Sandbagging by playing shorter tees?

[funkyjudge]

33 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don't disagree with anything you have said.    The OP is discussing sandbagging and a way he believes is being used to beat the system. 

I get accused of being a sandbagger almost every time I shoot one of these rounds, or when I have a particularly great driving round, as I did this evening. One of the members of the team we played against today told me that I should be ashamed of myself, and I asked “why?”  He said that I should be playing the blue tees….NOBODY plays the blue tees in any league at this course.

[cnosil]

Just now, funkyjudge said:

I get accused of being a sandbagger almost every time I shoot one of these rounds, or when I have a particularly great driving round, as I did this evening. One of the members of the team we played against today told me that I should be ashamed of myself, and I asked “why?”  He said that I should be playing the blue tees….NOBODY plays the blue tees in any league at this course.

i guess we can never make everyone happy

 

[funkyjudge]

39 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I don't disagree with anything you have said.    The OP is discussing sandbagging and a way he believes is being used to beat the system. 

By the way, there is a group of people who will always try to beat the system. Such is the nature of mankind!

[fixyurdivot]

9 hours ago, DaSquire said:

inn playing with multiple golf groups, it has become clear that some folks have figured a loophole in the handicap calculations. Players who should play the typical "blue" tees have noticed that if they regularly play from the "white" or "red" tees that their scores are affected only slightly but their indexes rise. This is due to the slope/rating of more forward tees being much lower than how scores change in reality. 

By way of example, player A is a 9 from the blue. When they start playing regularly from the white their handicap goes up to 11 or 12 and they score about the same or only a stroke or two better on average. So when playing for cash from the blue, they end up getting a few extra strokes for free. 

I wrote to the USGA and their response is that this cannot happen and the handicap system will account for this perfectly. In reality, at least in our area, this is not the case at all and more people have discovered it and are taking advantage of "playing it forward" to quiet sandbag. 

Is this only an affect we are seeing in our area, or have others seen players exploiting playing more rounds from the shorter tees to sandbag a few more strokes?

Have any of you tried this and did it work for you?

Now playing in WAY more casual competition and men's legaue golf than ever before in my life, I see a little "manipulation" going on here.  In some ways I tip my hat to those who have figured out whatever advantage playing from different tees affords them.  In men's league they only allow 1 or 2 tee changes/season (winter and summer), and keep close tabs on players, so I don't think whatever advantage is much if anything. 

However, in our casual play groups (still $$ involved), I note some seem to switch around depending on which course and conditions.  Our courses have 5 tees and combos. We do require GHIN index be applied and, presuming those and the ratings are accurate, there should be no advantage.  But, some of the guys have played these same four courses for nearly 20 years and one can "get to know a course" pretty well in that amount of rounds.  

But to be honest, I really don't care.  I'm not at work, I'm playing golf, and if they end up getting some of my $5 or $10 dollar bill by playing tees that gives them and edge, so be it.  I choose the tees that fit my driving distance and makes the round challenging and fun.

 

[Kenny B]

8 hours ago, funkyjudge said:

My comment was in reference to a golfer's handicap AT THE SAME TIME, which will always be lower from tees that are further forward.  In your case, you are talking about a change over a period of time, and I suspect that at the time your index was 11.2 from the white tees, it had risen to about 14 or 15 from the blues.

Not really.  I haven’t tried playing from the Blues lately, but last year my scores were not that much different from Blues to Whites and there is 600y difference between them.  My weakness is being a short hitter, but mostly straight, so I miss a lot of greens.  However, my short game and putting are strengths and I make a lot of pars.  I don’t make many birdies even from the Whites.  Most of the time I’m going to have a couple bad holes whether I’m playing Blues or Whites.  I can go a little lower from the Whites, but I can also score worse than a decent day from the Blues.  I have shot lower than my age 75 from both sets of tees, but also mid-80’s from the Whites on bad days.  The difference is I can’t consistently score low enough from the Whites to offset the tee differential so my index rises.

[Kenny B]

6 hours ago, Caddie1966 said:

If you post your score by hole, GHIN will adjust your score by hole to reduce your net if you exceed the limit per hole based on your handicap.  i.e.  if you are a 10, GHIN will adjust any triple or higher down to a double.

Not in all cases.  The maximum score that can be posted on a hole is Net Double Bogey, no matter your handicap.  If you are a 10, you can post a triple if it is a stroke hole.

[DaSquire]

18 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Not necessarily.  Last year I moved up to the White tees from the Blue tees.  My index has gone up a little since then because I have to consistently shoot lower scores in order to maintain it; I do occasionally but not enough.  My course handicap from the Whites is 6 and is 9 from the Blues.  My index from the Blues was just under 10 and now it's 11.2 from the Whites.  From the Blue tees I had to play FW/hybrids for nearly all 2nd and 3rd shots and rely on wedges a lot; very few iron shots.  I can still do that but I like hitting more iron shots, and I have no reason to go back to the Blues.

Good example of someone seeing this effect on their index. Now imagine someone doing this intentionally with the intent of raising their index. It is harder to detect than other forms of sandbagging.

[DaSquire]

14 hours ago, Javs said:

How does moving up tees help a sandbagger? I am not tracking this logic. If someone wanted to raise their handicap they would play consistently from the tips with a higher sloped course. Making the course shorter or easier won’t raise a handicap unless they lie about the score. Then that is an entirely different matter.

It's not a logic experiment, we are actually seeing this be true. I also thought like you until seeing this first hand. I will post some more examples later to try to further explain.  

14 hours ago, cnosil said:

He is addressing the player that shoots the same scores from either the blue or white tees.    If the player shoots 85 from the white they will establish a handicap based on that.   If they still can shoot 85 from the blues they will get more strokes in a tournament.   It is a fairly unique scenario that could happen depending on players strengths and weaknesses.   

Exactly!!!

[Javs]

6 minutes ago, DaSquire said:

It's not a logic experiment, we are actually seeing this be true. I also thought like you until seeing this first hand. I will post some more examples later to try to further explain.  

Exactly!!!

Thank you for the clarity, I get your point now.

[DaSquire]

15 hours ago, vandyland said:

First of all, I can play whatever tees I want. I watch guys my age play the TIPS all the time when they are 20+ hdcps and, while it annoys me, as long as they keep up the pace of play I have no problem with it. I don't really play competitive golf (I play by all the rules and putt everything out but that is just so I have a real score) and I find it is more fun to play from 6,000 yds. It is not so I can puff my chest out and drive greens, I just enjoy it more. I am a 5-7 HDCP so really who cares? I'm not a good player. Unless you are scratch or a +HDCP, you aren't really anything special, in my opinion. Just go out and have fun. 

Do I actually hit it 280? Quite often yes, here are some from today's round:

 

 

 

If you do not play tournaments or in cash games then not really the target audience for this post, but thank you for your contribution.

But to use your comments as an example since they are posted. This "I can play whatever tee I want" is the logic the sandbaggers use to cover their intentional deceit. It is a pretty good argument that is hard to refute, this is why it is such a good sandbagging tool and why I am trying to bring this issue to the attention of USGA and others. This is a flaw in the world handicap system that is now actively being exploited. 

 

[DaSquire]

12 hours ago, cnosil said:

I don't disagree with anything you have said.    The OP is discussing sandbagging and a way he believes is being used to beat the system. 

Exactly!

[GolfSpy_APH]

37 minutes ago, DaSquire said:

If you do not play tournaments or in cash games then not really the target audience for this post, but thank you for your contribution.

But to use your comments as an example since they are posted. This "I can play whatever tee I want" is the logic the sandbaggers use to cover their intentional deceit. It is a pretty good argument that is hard to refute, this is why it is such a good sandbagging tool and why I am trying to bring this issue to the attention of USGA and others. This is a flaw in the world handicap system that is now actively being exploited. 

 

Isn't playing whatever tees a golfer prefers part of the great thing about this sport?

Whether playing up or back or hybrid tees that's the option of the Golfer. I only suggest that we don't blanket statement that sandbaggers only use this term. 

I get what you're saying, but can honestly say never before seen this as an issue or come across this any course or tournament I have played in.

[BKervin]

17 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Isn't playing whatever tees a golfer prefers part of the great thing about this sport?

Whether playing up or back or hybrid tees that's the option of the Golfer. I only suggest that we don't blanket statement that sandbaggers only use this term. 

I get what you're saying, but can honestly say never before seen this as an issue or come across this any course or tournament I have played in.

I know that in various tournaments I've played the Pro at the course adjusts the handicap based on the tee you will be playing.

I have an issue with those who truly have a low handicap but choose to record higher scores to manipulate their handicap to a higher number so that they can win tournaments!

This comes back the ethical part of this or any sport - simply be truthful with it!

[DaSquire]

Thanks for all of the discussion. Here is another way to look at this to help clarify as there is some confusions amongst some posters, so I must not have been as clear as I could have been initially.

If we take 2 "robot" golfers who always shoot net 75 regardless of tee box, what would their index be after they played 20 rounds?

If we take course handicap for the specific course from the example. From each tee box their course handicap is (assuming a starting point of 9.9 index):

White-8 Gold-6

so to shoot 75 they need to shoot

White-83 

Gold-81

Which after 20 rounds would result in new handicap indexes of:

White Player - 12.8 Gold - 13.3 

So if they play an event from the white tees then:

White Player - 11 strokes

Gold player - 12 strokes

So in the perfect environment a handicap established from the gold has an advantage of a stroke just by playing from the gold tees. Now I admit this is a bit of an anomaly due to the slope and rating of this course, but have seen this kind of anomaly on many course slope/ratings which is part of the crux of the question. Are ratings here just wrong or is this a more widespread issue?

In reality we are not net scoring robots, so here is where the real juices comes from the system. If our players both shoot the same best 8 gross of 82 from the white and gold respectively their indexes are:

Historical White tee player - 11.9 and Historical Gold tee player - 14.3

So if they play a tournament both from the white tees then the strokes are:

Historical White tee player - 10 strokes

Historical Gold tee player - 13 strokes (remember he is playing the white tee in this tournament) 

This is where the gap that sandbaggers are exploiting exists.

Yes, if all golfers shoot net par their indexes will be very close to the same, but who does that? Most scores are a gross that results in a net above par. Even if the sandbaggers slip up and shoot say a 73, from the white this is a differential of 3.3 but from the gold it is 5.3 so less "harmful" to the handicap if their objective is to keep it artificially high. (for sake of this post I am totally ignoring the fact that when posting a sandbagger might intentionally "accidentally" post scores from a more forward tee in GHIN, which happens too, but is a different form of cheating and not for discussion here, but its the internet so someone will comment on it :) ) 

Again not talking about honest golfers here, but sandbaggers who have noticed that if they shoot about the same from a more forward tee this is how their handicaps go up by an amount that makes a real difference come time to play in tournaments or in cash games. And they can hide behind the "I can play any tee I want and handicap system accounts for it" defense when called out as the sandbaggers. So it's really a pretty good con and I sort of respect them for figuring it out, but not enough to keep giving them my money.  

Any sandbaggers want to comment on if they have noticed this or if they have tried it where they live and if it worked or not?

 

38 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Isn't playing whatever tees a golfer prefers part of the great thing about this sport?

Whether playing up or back or hybrid tees that's the option of the Golfer. I only suggest that we don't blanket statement that sandbaggers only use this term. 

I get what you're saying, but can honestly say never before seen this as an issue or come across this any course or tournament I have played in.

Excellent feedback. Thank you for the input.  

Edited June 20, 2023 by DaSquire
extra words removed were added back in where they fit more properly

[DaSquire]

As far as a time frame I have only started seeing folks do this intentionally in the last 2 years or so. Wonder if it will become more widespread or not. Have asked Arccos if they could look into this within their great amount of data on players and rounds and write an article about if it is true in other places or not. Not sure if they will, but would be interesting.  

[vandyland]

@DaSquire - I actually really like how deep you are going into this. I get similarly passionate about topics so I am glad you have joined the forum!

One thing I will point out that may or may not be germane to this conversation is that when I do have to play from 6,500 - 6,700 yds sometimes the distances can be a bit jarring. I played a high end country club as a guest a few weeks ago so I did not say a word about what tees they wanted to play. They chose the 6,700 yd tees and pretty much all of the par 3s were 190+ yds. I have never hit so many "decent" shots that were not rewarded. I definitely felt "challenged" as I was constantly hitting 5 irons (185-190 yd carry) and 4 irons (200-205 yd carry) into penal greens. I think if I played out there all the time, from those tees, I would probably be a 8 hdcp instead the 5-6 I am now. I shot 84 and felt like I hit the ball great, haha. 

I will say there are SO many ways to manipulate handicaps and it is almost impossible to police it. It comes down to people have to be honest and many are simply not. This is one of the few sports where handicapping even exists and unless I am playing someone I KNOW, I just avoid doing handicaps at all. It is fairly stupid and winning a tournament NET is such a strange thing to me. I understand it allows people of all skill levels to "compete" but what other sport works like that? I think winning gross is really all that matters. 

A new way of sandbagging that I had not really considered was this guy I played with a few rounds ago. We played this fairly tight course and he was hitting driver A LOT and would end up in the woods and then would try these incredible recovery shots (he actually pulled off a few but others would hit a tree or otherwise end up in a similarly bad situation). On the 12th hole he told me, "when I am not playing with my friends or in a 'game' I like to play REALLY aggressive." I asked him why and he said that he thought it accomplished two things, (1) It was fun pulling off really difficult shots and made routine shots easier and (2) generally increased his handicap without him feeling like he was actively manipulating it. He shot in the mid 90s and probably would have shot in the mid 80s if he played even reasonably sane golf. Honestly, I am not even sure how that was fun for him but he seemed to enjoy it. I did feel like he was manipulating his handicap since he was playing in such a way that he knew would likely increase his handicap. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by vandyland

[Javs]

1 hour ago, DaSquire said:

Thanks for all of the discussion. Here is another way to look at this to help clarify as there is some confusions amongst some posters, so I must not have been as clear as I could have been initially.

If we take 2 "robot" golfers who always shoot net 75 regardless of tee box, what would their index be after they played 20 rounds?

If we take course handicap for the specific course from the example. From each tee box their course handicap is (assuming a starting point of 9.9 index):

White-8 Gold-6

so to shoot 75 they need to shoot

White-83 

Gold-81

Which after 20 rounds would result in new handicap indexes of:

White Player - 12.8 Gold - 13.3 

So if they play an event from the white tees then:

White Player - 11 strokes

Gold player - 12 strokes

So in the perfect environment a handicap established from the gold has an advantage of a stroke just by playing from the gold tees. Now I admit this is a bit of an anomaly due to the slope and rating of this course, but have seen this kind of anomaly on many course slope/ratings which is part of the crux of the question. Are ratings here just wrong or is this a more widespread issue?

In reality we are not net scoring robots, so here is where the real juices comes from the system. If our players both shoot the same best 8 gross of 82 from the white and gold respectively their indexes are:

Historical White tee player - 11.9 and Historical Gold tee player - 14.3

So if they play a tournament both from the white tees then the strokes are:

Historical White tee player - 10 strokes

Historical Gold tee player - 13 strokes (remember he is playing the white tee in this tournament) 

This is where the gap that sandbaggers are exploiting exists.

Yes, if all golfers shoot net par their indexes will be very close to the same, but who does that? Most scores are a gross that results in a net above par. Even if the sandbaggers slip up and shoot say a 73, from the white this is a differential of 3.3 but from the gold it is 5.3 so less "harmful" to the handicap if their objective is to keep it artificially high. (for sake of this post I am totally ignoring the fact that when posting a sandbagger might intentionally "accidentally" post scores from a more forward tee in GHIN, which happens too, but is a different form of cheating and not for discussion here, but its the internet so someone will comment on it :) ) 

Again not talking about honest golfers here, but sandbaggers who have noticed that if they shoot about the same from a more forward tee this is how their handicaps go up by an amount that makes a real difference come time to play in tournaments or in cash games. And they can hide behind the "I can play any tee I want and handicap system accounts for it" defense when called out as the sandbaggers. So it's really a pretty good con and I sort of respect them for figuring it out, but not enough to keep giving them my money.  

Any sandbaggers want to comment on if they have noticed this or if they have tried it where they live and if it worked or not?

 

Excellent feedback. Thank you for the input.  

Thank you for all the detail. I think I was following. However, I didn’t see where the slope was mentioned in your example? Or did I miss it? Slope matters as well. 
The place I play we have 3 courses with 5 tee boxes. I am a 4.8 index. However, depending on the course and tees I can be a 8 all the way to a plus 1. I play where the men’s club or our daily games put us. I might be slow, but I haven’t fully tracked the entire argument. As I am more likely to shoot low from the Green or Blue tees than the Black. So with the slope and distance adjustment things all stay even. 

Edited June 20, 2023 by Javs

[DaSquire]

25 minutes ago, Javs said:

Thank you for all the detail. I think I was following. However, I didn’t see where the slope was mentioned in your example? Or did I miss it? Slope matters as well. 

 

26 minutes ago, Javs said:

Thank you for all the detail. I think I was following. However, I didn’t see where the slope was mentioned in your example? Or did I miss it? Slope matters as well. 

Slope and ratings used were 69.5/119 and 67.7/113

[DaSquire]

28 minutes ago, Javs said:

Thank you for all the detail. I think I was following. However, I didn’t see where the slope was mentioned in your example? Or did I miss it? Slope matters as well. 
The place I play we have 3 courses with 5 tee boxes. I am a 4.8 index. However, depending on the course and tees I can be a 8 all the way to a plus 1. I play where the men’s club or our daily games put us. I might be slow, but I haven’t fully tracked the entire argument. As I am more likely to shoot low from the Green or Blue tees than the Black. So with the slope and distance adjustment things all stay even. 

Then sounds like course is properly rated and sloped, but can do the math based on how much different you actually score vs how much different you are expected to score. Again I did not believe this would work until I saw people doing it and defending themselves after they started to win disproportionally vs their known ability. 

[Javs]

1 minute ago, DaSquire said:

Then sounds like course is properly rated and sloped, but can do the math based on how much different you actually score vs how much different you are expected to score. Again I did not believe this would work until I saw people doing it and defending themselves after they started to win disproportionally vs their known ability. 

Interesting, maybe I never paid attention to this. Like I said I just play where they put me and try my best every time. The sandbagging seems to take a lot of work…..

[fixyurdivot]

20 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

It just doesn't always happen that way, each player has a different set of skills. A change in distance may impact one player to a greater extent than the rating system would predict, a different player may have a much smaller scoring difference.  

Good point.  I will add something else to this discussion and that is the advantage of certain tees when playing certain game formats.  A good example is Stableford and individual quota, and players who have better than average length, increasing their chances on short par 4's and on par 5's of scoring birdies and eagles.  One of the guys in my Monday group recently moved to gold and was putting for eagle twice yesterday... would not be the case playing white.

[Javs]

8 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

Good point.  I will add something else to this discussion and that is the advantage of certain tees when playing certain game formats.  A good example is Stableford and individual quota, and players who have better than average length, increasing their chances on short par 4's and on par 5's of scoring birdies and eagles.  One of the guys in my Monday group recently moved to gold and was putting for eagle twice yesterday... would not be the case playing white.

Good point. 

[Randall Robbins]

Here is another scenario - I played in a two day tournament a long time ago where I was paired with a college golfer and two other players, one out to just play and the other a fairly decent player.  While the college kid and I spent the day going as low as we could and get in good position for the second round I overheard the decent player tell his friend that " I need a 6 here " or the like on a couple of ho ok we to get into, say, B f!ight to manipulate for the next day.  It didn't work, since they had a cap if you shot like 7 or more better the second day and they would move you up a flight which is what happened.  Justice served!

[CaptStang]

I agree with the reply that you may be calculating this incorrectly. If you have a worldwide GHIN handicap index, there is virtually no way this could occur.

I just calculated my handicap allowance at my home course and it looks like this:

GHIN Handicap Index (this is the real one-potentially could change each round)-7.9

I applied that GHIN Handicap Index to the tee boxes at my home course-here is the actual stroke allowance I would receive from the various tee boxes:

Black-13

Blue-10

White-9

Gold-5

Red-0

So the USGA reply was correct providing your course rating is accurate from the various tee boxes. 

I guess I would also ask if your playing partners all have an official GHIN handicap or are they calculating their own an app or other software system? If they have the USGA approved/endorsed GHIN system, you can look up every golfer in the system and apply the tee boxes in use for that course and you will get the same result as above-it is automatic.

Play well!

 

 

[Javs]

39 minutes ago, CaptStang said:

I agree with the reply that you may be calculating this incorrectly. If you have a worldwide GHIN handicap index, there is virtually no way this could occur.

I just calculated my handicap allowance at my home course and it looks like this:

GHIN Handicap Index (this is the real one-potentially could change each round)-7.9

I applied that GHIN Handicap Index to the tee boxes at my home course-here is the actual stroke allowance I would receive from the various tee boxes:

Black-13

Blue-10

White-9

Gold-5

Red-0

So the USGA reply was correct providing your course rating is accurate from the various tee boxes. 

I guess I would also ask if your playing partners all have an official GHIN handicap or are they calculating their own an app or other software system? If they have the USGA approved/endorsed GHIN system, you can look up every golfer in the system and apply the tee boxes in use for that course and you will get the same result as above-it is automatic.

Play well!

 

 

Excellent point and that is what I was implying when I described our courses here.  As stated we have three courses with over five sets of tee boxes we play. I could be anywhere from an 8 to a plus 1. Depends on course and tees. We all use the worldwide GHIN. I have never witnessed or heard of this issue here. 

[cnosil]

44 minutes ago, CaptStang said:

I agree with the reply that you may be calculating this incorrectly. If you have a worldwide GHIN handicap index, there is virtually no way this could occur.

 

1 minute ago, Javs said:

  As stated we have three courses with over five sets of tee boxes we play. I could be anywhere from an 8 to a plus 1. Depends on course and tees. We all use the worldwide GHIN. I have never witnessed or heard of this issue here. 

Don’t think handicap think score used to calculate handicap.   Would a player that scores 85 from the whites have the same handicap as another player that scores 85 from the blues?  The answer would be no and the player that plays the white tees would have the higher handicap.    Now think about a player that typically scores the same no matter what tees they play from; in this example they always score 85.  This can happen due to a players strengths and weaknesses.   
 

now we are going to a handicapped tournament and playing the blues.  The player that typically players the whites will rightfully have a higher handicap than the player that plays the blues based on their scores.  Now because of their abilities, both players score their typical 85 so the player that plays the white tees wins because his handicap is higher.   
 

the issue that the OP is discussing is that the handicapping system doesn’t work for players that scores remain consistent no matter what tees they play and that some have recognized that they can artificially inflate their handicap by playing the forward tees.   This isnt a complaint that people are posting incorrect scores or that they don’t post their low scores.  

[DaSquire]

57 minutes ago, CaptStang said:

I agree with the reply that you may be calculating this incorrectly. If you have a worldwide GHIN handicap index, there is virtually no way this could occur.

I just calculated my handicap allowance at my home course and it looks like this:

GHIN Handicap Index (this is the real one-potentially could change each round)-7.9

I applied that GHIN Handicap Index to the tee boxes at my home course-here is the actual stroke allowance I would receive from the various tee boxes:

Black-13

Blue-10

White-9

Gold-5

Red-0

So the USGA reply was correct providing your course rating is accurate from the various tee boxes. 

I guess I would also ask if your playing partners all have an official GHIN handicap or are they calculating their own an app or other software system? If they have the USGA approved/endorsed GHIN system, you can look up every golfer in the system and apply the tee boxes in use for that course and you will get the same result as above-it is automatic.

Play well!

 

 

No, not calculating anything incorrectly. If you normally play from the blue and then you start playing from the white tees and score very similar or even just a little lower, your handicap index may go up if the slope and rating are not exactly correct. See the specific breakdown I did above that proves this for a course here (as an example seems this has worked on all the courses around here). Again this is not a question on if this is possible, real people are doing this and their handicaps are really going up. 

[DaSquire]

4 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Don’t think handicap think score used to calculate handicap.   Would a player that scores 85 from the whites have the same handicap as another player that scores 85 from the blues?  The answer would be no and the player that plays the white tees would have the higher handicap.    Now think about a player that typically scores the same no matter what tees they play from; in this example they always score 85.  This can happen due to a players strengths and weaknesses.   
 

now we are going to a handicapped tournament and playing the blues.  The player that typically players the whites will rightfully have a higher handicap than the player that plays the blues based on their scores.  Now because of their abilities, both players score their typical 85 so the player that plays the white tees wins because his handicap is higher.   
 

the issue that the OP is discussing is that the handicapping system doesn’t work for players that scores remain consistent no matter what tees they play and that some have recognized that they can artificially inflate their handicap by playing the forward tees.   This isnt a complaint that people are posting incorrect scores or that they don’t post their low scores.  

exactly cnosil

[richk9holes]

These sandbaggers are expert level to score exactly what they're hypothetically trying to score from various tees..I think a lot of the push back is coming from this premise of "person who shoots 85 from both white and blue"

Sounds once again in one of these threads like the imaginary hypothetical is filling out his scorecard before his round.

If I tried to go score 85 from white I would be +17 by the turn. If I tried to shoot 85 from blue I'd be +11 somewhere on the front 9 before quitting keeping score. I have shot 85 or better from both blue and white at a couple courses I can think of. None of those times was I trying to micromanage my game for the sake of my handicap. I don't see how someone would be able to play anywhere near their demonstrated ability playing this way.

Maybe I'm missing the point that they always play this way and I never give any of this consideration. I guess you could get really good at manipulating your score to shooting a particular number on a golf course if you focused on it. 

My question is if you could shoot 85 on command, wouldn't you want to shoot 75 one day? But that would ruin your high handicap? This is where I get lost.

Are these handicaps calculated using 18 hole rounds exclusively and your tournaments are 9 hole? This is a common setting for sandbagging accusations from what I see.

[Javs]

35 minutes ago, cnosil said:

 

Don’t think handicap think score used to calculate handicap.   Would a player that scores 85 from the whites have the same handicap as another player that scores 85 from the blues?  The answer would be no and the player that plays the white tees would have the higher handicap.    Now think about a player that typically scores the same no matter what tees they play from; in this example they always score 85.  This can happen due to a players strengths and weaknesses.   
 

now we are going to a handicapped tournament and playing the blues.  The player that typically players the whites will rightfully have a higher handicap than the player that plays the blues based on their scores.  Now because of their abilities, both players score their typical 85 so the player that plays the white tees wins because his handicap is higher.   
 

the issue that the OP is discussing is that the handicapping system doesn’t work for players that scores remain consistent no matter what tees they play and that some have recognized that they can artificially inflate their handicap by playing the forward tees.   This isnt a complaint that people are posting incorrect scores or that they don’t post their low scores.  

I understand your point, but to me there is a flaw. First, I doubt anyone shoots the same score no matter the tees or slope. Second the system is based on score against slope and rating to create the index. I get the point, I just have not witnessed it and find it hard to believe.