Unplayable lie or embedded ball?

[Shankdog]

So I hit my third short on a par 5 into a green side bunker.  The grass at the front lip of the bunker is sort of folded over at the edge.  My ball rolled under this fold.  The bottom of the ball was touching the sand and the top was touching the folded over grass/dirt.  I attached two pictures.  One is what I saw when I walked up and the second is taken front directly over top of the ball position.  I initially took it as an unplayable lie, but as I read the definition of an embedded ball, it say, “part of the ball is below the level of the ground.”  This was grass and dirt turf that it was sitting below.  Now, I kind of think it fits the definition of an embedded ball.  Anyone have thoughts?

[cnosil]

36 minutes ago, Shankdog said:

 The bottom of the ball was touching the sand and the top was touching the folded over grass/dirt.  

 

12.1  When Your Ball Is in Bunker

Your ball is in a bunker when any part of it touches sand on the ground inside the edge of the bunker.

Your ball is also in a bunker if it is inside the edge of the bunker and rests:

On ground where sand would normally be, or

In or on a loose impediment, movable obstruction, abnormal course condition or integral object in the bunker.

[DaveP043]

I gotta agree with @cnosil, the ball is resting on sand, its in the Bunker, no Embedded Ball relief is available.  

[Shankdog]

I've marked a red line on the picture.  This was taken from directly on top.  What you're saying is the red line is what would be considered the "edge" of the bunker?  I couldn't find any definition in the rules on what "inside the edge" means.  

 

[cnosil]

14 minutes ago, Shankdog said:

I've marked a red line on the picture.  This was taken from directly on top.  What you're saying is the red line is what would be considered the "edge" of the bunker?  I couldn't find any definition in the rules on what "inside the edge" means.  

 

The part of rule 12.1 that defines that is “On ground where sand would normally be”.  What is hanging over isn’t relevant since your ball is touching the sand.  You are not embedded in a wall of the bunker that wouldn’t normally have sand.   Move that grass up three feet it would still overhang your ball and you would still be in the bunker.  
 

additionally you indicated that the ball rolled under the fold it is not embedded,   Per the rules of golf it must be in its own pitch mark which it is not based on your description   

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions

Embedded

When a player’s ball is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke and where part of the ball is below the level of the ground.

 

[DaveP043]

1 hour ago, Shankdog said:

I couldn't find any definition in the rules on what "inside the edge" means

Did you read the definition of Bunker?  That ball appears to be in the specially prepared area of sand, even though there is some General Area overhanging it.

[Shankdog]

5 hours ago, cnosil said:

https://www.usga.org/rules/rules-and-clarifications/rules-and-clarifications.html#!ruletype=fr&section=definitions

Embedded

When a player’s ball is in its own pitch-mark made as a result of the player’s previous stroke and where part of the ball is below the level of the ground.

 

It was not in its own pitch mark, therefore couldn’t be embedded.  Good catch.  I missed that.

[fixyurdivot]

I had a similar situation today.  Approach landed and embedded half in the sand and half in the grass.  I seemed to recall Hoveland and Mcilroy having similar scenarios out of the same bunker at The Open (maybe it was another event?).  Anyway, I just played it as it was and advanced it onto the green while taking out a rather large chunck of the lip/edge. Afterwards, our group discussed it and one of the guys looked up rules and stated that I should have been allowed relief, one club length, no closer to the hole.  One even said that the shape of the bunker would have likely allowed me to take that relief back onto grass.  Not a situation we run into too often, but would be good to know how to handle.

I add that the ball was in its own pitch mark (did not bounce) and was roughly have in the grass and also touching the sand.  Ask me to replicate the situation and I'd have a better chance at finally getting that elusive first ace. 

Reading this, I'm not sure my situation would apply since the ball was touching both sand and "general area"?  I think I played it correctly, but don't know for sure.

Edited October 23, 2023 by fixyurdivot

[DaveP043]

On 10/22/2023 at 11:17 PM, fixyurdivot said:

I'm not sure my situation would apply since the ball was touching both sand and "general area"?  I think I played it correctly, but don't know for sure.

Rule 2.2c helps here, when a ball is touching both the General Area and one of the 4 specific areas (Putting Green, Teeing Area, Penalty Area, Bunker), the ball is in the specific area.