comes up with. My instincts suggest the latter...

And I am going to ask to briefly see data as we go (not question or debate, just see), instead of hitting 3-4 shots with shaft after head after shaft after head...

[chisag]

4 hours ago, Middler said:

The first fitter hasn't replied to a text or an email, asking one simple question???

So I scheduled another fitting, with a different Titleist demo day. If it turns out he suggests the same configuration and weight progression, I'll be surprised but so be it. $100 well spent IMO. I did get a sense of which heads/lofts I should be looking at, and some shafts have already been eliminated.

Now I need to decide if I should show him the first recommendation, or just present as a clean slate to see what he comes up with. My instincts suggest the latter...

And I am going to ask to briefly see data as we go (not question or debate, just see), instead of hitting 3-4 shots with shaft after head after shaft after head...

 

... One thing my last fitter did was go through most every shaft that remotely fit my swing. Like your fitter, it was only about 3 swings with each, sometimes less when it was obvious the shaft was not giving me the trajectory and spin I need. Then we went back and hit all the shafts that fit a 2nd time. We narrowed them down to 3 shafts. Tensei AV Blue, stock RCH and AD-IZ. All very similar although the IZ felt a little better to me. It was clear I could play any of them with virtually the same results. The fitter didn't care which I chose although he did mention not to be afraid to choose the stock RCH as it surprises many good players. I admit I was lucky because the fitter liked the idea of a repeatable swing with average speed (96-98) and really wanted to see how a shaft that was on paper too soft or too stiff. 

... You may want to do the same if you have the time and after 3 swings and a good fit, set it aside and go back a 2nd time with all those shafts. What this does is take into account a shaft that maybe you hit poorly early as you were not timing it as well or a shaft that fit better later because you were warmed up and swinging better. Or as you stated earlier not sure you were swinging really well with any of them and a 2nd time around may prove useful. A good fitter should not feel challenged by you saying you had a fitting and were unsure of the results but would like a 2nd fitting to either solidify the results or see if it was inaccurate and you would like to compare after you are done this time. In essence this is what I did because with my first Callaway demo fitting we didn't have time to hit the Max LS and only used the Max. The results were virtually identical although the first fitter did not haven me hit the RCH but the Tensei AV and AD-IZ were the best fit both times.  

[funkyjudge]

15 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... One thing my last fitter did was go through most every shaft that remotely fit my swing. Like your fitter, it was only about 3 swings with each, sometimes less when it was obvious the shaft was not giving me the trajectory and spin I need. Then we went back and hit all the shafts that fit a 2nd time. We narrowed them down to 3 shafts. Tensei AV Blue, stock RCH and AD-IZ. All very similar although the IZ felt a little better to me. It was clear I could play any of them with virtually the same results. The fitter didn't care which I chose although he did mention not to be afraid to choose the stock RCH as it surprises many players. I admit I was lucky because the fitter liked the idea of a repeatable swing with average speed (96-98) and really wanted to see how a shaft that was on paper too soft or too stiff. 

... You may want to do the same if you have the time and after 3 swings and a good fit, set it aside and go back a 2nd time with all those shafts. What this does is take into account a shaft that maybe you hit poorly early as you were not timing it as well or a shaft that fit better later because you were warmed up and swinging better. Or as you stated earlier not sure you were swinging really well with any of them and a 2nd time around may prove useful. A good fitter should not feel challenged by you saying you had a fitting and were unsure of the results but would like a 2nd fitting to either solidify the results or see if it was inaccurate and you would like to compare after you are done this time. In essence this is what I did because with my first Callaway demo fitting we didn't have time to hit the Max LS and only used the Max. The results were virtually identical although the first fitter did not haven me hit the RCH but the Tensei AV and AD-IZ were the best fit both times.  

Sam,

That is what any decent fitter will do. We eliminate those shafts that are clearly not a good fit for the golfer, then begin the process of elimination by having the golfer hit the shafts that could possibly be a fit. I generally start with those shafts that appear initially to be at the extremes of those that might possibly fit the customer. My preference is to start at one end of the spectrum in weight, bend profile, stiffness in various zones and then switch to a shaft at the opposite end of that spectrum. The reason for doing this is that performance factors will generally be rather dramatically different between these two shafts and it is easier to explain why that is when the differences are more varied than when they are quite close to each other. The golfer will often give feedback pretty early in the fitting session (e.g. “I prefer shaft A over shaft B”, or “I like the ball flight with that shaft”, or “that shaft has a harsh feel to me”). This helps in eliminating some of the other potential choices at that end of the shaft profile spectrum. Think of it like when you get an eye exam, and the ophthalmologist or optician is doing the “lens A or lens B” comparisons to narrow things down.

Also, the fitter should ALWAYS insist that the golfer take regular breaks and avoid hitting lots of balls in rapid fire fashion.

Finally, I find it to be an excellent idea to return to a couple of the shafts that performed well and for which the golfer expressed a preference. This is the “validation” stage (sort of like when the eye doctor goes back to the two lenses that performed best for a final comparison). Usually, these final choices will perform very similarly, but the golfer often expresses a preference for one over the other. The reasons for his or her preference usually are ones that don’t necessarily show up in the launch monitor data.

[Middler]

7 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

Also, the fitter should ALWAYS insist that the golfer take regular breaks and avoid hitting lots of balls in rapid fire fashion.

Finally, I find it to be an excellent idea to return to a couple of the shafts that performed well and for which the golfer expressed a preference. This is the “validation” stage (sort of like when the eye doctor goes back to the two lenses that performed best for a final comparison). Usually, these final choices will perform very similarly, but the golfer often expresses a preference for one over the other. The reasons for his or her preference usually are ones that don’t necessarily show up in the launch monitor data.

I take some responsibility for hitting too many balls in rapid fire fashion. My left wrist ached the next morning, had to take an Aleve. I am not going to let that happen at the second fitting, another excuse to (take mini breaks) see data as we go.

If nothing else, I learned some things from the first fitting that should help narrow the choices. 

On the related topic, I’d never attempt a full bag fitting in one shot, my swing wouldn’t hold up anywhere near that long. Just doing driver, 3W and 3H in an hour felt like a whirlwind with the number of head and shaft combinations I hit. YMMV

[funkyjudge]

16 minutes ago, Middler said:

I take some responsibility for hitting too many balls in rapid fire fashion. My left wrist ached the next morning, had to take an Aleve. I am not going to let that happen at the second fitting, another excuse to (take mini breaks) see data as we go.

If nothing else, I learned some things from the first fitting that should help narrow the choices. 

Take a break, look at data (with the fitter, and ask questions as applicable), give the fitter a chance to switch out the shaft, take a drink of water, and do a couple of stretches if necessary — at least for you hands, wrists, forearms, etc.

Edited October 8, 2022 by funkyjudge

[chisag]

20 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Sam,

That is what any decent fitter will do. We eliminate those shafts that are clearly not a good fit for the golfer, then begin the process of elimination by having the golfer hit the shafts that could possibly be a fit. I generally start with those shafts that appear initially to be at the extremes of those that might possibly fit the customer. My preference is to start at one end of the spectrum in weight, bend profile, stiffness in various zones and then switch to a shaft at the opposite end of that spectrum. The reason for doing this is that performance factors will generally be rather dramatically different between these two shafts and it is easier to explain why that is when the differences are more varied than when they are quite close to each other. The golfer will often give feedback pretty early in the fitting session (e.g. “I prefer shaft A over shaft B”, or “I like the ball flight with that shaft”, or “that shaft has a harsh feel to me”). This helps in eliminating some of the other potential choices at that end of the shaft profile spectrum. Think of it like when you get an eye exam, and the ophthalmologist or optician is doing the “lens A or lens B” comparisons to narrow things down.

Also, the fitter should ALWAYS insist that the golfer take regular breaks and avoid hitting lots of balls in rapid fire fashion.

Finally, I find it to be an excellent idea to return to a couple of the shafts that performed well and for which the golfer expressed a preference. This is the “validation” stage (sort of like when the eye doctor goes back to the two lenses that performed best for a final comparison). Usually, these final choices will perform very similarly, but the golfer often expresses a preference for one over the other. The reasons for his or her preference usually are ones that don’t necessarily show up in the launch monitor data.

 

... Doug, knowing you for many years I have to think you are an exception. You love golf, equipment and I am sure that reflects in your fittings as you genuinely care about your customers. I wonder how many fittings are for driver only as opposed to a full bag fitting. Squeezing every club category in the bag into 1 hour just doesn't do the process justice. And most free demo day fittings are for 1/2 hour. The ole you get what you pay for. I have to say I have never been fit for the extremes and after several swings every fitter but 1 has started with shafts they think fit my style of swing. Even the 1 that didn't, started out that way and branched into the extremes because I was lucky enough to be his last customer for the day so he took an extra 1/2 hr and he even said it was an experiment because I was really swinging well that day and he wanted to see how a smooth, mid swing speed with do with shafts too stiff and too soft. In the end things turned out pretty much as we suspected and the softer shafts were a better fit than the stiffer shafts although of course neither were as good as the shafts that actually fit my swing and tempo.