The difficulty of learning golf

[Goober]

This is kinda a post that piggy backs a thread I was reading here. It seems like people jump from one teacher or method constantly. Might be social media that caused this. I would even go on the extreme and say some even try a new method or teacher each week. Which is easy to do imho.. and never can fault anyone now a days from doing that. 
 

Anyways, in order to keep a student using ones teachings and philosophies. What would a teacher of the game need to achieve so the student doesn’t jump to a new method next week? Do you think immediate ball flight improvement after one lesson? Distance .. etc. Or would it be the elusive looking better on camera? (Which I think means nothing on the score card). What would be the biggest factor in your opinion? 

For me, improved ball striking and golf scores would trump slow motion camera look. But we all have our own goals 

 

 

[NM01]

The people who are jumping from method to method or instructor to instructor are looking for a quick fix. They expect that they will get immediate results. They want their slice to go away in the first lesson and first post lesson practice session or first time on the course. These are the same people that are changing their swing from shot to shot based on result or something they think is wrong. There’s not much an instructor can do to keep that person. That person doesn’t have a realistic concept of what it takes to improve.

Monte mentioned in a thread on wrx that he had a student come to him saying he was willing to do the work to get better and he could practice like 2 hours a day 5 days a week. Monte told him it took him 40-50 hours a week in the summer and 20+ hours a week in the winter during high school to be a D1 golfer.

some students also don’t want to hear they need to keep working on the same thing week after week. Monte prefers 4-6 weeks between lessons with students and even then he may have the student work on the same thing still. Changing movement patterns which really is changing motor patterns takes a lot of time. 8-12 weeks minimum using lots of reps starting with slow motion movements to make a motor pattern change. I heard the guy from rotary swing talk about it takes 3000 reps to master a movement. I’ve had conversations with personal trainers about improving peoples lifts. One of them told me it takes someone who has been squatting bad for awhile between 500-1000 reps of the correct movement before they actually improve. Having been thru some changes in my lifts it’s definitely around that number before things begin to click and more before it becomes natural.

All that to say those who have unrealistic expectations for how long it takes will jump week to week, round to round, practice session to practice session no matter what kind of honest talk a good teacher gives them. 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

What would a teacher of the game need to achieve so the student doesn’t jump to a new method next week?

The "teacher" would need a student with patience.  Anyone who wants a "quick fix", who would even consider changing instructors after less than a week, doesn't understand the learning process, and is bound to experience continued failure.  These are the same players who want a "new swing" that somehow "feels right."  If it feels right, feels natural, its probably the same swing you're unhappy with in the first place.  This is one of the few occasions where Feel really IS Real, a change in your swing should feel different, and quite probably uncomfortable at first.  

[vandyland]

3 hours ago, Goober said:

Do you think immediate ball flight improvement after one lesson?

For most people, I think this is unrealistic. Any significant change to a golf swing is going to result in some bad golf for a period. Your body is used to compensating for a certain motion and once you start moving things around, all those compensations start working against the new feeling. 

For the most part, I think chasing a "swing tip" is a fool's errand. I am not an instructor but what I found most compelling was to learn these things:

1) The issues in my swing that I will likely ALWAYS fight against. For me that is, in no particular order, (1) spinning out in my downswing (2) no weight shift in my golf swing (3) not releasing the club early enough
2) The feeling(s) that will correct the issues above.
3) How to identify, through contact/feel/ballflight/etc, which of those issues is creeping into my swing.  This can also be identified through video IF you know what you are looking for which is going to hopefully be taught to you by your instructor.
4) How to practice intelligently and efficiently to ingrain the good feels and battle against the old issues creeping in.

I don't have it all figured out. But I do know that the issues I pointed out in row 1 are probably never going to be completely gone. I went to an instructor hoping that he/she could get those out forever and that is not reasonable for me. Rather, I learned how to fight them and identify them and practice the correct feelings. A couple of times per year I like to do a check-in and, invariably, it is one of those issues that I mentioned but I just want to make sure the instructor feels that way as well. For once in my life I feel like I 'own my swing' thanks 100% to my instructor teaching me that. 

[cksurfdude]

10 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Changing movement patterns which really is changing motor patterns takes a lot of time. 8-12 weeks minimum using lots of reps starting with slow motion movements to make a motor pattern change.

How about measuring it in *years*..?

As to the original question - I believe a golf student has to learn how to learn.

No I'm not being redundant nor facetious .. the student has to be willing to commit to making a change, coming to sticking with that change and of course commit commit commit to really truly working on it. A lot.

And be willing to accept .. depending on their current level of golf skill, their current level of physical ability to implement new motor patterns .. and again their ability and willingness to do the work and stay the course .. these factors all combine in in determining their ultimate success...

So as far as *years* -- presenting myself as an example -- I'm reasonably fit and athletic but took up golf late in life...

.. had some lessons starting out which turned out to be the exact opposite of what one should be doing in a good golf swing...

.. as per Monte Scheinblum whom I saw in person for the THIRD YEAR in a row this past Summer...

.. and, yes, we were working on the exact same things for the third year in a row ...

And guess what?

After all that time, after a heckuva lotta practice and some more lessons and more practice .. I think I may be kinda sorta starting to get out just a little bit..!!

The student has to fully internalize that (1) yes this is a really hard game, and (2) yes I am really willing to commit myself to the extended effort required to make all the needed changes.

Anyway, long-winded way of saying most recreational / weekend golfers don't want to make that commitment...

[Goober]

Well said gents. I agree with cksurfdude. Changes could take year(s). I think the first year could be some erratic shots. But the 2nd year you should see some improvement. But also what Rickey said, it depends how much time you allocate to it. I’ve always wished the golf swing was more about fixing just impact. But it’s the whole picture that influences a good impact. It’s very rare where an amateur student has only one issue to fix. It’s multiple things… and that is what I think turns people off to instruction. They want one fix to make it all better. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way 

[NM01]

55 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

How about measuring it in *years*..?

It could be, especially for amateurs who have limited time to practice and for the most part want to be on the course playing with their limited time.

Will use use what Monte has said a few times on wrx. Pros think of changes in terms of months or a year. Then we can look at some high level examples. tiger took 18-24 months for some of his swing changes to fully take effect .granted he was able to have success during those stretches. Then we have Jason day who took a year working with Chris como before he got a win a tour. And lastly justin rose who has been working on the same feel/move for 11 years before he said it’s finally starting to click.

1 hour ago, cksurfdude said:

No I'm not being redundant nor facetious .. the student has to be willing to commit to making a change, coming to sticking with that change and of course commit commit commit to really truly working on it. A lot.

And be willing to accept .. depending on their current level of golf skill, their current level of physical ability to implement new motor patterns .. and again their ability and willingness to do the work and stay the course .. these factors all combine in in determining their ultimate success...

 Very true and there’s a good portion of students who will give up when they aren’t seeing immediate results. Some even think lessons and practice will guarantee they play better, but forget one has to be able to navigate around the course and make good decisions on the course. the vast amount of information out there can get in the way.

 

[Goober]

I personally think most of us will have permanent swing faults. That will always need attention too. I’ve noticed on these forums being steep is the biggest issue. I’m not sure if most will ever beat it. But with the right teacher and proper drills they can alleviate it. I follow this young man on YouTube who told me he still does his instructor drills almost daily. And has been working with the instructor for the past 14 seasons. He taught him how to loop the club down versus a steep pull down. On the course he said he never gets close to the practice drill look. And if he just naturally swings the club it will be steep again. It’s just amazing how we have our faults so ingrained in our DNA’s

As an amateur you have to realize unless you have unlimited free time. Changes are not one YouTube tip fixes it all 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Goober

[Josh Parker]

I agree with what @cksurfdudesaid about having to learn to learn.  I was self taught and didn't take a lesson until this year.  I hear what my pro is telling me and can see it but teaching myself to learn it has been more of a challenge. It's removing the old muscle memory and training it to do it a different way. 

 

[silver & black]

The best golf I ever played was in my late 40's - early 50's. I could shoot in the high 70's most of the time. I practiced a lot. I played 4 times a week. I took a few lessons from the local pro. He didn't change my swing... he worked with what I had. He changed my grip from interlock to Vardon. I told him how I had no confidence in wedges, other than right around the green. He showed me how to use my 9 iron from 80 yards and closer and be successful with it. It is the single most importent change I made... I no longer freak at the though of skulling a wedge from 50 yards...lol.

I suppose if you want to be as good as you can possibly be, you need to commit to a lengthy time of practice and patience. I have no desire at this point to devote the time it takes. I enjoy playing golf just as much as I did when I was a better player. My scores are low - mid 80's with the occasional high 70's thrown in. I'm fine with it.

 

 

[Goober]

I’m still awaiting the ultimate training aid. One where it will literally force you into a correct swing. Upper and lower body. Then we can feel what needs to be done. The feels might be as foreign as speaking Chinese. But that is what we may need. Sadly, I don’t think I will be around long enough to see an aid like this. I’m sure some will still find faults with it.. hahah. Amateurs and golf is where the game has always been at. But some of us are such train wrecks

[NM01]

7 hours ago, Goober said:

I personally think most of us will have permanent swing faults. That will always need attention too. I’ve noticed on these forums being steep is the biggest issue. I’m not sure if most will ever beat it. But with the right teacher and proper drills they can alleviate it. I follow this young man on YouTube who told me he still does his instructor drills almost daily. And has been working with the instructor for the past 14 seasons. He taught him how to loop the club down versus a steep pull down. On the course he said he never gets close to the practice drill look. And if he just naturally swings the club it will be steep again. It’s just amazing how we have our faults so ingrained in our DNA’s

As an amateur you have to realize unless you have unlimited free time. Changes are not one YouTube tip fixes it all 

Even the pros have swing faults. Monte posted a video of brooks Koepka the other Id stitching one. Jason day spent years with one that caused his back issues. Chris como changed that.

The pros are better at consistently marking the smae compensation in their swing. The amount of hours they put in practicing allows this. 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I’m still awaiting the ultimate training aid. One where it will literally force you into a correct swing. Upper and lower body. Then we can feel what needs to be done. The feels might be as foreign as speaking Chinese. But that is what we may need. Sadly, I don’t think I will be around long enough to see an aid like this. I’m sure some will still find faults with it.. hahah. Amateurs and golf is where the game has always been at. But some of us are such train wrecks

We all have different bodies and capabilities. There’s not singular training aid that would work for everyone. One of the cheapest and best ones is an alignment stick or driveway marker.

great drill right here 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-kuVOOl1B6/

[Goober]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

We all have different bodies and capabilities. There’s not singular training aid that would work for everyone. One of the cheapest and best ones is an alignment stick or driveway marker.

great drill right here 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/B-kuVOOl1B6/

Now that is a good drill. Good find Ricky

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, Goober said:

I’m still awaiting the ultimate training aid. One where it will literally force you into a correct swing. Upper and lower body. Then we can feel what needs to be done. The feels might be as foreign as speaking Chinese. But that is what we may need. Sadly, I don’t think I will be around long enough to see an aid like this. I’m sure some will still find faults with it.. hahah. Amateurs and golf is where the game has always been at. But some of us are such train wrecks

This is probably what you are looking for:  https://robogolfpro.com/ 

 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

Now that is a good drill. Good find Ricky

It’s the drill he gave me in my lesson with him. It wasn’t this specific video but the one he has recorded doing it for his students.

there’s a video on one of his students YouTube page doing the drill in a lesson

[Goober]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

This is probably what you are looking for:  https://robogolfpro.com/ 

 

That is getting closer to what I envisioned 

[Goober]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

It’s the drill he gave me in my lesson with him. It wasn’t this specific video but the one he has recorded doing it for his students.

there’s a video on one of his students YouTube page doing the drill in a lesson

Reminds of what the tour striker Planemate promotes. A lot cheaper and less of a burden taking that belt on and off. And something I can do awaiting others hitting their shots. Love it 

[chisag]

On 10/20/2023 at 5:38 PM, Goober said:

Well said gents. I agree with cksurfdude. Changes could take year(s). I think the first year could be some erratic shots. But the 2nd year you should see some improvement. But also what Rickey said, it depends how much time you allocate to it. I’ve always wished the golf swing was more about fixing just impact. But it’s the whole picture that influences a good impact. It’s very rare where an amateur student has only one issue to fix. It’s multiple things… and that is what I think turns people off to instruction. They want one fix to make it all better. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way 

 

... Like everything in golf, teaching and learning can just be all over the place. I will say this from my experience teaching, and I am ignoring those with great hand eye coordination that have the ability to develop a near text book swing, Golfers and Instructors should concentrate on doing what they already do ... just learn to do it better. I had great word of mouth recommendations from high index and some mid index players. I did work with some low index players but they were the exception. 

... I didn't take me long into my career to understand someone with a limited athletic background, that started their swing with their upper body coming over the top producing an out to in swing with little power and usually a slice. To think I could show them some video overlay of an ideal swing on theirs and expect them to strive for those positions was a fools errand. My job was to help them in Arnies words "swing your swing" but just do it better. Learn to incorporate some lower body movement and while still coming over the top, reducing that tendency and producing just a little natural lag instead of releasing the club at the start of their downing. Obviously a little more complicated than just that but if I could take someone shooting over 100  with inconsistent contact hitting weak slices and help them become better ball strikers with a more powerful fade and shooting near 90 hoping to one day shoot in the 80's, they were ecstatic.  

... Lots of different flaws and tendencies and most coming from an improper mental perspective like feeling they ned to hit up on a pitch to get the ball in the air. So an instructors job isn't easy and changing your mental approach which then facilitates physical changes isn't easy either. But I definitely had students that learned to contact the ball much better in just one lesson. The problem was as soon as they were not under my watchful eye, they fell back on past technique or over did what we worked on. For some it takes few months or even less to facilitate a change and for others it takes years and years, and as mentioned some will fight those flaws forever.  The bottom line is most aspects of playing golf and certainly the full swing is such a natural but simultaneously complicated combination of body movements and mental discipline and nothing about it is easy. And exactly why so many are addicted to the challenge. 

[bens197]

Learning the game also includes learning etiquette and timely play.  I bet you were thinking I was coming here to blast the younger / newer generation on pace of play...nope...

During any public rounds I've played this year especially, the guilty members were always older, retirement aged men.  Entitled and slow.  

Conversely, the younger golfers were more self-aware and would be more apologetic and aware of their pace of play.

[chisag]

3 minutes ago, bens197 said:

Learning the game also includes learning etiquette and timely play.  I bet you were thinking I was coming here to blast the younger / newer generation on pace of play...nope...

During any public rounds I've played this year especially, the guilty members were always older, retirement aged men.  Entitled and slow.  

Conversely, the younger golfers were more self-aware and would be more apologetic and aware of their pace of play.

 

... Must be a Midwest thing. Here in the Valley of the Sun there seems to be equal opportunity to be entitled and slow. It manifests itself in a slightly different way as the older players just see to go about things at their own s-l-o-w pace and couldn't care less if there is anyone behind them while the younger generation are looking at their phones and/or talking when they should be hitting, stopping the cart girl and taking their sweet time. I do think the older golfers are aware groups are stacking up behind them and just don't care while the young generation is completely unaware anyone else is on the course outside their 10 foot bubble. But the end result and entitlement is pretty much the same for both generations. 

[Golf2Much]

I've always thought that at the amateur/recreational type golf there's a difference between "learning" and "mastering" golf at our level.  There's a difference between "knowing" and "executing".  

My iron play got to the point I needed some professional help.  Luckily, we got a new certified professional instructor, so I set up a lesson.  We talked about expectations, my confidence over the ball and other topics before he ever saw me swing.  As mentioned above, he was very concerned my confidence standing over the ball.  He asked if the physical limitations created uncertainty and lack of confidence in my ability to hit the ball.   He was surprised how quickly I said no and that I always assume I will make the shot.  Every chip shot I execute; I'm assuming I'm making it.  I was surprised that the first portion of our lesson was going to dive right into psychanalysis.  

He suggested weakening my grip, slight modification to ball-to-hands placement and a slightly wider stance.   I hit balls for about another 30 minutes with better overall results.  I told him the challenge is to bring the changes to the course and consistently executing them.  I finished with "it took me 45 years to get this questionable swing, so I don't expect it can be fixed in 45 minutes!"  

Three rounds in, I've hit my irons better.  Most importantly, I realize it's the start, not the finish.  Golf is more than a marathon than a sprint.  The average person has to be in it for the long haul if they really want to improve and consistently execute in this incredible and difficult game.  

[Daigoro83]

40 Y.O.   Newish golfer here. 2 years playing now. Shooting in low 90's on good days.  I think early on, I jumped around a lot trying to find explanations that made sense.

When looking for guidance on proper movements, most instructors are the same IMO.  Pivot takeaway, weight shift etc. From a beginners standpoint, all good swings feature the same principles, at least visually.

Describing a 'feel" in a way that resonates with me, is much more difficult. (For me Corgono is the best YouTube instructor for this aspect of instruction)

From a live instruction standpoint, my breakthrough was when I found a local physical therapist who specializes in golf fitness, and finally helped my unlock weak/tight muscles that were preventing me from finding those feels consistently. Connecting swing flaws to hitches in the muscle chain/mobility was huge.  (Amazing what a long week at the computer will do to your ability to sequence properly)  

[Wakit300]

I guess I'm super lucky with the way my golf life started. At 14 years old I wanted to play golf after my Dad started (I was hooked caddying for him after 2 holes!), on a RAF base GC in Germany. Being a British run course, I was required to take lessons from the pro until the time he determined I was able to play on the course. I took weekly lessons and hit balls daily for a whole summer and was able to get on the course in the fall after passing a rules and etiquette test. Best thing that could've happened for me. From that point on I continually took lessons all through Jr High, High School, and beyond. This gave me knowledge of the fundamentals of my swing and my tendencies.

I imagine it would be hard to learn the game if you're chasing a fix daily or weekly on the internet all the time.

 

 

[Goober]

@chisag  , great post. You sound like a true teacher of the game. I’ve a huge believer that shooting good enjoyable golf trumps having a world class looking swing. I’m pretty sure YouTube instructors post the best of their best player swings. But rarely post swings of their players who are just trying to enjoy the game a little more than current. I for one like seeing the ordinary golfers on YouTube. Versus tour pros or high level amateur swings. A few instructors post the average players… and I seem to respect those type of teachers the most. Would say just about all of us will never swing the club like Rory. But doesn’t mean we can’t learn a swing to enjoy the game more that works for us 

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

@chisag  , great post. You sound like a true teacher of the game. I’ve a huge believer that shooting good enjoyable golf trumps having a world class looking swing. I’m pretty sure YouTube instructors post the best of their best player swings. But rarely post swings of their players who are just trying to enjoy the game a little more than current. I for one like seeing the ordinary golfers on YouTube. Versus tour pros or high level amateur swings. A few instructors post the average players… and I seem to respect those type of teachers the most. Would say just about all of us will never swing the club like Rory. But doesn’t mean we can’t learn a swing to enjoy the game more that works for us 

I see lots of instructors posting swings and changes if their students with bad swings. GG just posted one yesterday or day before on IG. Shauheen posts various swings from his students. Monte will post some of his students with varying flaws. I see less of students with better swings than those with typical swing faults.

Its been quite awhile since I’ve been to or seen a pro go for aesthetics over a functional  swing. 

[KC Golf]

I believe in finding a coach that you can work with that understands your goals.  If you don’t want a full swing rebuild then he or she should be able to work with what you have,  Not all instructors can do that, but you are the customer, so you need to advocate for what you are looking for.

Great coaches listen to their clients.  I respect them if they have a difference in opinion as well.  
 

[higherplane]

Have recently found that with a busy life, complex swing changes take real practice for anyone.  Recently went off the rails for a few weeks then took lesson.  This setup is much better - on Trackman added 20-40 yards per irons and hit much straighter.  However had two golf outings on difficult courses scheduled and went right back to old swing on back nine.  Still can't believe myself.  Either I get better at complex motion changes or start playing pickleball.       

[Goober]

On 10/27/2023 at 10:47 AM, higherplane said:

Have recently found that with a busy life, complex swing changes take real practice for anyone.  Recently went off the rails for a few weeks then took lesson.  This setup is much better - on Trackman added 20-40 yards per irons and hit much straighter.  However had two golf outings on difficult courses scheduled and went right back to old swing on back nine.  Still can't believe myself.  Either I get better at complex motion changes or start playing pickleball.       

We have all been there. Only way I could best old swing flaws is practicing it on the course. Would have a partner video me when he could while playing. Doing my lesson swing no matter the results. Don’t recommend this on busy weekends. Works best during a more wide open course. But just seeing yourself doing your lesson swing during a round is paramount. Sadly some swing flaws we have will have to be monitored pretty much continuously. Just have to believe in what you’re doing. The more you do it… the more it won’t feel as forced or contrived. Wish it was more positive news… but it is a very long process 

[Nobody123]

The biggest problem I've had is the instructor not really understanding my level of commitment, no explanation of the process and then very little focus on what was really holding me back from my goal.

The first two instructors that I went to had just quick fixes.  The 2nd instructor actually asked me why I booked a second lesson and then it took most of the lesson for him to remember who I was and what he had told me to do.

By the time I went to my 3rd instructor, I told him that I don't want a lesson but a program.  He then started with my grip and we went from there.  After a year of this technical instruction inside a studio I had enough.  While I was getting better on video, I wasn't getting better on the course.  I brought this to his attention multiple times and even brought some things to him that I had discovered on my own.  Eventually I had to stop taking lessons with him.

I told each instructor that I can hit a really good shot with every one of my clubs but not consistently.  The 2nd instructor did touch on that this inconsistency may be not strictly technical but then harped on one specific solution that didn't really work for me.

It wasn't until I read a book by Vision54 that I started to realize that my psychological approach was inconsistent from shot to shot which was holding me back.  Then I was able to swing consistently between studio, range and course.  Once I was able to do this then everything got easier. 

What are reasonable expectations from golf lessons?  Was my experience typical?