Sandbagging by playing shorter tees?

[cnosil]

24 minutes ago, richk9holes said:

These sandbaggers are expert level to score exactly what they're hypothetically trying to score from various tees..I think a lot of the push back is coming from this premise of "person who shoots 85 from both white and blue"

 

 

9 minutes ago, Javs said:

I understand your point, but to me there is a flaw. First, I doubt anyone shoots the same score no matter the tees or slope. Second the system is based on score against slope and rating to create the index. I get the point, I just have not witnessed it and find it hard to believe. 

You are both reading too much into my using the same score; that is simply because it is easier to discuss.  I personally score roughly the same on most courses if I play one tee up or one tee back.

I haven’t witnessed it either and find it hard to believe but I am sure it could happen in limited cases 

[Javs]

56 minutes ago, DaSquire said:

No, not calculating anything incorrectly. If you normally play from the blue and then you start playing from the white tees and score very similar or even just a little lower, your handicap index may go up if the slope and rating are not exactly correct. See the specific breakdown I did above that proves this for a course here (as an example seems this has worked on all the courses around here). Again this is not a question on if this is possible, real people are doing this and their handicaps are really going up. 

I think you just made my point when you said “if the slope and rating are not exactly correct”. So, with this hypothetical is the incorrect slope and rating to blame or the person who happened to score the same from both tee boxes? Meaning or my point, if the course is correctly rated then this scenario should not happen. At least not consistently.

Edited June 20, 2023 by Javs

[DaSquire]

2 minutes ago, Javs said:

I think you just made my point when you said “if the slope and rating are not exactly correct”. So, with this hypothetical is the incorrect slope and rating to blame or the person who happened to score the same from both tee boxes? Meaning or my point, if the course is correctly rated then this scenario should not happen. At least not consistently.

My experience in investigating this is that the course slopes are ratings here are consistently incorrect and over state the difference between the difficulty of the tee boxes. This is why this method works. 

[DaSquire]

6 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

You are both reading too much into my using the same score; that is simply because it is easier to discuss.  I personally score roughly the same on most courses if I play one tee up or one tee back.

I haven’t witnessed it either and find it hard to believe but I am sure it could happen in limited cases 

It is happening, again I would not have believed it until I saw it and started to investigate and did the math myself to understand how. It is a real thing and it does constantly work here.  

[Javs]

3 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

You are both reading too much into my using the same score; that is simply because it is easier to discuss.  I personally score roughly the same on most courses if I play one tee up or one tee back.

I haven’t witnessed it either and find it hard to believe but I am sure it could happen in limited cases 

Again I see the point. However, the score does matter. I score roughly the same as well, but it’s not the exact same score and that matters. For example if you are a 5 from the Blue and a 3 from the White. It’s roughly the same, but it isn’t. So, if you shoot 77 from the Blue and 75 from the White you could claim roughly the same. However, the system worked. However, if you shoot 77 every time from both (which I do not believe could happen statistically or physically) then yes it could alter your index. My point is if the course is rated correctly the odds of this are the same as me winning the lottery.

[DaSquire]

Just now, DaSquire said:

It is happening, again I would not have believed it until I saw it and started to investigate and did the math myself to understand how. It is a real thing and it does constantly work here.  

and can't imagine this is something that would only work here. I suspect it is something that could be done in more places, sounds like it is not something that has spread all over yet. I suspect it is coming though, keep on the lookout in your area. You have been warned, ha-ha. 

[Javs]

4 minutes ago, DaSquire said:

My experience in investigating this is that the course slopes are ratings here are consistently incorrect and over state the difference between the difficulty of the tee boxes. This is why this method works. 

That seems like a bigger issue. If the courses are not being rated correctly then that seems to be the main concern.

[richk9holes]

Individual outcomes may vary but the system is to accommodate the majority. It's not very different in any organization with rules.

I'm also one of the golfers who can score my best net score regardless of tee. I suppose I could attempt to game the system the same way being proposed, I just know my mental game I couldn't operate anywhere near my index if I was putting any thought into that aspect of it.

In my case, the same person with the same golf game will show up to the same course, same setup and score anywhere from 83-102. A major part of that is I can manage 28 putts or 42. I can do this regardless of how many FWs and gir hit, regardless of how far my approach shots are. I can hit my 3w off the ground 220y +. If I play blue tees I'm around the green in 2. If I play white tees I'm around the green in 2. If I play red tees I may be able to drive the green in many instances. This would be the "Ladybugs" sandbagger and was the topic of a Dangerfield movie about soccer.

[Javs]

Just now, DaSquire said:

and can't imagine this is something that would only work here. I suspect it is something that could be done in more places, sounds like it is not something that has spread all over yet. I suspect it is coming though, keep on the lookout in your area. You have been warned, ha-ha. 

Thank you for the heads up, but not seeing this in our area.

[richk9holes]

I guess to consolidate my thought, for a bad putter there is no "white green" and "blue green" so those of us losing all our strokes 3 putting find this topic a little awkward. 

Like, "oh I'm supposed to be taking advantage of that? I'm just trying to walk off the break on this 63' putt I seem to have whether I spin a ball into a green with my 8i or my 4h."

[JDHolmes]

You really cant get more strokes playing forward. You get less because of tee handicsp and lesser slope. Course A for MGA I get 5 strokes from white. From yellow (senior tees....which I am) I get 1. I play yellow twice a week in my Monday/Friday group.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[revkev]

On 6/20/2023 at 3:16 PM, DaSquire said:

and can't imagine this is something that would only work here. I suspect it is something that could be done in more places, sounds like it is not something that has spread all over yet. I suspect it is coming though, keep on the lookout in your area. You have been warned, ha-ha. 

What is the format that you are playing in?  Do you belong to a club that has a handicap committee?  The combo of that committee plus the handicap/slope system is supposed to make things equitable.  I'm in that category of being over 65 so in most competitive cases I'm moved up a set of tees.  My handicap goes down and I do shoot lower scores because my biggest weakness is driving distance.  It is possible that this person is not sandbagging but just has the type of game that isn't impacting by moving back or up a set of tees - that can happen - but there should be a handicap committee or some sort of oversight to the group that you play in that says wait a minute if there's something funny going on.  If you don't have that I'd move on to another league/group/club because there will always be a way to cheat a system that doesn't have an overseer.  

 

Sorry you're facing this.  

[Will_Mac]

My own game, at least, will support the OP's assertion.

I turned 55 this past November. Many club events and money games allow for 55 to 64 yr olds to play from the white tees. I'm still long and can very comfortably play the black tee tips (finished 4th place gross score this past club championship, for example).

I'll score generally the same from the blues and the whites. The path to these scores? A bit different, though, usually. From the blues, it's mostly a more consistent, cleaner round for me. From the whites, more birdies, more eagle opportunities, but also more balls finding trouble and the residual penalties. This seems to happen regardless of the club I pull from the tee, LOL...

So for money games and the ability to easily reach every par 5 in two and the penchant for more birdies when it comes to Skins day, I'll play the whites. Most of my rounds now, actually.

Over the past 7+ months or so since turning 55, I've absolutely found it harder to maintain a lower handicap with most of my rounds from the whites. It's not all due to the chosen tees as my game overall has been a relative struggle as of late. But the fact is that I will shoot similar scores from the blues and the whites, so my index has, in fact, risen due to this.

And it kills me, LOL....

I don't play handicap events because I hate sandbaggers and just don't want to deal with them. So, I only play in gross score tournaments or club skins. Watching my index rise hasn't been fun at all as I use it as my guage towards personal improvement.

So if one would target playing a forward tee so as to artificially inflate their index over time as the OP has stated, I can absolutely see that happening. Their gross scores wouldn't raise alarms, but the differential would supply them the additional couple of strokes they'd sought.

[DaSquire]

14 hours ago, JDHolmes said:

You really cant get more strokes playing forward. You get less because of tee handicsp and lesser slope. Course A for MGA I get 5 strokes from white. From yellow (senior tees....which I am) I get 1. I play yellow twice a week in my Monday/Friday group.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

Please read the rest of the posts. This is not about a single round but consistently playing from forward tees as a means of inflating ones handicap so that when play events from "regular" tees, more strokes are received. 

[DaSquire]

11 hours ago, revkev said:

What is the format that you are playing in?  Do you belong to a club that has a handicap committee?  The combo of that committee plus the handicap/slope system is supposed to make things equitable.  I'm in that category of being over 65 so in most competitive cases I'm moved up a set of tees.  My handicap goes down and I do shoot lower scores because my biggest weakness is driving distance.  It is possible that this person is not sandbagging but just has the type of game that isn't impacting by moving back or up a set of tees - that can happen - but there should be a handicap committee or some sort of oversight to the group that you play in that says wait a minute if there's something funny going on.  If you don't have that I'd move on to another league/group/club because there will always be a way to cheat a system that doesn't have an overseer.  

 

Sorry you're facing this.  

This is all public play, so no committee beyond organizers of games. The fact that you and others mention things like: don't play for money against people you don't know, the system should take care of this, other means of adjusting handicaps, etc. show that there are flaws with the current system. This is just raising awareness of another way that folks have found to sandbag their handicap that is harder to detect and seeing if other people are seeing this yet in their area. So far it seems like this is a localized issue, but suspect it will grow to other areas over time.  This will not work for all courses, but the courses in this area seem to have slope and ratings that are not in line with the actual differences in difficulty between the tee boxes (the differences in slope and rating are too great).   

[revkev]

3 hours ago, DaSquire said:

This is all public play, so no committee beyond organizers of games. The fact that you and others mention things like: don't play for money against people you don't know, the system should take care of this, other means of adjusting handicaps, etc. show that there are flaws with the current system. This is just raising awareness of another way that folks have found to sandbag their handicap that is harder to detect and seeing if other people are seeing this yet in their area. So far it seems like this is a localized issue, but suspect it will grow to other areas over time.  This will not work for all courses, but the courses in this area seem to have slope and ratings that are not in line with the actual differences in difficulty between the tee boxes (the differences in slope and rating are too great).   

Thanks for the warning - 

Yes, people sandbag and yes, the system is flawed. All handicap systems rely on the honesty of the people entering their scores. 
 

I will be honest, I don’t understand how the club or the games being public have anything to do with there not being oversight. I play in a league that’s public and played on a public course. We have officers who police the league handicaps. They aren’t from the golf course, they are elected league members.  This has been true of every league or Men’s group that I’ve been a part of throughout my adult golfing life - 45years. Who keeps track of the money? How do you know anyone is telling the truth about their handicap? 
 

I have seen guys warned, censored and ultimately kicked out of groups, leagues and in one extreme case a club for sandbagging - that guy was banned from every club in the county that I lived in. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, DaSquire said:

This is all public play, so no committee beyond organizers of games. The fact that you and others mention things like: don't play for money against people you don't know, the system should take care of this, other means of adjusting handicaps, etc. show that there are flaws with the current system. This is just raising awareness of another way that folks have found to sandbag their handicap that is harder to detect and seeing if other people are seeing this yet in their area. So far it seems like this is a localized issue, but suspect it will grow to other areas over time.  This will not work for all courses, but the courses in this area seem to have slope and ratings that are not in line with the actual differences in difficulty between the tee boxes (the differences in slope and rating are too great).   

It’s not about the different difficulty of the tee box but rather the difference in scores between high and low handicaps. #1 is where a stroke is most useful.

Then whatever 9 that is on odd numbers are used for handicapping and are assigned so that strikes can be used before a 9 or 18 hole match would end.

The even number holes are placed on the other 9

[Middler]

On 6/19/2023 at 1:20 PM, funkyjudge said:

If that happens consistently, I would be very suspicious of some sandbagging going on. When a golfer moves up to a shorter (and thus “easier”) set of tees, he or she should shoot lower scores — maybe not a great deal lower, but at least a couple of strokes.

Exactly. GHIN can’t do anything about players who move up and shoot the same scores as from longer tees. That’s not a loophole in the handicap calculation…nothing for GHIN to fix.

[JDHolmes]

Please read the rest of the posts. This is not about a single round but consistently playing from forward tees as a means of inflating ones handicap so that when play events from "regular" tees, more strokes are received. 

Unforunately, I have read the thread. That aside, my post had nothing to do with a single round. Moving back always increases strokes. Even if one plays a "bit" better back, it will all equal out. The only way to change that is to sandbag and your handicap committee should resolve that.

Or move back and compete with them with more strokes.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk

[DaSquire]

14 hours ago, JDHolmes said:

Unforunately, I have read the thread. That aside, my post had nothing to do with a single round. Moving back always increases strokes. Even if one plays a "bit" better back, it will all equal out. The only way to change that is to sandbag and your handicap committee should resolve that.

Or move back and compete with them with more strokes.

Sent from my SM-G991U using Tapatalk
 

Not what we are seeing here. Players are intentionally regularly playing from tees more forward than their ability to play would indicate. When they do this their handicaps go up (this is not a theory, it is actually happening and it works, they know it and are continuing to do it intentionally and starting to tell others to do it) because the slope and ratings overstate the change in difficulty from shorter tees. This way they have higher handicaps and therefore get more strokes when play back tees. Since they are playing within the confines of the rules ("I can play any tee I want" is the defense, which is backed up by the USGA rules) it makes this difficult for even a committee to enforce. Basically they have discovered how to exploit the system in a new way to sandbag, so bring this up for others to start to look for this in other places. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, DaSquire said:

Not what we are seeing here. Players are intentionally regularly playing from tees more forward than their ability to play would indicate. When they do this their handicaps go up (this is not a theory, it is actually happening and it works, they know it and are continuing to do it intentionally and starting to tell others to do it) because the slope and ratings overstate the change in difficulty from shorter tees. This way they have higher handicaps and therefore get more strokes when play back tees. Since they are playing within the confines of the rules ("I can play any tee I want" is the defense, which is backed up by the USGA rules) it makes this difficult for even a committee to enforce. Basically they have discovered how to exploit the system in a new way to sandbag, so bring this up for others to start to look for this in other places. 

This is a course rating issue not a handicap per se issue. So it’s not as likely going to affect most areas where course ratings are more accurate. 

There’s not much that can be done to stop people from sandbagging. People can enter whatever score they want in a system or not enter one at all. Sandbagging has been going on for a long time and will keep happening as long as people can do it.

There are a few options. Either don’t play in net tournaments and only play gross tournaments, don’t play in any tournaments or play in these tournaments and accept there is going to be sandbaggers and it is what it is.

Continuing to harp on a something that isn’t going to get fixed and isn’t common solves nothing 

[cnosil]

19 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

This is a course rating issue not a handicap per se issue. So it’s not as likely going to affect most areas where course ratings are more accurate. 

Agree,  course needs to be rated again to reflect a more accurate slope and rating.  

[Golf2Much]

The course's overall rating and slope are a summation of each holes' fairway and green characteristics for both scratch (index of 0.0) and bogey (index of 20.0 for men, 24.0 for women) players.   Assuming the greens characteristics (e.g. size, percent bunker coverage, green surface, adjacent penalty areas, other adjustments, etc.) are fairly consistent between both classes of golfers, let's look at the fairways.

Each tee box is assessed based on the established hitting distances and subsequent landing areas for both men and women scratch and bogey golfers.  The shot lengths for men scratch golfer tee shot is 250 yards (230 yard carry with 20 yard roll) and 220 yards (200 carry and 20 yard roll) for subsequent shots.  Comparable shot lengths for bogey golfers are 200 yards (180 yard carry and 20 yard roll) and 170 yards (150 yards with 20 yard roll).  There are also corresponding distances for women scratch and bogey golfers.  The obstacles, penalty areas, fairway topography, doglegs, forced lay ups, trees, etc. from each tee box to those designated landing locations influences the overall difficulty of the hole.  So, trouble for a bogey golfer at 200 yards from one tee box might not be an issue for a scratch golfer from the same tees (or vice versa).   

Unless there's new tee locations, new obstacles added (or subtracted) or other significant changes on the course in those designated landing areas, re-rating the course should not have a major impact on the course rating or slope.  Of course, beauty "is in the eye of the beholder" and one group of course raters may look at the same landing areas and pick up some subtle differences, but they typically do not yield significant changes in ratings or slopes.   Minor course changes, improvement (or degradation) in the condition of the course and other factors are picked up when courses are rated on a ten-year cycle.

Since the rating system is based on average set distances and resulting landing areas, there's always going to issues with tails of the distribution (people who hit it too far and not enough).   In the end, if someone wants to take advantage of the course design and tee box location to take money from their friends, then maybe they are not your friends.  If it's a competitive round, maybe the handicap committee needs to address some of these issues by implementing local rules for who can play what tee boxes.  

[Javs]

I found this article interesting about which tees should be played:

https://golf.com/news/how-far-7-iron-answer-tell-which-tees-play/?amp=1

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, Javs said:

I found this article interesting about which tees should be played:

The "Best Tees" system, I am all for ANY attempt to get people to play appropriate tees more often. I found the golf.com article not very helpful in saying how the USGA is going to calculate this (it just shows the results) so I would recommend following the link to the USGA's site. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't take into account SKILL. It is purely distance, which is moronic. I probably hit my 7 iron farther than Lydia Ko (per Trackman, stock 7 irons for LPGA players are about 145 yds) but I would not expect to play the same tees as her. She is a touring professional and incredibly talented whereas I am, well, me. 

I have trotted this example out a lot but to update it, I pulled up Rickie Fowler's (who is not a power hitter) average 2nd shot length on par 4s at the Rocket Mortgage. It was 133 yds which is probably a PW.  If a PGA tour event is averaging a PW in to par 4s in regulation, why shouldn't the average player look to have less than a PW in (on average) for par 4s? 

A few funny excerpts from the player feedback:

"Par 5s feel too short when they require a driver-fairway wood-medium pitch shot. They are too long when they exceed driver-fairway wood-6 iron and they are about right when they are driver-fairway wood-9 iron." -- Man these people must HATE the PGA Tour where it is Driver-6 iron into par 5s! Honestly, I don't think I often play par 5s that are "too short" even at 6,000 yd courses. If you can reach a par 5 in two, that is generally FUN whereas if you have to go driver + fw + 5 iron that is not fun. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by vandyland

[Javs]

12 minutes ago, vandyland said:

The "Best Tees" system, I am all for ANY attempt to get people to play appropriate tees more often. I found the golf.com article not very helpful in saying how the USGA is going to calculate this (it just shows the results) so I would recommend following the link to the USGA's site. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't take into account SKILL. It is purely distance, which is moronic. I probably hit my 7 iron farther than Lydia Ko (per Trackman, stock 7 irons for LPGA players are about 145 yds) but I would not expect to play the same tees as her. She is a touring professional and incredibly talented whereas I am, well, me. 

A few funny excerpts from the player feedback:

"Par 5s feel too short when they require a driver-fairway wood-medium pitch shot. They are too long when they exceed driver-fairway wood-6 iron and they are about right when they are driver-fairway wood-9 iron." -- Man these people must HATE the PGA Tour where it is Driver-6 iron into par 5s! Honestly, I don't think I often play par 5s that are "too short" even at 6,000 yd courses. If you can reach a par 5 in two, that is generally FUN whereas if you have to go driver + fw + 5 iron that is not fun. 

Agree and just found the article interesting. No matter the distance, one still has to hit the shots and put the ball in the hole. 

[Brooky03]

6 hours ago, vandyland said:

The "Best Tees" system, I am all for ANY attempt to get people to play appropriate tees more often. I found the golf.com article not very helpful in saying how the USGA is going to calculate this (it just shows the results) so I would recommend following the link to the USGA's site. The problem with this approach is that it doesn't take into account SKILL. It is purely distance, which is moronic. I probably hit my 7 iron farther than Lydia Ko (per Trackman, stock 7 irons for LPGA players are about 145 yds) but I would not expect to play the same tees as her. She is a touring professional and incredibly talented whereas I am, well, me. 

I have trotted this example out a lot but to update it, I pulled up Rickie Fowler's (who is not a power hitter) average 2nd shot length on par 4s at the Rocket Mortgage. It was 133 yds which is probably a PW.  If a PGA tour event is averaging a PW in to par 4s in regulation, why shouldn't the average player look to have less than a PW in (on average) for par 4s? 

A few funny excerpts from the player feedback:

"Par 5s feel too short when they require a driver-fairway wood-medium pitch shot. They are too long when they exceed driver-fairway wood-6 iron and they are about right when they are driver-fairway wood-9 iron." -- Man these people must HATE the PGA Tour where it is Driver-6 iron into par 5s! Honestly, I don't think I often play par 5s that are "too short" even at 6,000 yd courses. If you can reach a par 5 in two, that is generally FUN whereas if you have to go driver + fw + 5 iron that is not fun. 

The right answer will be a combination of skill and distance, but I've always given the edge to distance when determining which tees to play.

To your LPGA example, why not play the same tees?  Handicap adjusts for the skill difference.  Why would you need handicap and different tees to make up the skill gap?  This is where I think the argument for choosing tees primarily by distance is a strong one.  If you put the #1 LPGA golfer against the #1 PGA golfer, neither will be carrying a handicap, so 'skill' is essentially removed as a variable.  Both are obviously very skilled and, within reason, probably very close in ability on and around greens.  The difference will be the PGA golfer hitting driver 320 without swinging out of his shoes and the LPGA golfer putting everything she has into a 280 drive.  The PGA golfer will probably be 2 clubs longer throughout the bag.  So the LPGA golfer, arguably of equal skill, should be playing shorter tees than the PGA golfer.  That's how to close that gap and make it a competitive match.

Edited July 6, 2023 by Brooky03

[RickyBobby_PR]

8 hours ago, Brooky03 said:

The right answer will be a combination of skill and distance, but I've always given the edge to distance when determining which tees to play.

To your LPGA example, why not play the same tees?  Handicap adjusts for the skill difference.  Why would you need handicap and different tees to make up the skill gap?  This is where I think the argument for choosing tees primarily by distance is a strong one.  If you put the #1 LPGA golfer against the #1 PGA golfer, neither will be carrying a handicap, so 'skill' is essentially removed as a variable.  Both are obviously very skilled and, within reason, probably very close in ability on and around greens.  The difference will be the PGA golfer hitting driver 320 without swinging out of his shoes and the LPGA golfer putting everything she has into a 280 drive.  The PGA golfer will probably be 2 clubs longer throughout the bag.  So the LPGA golfer, arguably of equal skill, should be playing shorter tees than the PGA golfer.  That's how to close that gap and make it a competitive match.

Well said. I never understood the argument that because they are the best or better the amateur should be playing shorter tees while at the same time saying lpga is more related because they hit the ball the same distances as whoever is making the post. Or that pros should be challenged throughout the bag yet people choose to play shorter distances because of perceived skill, its fun or it’s easier.
 

The pros are trying to find ways to make it easier for themselves too. Finding clubs that give them the ability to hit the shots they are trying ti make, training in the gym and overspeed training to gain distance. Wedge setups for the courses they are playing, and so on.

I think if one is having to hit mid to long irons in on every par 4 or can’t reach at least 1/2 the par 3s with an iron then they are playing to far back, but also dont care if they are as long as they aren’t holding up the pace of play

[vandyland]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Or that pros should be challenged throughout the bag yet people choose to play shorter distances because of perceived skill, its fun or it’s easier.

I guess the counter argument to that is that they are competing to be the best golfers in the world, get paid $$$$ and practice and train for golf all day every day vs say...me...who plays for fun, actually spends $$$$ to play and I get about an hour a day (MAX) to hit into a net behind my house after I put my kids to bed and do all the chores. 

 

But to the OP's point ( @DaSquire), my low HDCP was a two years ago when I was playing 6,500 yds and I got down to a 3.2. Since I moved up to 6,000 yds, my handicap is now 6 (other contributing factors has been rebuilding my swing via No Turn Cast but I feel like I am hitting the ball pretty good these days) but I just don't make putts. So there may be some truth to his comment though I am not really "sandbagging", at least not intentionally. Plus I don't play in handicapped events but maybe once or twice a year. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by vandyland

[Javs]

10 minutes ago, vandyland said:

I guess the counter argument to that is that they are competing to be the best golfers in the world, get paid $$$$ and practice and train for golf all day every day vs say...me...who plays for fun, actually spends $$$$ to play and I get about an hour a day (MAX) to hit into a net behind my house after I put my kids to bed and do all the chores. 

 

But to the OP's point ( @DaSquire), my low HDCP was a two years ago when I was playing 6,500 yds and I got down to a 3.2. Since I moved up to 6,000 yds, my handicap is now 6 (other contributing factors has been rebuilding my swing via No Turn Cast but I feel like I am hitting the ball pretty good these days) but I just don't make putts. So there may be some truth to his comment though I am not really "sandbagging", at least not intentionally. Plus I don't play in handicapped events but maybe once or twice a year. 

Rebuilding a swing will usually result in an increase before you see payoff. At least in my experience.