Sorting through Swing Thoughts / Accountability thread

[vandyland]

Well, back to square one.

A little discouraged this week because I was hitting the ball very well BUT in looking at my swing I had two big compensations, (1) very inside takeaway which meant I didn’t really have to do Cast A because I was already very shallow and (2) my left arm is pinned to my chest as a result which Monte told me not to do in our first lesson. So I feel like I am almost starting back where I was a month ago or more. I am headed to the beach to play golf for several days next week so not the best time to be in crisis but I am committed to making it to monte’s clinic without abandoning this methodology. 
 

Safe to say I will be on the range for a while the first day. Not even sure what my ballflight is now that I am more neutral in my takeaway. Into the net it feels like a pull cut so that’s….not great. Oh well. I’ll keep at it.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, vandyland said:

Well, back to square one.

A little discouraged this week because I was hitting the ball very well BUT in looking at my swing I had two big compensations, (1) very inside takeaway which meant I didn’t really have to do Cast A because I was already very shallow and (2) my left arm is pinned to my chest as a result which Monte told me not to do in our first lesson. So I feel like I am almost starting back where I was a month ago or more. I am headed to the beach to play golf for several days next week so not the best time to be in crisis but I am committed to making it to monte’s clinic without abandoning this methodology. 
 

Safe to say I will be on the range for a while the first day. Not even sure what my ballflight is now that I am more neutral in my takeaway. Into the net it feels like a pull cut so that’s….not great. Oh well. I’ll keep at it.

Work on the not turn part of it. Set the wrist and push the the hands to 7. This will keep you from getting club inside, teach the wrist to set properly and have you in the right spot in the backswing. Hit lots of balls from this position, it help with keeping the arm from getting pinned to the chest. In the efficient swing series monte says he spends 80% of his practice time hitting balls from lead arm parallel as does almost every pro

[vandyland]

Thanks @RickyBobby_PR! I also have the efficient swing so I will bounce over there for the backswing section (again) because I feel like that is where this is getting derailed. As always, I appreciate your attention, RB. Hope all is well.

[cksurfdude]

On 6/24/2023 at 9:49 AM, vandyland said:

Well, back to square one.

Don't get discouraged! Very hopefully you're a much better and quicker learner than I am, but I'll publicly admit here that almost two years have passed since my first Monte clinic (third one less than 2 weeks!) and only recently am feeling that I'm just starting to actually get it .. and apply it.... Hang in there!

[Goober]

Persistence is the key. Some of the smallest changes can turn out to be the biggest ones 

[vandyland]

Thanks everyone. I was particularly frustrated last night hitting balls because of a host of issues, I will rank them in order of importance to me at the moment:

(1) I am having trouble "choosing" (again) between "The Efficient Swing" and "No Turn Cast". Even though they both espouse the same methodology (mostly) NTC is MUCH simpler but it causes me to overlook and forget about my lower body which I don't really engage with much if left to my own devices. So last night I watched the first two backswing sections (shaft parallel and then arm parallel) in efficient swing 2-3 times each and then watched the drills and then drilled for 45 minutes. There is so much info in there but it did get back on the right track a bit but I just don't know how I can play with all that information swimming in my head. It moves me back to like 5 swing thoughts which is....tough

(2) I have no feel for the length of my backswing. Doing the shaft parallel drills I started out closer to left arm parallel than shaft parallel. My feel and real was WAAAY off (Monte said a lot of people suffer from this and I certainly do). 

(3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own. 

(4) I am going to the Bahamas tomorrow and getting to play golf 3-4 times. But I don't even know how I will be able to swing with all this crap in my head again. AHhhhhh. Maybe I will just live on the range instead of playing? That would be a bummer. But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well. So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

[RickyBobby_PR]

39 minutes ago, vandyland said:

NTC is MUCH simpler but it causes me to overlook and forget about my lower body which I don't really engage with much if left to my own devices.

Practicing the pushing the arms to 7 o’clock takes care of this. It’s the entire purpose of the no turn. Iirc be hogan talked about letting the arms/shoulders move the lower body. Not to throw more at you but dan carraher has a drill that is all arm driver and when done properly it’s impossible not to turn, I mention it because it’s similar in theory to no turn.

41 minutes ago, vandyland said:

3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own.

I think I saw you mention something while reading one of the threads on wrx that you skipped over the backswing part of ntc and jumped right into cast a thinking your backswing was in a good spot. This more than likely is the culprit of what you are feeling with a bunch of issues. Arms and wrist not in the correct spot and then having to compensate in transition to make sure you hit the ball.

Theres a good chance he tells you that. He’s mentioned in threads on wrx about having students when they checking to keep working on what he told them last lesson. Iirc dlow received similar feedback when he first started with Monte and would do a check in.

47 minutes ago, vandyland said:

So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

As GG says play golf when on the course and know that the swing changes you are working on will eventually translate 

[MacTourney]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

(3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own.

Assuming a forearm pinned to chest is a bad thing not sure how that can be accomplished without seeing it.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, MacTourney said:

Assuming a forearm pinned to chest is a bad thing not sure how that can be accomplished without seeing it.

It is and it gets accomplished from and inside takeaway and in transition hips and arms not working properly. It’s one of the causes for getting stuck 

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, MacTourney said:

Assuming a forearm pinned to chest is a bad thing not sure how that can be accomplished without seeing it.

You are correct, that is almost impossible. It is my upper arm that is pinned to my chest, haha. Still not great. 

[vandyland]

Thanks @RickyBobby_PR, I will accept the encouragement. I skipped over the backswing portion when I first started (July 2022) but not when I came back around this spring. But I still suffer from getting too inside and such. I will seek out the dan carraher drill you pointed out. Also, you are right to go ahead and warn me that my initial problems in my swing may continue to haunt me for a long time (forever?) and Monte may have to tell me in person to fix my damn hip depth. 

I will try to just play golf this week. I still think that is such an important process to go through. More important than strength or flexibility or equipment. All that stuff matters to but the SWING is almost everything. World class players talk about how hard swing changes are so why shouldn't they be difficult for an average player with a job and family and such. Not giving myself excuses but rather trying to instill patience. 

[Kenny B]

3 hours ago, vandyland said:

Thanks everyone. I was particularly frustrated last night hitting balls because of a host of issues, I will rank them in order of importance to me at the moment:

(1) I am having trouble "choosing" (again) between "The Efficient Swing" and "No Turn Cast". Even though they both espouse the same methodology (mostly) NTC is MUCH simpler but it causes me to overlook and forget about my lower body which I don't really engage with much if left to my own devices. So last night I watched the first two backswing sections (shaft parallel and then arm parallel) in efficient swing 2-3 times each and then watched the drills and then drilled for 45 minutes. There is so much info in there but it did get back on the right track a bit but I just don't know how I can play with all that information swimming in my head. It moves me back to like 5 swing thoughts which is....tough

(2) I have no feel for the length of my backswing. Doing the shaft parallel drills I started out closer to left arm parallel than shaft parallel. My feel and real was WAAAY off (Monte said a lot of people suffer from this and I certainly do). 

(3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own. 

(4) I am going to the Bahamas tomorrow and getting to play golf 3-4 times. But I don't even know how I will be able to swing with all this crap in my head again. AHhhhhh. Maybe I will just live on the range instead of playing? That would be a bummer. But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well. So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

From experience I can tell you that you are not going to find it overnight.  I've been working on Monte's fix for my lack of height and depth of my backswing for over a year.  I know it's getting better, but I do struggle from time to time.  However, I cannot and do not think about swing thoughts when I play.  It doesn't help and it's a recipe for bad golf.  I would love to go to the Bahamas, and if I did I would not think about any swing positions or drills while I was there.  I would just enjoy the experience.  Save the swing stuff until you get home.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

13 minutes ago, vandyland said:

Thanks @RickyBobby_PR, I will accept the encouragement. I skipped over the backswing portion when I first started (July 2022) but not when I came back around this spring. But I still suffer from getting too inside and such. I will seek out the dan carraher drill you pointed out. Also, you are right to go ahead and warn me that my initial problems in my swing may continue to haunt me for a long time (forever?) and Monte may have to tell me in person to fix my damn hip depth. 

I will try to just play golf this week. I still think that is such an important process to go through. More important than strength or flexibility or equipment. All that stuff matters to but the SWING is almost everything. World class players talk about how hard swing changes are so why shouldn't they be difficult for an average player with a job and family and such. Not giving myself excuses but rather trying to instill patience. 

Here you go. You want to feel the arms swing to just past the hip and don’t bend the elbow and set the wrist late(opposite of the ntc but it’s ok for ths drill). Then on the downswing swing the arms again. Start slow with no ball, then as you start to get it speed up a little again with no ball. Once you are getting it with more speed then introduce a ball

[Vegan_Golfer_PNW]

@vandyland, give this drill a try

 

 

[MacTourney]

53 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It is and it gets accomplished from and inside takeaway and in transition hips and arms not working properly. It’s one of the causes for getting stuck 

Sounds more like an arm pin instead of a forearm pin, and yes those hips and arms are tricky little devils.

38 minutes ago, vandyland said:

You are correct, that is almost impossible. It is my upper arm that is pinned to my chest, haha. Still not great. 

A quality transition can have a pin but that attribute is a matter of degree and time, in other words, how much for how long.    That's when the pivot has the ultimate say in the matter.      

[Caddie1966]

5 hours ago, vandyland said:

Thanks everyone. I was particularly frustrated last night hitting balls because of a host of issues, I will rank them in order of importance to me at the moment:

(1) I am having trouble "choosing" (again) between "The Efficient Swing" and "No Turn Cast". Even though they both espouse the same methodology (mostly) NTC is MUCH simpler but it causes me to overlook and forget about my lower body which I don't really engage with much if left to my own devices. So last night I watched the first two backswing sections (shaft parallel and then arm parallel) in efficient swing 2-3 times each and then watched the drills and then drilled for 45 minutes. There is so much info in there but it did get back on the right track a bit but I just don't know how I can play with all that information swimming in my head. It moves me back to like 5 swing thoughts which is....tough

(2) I have no feel for the length of my backswing. Doing the shaft parallel drills I started out closer to left arm parallel than shaft parallel. My feel and real was WAAAY off (Monte said a lot of people suffer from this and I certainly do). 

(3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own. 

(4) I am going to the Bahamas tomorrow and getting to play golf 3-4 times. But I don't even know how I will be able to swing with all this crap in my head again. AHhhhhh. Maybe I will just live on the range instead of playing? That would be a bummer. But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well. So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

I am sometimes as focused on mechanics as it gets. My head gets full of swing thoughts and I am all over the course.   I play better when I don’t focus on mechanics.  
I heard an interesting statement on the telecast of the Travelers yesterday.  Justin Thomas was asked what he’s found that was helping him play so much better this week and he said that instead of trying to make a swing, he was trying  to make a shot.  Maybe focusing on ball flight or outcome will help you enjoy things a little more.

[Caddie1966]

5 hours ago, vandyland said:

Thanks everyone. I was particularly frustrated last night hitting balls because of a host of issues, I will rank them in order of importance to me at the moment:

(1) I am having trouble "choosing" (again) between "The Efficient Swing" and "No Turn Cast". Even though they both espouse the same methodology (mostly) NTC is MUCH simpler but it causes me to overlook and forget about my lower body which I don't really engage with much if left to my own devices. So last night I watched the first two backswing sections (shaft parallel and then arm parallel) in efficient swing 2-3 times each and then watched the drills and then drilled for 45 minutes. There is so much info in there but it did get back on the right track a bit but I just don't know how I can play with all that information swimming in my head. It moves me back to like 5 swing thoughts which is....tough

(2) I have no feel for the length of my backswing. Doing the shaft parallel drills I started out closer to left arm parallel than shaft parallel. My feel and real was WAAAY off (Monte said a lot of people suffer from this and I certainly do). 

(3) My backswing is causing me a lot of issues and I am finding it hard to "be athletic" whatever that means. Almost feels like I am starting over. Less than a month to go before Monte's clinic and I am a mess. Maybe that is a good thing? But it will be disappointing to go to Monte's in-person clinic and he gives me the same two things to work on (hip depth and not getting forearm pinned to chest) because I still haven't addressed them on my own. 

(4) I am going to the Bahamas tomorrow and getting to play golf 3-4 times. But I don't even know how I will be able to swing with all this crap in my head again. AHhhhhh. Maybe I will just live on the range instead of playing? That would be a bummer. But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well. So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

I am sometimes as focused on mechanics as it gets. My head gets full of swing thoughts and I am all over the course.   I play better when I don’t focus on mechanics.  
I heard an interesting statement on the telecast of the Travelers yesterday.  Justin Thomas was asked what he’s found that was helping him play so much better this week and he said that instead of trying to make a swing, he was trying  to make a shot.  Maybe focusing on ball flight or outcome will help you enjoy things a little more.

[MacTourney]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

(4) I am going to the Bahamas tomorrow and getting to play golf 3-4 times. But I don't even know how I will be able to swing with all this crap in my head again. AHhhhhh. Maybe I will just live on the range instead of playing? That would be a bummer. But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well. So do I go with a swing I know can get me around or do I try to incorporate this stuff on the course? 

Just play to play.  Get around as you already know how, then have a round of umbrella drinks to pat yourself on the back.  

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

But I can't have fun if I can't hit the ball well.

Love me a little McHatton here:  did you finish because you hit it good, or did you hit it good because you finished.

[vandyland]

Well, good news/bad news here. They have an awesome range and course! But American lost my clubs so I am in some rentals. It should be no big deal but I LOVE my LAB putter and my driver and they have 10 year old clubs here. But the conditions are excellent.

 

 

[vandyland]

Lost my swing quite a bit out here but still had a great time. My clubs showed up on my 2nd to last day so at least I have them. The course is quite challenging but conditions are exquisite. On of my favorite ranges I have ever been to as well. I need to get a video lesson with monte ASAP. I am playing quite poorly!

 

[BallsLeon]

Freaking gorgeous, that's awesome! And glad to hear they found the clubs!

[vandyland]

Well, old habits die hard. I was looking at face on video and I am not moving forward or “re-centering” much at all in my transition. I had a hunch since I was hitting my driver low on the face but the video confirmed it. I have a tendency, especially when I am trying to “guide it” on a tight golf course to just stop moving my body altogether which never works out. Well anyway, re-introduced a *slight* move off the ball at takeaway and then the recentering and flexing of the lead knee in the transition and, voila, good impact positions again. Just keeping ending up in the same bad habits over and over. Might need a groundhog headcover!

[cksurfdude]

1 hour ago, vandyland said:

Well, old habits die hard. I was looking at face on video and I am not moving forward or “re-centering” much at all in my transition.

hunh gee I wouldn't know what you're talking about there...

Keep at it. Golf is hard.

[vandyland]

Had an overall great weekend with golf. We got off the waitlist we have been on for almost 2 years and became golf members on Saturday....so I got a tee time immediately on Sunday. Played with a longtime member who was an excellent resource for information on the greens (which are quite fast and tricky with grain and slope and overall speed). Just had an excellent time. I now have access to a very high end range, a trackman simulator, tons of demo clubs and a really nice golf course. Very exciting! 

On the golf swing front, I have to hat tip AMG for making it very simple with their youtube short "How PROS Use Their Lower Body in the Golf Swing" which shows the center of their hips. It shows a small move off the ball by a Pro then the re-centering piece and then how far forward they get through the finish. AMG points out that this gets misconstrued as a "slide" but in their opinion it is just how much ground you have to cover to get through the ball. In practice on the range and in my round, I found this to also be true (at least for one day). Hit the ball really well and things feel much more on track than they did when I was at the beach this past week. Also, despite playing about 6 rounds of golf in 7 days I am still married which is amazing. The only reason I think I got to play on Sunday was because we had been waiting to get into this club for so long. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, vandyland said:

AMG points out that this gets misconstrued as a "slide" but in their opinion it is just how much ground you have to cover to get through the ball.

Yup, the difference comes down to the thought of weight shift and pressure shift. But yes the more one moves off then ball the more ground they have to cover in the recentering and shift to lead side. The key to remember is to not get outside of the ankles especially the trail foot.

[Goober]

Went back to the tour striker academy this past week. And boy did I have a really through lesson on sequencing it all up. This process started with half swings at the clinics learning a new release style. Which led to taking this half motion to a full motion using proper sequencing of all body parts working as one unit.

This one lesson was very simplistic but at the same time extremely complex. They put a curtain behind me suspended by a movable apparatus. My job was to have my clubhead ride down this curtain behind me. I couldn’t cheat it by going to an overly inside backswing, nor dipping my rear shoulder. Nor looping the arms. It was all from the motorcycle move that would let my clubhead touch the curtain. I would let it slide down slower as I would open my body low towards the target. I could only physically keep the clubhead on that curtain for a few feet. Then I would just let the swing happen. It felt like it my body was going in two separate directions. But as I learned feel isn’t real. And on camera it was all synced up perfectly. My old body was working as one unit. All these magical positions that some over (or over do) happened on their own with no manipulation. These Next few months at home will be a lot of clubhead on wall work. That delay of the club head coming down and behind me really synced up my body. Where some according to Martin’s assistant need more arms and hands first to sync up. I need more hands and club staying back as I opened first. My swing path , face angle all zeroed out after 3 swings using that clubhead sliding down behind me on that curtain. It feels like it takes me a year to get to the ball now. What a lesson.. simple. But extremely needed. 
 

the big take I guess for this thread is to remember “feel isn’t real” 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

56 minutes ago, Goober said:

Went back to the tour striker academy this past week. And boy did I have a really through lesson on sequencing it all up. This process started with half swings at the clinics learning a new release style. Which led to taking this half motion to a full motion using proper sequencing of all body parts working as one unit.

This one lesson was very simplistic but at the same time extremely complex. They put a curtain behind me suspended by a movable apparatus. My job was to have my clubhead ride down this curtain behind me. I couldn’t cheat it by going to an overly inside backswing, nor dipping my rear shoulder. Nor looping the arms. It was all from the motorcycle move that would let my clubhead touch the curtain. I would let it slide down slower as I would open my body low towards the target. I could only physically keep the clubhead on that curtain for a few feet. Then I would just let the swing happen. It felt like it my body was going in two separate directions. But as I learned feel isn’t real. And on camera it was all synced up perfectly. My old body was working as one unit. All these magical positions that some over (or over do) happened on their own with no manipulation. These Next few months at home will be a lot of clubhead on wall work. That delay of the club head coming down and behind me really synced up my body. Where some according to Martin’s assistant need more arms and hands first to sync up. I need more hands and club staying back as I opened first. My swing path , face angle all zeroed out after 3 swings using that clubhead sliding down behind me on that curtain. It feels like it takes me a year to get to the ball now. What a lesson.. simple. But extremely needed. 
 

the big take I guess for this thread is to remember “feel isn’t real” 

Basically doing the cast a move from no turn cast series, the wall drill that many instructors have videos on YouTube showing and what amg talk about in several how to shallow or how the wrists works video.

Also what AMG has demonstrated via gears that almost every pro does

[Goober]

30 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Basically doing the cast a move from no turn cast series, the wall drill that many instructors have videos on YouTube showing and what amg talk about in several how to shallow or how the wrists works video.

Also what AMG has demonstrated via gears that almost every pro does

It makes the swing almost run on auto pilot Ricky. Not only did it help my backswing  (can’t get flat like usual) . But also helped me not drop my rear shoulder in transition. Which causes a whole big can of worms in many. Need to see if I can get the specs on that movable shower curtain they used. Heck, I would bring that to the range as a perfect sync up warm up feel before a round. While hitting real golf balls. For me that drill was like a space age discovery 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Goober

[RickyBobby_PR]

31 minutes ago, Goober said:

It makes the swing almost run on auto pilot Ricky. Not only did it help my backswing  (can’t get flat like usual) . But also helped me not drop my rear shoulder in transition. Which causes a whole big can of worms in many. Need to see if I can get the specs on that movable shower curtain they used. Heck, I would bring that to the range as a perfect sync up warm up feel before a round. While hitting real golf balls. For me that drill was like a space age discovery 

You can practice the move at home to engrain it. Flip the club upside down. Wrap the grip in a paper towel or towel, choke down on the club so that you have some room.

If you did that for a few minutes every day it will start to become natural

https://www.instagram.com/reel/ClWkumcDEb5/?igshid=Y2I2MzMwZWM3ZA==

Yes the shoulder dip is going to cause all kinds of issues but it’s a compensation for a steep shaft in transition for most golfers or it’s used as a shallowing method in an attempt to hit up on the ball

[vandyland]

Played on the 4th and had quite the up and down round from a ball striking perspective. I played the back 9 twice...

The Good: I hit all 3 par 5s in two the first time I played the back 9 which came from amazing long iron shots which (to me) is a good indicator for full swing
The Bad: I shot 41 on the back despite being on the green in under regulation on all the par 5s (3 putted ALL of them). Bounced back with a 38 the second time around despite hitting NONE of the Par 5s in two. My putting is terrible at the moment. 

So I am playing my club all the time now that I got off the waitlist and the greens are.....insanely fast. I don't know stimp and I don't really trust stimp but let's say that I had a flat 15 foot putt that I ran 10 feet past. I am not that bad of a putter I am just struggling to adapt to how quick these are. Also it is bermuda so grain is extremely important. BUT THIS IS A SWING THOUGHT THREAD I DIGRESS...

Swing feels ok but I hitting a few shots thin again. I don't think I have hit a shot fat in quite some time and I think that is due to not dropping my trail shoulder anymore. Anyway, Monte's clinic is in less than two weeks  so I need to start getting ready for the abuse! And hitting the range a bit more now that I have a great range. Still working on the weight shift and not opening up too much too early, that will probably also be the challenge.