New Irons = Wedge Gapping Issues

[VincentB]

I currently game MP53s, Callaway X2Hot Driver, 3 wood and 3 hybrid. I took some time off from the game (5+ years), but I've been playing at least 3 times a month for the last 8 months.  I'm rewarding my dedication with some new equipment, starting with irons.  The question I have is how are you gapping your wedges.  The sets I'm looking at have a 44* pitching wedge.  That's pretty damn strong.  My current setup is a 46* pitching wedge with a 50* gap wedge and a 54* sand wedge.  I have a bit of a distance gap between my gap wedge and my pitching wedge, but it rarely causes me any issues on the course.  However, with a 44* pitching wedge, would I need to add three more wedges to the setup(48, 52, 56)?  My distance with a pitching wedge is approximately 140 yards (+/- 5 yards).  I'm worried that a 44*pitching wedge will result in full shots closer to 150 yards.  That would leave a 30 yard gap with my current wedge setup, but I'd have to remove a club to make room for an additional wedge.  I can't be the only one dealing with this.  How are you guys gapping your wedges?

[Cullen]

You could get the lofts weakened on the shorter irons in the new set. Maybe 2 degrees weaker in PW and 9 iron and maybe 1 weaker in 8 and 7. Or however you really see fit.

[GolfSpy_APH]

9 hours ago, VincentB said:

I currently game MP53s, Callaway X2Hot Driver, 3 wood and 3 hybrid. I took some time off from the game (5+ years), but I've been playing at least 3 times a month for the last 8 months.  I'm rewarding my dedication with some new equipment, starting with irons.  The question I have is how are you gapping your wedges.  The sets I'm looking at have a 44* pitching wedge.  That's pretty damn strong.  My current setup is a 46* pitching wedge with a 50* gap wedge and a 54* sand wedge.  I have a bit of a distance gap between my gap wedge and my pitching wedge, but it rarely causes me any issues on the course.  However, with a 44* pitching wedge, would I need to add three more wedges to the setup(48, 52, 56)?  My distance with a pitching wedge is approximately 140 yards (+/- 5 yards).  I'm worried that a 44*pitching wedge will result in full shots closer to 150 yards.  That would leave a 30 yard gap with my current wedge setup, but I'd have to remove a club to make room for an additional wedge.  I can't be the only one dealing with this.  How are you guys gapping your wedges?

Best think I could suggest is do a gapping session when you get your new irons and then sort out the rest. It may be that you don't really need one of the top end clubs and can add a wedge, or you do something like @Golfspy_Lukes and are able to find a slightly larger gapped 3 wedge setup that gives you a lot of options and the versatility that you need. 

My set is 4 degree increments 58-54-50-46, but if I had a 44 I would either see if that could be bent a degree weak to 45 and then go 50 or do a 44 - 48 - 52 - 56 setup. Now that being said I do not like 60s or anything more than 58 degree wedge and used only a 56 for a long time so that setup doesn't scare me and think I have the creativity to make it work. 

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

So my set PW is 45. I added a 48*, 52* and 60*. For me the 48 and 52 are very versatile and am able to get a lot of different shots out of them. My 60 is specialty.

[Placasse61]

My PW is 44, UW 49, 54 and 60* which is now in storage and have not used for 1.5 years (time to sell)

[VincentB]

15 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Best think I could suggest is do a gapping session when you get your new irons and then sort out the rest. It may be that you don't really need one of the top end clubs and can add a wedge, or you do something like @Golfspy_Lukes and are able to find a slightly larger gapped 3 wedge setup that gives you a lot of options and the versatility that you need. 

My set is 4 degree increments 58-54-50-46, but if I had a 44 I would either see if that could be bent a degree weak to 45 and then go 50 or do a 44 - 48 - 52 - 56 setup. Now that being said I do not like 60s or anything more than 58 degree wedge and used only a 56 for a long time so that setup doesn't scare me and think I have the creativity to make it work. 

I think I like the 45, 50, 55 option.  Thanks for that.  It's a simple solution but sometimes you just need someone to point out the obvious.  I haven't checked the 5 iron.  If it is as strong as my current 4 iron, I guess I could drop the 4 iron and go to 4 wedges.  Some golf courses in the San Antonio area are getting crazy with the par 3s from the tips (195 - 220 yards).  The four iron plays a big role on these holes.

[VincentB]

14 hours ago, Lacassem said:

So my set PW is 45. I added a 48*, 52* and 60*. For me the 48 and 52 are very versatile and am able to get a lot of different shots out of them. My 60 is specialty.

Which do you use out of the sand around the greens?  I have a 54* wedge as my sand wedge and I need to open that up quite a bit.  52* seems like quite a challenge.

[VincentB]

Did you order the 49 or did you bend a 48/50?

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

1 hour ago, VincentB said:

Which do you use out of the sand around the greens?  I have a 54* wedge as my sand wedge and I need to open that up quite a bit.  52* seems like quite a challenge.

The 60* but I’ve used the 52 for shallow bunkers green side.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Great discussion so far here. Nice to see. 

It does make me want to go back and do another gapping session to see where everything is at going into 2023 and maybe look at tweaking the wedge setup a bit. Maybe there is a more efficient setup even though I have grown to really like my 46, 50, 54, 58. 

[Billy-Bo-Jim-Bob]

4-5 degree increments is my answer. For most players with avg to above avg speed, is about 2-3 yards per degree.

[Tim W]

Do you have a good club fitter in your area?
I would recommend purchasing the irons that are close to your requirements.
After hitting the clubs for a few times in play and outside on the practice range to judge your full club distance,
If needed, I would get your fitter to do an outside session and bend the wedges to your desirable distances.

I have not found very many sets that fit exactly the way you want.
I would use the same fitter to check your loft and lies twice per year.
Most irons will change through practice and play.

[cnosil]

3 hours ago, Billy-Bo-Jim-Bob said:

4-5 degree increments is my answer. For most players with avg to above avg speed, is about 2-3 yards per degree.

Good general advice but based on my experience, you need to be careful when switching from set wedges to specialty wedges.   Specialty wedges tend to launch higher and spin more and reduce carry distance.  

[GolfSpy AFG]

1 hour ago, cnosil said:

Good general advice but based on my experience, you need to be careful when switching from set wedges to specialty wedges.   Specialty wedges tend to launch higher and spin more and reduce carry distance.  

@cnosilis dead on here:  get a fitting and pay less attention to the stamped lofts and more to how far you actually hit them, and how you'll use them.  I have a set gap wedge that's 51 degrees for instance, because aside from the occasional knockdown it's very much a full swing club.  Then I have a 54 bent to 55, and a 60 bent to 59.

[Beakbryce]

This may take some work. Not sure what your makeup is now but am assuming from what you wrote that it is driver, 3 wood, 3 hybrid, the 2 wedges, putter, which leaves 8 irons. I think you need to base your gaps on what you eventually want the completed set to look like.

Start at the green. What yardage do you want your highest lofted full swing wedge to cover? Say a 58 or 60 that you hit 80-100 yards. Then gap back through your irons with a 4 to 5 degree spread. Do you choke up to hit shots that fall between yardages for each club or do you adjust your length or speed to take care of the gaps? Depending how good you feel about intermediate yardage between full swings with each club will guide you on whether you want 4 or 5 degree spread.

That is the low end. By the same token, on the long end, if the PW is stronger loft, the 4 and 5 iron will be stronger loft. For instance, the Apex 21 and the JPX921 forged 4 iron is 21 degrees. Maybe get rid of the 3 hybrid which should be close to the 4 iron. Or buy 5- PW, get rid of the 3 wood and 3 hybrid and get a strong 4 wood and 4 hybrid.  The clubs on the higher end is what you want to look at getting rid of to solidify the gaps between irons. 

If you have driver, 4 wood, 4 hybrid, and a putter, that leaves 10 clubs. Typical 4 hybrids these days are around 20 degrees so pretty much equal to your X2 3 hybrid at 19 degrees and much easier to hit. If you have a 58 or 60 as your highest lofted club, that leaves 38-40 degrees or around 4 degrees between irons. This would be a very tight setup and easy to use. 58,54,50,46,42,38,34,30,26,22. or 60,56,52,48,44,40,36,32,28,24

A lot of sets have their PW at 42, so you would need 4 wedges if you start with a 58. With the set that you are looking at with a 44 degree wedge and you start with a 60, you would need 4 wedges. Hopefully the other irons in that set are around 4 degree gapping.

In any case, the gaps you come up with have to be tighter on the shorter clubs than the longer ones as they generally are your scoring clubs. My suggestion is to be tight on the scoring end and then see what combo you want between the driver and the lowest numbered iron. This might be the 4 wood and 4 hybrid or a 3 and 5 wood. Even a 5 wood at 18 degrees would still leave around 40 degrees of difference between that and the 58 wedge. Those 10 clubs can be irons or hybrids depending on your skill with medium to long irons.

[Stuka44]

On 1/18/2023 at 5:09 PM, VincentB said:

I can't be the only one dealing with this.  How are you guys gapping your wedges?

I bought my new clubs specifically for the stronger loft.  Stronger lofts allowed me to eliminate 3H.  Now have D,3W, 2H, 4-AW, the stronger loft on the PW( filled in a gap)(43)(125), AW(48)(115) (which came with the set), then bought 52d for(100), and SW(56).   I'm not sure how if your hitting your PW even the 145 you could get by without 4 wedges.  

[Franc38]

On 1/18/2023 at 11:09 PM, VincentB said:

How are you guys gapping your wedges?

My general idea is 1) wedges are versatile and it's easier to take distance off, add distance on with them than with other clubs and 2) the loft is the commanding element for distance in a golf club (when hit more or less in the centre, with a correct delivery). So I do take a 4 or 5 degree separation between clubs at the bottom. In my case PW (47°), then 52° then 58° because I'm good at partial shots and getting high/low flights on these. If you're ending up with a 44° PW, then 48° 52° and 58° might be the optimal solution for you. Pushing the gaps a bit you'd get 50° then 56° if you really want to only have 2 specialised wedges (but I wouldn't recommend that, you'll lack a very open wedge for short bunker shots, flopper and the like and you'll end up with a very large distance gap where you'll have to "manufacture shots" with your PW (which, based on the loft you say it has, likely won't be very versatile and easy to "funk".

Obviously, trying some wedges of varying lofts will help you figure out what's the ideal scenario for your bag!

Edited January 21, 2023 by Franc38

[Siamese Moose]

My PW is 45°, my wedges are (were) 50, 54, 58. I had a 25 yard gap between PW (set matching cavity back) and GW (traditional MB). I worked with my fitter, and we bent the 50 and 54 until I had gaps I was comfortable with (about 12 yds PW to GW, then 10 GW to SW). That 50 is now a shade stronger than 48, and the 54 is a shade weaker than 52 (both were high bounce to begin with, and I'm actually pleased with the slightly lower bounce). I left the 58 alone as that's not for full shots. 

[JeffK]

My PW is 43 deg and my GW is 47 deg. I also have a 50, 54 and 60 Vokeys. This gives me around 10 meter gaping. I should probably get the 50 and 54 weakened by a deg but I'm not really good enough to appreciate the difference it would make to my short irons.

[VincentB]

On 1/20/2023 at 3:51 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Great discussion so far here. Nice to see. 

It does make me want to go back and do another gapping session to see where everything is at going into 2023 and maybe look at tweaking the wedge setup a bit. Maybe there is a more efficient setup even though I have grown to really like my 46, 50, 54, 58. 

I am a 12 handicap, but I hit the ball a long way off the tee.  I get left with plenty of 80 to 140 yard shots into the pin.  For me, that is pitching wedge through sand wedge.  That's a lot of ground to cover with three clubs.  I might be leaning towards adding that 4th wedge.

[VincentB]

On 1/20/2023 at 11:13 AM, cnosil said:

Good general advice but based on my experience, you need to be careful when switching from set wedges to specialty wedges.   Specialty wedges tend to launch higher and spin more and reduce carry distance.  

And this is where I think I struggle.  I prefer the look and feedback of better player's irons.  I can shoot the occasional 78 and I'm not a bad ball striker.  However, most irons in this category don't offer a wedge beyond the pitching wedge.  I think if I could get a gap wedge with my iron set, I can manipulate a sand wedge to take care of the rest.  

[cnosil]

Just now, VincentB said:

And this is where I think I struggle.  I prefer the look and feedback of better player's irons.  I can shoot the occasional 78 and I'm not a bad ball striker.  However, most irons in this category don't offer a wedge beyond the pitching wedge.  I think if I could get a gap wedge with my iron set, I can manipulate a sand wedge to take care of the rest.  

Typically players irons will be a closer match to specialty wedges.  You just need to get the right lofts or bend them to fit the gaps you need.   

[VincentB]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:07 PM, Getoffmylawn said:

@cnosilis dead on here:  get a fitting and pay less attention to the stamped lofts and more to how far you actually hit them, and how you'll use them.  I have a set gap wedge that's 51 degrees for instance, because aside from the occasional knockdown it's very much a full swing club.  Then I have a 54 bent to 55, and a 60 bent to 59.

I don't know why, but I both strongly believe you should ignore the lofts and have a difficult time doing so.  I carry a 3 hybrid that is only 1* different from my 4 iron, but I can hit that thing 30 yards further.  I easily ignore the loft and just play what I know.  I tried it with a sand wedge and I couldn't do it.  I carried a 56* sand wedge before switching to the 54*  When using both on the course, the 56* started flying 10 yards shorter than I was used to and felt like a lob wedge.  I had it in my mind that I could only hit my old yardages with my new 54* wedge.  I'm nuts, I know.

[VincentB]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:14 PM, Beakbryce said:

This may take some work. Not sure what your makeup is now but am assuming from what you wrote that it is driver, 3 wood, 3 hybrid, the 2 wedges, putter, which leaves 8 irons. I think you need to base your gaps on what you eventually want the completed set to look like.

Start at the green. What yardage do you want your highest lofted full swing wedge to cover? Say a 58 or 60 that you hit 80-100 yards. Then gap back through your irons with a 4 to 5 degree spread. Do you choke up to hit shots that fall between yardages for each club or do you adjust your length or speed to take care of the gaps? Depending how good you feel about intermediate yardage between full swings with each club will guide you on whether you want 4 or 5 degree spread.

That is the low end. By the same token, on the long end, if the PW is stronger loft, the 4 and 5 iron will be stronger loft. For instance, the Apex 21 and the JPX921 forged 4 iron is 21 degrees. Maybe get rid of the 3 hybrid which should be close to the 4 iron. Or buy 5- PW, get rid of the 3 wood and 3 hybrid and get a strong 4 wood and 4 hybrid.  The clubs on the higher end is what you want to look at getting rid of to solidify the gaps between irons. 

If you have driver, 4 wood, 4 hybrid, and a putter, that leaves 10 clubs. Typical 4 hybrids these days are around 20 degrees so pretty much equal to your X2 3 hybrid at 19 degrees and much easier to hit. If you have a 58 or 60 as your highest lofted club, that leaves 38-40 degrees or around 4 degrees between irons. This would be a very tight setup and easy to use. 58,54,50,46,42,38,34,30,26,22. or 60,56,52,48,44,40,36,32,28,24

A lot of sets have their PW at 42, so you would need 4 wedges if you start with a 58. With the set that you are looking at with a 44 degree wedge and you start with a 60, you would need 4 wedges. Hopefully the other irons in that set are around 4 degree gapping.

In any case, the gaps you come up with have to be tighter on the shorter clubs than the longer ones as they generally are your scoring clubs. My suggestion is to be tight on the scoring end and then see what combo you want between the driver and the lowest numbered iron. This might be the 4 wood and 4 hybrid or a 3 and 5 wood. Even a 5 wood at 18 degrees would still leave around 40 degrees of difference between that and the 58 wedge. Those 10 clubs can be irons or hybrids depending on your skill with medium to long irons.

Thanks for taking the time to respond with so much detail.  My game is "complicated."  Sometimes alcohol adds to the complication, but complicated none the less.  I'm a grip it and rip it kind of guy, former baseball player, with above average hand eye coordination.  I average about 285 off the tee.  I hit my 3 wood 260 yards.  My longest iron, however stops at about 205.  My three hybrid splits the difference.  I'm confident that with newer technology in the bag, the distances I'll gain on the irons will help close the gap between irons and woods, but it feels like the distance is shifting too much in one direction.  As my game is rounding into form, I'm definitely leaving myself yardages between 140 and 80 yards.  My SW can handle anything from 80 to 105.  My GW up to 115.  it's the 120 to 135 I'm missing.  While I'm shopping for new irons, I sure would like to address this issue.

[VincentB]

On 1/20/2023 at 1:19 PM, stuka44 said:

I bought my new clubs specifically for the stronger loft.  Stronger lofts allowed me to eliminate 3H.  Now have D,3W, 2H, 4-AW, the stronger loft on the PW( filled in a gap)(43)(125), AW(48)(115) (which came with the set), then bought 52d for(100), and SW(56).   I'm not sure how if your hitting your PW even the 145 you could get by without 4 wedges.  

I can comfortably hit my SW 105 yards or less.  My GW covers 115 yards.  I do struggle in the 120 to 140 range.  I can open up my SW, choke down, fly it low, etc.  I'm very comfortable with this club in my hand.  Not so much with the rest of my wedges.  I'm trying to get there with my PW, but I'm not quite there yet.  Hence, I'm trying to find a solution before pulling the trigger on new irons.

[VincentB]

15 hours ago, Siamese Moose said:

My PW is 45°, my wedges are (were) 50, 54, 58. I had a 25 yard gap between PW (set matching cavity back) and GW (traditional MB). I worked with my fitter, and we bent the 50 and 54 until I had gaps I was comfortable with (about 12 yds PW to GW, then 10 GW to SW). That 50 is now a shade stronger than 48, and the 54 is a shade weaker than 52 (both were high bounce to begin with, and I'm actually pleased with the slightly lower bounce). I left the 58 alone as that's not for full shots. 

Nice!  I really like this idea.  

[VincentB]

20 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Typically players irons will be a closer match to specialty wedges.  You just need to get the right lofts or bend them to fit the gaps you need.   

I'm looking at JPX 223 forged or MP225.  I'm don't mind adding in a little forgiveness. Do you think your statement still applies if I went this route?

[Franc38]

48 minutes ago, VincentB said:

I'm looking at JPX 223 forged or MP225.  I'm don't mind adding in a little forgiveness. Do you think your statement still applies if I went this route?

There's obviously more "visual difference" between these and Vokeys for ex, than between MP221 and specialized wedges, but that shouldn't be massively offensive.

 

However, I think the solution for you isn't in equipment but in more "focused practice". In my case I do PW from 147 to 133 yards (just shortening the grip for shorter distances), 52° from 130 to 40 yards or less, 58° inside 40 yards, when there little space for stopping the ball, and in bunkers. So essentially, 130 yards to nothing is 52° and that's "automatic". I've practised a lot with this wedge so I simply eyeball the distance when it's obvious I'm close enough (at 130-ish I do laser the pin to see if it's PW or 52°) and "boom". I usually land the ball 4 or 5 yards max from the target, distance-wise.

These wedges are made to be versatile, but if you don't feel like "funking" shots, playing the ball at different points in the stance, gripping short or long (or in between), having different length of backswing and different intensity, you can have bunched of different clubs. The problem then is you'll be lacking in the longer end of the bag, and, IMHO, if it's simple with the same wedge to do a 50 yards and a 100 yards shot, it's harder to do a 220 yards with your 4i and also do 190 yards with the same club, with any level of consistency.

49 minutes ago, VincentB said:

I can comfortably hit my SW 105 yards or less.  My GW covers 115 yards.  I do struggle in the 120 to 140 range.  I can open up my SW, choke down, fly it low, etc.  I'm very comfortable with this club in my hand.  Not so much with the rest of my wedges.  I'm trying to get there with my PW, but I'm not quite there yet.  Hence, I'm trying to find a solution before pulling the trigger on new irons.

You could go the route I say with a stronger GW replacing your current GW and then "funking" it. Or you need a GGW (gap-gap wedge) between the PW and your current GW, something that goes 130-ish on a standard swing. And maybe work and playing your PW short gripped, ball a bit further up in the stance for a "feathery short flight".

 

 

Edited January 22, 2023 by Franc38

[Beakbryce]

1 hour ago, VincentB said:

Thanks for taking the time to respond with so much detail.  My game is "complicated."  Sometimes alcohol adds to the complication, but complicated none the less.  I'm a grip it and rip it kind of guy, former baseball player, with above average hand eye coordination.  I average about 285 off the tee.  I hit my 3 wood 260 yards.  My longest iron, however stops at about 205.  My three hybrid splits the difference.  I'm confident that with newer technology in the bag, the distances I'll gain on the irons will help close the gap between irons and woods, but it feels like the distance is shifting too much in one direction.  As my game is rounding into form, I'm definitely leaving myself yardages between 140 and 80 yards.  My SW can handle anything from 80 to 105.  My GW up to 115.  it's the 120 to 135 I'm missing.  While I'm shopping for new irons, I sure would like to address this issue.

I get you. I think maybe not so much reliance on what the club is, ie PW or SW, or GW, but more on the actual degree of loft of each club. That gives you the best chance of finding clubs for every yardage. You indicated in another post you choke down on your SW to vary the yardage. By gapping with degree of loft and not what the club designation is, you can have a grip it and rip it yardage, and choke down for the yardage in between clubs. Please try to not think SW,GW,PW and more along the lines of needing a 54, 50, 46, 42 etc lofted set. if you can find a fitter that will set you up that way your yardages will smooth themselves out. If not, then look at specialty wedges, say something like Vokey wedges, that you can gap right down to the more traditional set of irons. Say the PW in the set you want to buy is at 44, you can buy a 48, 52, 56, which is what you were hinting at in your original post. BTW, what do you hit less than 80? I am guessing that there are a number of partial shots around the green that an additional wedge can help cover.

[cnosil]

59 minutes ago, VincentB said:

I'm looking at JPX 223 forged or MP225.  I'm don't mind adding in a little forgiveness. Do you think your statement still applies if I went this route?

Both of those sets have a set GW; next would be probably 53/54 and then 58/60.  Figure out how far you hit them and then fix the gapping.  58/60 could be your sand wedge.