Shafts——Myths/Truths/Opinions

[GolfSpy_BNG]

Gonna start this thread as a place to discuss everything shafts. Opinions are welcome as well as myths and truths.  We will allow links to articles and posts to other “Experts” from other forums as long as it doesn’t get super out of control.  We want this to be a place to discuss anything shafts and a way to get the information out there without having to look at a bunch of different threads here. 
 

Also let’s keep it civil.  Discussion is great but backhanded comments and insults will not be tolerated.  If you feel a comment is out of line report it so the staff can look at it.  Always better for us to deal with it than have to warn both parties for negative comments. 

[Swood1994]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_BNG said:

Gonna start this thread as a place to discuss everything shafts. Opinions are welcome as well as myths and truths.  We will allow links to articles and posts to other “Experts” from other forums as long as it doesn’t get super out of control.  We want this to be a place to discuss anything shafts and a way to get the information out there without having to look at a bunch of different threads here. 
 

Also let’s keep it civil.  Discussion is great but backhanded comments and insults will not be tolerated.  If you feel a comment is out of line report it so the staff can look at it.  Always better for us to deal with it than have to warn both parties for negative comments. 

Should I start with the standard answer of.. go get fit! Whether you believe shafts make a material difference in performance or not, most of us will feel some sort of difference between shafts. The only way to do that is to go get fit and figure out what works best for your swing. 

[Patrick Dawes]

I will second the get fit but also add you don't need the $900 autoflex to get better finding the right non-upcharge option shaft from a manufacturer can be an improvement, especially in dispersion (at least it did for me)  for example I have a more deliberate swing tempo so the cypher shafts for Callaway work better than the stock Tensai shafts even when comparing similar high launch models.  

So I think myth one is you have to get the best ultra-high-end improvement shafts to see improvements when in reality a correct fit (to your swing) lower-end shaft is better than an expensive shaft that doesn't fit your swing. 

[RyanGi]

I was just fitted for irons for the first time ever (first fitting period). I was surprised (and super impressed) by the dialog about the complexities of the shafts and how they’re broken into sections, and how each section of the shaft brings elements to the swing (not to mention the overall changes from shaft weight, etc etc). Granted, I asked questions that drove the conversation, but the fitter was obviously knowledgeable and the trust-but-verify mentality has shown me his info is in the correct direction. 
 

Of course, you need to know your numbers, strengths and weaknesses to have a baseline to work from…but fitting was one of the best learning experiences I’ve had in golf. So much so I’m going for a long game fitting tomorrow, just to establish baselines and better understand what I’m doing in my swing and how to compliment it. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Two of my old clubs still feel like a glove, the shafts are a great match to my swing.  I use these on the range a lot.  I think about putting new heads from Golfworks onto them but for now I play with newer gear, practice with the oldies but goodies.  A blue Matrix Radix 16 side internal structure on an Adams 3w from 2012, and the red Callaway RCH 65 from the 2004 Big Bertie 454 ti driver.  Both reg flex.  Standard issue, not $$$.

[Gcaz11]

Hola! First time posting on here, But yeah I always have interest in shafts and what they can do to change my game but I haven't had anything tell me they will do much to improve anything.

 

When I have been fitted (just at Golf Galaxy or Rodger Dunn) I fit into a standard stiff shaft across the board. Now am I just the basic formerly athletic player all these shaft manufacturers design for? I don't know. I have recently purchased a used set of t100s with upgraded shafts that I cant remember what they are but I was told they were something special, and yeah they feel great, but are they making my swing connect better? No.  I still have crazy miss-hits and when its good its still really good. But better than a t100 with a standard stiff shaft? Not at all.

 

I think woods might have more to benefit from shafts, but I do not feel like it's more than flex and swing weight. The last two times I had been fitted for a driver I fell into the same stiff shaft. The basic off the shelf Stiff Hazardous black. For a fairway wood I have been gaming my old school Cleveland quadpro from 2005ish with a UST Gold 75g shaft. Kind of a heavier shaft in my fw wood and I like the way it feels compared to the newer ultra light lets get high swing speed options. But that is just what I am used to.

 

Now with all that being said maybe I do have amazing tech in all my shafts and I just don't recognize it, but to me these shafts are not anything special as they were not an extra up-charge like a Mitsubishi or Graphite Design. Am I just the perfect middle ground where I don't need anything special? Would I like a shaft to fix my slice? Heck yeah. I would totally pay $350 for a special shaft that would allow me to swing out of my shoes over the top and keep that ball straight. But instead that money will continue to go to lessons because that shaft doesn't exist.

Edited August 8 by Gcaz11
typo

[Overspark07]

7 hours ago, GolfSpy_BNG said:

We want this to be a place to discuss anything shafts and a way to get the information out there without having to look at a bunch of different threads here. 

This I love! I’ve got a bunch of questions that I’d love to collect answers for:

1. Fitters are observing the data and making suggestions based on some heuristics. What are those heuristics? What is being optimized? How could I do some self diagnosing or at least be informed enough to understand what a fitter is trying to sell me?
2. How can we compare across manufacturers? Everyone seems to use low, mid, high for launch, spin and kick point. How do those translate one brand to another?
3. What does one get in a premium shaft? How do you evaluate value options for similar characteristics? At what skill/handicap does this really matter? Does it matter more in certain clubs?
4. How can we evaluate historical shafts against current offerings? Especially since the heads are also changing. As @Donn lost in San Diego indicated above, would it even make sense to put a new head on a shaft you love or does that completely change the dynamic?

[Jakesy35]

Maybe someone who’s had more experience with fitting in general can chime in, but it seems like the amount of data collected during a fitting session wouldn’t really be a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions from. Like if you hit 5 different shafts, how many swings would you need to ensure that there’s enough data to determine which one fits you best? If you’re only hitting 20-30 balls with each shaft, that doesn’t feel like enough for the trends to stabilize enough to make a determination.  I’m asking because in sports like baseball for example, many rate stats don’t stabilize until 200+ plate appearances so the data isn’t as informative under that threshold. 

[jaskanski]

Myth #1 - 'The shaft is the engine of a golf club'

No it isn't. The person swinging the golf club is the engine that generates speed and motion. Without a human, the shaft would be an inert rod. The shaft is more like the transmission of a golf club (to use the automobile analogy). It transmits the power you generate to the club head.

Myth#2 - 'Flex is the most important factor in selecting a golf shaft'

No it isn't. Weight, length and profile are all more important factors before flex comes into the equation. And what is 'flex' anyway?

Myth#3 - "Aftermarker shafts are better than 'made for' shafts.

No they're not. In some circumstances, the aftermarket shaft and the 'made for' variant is exactly the same thing. Even when there are subtle differences between the two, it doesn't mean one is better than the other simply because of the cost difference.

Myth #4 - "the shaft is high launch and low spin...'

No it isn't. The spin is relative to the launch angle and the angle of attack. Unless your angle of attack is highly positive (eg you're hitting up on a golf ball sitting on a tee peg 1ft high) you will get more spin than a ball with lower trajectory for a like for like launch and face angle characteristics. The shaft may help to get the ball up to some extent, but it won't do it without an effect on spin.

Edited August 7 by jaskanski

[jaskanski]

1 minute ago, Jakesy35 said:

Maybe someone who’s had more experience with fitting in general can chime in, but it seems like the amount of data collected during a fitting session wouldn’t really be a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions from. Like if you hit 5 different shafts, how many swings would you need to ensure that there’s enough data to determine which one fits you best? If you’re only hitting 20-30 balls with each shaft, that doesn’t feel like enough for the trends to stabilize enough to make a determination.  I’m asking because in sports like baseball for example, many rate stats don’t stabilize until 200+ plate appearances so the data isn’t as informative under that threshold. 

This is a valid point, but after seeing 20 shots any decent fitter can probably see if any shaft at all is going to make any difference - ie the golfers swing is the main problem rather than the equipment.

You can collate some baseline stats to state - 'this is what you're doing with your current set up' - and then you can advise 'if you change to this and adjust this, you might improve this'. Usually this is a simple change to grip, ball position and stance, at which point it ceases to be a fitting session and becomes more of a golf lesson.

[Jakesy35]

5 minutes ago, jaskanski said:

This is a valid point, but after seeing 20 shots any decent fitter can probably see if any shaft at all is going to make any difference - ie the golfers swing is the main problem rather than the equipment.

You can collate some baseline stats to state - 'this is what you're doing with your current set up' - and then you can advise 'if you change to this and adjust this, you might improve this'. Usually this is a simple change to grip, ball position and stance, at which point it ceases to be a fitting session and becomes more of a golf lesson.

That makes sense, appreciate the response!

[Josh Parker]

1 hour ago, Overspark07 said:

Fitters are observing the data and making suggestions based on some heuristics. What are those heuristics? What is being optimized? How could I do some self diagnosing or at least be informed enough to understand what a fitter is trying to sell me?

Launch angle, spin and consistency of strike location.

You can absolutely learn about ideal conditions for "your" swing with some research and a LM to give you the data.  Once I got a launch monitor, I really started to get into the data and learn more about how to improve my swing or optimize it in order to get the results I want.  

[GolfSpy_KFT]

I play with a friend who has never been fit for a club in his life and last night hit a 325 yard drive on a short par 4 at our course that rolled to the back fringe of the green, and in total drove two par 4s yesterday. He's the longest hitter I've witnessed in person and has some crazy clubhead speed. He's doing it all with a Rogue Sub Zero turned down to 8 degrees and a stock Fujikura Pro 2.0 60 gram stiff flex shaft. He has drives that will balloon on him with tons of spin and I would love to see what he could do with a fitted club. I'm trying to talk him into going to a fitting this offseason for a new driver and hitting any/all shafts available. I think with a shaft like a Ventus Black, he would have more control and hit the ball longer. Yes, the shaft is only one piece of the puzzle, but there's no way it wouldn't help optimize it for someone like him. 

[RetiredBoomer]

When getting fitted, the most important thing is to let your fitter know what your favorite grip is.

Then, you assemble only the shafts that look good with your grip and let Trackman pick the most suitable out of those as you hit them.

But that's obvious, I guess.
I'll tell you one thing.
Tensei Blues look awesome with CP2 Wraps.

 

 

 

[GolfSpy_APH]

11 minutes ago, RetiredBoomer said:

When getting fitted, the most important thing is to let your fitter know what your favorite grip is.

Then, you assemble only the shafts that look good with your grip and let Trackman pick the most suitable out of those as you hit them.

But that's obvious, I guess.
I'll tell you one thing.
Tensei Blues look awesome with CP2 Wraps.

 

 

 

Is this said in jest?

[RetiredBoomer]

7 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Is this said in jest?

 

I would certainly the hell hope so. 

However, the shaft / grip combo that I mentioned does look really good!

 

Edited August 7 by RetiredBoomer

[GolfSpy_APH]

Just now, RetiredBoomer said:

 

I would certainly the hell hope so. 

Thank goodness... Sometimes it can be very hard to tell.via text. The /s is something us staff use to signify sarcasm. 

There are some wild thoughts and theories out there that I just can't understand, but ppl will stand by them.

[Shrek74]

I firmly believe the shaft is the most important part of a golf club, regardless of iron, hybrid, wood, or driver. Any head can ultimately work for us, if the shaft allows us to provide more centered contact based on how it works with our individual swing. This is why a fitting is so important.

I'm in the process of transitioning from DG120 S300 shafts that I've played for a while (DG S300's for decades before that) into graphite. Everyone said I should go to Steelfiber coming from DG shafts due to similar characteristics. In a fitting a few months ago, we tried them. Nope. Didn't work at all. They actually didn't have enough graphite options for me to try to fit my swing, which was more than a little disheartening.

At a demo day around the same time, I tried Recoil 95's and really liked how they felt. Another fitting with a different fitter who had them did show they worked for me. So that's what I'm playing in my JPX923 HMP's now. So much lighter than my old irons were, both static weight and swing weight. So different.

But all that said to just prove how important the shaft is and a fitting is. At least proven to myself.

[Golf2Much]

Several years ago, I had a whole bag fitting at Club Champion.  It was part of a promotion and was prepared to hear about all the shafts and services that I needed to improve my game.  We started with my driver which was a Ping G400 SFT with a $90 Korean Matrix prototype shaft I picked up on eBay.  We hit some base line numbers with my gamer and they were pretty good.  I don't hit the ball far, but my smash factor was about 1.5 (very efficient) and I outdrove the calculated Trackman distance.  The fitter was excited to put me into a series of $400 to $600 custom shafts to see if he could get a sale.   Each upgrade delivered no significant improvement in length or dispersion.  After trying his suggested shafts, his response is what many people facing a fitting would be glad to hear:  "I got nothing for you!"

 

[RetiredBoomer]

7 minutes ago, Shrek74 said:

I firmly believe the shaft is the most important part of a golf club, regardless of iron, hybrid, wood, or driver. Any head can ultimately work for us, if the shaft allows us to provide more centered contact based on how it works with our individual swing. This is why a fitting is so important.

I'm in the process of transitioning from DG120 S300 shafts that I've played for a while (DG S300's for decades before that) into graphite. Everyone said I should go to Steelfiber coming from DG shafts due to similar characteristics. In a fitting a few months ago, we tried them. Nope. Didn't work at all. They actually didn't have enough graphite options for me to try to fit my swing, which was more than a little disheartening.

At a demo day around the same time, I tried Recoil 95's and really liked how they felt. Another fitting with a different fitter who had them did show they worked for me. So that's what I'm playing in my JPX923 HMP's now. So much lighter than my old irons were, both static weight and swing weight. So different.

But all that said to just prove how important the shaft is and a fitting is. At least proven to myself.

Without in any way diminishing the importance of the shaft, it's the club head that makes a club look inviting, indifferent, or intimidating to me.  A fitter can spend a week with me, but he/she is not going to get me to hit a clubhead that doesn't look good to me.

I have also have Recoil 95s in my irons and wedges, and they're great, but they went into the clubheads that I wanted, not the other way around.  I also had one in my driving iron, but while it was accurate, dispersion wise, I hit really ugly line drives with it at that low loft.  I went for a higher launching shaft, but dispersion isn't as tight and I'm not sure that I did the right thing.  I may go back and just call it an expensive mistake.

I wasn't fit for the driving iron, by the way. 
I just followed the formula for the irons, std. loft and length, 1º flat,
same shaft at first and maybe same shaft once again. We'll see soon.

[Donn lost in San Diego]

4 hours ago, Jakesy35 said:

Maybe someone who’s had more experience with fitting in general can chime in, but it seems like the amount of data collected during a fitting session wouldn’t really be a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions from. Like if you hit 5 different shafts, how many swings would you need to ensure that there’s enough data to determine which one fits you best? If you’re only hitting 20-30 balls with each shaft, that doesn’t feel like enough for the trends to stabilize enough to make a determination.  I’m asking because in sports like baseball for example, many rate stats don’t stabilize until 200+ plate appearances so the data isn’t as informative under that threshold. 

I am far from a great golfer, but I think as few as 5 well hit balls, up to 10, per shaft, on a monitor, can discern better shaft for me.  Baseball analogy not applicable.

[Golfspy_CG2]

5 hours ago, Jakesy35 said:

Maybe someone who’s had more experience with fitting in general can chime in, but it seems like the amount of data collected during a fitting session wouldn’t really be a sufficient sample size to draw conclusions from. Like if you hit 5 different shafts, how many swings would you need to ensure that there’s enough data to determine which one fits you best? If you’re only hitting 20-30 balls with each shaft, that doesn’t feel like enough for the trends to stabilize enough to make a determination.  I’m asking because in sports like baseball for example, many rate stats don’t stabilize until 200+ plate appearances so the data isn’t as informative under that threshold. 

In addition to the good answer below from jaskanski.  i will add, i think its really good for your game if you can find a good fitter and use him/her for all your fittings.   He will get to know your tendencies, capabilities etc.  

My fitter will know within 3 shots if a shaft or head is right for me or not.   

5 hours ago, jaskanski said:

This is a valid point, but after seeing 20 shots any decent fitter can probably see if any shaft at all is going to make any difference - ie the golfers swing is the main problem rather than the equipment.

You can collate some baseline stats to state - 'this is what you're doing with your current set up' - and then you can advise 'if you change to this and adjust this, you might improve this'. Usually this is a simple change to grip, ball position and stance, at which point it ceases to be a fitting session and becomes more of a golf lesson.

 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

7 hours ago, Overspark07 said:

This I love! I’ve got a bunch of questions that I’d love to collect answers for:

1. Fitters are observing the data and making suggestions based on some heuristics. What are those heuristics? What is being optimized? How could I do some self diagnosing or at least be informed enough to understand what a fitter is trying to sell me?
2. How can we compare across manufacturers? Everyone seems to use low, mid, high for launch, spin and kick point. How do those translate one brand to another?
3. What does one get in a premium shaft? How do you evaluate value options for similar characteristics? At what skill/handicap does this really matter? Does it matter more in certain clubs?
4. How can we evaluate historical shafts against current offerings? Especially since the heads are also changing. As @Donn lost in San Diego indicated above, would it even make sense to put a new head on a shaft you love or does that completely change the dynamic?

Yes, good question.  Most heads these days weigh within a gram or 2 of their base or normal, that is most 3 woods are 210.  That should not change how the shaft flexes, but the weight distribution inside the head is what makes the ball flight different.