Sliding hips

[revkev]

I've been struggling with my game for about three months now. Originally I attributed this to the equipment change but something surfaced when I had my TMag fitting namely that my alignment was off. That was the end of October. I've been hitting the ball better since then but still not quite right.

 

Yesterday I believe I found the issue. I had a playing partner video a couple of my swings and I found that I'm sliding my hips laterally as I swing. I'm pretty much a one planner who swings around his left leg so this lateral hip movement is causing all kinds of blocks, weak right shots and chunks, even an occasional top off the tee.

 

Any thoughts on drills to do to get out of the habit - identifying it and stopping it are entirely different matters.

 

Thanks

[RoverRick]

I seriously doubt that I am a one planer, more like an 87 planer. But I focus on a hip "turn" going back and a hip "slide" to start the swing. Of course the hips turn going forward but after the slide.

 

I was just in the back yard trying to set up my Hank Haney Monster Golf Net but sadly it was not designed to be installed with a 20 mph wind so I gave up and will try again later. I was breathing like Darth Vader so I decided to retreat back into the house.

 

Sunday, on the last 6 holes or so in a weakened condition because the flu I stumbled upon a swing that was very powerful but I feel like I need to practice it more before I can accurately describe it. It was basically the four magic moves of golf but because I had no energy my arms literally were just along for the ride and I was creaming the ball long and straight. Effortless. It was all I could do to walk from the cart to the ball and boom a perfect shot. I was 1 under on the last 6 after I threatened to quit because of the way I was feeling. My opponent was giving me heck. Every time I hit the ball he would say give me some of that flu. He could first not believe I was going for the island green on 18 from 165 and second could not believe I hit it on the green to 30 feet. Missed the putt by less than an inch.

[Blade]

You have a lot more experience than me. But I'll tell you something that I figured out for myself. For a long time I had too much movement in my hips. Not sliding too much now, but turning too much. I learned early on to brace into my right leg in the back swing and not get my weight to the outside of that foot to keep from swaying. The feeling I used to ingrain that was pretend I had a steel rod extending down my shin into the ground. I could pivot my knee around it, but not move it laterally in the back swing.

 

As for getting out of the habit of too much hip turn. Some guys teach that you should turn them almost as much as the shoulders. Shawn Clements is one. Jack Nicklaus is another who says not to restrict the hip turn. Can't argue with them. But for me, if I turn my hips too much, I not only lose power, but I lose consistent contact. I used to turn my hips and torso in my take away and not get enough shoulder turn beyond my hips. I started trying to initially keep my hips still while taking the club away with my shoulders instead. I feel like I push my left arm back with my shoulder, my hands barely rotate at all by the time the club is parallel to the ground and target line. The rest of the way up is when the club hinges and my hips turn a bit. I think they turn 40-45* at the top if I stop and check. But compared to what I used to do, it feels like they're barely moving. Rick is right about the arms along for the ride. I keep my elbows probably the same distance apart through the swing until the finish. My right elbow drops in front of my hip and my arm is straightening through the ball. There's some power there, but just enough to keep in sync with the turn for me. From the top, when I'm practicing, I think about using my body to swing my left arm across the same path it went back on. That keeps my shoulders from unwinding too soon and keeps me from having compensations to get the club on the ball. It swings through the ball without thinking about it. In fact, I'm not even looking at the ball when it gets hit. My head has already started turning toward the target.

 

Anyway, that's my perspective coming from a relatively new player. It may not be anything you don't already do.

[revkev]

If I were to follow Rick's methode I'd quit - it's a classic example of a one plane guy vs. a two plane guy - stuff that works for two planers is death for a one planer.

 

My problem isn't with my hip turn its that I'm sliding in such a way that I'm stuck inside the ball, all that can happen from there is a weak block, chunk or some other type of thing. While I'm sure I load my right side like anyone else that's not what I "feel" in my swing - When my swing is right everything "feels" as if it works around my left leg and that it is controling the swing and yes when things are going properly my weight stays on the inside of both of my feet until I've hit the ball.

[RoverRick]

I have tried it all as recently as two weeks ago, but best advice I can give you is .... wait for it ..... Hit the ball. Think about where it goes, not how to swing. Just relax and hit the freaking ball, You know how.

[Wannabegolfer67]

If I were to follow Rick's methode I'd quit - it's a classic example of a one plane guy vs. a two plane guy - stuff that works for two planers is death for a one planer.

 

My problem isn't with my hip turn its that I'm sliding in such a way that I'm stuck inside the ball, all that can happen from there is a weak block, chunk or some other type of thing. While I'm sure I load my right side like anyone else that's not what I "feel" in my swing - When my swing is right everything "feels" as if it works around my left leg and that it is controling the swing and yes when things are going properly my weight stays on the inside of both of my feet until I've hit the ball.

Rev, it sounds like you and I have a similar swing (though I am sure yours is much more "polished")

I played today and couldn't seem to strike the ball cleanly no matter what I did and then on the 13th hole I realized the hip movement I had going on, focused on minimizing the hip motion and making sure I was rotating off of my left leg then all of a sudden I started striking the ball cleanly. This is something that just creeps into my swing from time to time but usually as soon as I recognize that I am doing it, I adjust for it and don't see it again for a while. I know that you are a much better golfer than I so it is encouraging to me to see that you low handicap guys have some of the same issues. Hope you can get it worked out quickly.

[Blade]

I have tried it all as recently as two weeks ago, but best advice I can give you is .... wait for it ..... Hit the ball. Think about where it goes, not how to swing. Just relax and hit the freaking ball, You know how.

Boy do I agree with "think about where you want it to go". I always say, for me anyway, the worst thing I can do is think about hitting the ball. That makes it the target and your body moves to hit it instead of swing to the real target. The second worst thing, for me when I'm playing, is to think about the HOW's. How to swing, how to turn, etc. When you practice, you think about mechanical stuff and try different things and feels. But thinking about that for shots in a round is the worst, for me anyway. It's hard to keep yourself from going there mentally. That's golf though I guess.

[Blade]

You know how I feel about me givin swing "tips" or advice to someone. I don't do it cuz I'm not remotely qualified to do it or give it, especially never even having seen you swing. I will say that I agree 100% with Rick's comment regarding basically visualing it and just swing as you have for many years.

 

The only thing that I will offer is something that I do when I develop a "negative" move in my swing and that is to do slo-mo swings. And I mean really slo-mo swings, not 1/2 or 1/4 speed swings, at least initially, until I'm comfortable that I have either regained the "proper" move or integrated the proper move into my swing. And there is no ball in place whether it be slo-mo or full speed.

 

Then I will go to 1/4, 1/2 then 3/4 speed swings and then, and only if I'm totally comfortable that I have my swing together MENTALLY, visualized in my mind, do I put a ball down.

 

I devolped a "spin" move with my hips to initiate my downswing, instead of a left hip "bump" which I normally have, and it took about a week, in which I hit no balls for 5 days, only performing my slo-mo swings through 3/4 speed before I felt comfortable swinging flat out and hittin a ball.

 

For me, visualization & muscle memory is evrything and I cannot create satisfactory muscle memory swinging 1/2 to full speed either without and especially with a ball.

 

I don't know if this is of any help, however there's no doubt in my mind that you'll figure it out.

 

You're a player.

 

This is what players do

 

My Best,

Richard

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever

Good advice Richard. I'm learning that just when it seems like I own my swing and it just works, the next day something's not working. I'm getting good at diagnosing it. But it's amazing how some little thing you start or stop doing throws everything off. For someone else it's probably an entirely different issue.

[JBones]

I have the same problem occasionally, Rev. A tip from Jason Dufner is what works for me; keep your back foot on the ground for as long as possible throughout the swing and keep your front foot flat on the ground through the entire swing. If I do this, I don't slide my hips; when I do slide my hips, I'm up on my back toe very early and my weight is on the outside of my front foot, so this tip just made sense.

[Tyk]

I tend to slide as well. A good drill is to hit a few balls on your front foot only. Narrow your stance and drop your back foot back by flexing your knee and use your toes on your back foot to stabilize yourself only, this will reinforce the feel of turning, not sliding your hips (you cant slide like this!) You'll be surprised how well you can hit the ball this way.

 

IMO a slide is worsened by hanging back in the swing, that is where you start to spin out of it and use your hips improperly to try to get the clubhead square and through. Once your weight is fully transferred, you can't slide anymore so they key is to get the feel of your weight being transferred all the way or almost all the way to your front leg by impact, once your weight is there, you have to rotate your hips through.

 

Another drill I do that deals more with weight transfer feeling than slide (although the two are related mechanically) is to hit some balls while actually picking my front heel up off the ground at the top, initiate the down swing by stomping that heel back to the ground, like you're trying to crush something under your heel. The idea is this gets your weight transferring early instead of hanging out on your back foot too long.

 

So the first drill is kind of "how does it feel once I'm where i'm trying to be, with my weight transferred and my hips turning", the second drill is more of a "how does it feel to get to that point from the top".

 

Take it for what it's worth of course! Good luck!

[The Dansome]

I have the same problem occasionally, Rev. A tip from Jason Dufner is what works for me; keep your back foot on the ground for as long as possible throughout the swing and keep your front foot flat on the ground through the entire swing. If I do this, I don't slide my hips; when I do slide my hips, I'm up on my back toe very early and my weight is on the outside of my front foot, so this tip just made sense.

 

I gotta try this. The turn is tough for me as I tend to get my left knee too involved early and past knee surgeries put a lotta strain on my left side.

[Firstkart]

There is a great article on "Quiet Golf" on the KRANK web site.

 

AJ

[revkev]

Thanks for all the input guys - actually a fellow but quiet MGSer, TomF, sent me a link from Tom Hardy (the one plane guru) that answered a similar question to the one I was asking. The guys question was way, way too complex for me to wrap my mind around but there was something in it about shoulders that caused a lightbulb to go on.

 

I know that I've been having a set up issue that I assumed was due to issues with my eyesight - time for new glasses. Turns out that it was very likely due to the fact that I've dropped my right shoulder too much - with my swing type the shoulders need to stay fairly level at address particularly with my irons. That simple change lead to a very promising range session yesterday - I'd love to say I hit every shot perfect, I didn't, but I hit lots of them very, very well and most importantly they had my ball flight and not that of some other guy that I haven't recognized for the past three months even when I've been able to muster up a few descent scores.

 

Level out the shoulders and suddenly its fairly easy to keep the weight on the inside of my left foot which then allows my right side to fire through rather than spin through the ball -

Moved the ball forward with the driver and was launching it beautifully high and long with a slight draw - so high that if that keeps up I may have to turn my driver down a notch.

 

Now it's time to get cracking on Christian's program

[RoverRick]

Thanks for all the input guys - actually a fellow but quiet MGSer, TomF, sent me a link from Tom Hardy (the one plane guru) that answered a similar question to the one I was asking. The guys question was way, way too complex for me to wrap my mind around but there was something in it about shoulders that caused a lightbulb to go on.

 

I know that I've been having a set up issue that I assumed was due to issues with my eyesight - time for new glasses. Turns out that it was very likely due to the fact that I've dropped my right shoulder too much - with my swing type the shoulders need to stay fairly level at address particularly with my irons. That simple change lead to a very promising range session yesterday - I'd love to say I hit every shot perfect, I didn't, but I hit lots of them very, very well and most importantly they had my ball flight and not that of some other guy that I haven't recognized for the past three months even when I've been able to muster up a few descent scores.

 

Level out the shoulders and suddenly its fairly easy to keep the weight on the inside of my left foot which then allows my right side to fire through rather than spin through the ball -

Moved the ball forward with the driver and was launching it beautifully high and long with a slight draw - so high that if that keeps up I may have to turn my driver down a notch.

 

Now it's time to get cracking on Christian's program

 

RevKev,

 

You were 100% correct that I did not know what I was talking about. I have now read Jim Hardy's book, The Plane Truth for Golfers. I had been working on simplifying my swing but did not know that I was a two planer. But the hip slide I was doing was causing problems with my back and the fact that I would get too aggressive with my shoulders was giving me fits. I downloaded this book Sunday, and implemented it into my swing yesterday. I struggled on the first couple of holes, the range was closed but eventually got it under control.

 

Today, I went out early and played 27 holes. Before each shot, with the club held shoulder high, I turned all the way back and then all the way through a couple of times. This engrained the shoulder and hip turn. What I like about this swing is that it is shoulder driven. I then would take a couple of practice swings to ensure the same feel. I absolutely spanked the ball. I normally make pretty good contact most of the time. But this was a simple swing that is easily replicated. I ended up 2 over par on 27 holes. I struggled at first today with the irons but got it worked out and shot a 39, 34. 37.

 

Hopefully, this will be the case tomorrow also because I am meeting HULK in Fort Worth. I now have a much better swing that I had when you and I played because the one plane swing does not use the same hip slide and back issues as the two plane swing.

[finalist]

I tell you what. The old advice to bump my hips forward before I begin my down swing was one of the biggest wreckers of my swing until I met Bruce Rearick.

 

I'm very much a one plane swinger that use to have a lot of lateral bump towards the target. I never knew any better. I'd bump then try to turn. Once he said to stop bumping the quality of my strikes for all clubs jumped up. No body had ever said that I didn't have to bump forward! It was ground breaking for me. Once the bump was gone I could turn so much faster and repeat my swing so much better.

 

As far as tips to stop bumping... I don't have any. I just stopped bumping at the top and concentrated on turning around a more center point while keeping my spine tilted away from the target.

 

Here's my own full swing thoughts for longer clubs.

 

 

1. Balanced feet.
   
2. Stand tall, head behind ball slightly (I come from a swing that use to have too much knee bend and hips bending over) Staying tall is relaxing and easier to turn around.
   
3. Left arm starts the swing and moves across my chest. (this is also counter to what I always heard that I should move chest and arms together. I now only care about my arms which will eventually pull my shoulders at the top)
   
4. Down swing begins with the hips turing hard. then arms are pulled.
   
5. Release club fast as sequence allows.
   

 

 

I guess that's a Jim Hardy type one plane swing. I have also learned the harder I turn my lower body the less the ball goes left - draws and pulls.

[RoverRick]

I tell you what. The old advice to bump my hips forward before I begin my down swing was one of the biggest wreckers of my swing until I met Bruce Rearick.

 

 

 

Are you saying that Bruce Rearick wrecked your swing more than this bad advice?

[RoverRick]

I watched Golf Channel last night, yeah I know you are all shocked, but last night Martin Hall was advocating the hip bump and had Holly doing the hip bump, yeah, I said it, ( I started to say lateral hip slide but wanted you all to have the mental image.) The interesting thing is he was talking about this two plane swing like he had just come down from the mount and gotten it from a burning bush, but then a few minutes later he hit some ball, and was using a one plane swing. I yelled at him but he continued to do it. My dogs did look at me strangely.

[Matt Saternus]

Are you saying that Bruce Rearick wrecked your swing more than this bad advice?

 

No, Bruce fixed his swing.

 

*I don't like to speak for anybody, but I know what he meant and just want to clear the confusion.

[finalist]

Are you saying that Bruce Rearick wrecked your swing more than this bad advice?

 

 

OHHH NO!! I worded that so badly. Bruce is THE MAN! I can't recommend him enough and seeing his participation in some of MGS articles validates the author's findings for me.

 

He's a genius. A truly pure scientists with no bias.

 

 

After he saw my driver swing and told me to stop sliding forward on the down swing (never would have thought of that fix on my own) my full swing improved a great deal. A lot less timing involved.

[RoverRick]

OHHH NO!! I worded that so badly. Bruce is THE MAN! I can't recommend him enough and seeing his participation in some of MGS articles validates the author's findings for me.

 

He's a genius. A truly pure scientists with no bias.

 

 

After he saw my driver swing and told me to stop sliding forward on the down swing (never would have thought of that fix on my own) my full swing improved a great deal. A lot less timing involved.

 

I owe you an apology, I knew what you meant but was being a smart ass. I should not have posted that. While you may have worded it better, it was obvious what you meant.

[JMiller]

Lets take a step back and think about the words "hip slide", based on the OP it is "lateral movement without hip rotation". It really comes down to what style of swing you have to what advice I can give you to help correct it. Here is an article on identifying your swing by of course my favorite reference lately Bruce >> http://www.bargolfinstruction.blogspot.com/2012/01/guide-to-understanding-your-golf-swing.html

 

The important thing to note is the statement in bold in his article

The sequence of motion that gets you back to the ball for impact is dictated by the position of the arm at the top of the swing. The sequences are different, not the same and

NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

 

My advice is that you learn the style of swing you are then match a down swing sequence to it. This is a very simplistic version of down swing sequence:

~ two-plane swing needs lots of lateral hip slide to start the down swing with a little rotation at the end of the down swing.

>> Minus the over hip rotation / left foot off the ground think Jack Nicklaus here for two-plane

>> Here is a video of Mr. Nicklaus in 1963 (note the massive amount of slide) ~ youtube.com/watch?v=ar0qLYWdD28

 

~ Hybrid swing needs a little lateral slide and then rotation, call it 50-50 if you want but you need to match it to your back swing more exactly.

>> Think of Tiger Woods in 1999 / 2000 the years of the "perfect swing" or whatever when he dominated like crazy.

>> Found a video of him in 2000 (note a small lateral shift in the hips with weight transfer THEN rotation) ~ youtube.com/watch?v=ajVrXoPmdOk

 

~ One-plane swing needs mostly hip rotation with very little lateral slide in the down swing.

>> Johnathan Byrd or Ben Hogan are examples here

>> J Byrd video (note the rotation of the hips, watch the black belt) ~ youtube.com/watch?v=7cMQjRq6Awc

[JMiller]

I tell you what. The old advice to bump my hips forward before I begin my down swing was one of the biggest wreckers of my swing until I met Bruce Rearick.

 

I'm not sure if this was edited later but it reads fine to me personally i noticed the word UNTIL. "The old advice to bump my hips forward before I begin my down swing was one of the biggest wreckers of my swing" UNTIL "I met Bruce Rearick".

 

Yes he has helped my swing a lot and get me more where I want to go. Sometimes you take steps back before taking them forward.

[Tyk]

A good way to feel the turn with no slide is to take your stance with no club, palms parallel about 6 inches apart, and have someone hold their hand right where the impact zone of your hands would be coming through (in my case, I have my daughter hold a kick target!). Now try to hit the target with some power with the back of your left (leading) hand as if you are executing a clubless golf swing. No one ever slides when they do this (they also never overswing at the top)! Put a club in our hands and we're all over the place, but like this, never! Once you get the feel for it you really don't even need a target to hit to feel it. Something about taking the club out of your hands lets you focus on what your body is doing and your body knows how to best hit something there at hip level. The club is just an extension of the hands and the target moves to the ground.

 

What I like best about this drill is that it really lets you feel how the hips transition through the swing, especially how the left (leading) hip works, you'll feel your outside hip muscles generate pulling power through the impact zone and your oblique muscles take over in the follow through. You'll feel how that leading hip rises and the leading leg extends a bit as your weight transfers to it and how the right sequence of that generates power. Without a club, I don't think it can be done improperly!

[revkev]

Very interesting everyone and I truly appreciate JMiller's point - I've known for quite some time - well before the two plane/one plane stuff was en vogue that there were two different approaches to swinging the club and that if I read and tried to implement the wrong set of thoughts/advice/swing sequencing for my type of swing I was toast! I learned it the hard way - by screwing up and becoming a basket case. Jimmy Ballard bailed me out so that gives you an idea of how long ago this happened - early to mid 80's. I've been a devout one planer ever since. However there are many great golfers who were two planers including Mr. Nicklaus - I'm sure I started as a two planner because I was weaned on Golf My Way - once I approached 30 my back wouldn't allow me to swing like that any more though.

 

In general but not always it seems to me that two planers are longer while one planers are more consistent - of course that rule is general and doesn't always hold. I started this out by saying that I'm a one planer because advice from a two planer would not help me out of this mess. I still can't believe it was something as simple as my set up or more accurately I can't believe I didn't start with set up first because it's always something that simple. I played with a good friend twice the beginning of last week and he couldn't believe the difference from me then as oppossed to early December - I could barely hit the ball in early December when he was here altough I shot some respectable scores - 79,77 because my short game saved me where as this time I didn't putt all that well and went 75,75 - as he said I hardly missed a shot (relatively speaking). I also hit several gigantic drives - by my standards.

 

Thanks guys and good luck with the one plane move RR - I think your back will love you for it.

[JMiller]

I have been sitting here thinking of drills that were simple and easy to use or even a FEEL you can take to the course that's not complex.

 

NOTE: These are only ideas for a ONE-PLANE swing. DO NOT ATTEMPT if you are a hybrid or two-plane swinger.

1) trialling pushed straight out

>> could lead to hip spinning when lead leg doesn't get posted up properly.

>> to far of open hips lead to the shoulders being pulled open with the hips rotating = pulled shot

>> push style downswing

 

2) lead hip gets pulled straight backwards

>> feel like someone tugged your lead hip belt buckle straight backwards towards your lead butt check at address position.

>> this probably work better as it shift weight without you thinking about it and also forces you to post the left leg stopping hip rotation.

>> pull style downswing

 

The mistake might be as simple as forcing your weight from trialling leg (right for a RH) to forward leg (left leg for a RH) to start the downswing. This almost always causes some degree of lateral shift. In a one-plane swing it is all rotation in the backswing correct, pretty much no lift with the arms or very little, the lead arm is about on the same plane as the shoulders at the top. You have to rotate to uncoil that position, a lateral slide has nasty results like you said in the OP.

 

Lateral slide for a two-plane & hybrid swing counters the lift motion of the arms in the backswing. To get the club back down where it should be into impact hands / arms need to drop down in front of you before you rotate.

 

So you could get more lift with the arms and keep the lateral shift or simply work on rotation in the down swing and keep the backswing as is.

 

 

I am by no means a teaching professional, you can always and SHOULD take advice to your instructor you work with. Someone that doesn't try to mold you into a swing method will know what sequence you need better then we would and what really is the true issue.

 

EDIT: I was typing this as you probably wrote your post but yea set up can change a lot of things...

[finalist]

One thing that helped me reduce the hip slide through impact is the way I begin my swing's sequence at address. In the past I would start with lots of arm speed going back with lots of shoulder turn. Bruce pointed out that my swing has a lot of over swing at the top. My left arm breaks down etc. A lot of that is due to me swinging too fast to the top and with too much shoulder turn at the start of my swing it's hard not to break down at the top. His suggestion was to make my very first move off the ball with my left arm crossing my chest THEN use some shoulder turn to complete the backswing - This slowed down my backswing action and kept it from looking like a mini John Daly. Long story short the "new" first move made my swing much more balanced, slower backswing, and properly sequenced it for a one planer. This all allowed me to have a better timing to NOT hip slide forward as my first move to the ball from the top. Very quickly people noticed my swing looked parallel at the top rather than past parallel. It was a really cool feeling to finally get that easy going parallel swing look so quickly after spending many seasons trying to do it on my own with no success. The fix was fairly simple, but not obvious on my own. It's amazing how golf can be so simple, or so hard depending on sequencing.