I Got Beef With Club Champion

[JAFERD]

Though I play 100’ish rounds per year, most clubs in my bag have a 3-5 year life cycle -including my wedges (more on that in a different day).  So I’m not what some around here call a “club ho” - love that term BTW.  
My wife was gifted a sizable gift-card to Club Champion and she generously passed it to me.  I decided to replace my PXG Gen4 driver.  My fitting took place 4 days ago and went well.  I’m the new owner of a Titliest TSR3 head matched with a Ventus TR (whatever that means…) Black 6S shaft and a stock grip.  
I’m thrilled to have picked up 20 yards of distance with my new driver but feel icy towards using Club Champion again.  

Here’s my beef:

1. In hindsight, I realized my fitter asked me to try head and shaft combos that I could have demoed anywhere else.  5 heads and 5 shafts total.  Why is that pertinent?  The markup on Club Champion services!  What’s the point of paying the markup if the possibility of a unique head/shaft combination is 0%?  I could have saved $250 getting fit on my club’s driving range.  
 

2. My fitter didn’t inform me that Titleist is replacing TSR with new drivers in 2-3 months.  This would have been nice to know.  Not sure it would have swayed my decision to buy now but more info is better.  

Ahhh, I feel better now!
 

 

[Josh Parker]

 

What type of communication did you have with the fitter?  He put you in an upgraded shaft with the Ventus TR.  Did you ask to try different shafts?  It sounds like you got an extra 20 yards distance.  I don't disagree that they aren't "expensive" and buying clubs directly from them are marked up.  Especially if its a "stock" option the OEM carries.  I bought my irons from OEM after having my fitting with CC and was happy with the fitting but had a very honest conversation with my fitter. 

 

Edited May 18 by Josh Parker

[ChitownM2]

Titleiat will be launching new woods this year but not in 2-3 months, it will be late or at the end of the season depending on where you live.  Also, it's their job to sell you a club and imo up to the person being fitted to research what clubs are available and when they will be replaced and schedule your fitting appropriately if the product life cycle is important to them.  

Knowing what you know now, would you have decided to come back and get for again in October for the new totalist driver?  It's not going to be the same club so it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 swap for what you were fitted into.

All that said, I'm not a big fan of CC either.  I think they have a lot of fitters who aren't the best, some who are definitely more interested in earning a commission than helping people, and their prices are generally crap but none of this is a secret so people should know what they are getting into before going.

[Hacker60521]

@JAFERD I’m sorry you had such a bad experience. And like @ChitownM2 I’ve had one CC fitting and left without purchasing anything because I felt like the fitter was pushing a sale rather than a fitting. That said @ChitownM2 and I seem to both be in the Chicago area so perhaps it’s just out here. 

That said, I also had a fitting with TrueSpec and it was amazing. The fitting started with an interview around what’s going well, where I’d like to see improvements, etc. The fitter then asked what I expected for a price range for clubs. This really helped guide the rest of the fitting. Walked away with 4I- wedge set.  Since we couldn’t find a better driver we didn’t make a change. So I’m a true believer in fittings. But like many things it’s the fitter that makes the difference not the Company they work for. 

[JAFERD]

6 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

Titleiat will be launching new woods this year but not in 2-3 months, it will be late or at the end of the season depending on where you live.  Also, it's their job to sell you a club and imo up to the person being fitted to research what clubs are available and when they will be replaced and schedule your fitting appropriately if the product life cycle is important to them.  

Knowing what you know now, would you have decided to come back and get for again in October for the new totalist driver?  It's not going to be the same club so it wouldn't necessarily be a 1:1 swap for what you were fitted into.

All that said, I'm not a big fan of CC either.  I think they have a lot of fitters who aren't the best, some who are definitely more interested in earning a commission than helping people, and their prices are generally crap but none of this is a secret so people should know what they are getting into before going.

Respectfully, I disagree that the onus is on me to know going in which head/shaft combos are unique and which aren’t.  That onus should be on the fitter.  That’s the only product they are selling.  In regard to Titleist’s new driver line, my club pro spoke to his Titleist rep yesterday.  Fittings start in late August-September with deliveries in October.  

Would I have purchased the club if I had known?  Probably.  Titleist rep told my pro the head should have been discounted this late in its life cycle - and it was not.  No bueno!
 

[Josh Parker]

2 minutes ago, Hacker60521 said:

The fitting started with an interview around what’s going well, where I’d like to see improvements, etc. The fitter then asked what I expected for a price range for clubs. This really helped guide the rest of the fitting. 

Such a huge piece to a good fitting!  Communication.  It has to come from both sides so that expectations can be met and end goal accomplished.  

[ChitownM2]

47 minutes ago, JAFERD said:

Respectfully, I disagree that the onus is on me to know going in which head/shaft combos are unique and which aren’t.  That onus should be on the fitter.  That’s the only product they are selling.  In regard to Titleist’s new driver line, my club pro spoke to his Titleist rep yesterday.  Fittings start in late August-September with deliveries in October.  

Would I have purchased the club if I had known?  Probably.  Titleist rep told my pro the head should have been discounted this late in its life cycle - and it was not.  No bueno!
 

I'm not sure what you mean by unique.  A ventus is obviously one of the most popular aftermarket shafts out there right now but it's still an aftermarket option, albeit one that is available from Titleist.  

Right now the current retail price on a TSr3 is $450 so if you paid more I would go back to them and ask them to adjust the price.  CC charges full retail price but not more, at least in my experience

Edited May 18 by ChitownM2

[JAFERD]

32 minutes ago, ChitownM2 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by unique.  A ventus is obviously one of the most popular aftermarket shafts out there right now but it's still an aftermarket option, albeit one that is available from Titleist.  

Right now the current retail price on a TSr3 is $450 so if you paid more I would go back to them and ask them to adjust the price.  CC charges full retail price but not more, at least in my experience

Unique meaning a combination not offered by Titleist.  Otherwise, what’s the point of paying (much) higher than MSRP?  The only reason I made the purchase was the gift card offset.  

[JAFERD]

51 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

Such a huge piece to a good fitting!  Communication.  It has to come from both sides so that expectations can be met and end goal accomplished.  

Agreed.  The fitter and me had a good talk re: goals.  My bad (I guess) for not specifically asking to demo club/shaft combos exclusive to CH.  

[Josh Parker]

9 minutes ago, JAFERD said:

Unique meaning a combination not offered by Titleist.  Otherwise, what’s the point of paying (much) higher than MSRP?  The only reason I made the purchase was the gift card offset.  

What did they charge?  I just looked at Titleist website and with the Ventus TR they have the dang shaft marked up to $345 extra for a total of $794.  

[cnosil]

29 minutes ago, JAFERD said:

Unique meaning a combination not offered by Titleist.  Otherwise, what’s the point of paying (much) higher than MSRP?  The only reason I made the purchase was the gift card offset.  

The job of a fitter is to find the head/shaft combination that works for you.   That could be a stock offering from an OEM or it could be an exotic shaft costing close to $1000 (just for the shaft).     Usually people complain that they were fit into some expensive aftermarket shaft and not that they were fit into something that they could buy directly from the OEM.     

While your pro said they should have discounted the head, many OEMs have rules/agreements about discounting the current line of clubs which is why you will see that sales don't apply to certain brands.  

The CC pricing model has been the subject of numerous threads and debate.  Many agree with you that the services offered are not worth the price.  

[ChitownM2]

1 hour ago, JAFERD said:

Unique meaning a combination not offered by Titleist.  Otherwise, what’s the point of paying (much) higher than MSRP?  The only reason I made the purchase was the gift card offset.  

There are no unique options that are only available at CC.  All the shafts they have at CC are available from other retailers.  If you specifically wanted to be fit into something that wasn't available from Titleist then you probably needed to mention that, but I'm not sure how that would have been better for you.  Your fitter considered all the shafts he had on the wall and concluded that the TR black fit you best, what does it matter that it is available from Titleist directly?  Now if your fitter only pulled the TR off the wall and that's the only shaft you hit in your fitting then you have a different problem and I think you'd be justified in going back and telling them you want to see if there are other options. 

As far as paying over MSRP, you were going have to do that no matter where you bought from.  No manufacturer has a ventus TR included in their stock "no upcharge" offering.  

If CC charged you more than $794 then you should go back and ask them to match the price from Titleist.  Or local store did that for my father when he ordered a combo on irons that was available from the factory.

Edited May 18 by ChitownM2

[chisag]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

The job of a fitter is to find the head/shaft combination that works for you.   That could be a stock offering from an OEM or it could be an exotic shaft costing close to $1000 (just for the shaft).     Usually people complain that they were fit into some expensive aftermarket shaft and not that they were fit into something that they could buy directly from the OEM.     

While your pro said they should have discounted the head, many OEMs have rules/agreements about discounting the current line of clubs which is why you will see that sales don't apply to certain brands.  

The CC pricing model has been the subject of numerous threads and debate.  Many agree with you that the services offered are not worth the price.  

 

... I am right there with you. The fitter has one job and one job only. Based on your swing, what is the best head and shaft combo to produce your best performance. I had students with no clue about what shafts they played, what flex and what weight. A fitter should be prepared to help someone completely ignorant about equipment because again, that is their job. I do think those really good at what they do, will at a minimum have you hit stock shafts to see how they work for you. Easy enough to say "On average the stock Tensei is 2.1 yds shorter than the Ventus TR, dispersion is similar and the spin is 400rpms lower with the TR. Your longest drive was 3.8yds longer with the TR than the Tensei" and then let you decide if that is worth the upgrade.

... When I had a fitting with the Master Fitter for Callaway that took a full hour after booking a 30 minute fitting, he narrowed my choices down to 3. Tensei Blue AVX, Callaway RCH (a shocker for me) and the AD-IZ. He said I seemed most comfortable with the AD-IZ but it was a $300 upgrade and the numbers were very similar with all 3. 

... After so many years in business we all know CC will always try and get you into the most expensive upgrade option. Even when the stock shaft is very, very close in performance but rarely do they have anyone hit the stock shafts and my understanding is some locations don't even stock them. That's enough for me to avoid them unless like JAFERD I had a gift card that would cover the cost.

[Preeway]

4 hours ago, JAFERD said:

Unique meaning a combination not offered by Titleist.  Otherwise, what’s the point of paying (much) higher than MSRP?  The only reason I made the purchase was the gift card offset.  

I'm a little confused why you keep using the term, "unique combination". Understanding that the fitter has to make money for their service, I'd expect to pay standard MSRP, if not a little bit more. But never would expect to pay a discounted rate at the end of a lifecycle from a fitter. I got fitted into my JPX 921s at the end of their lifecycle right before the 923 line came out and paid MSRP. My fitter waves the fitting fee if you buy something but they make up for it by not discounting the price. I've only heard negative or neutral vibes pertaining to CC. great selection to work with but not personable has been my takeaway from what I've read from fellow spies. I agree with a couple of others that you have to go into a fitting knowing to some extent what it is you are looking for in very broad and general terms. You don't have to know the model or brand specifically, but at the very least be able to talk about what you want from your club(s) and/or what you don't want. Kind of like shopping for a car. You don't have to know the exact car you want but at least be able to say whether you want a car or truck, or minivan vs. sedan.

[JAFERD]

3 hours ago, ChitownM2 said:

There are no unique options that are only available at CC.  All the shafts they have at CC are available from other retailers.  If you specifically wanted to be fit into something that wasn't available from Titleist then you probably needed to mention that, but I'm not sure how that would have been better for you.  Your fitter considered all the shafts he had on the wall and concluded that the TR black fit you best, what does it matter that it is available from Titleist directly?  Now if your fitter only pulled the TR off the wall and that's the only shaft you hit in your fitting then you have a different problem and I think you'd be justified in going back and telling them you want to see if there are other options. 

As far as paying over MSRP, you were going have to do that no matter where you bought from.  No manufacturer has a ventus TR included in their stock "no upcharge" offering.  

If CC charged you more than $794 then you should go back and ask them to match the price from Titleist.  Or local store did that for my father when he ordered a combo on irons that was available from the factory.

He pulled the TR off the wall first.  To his credit or not, he then had me hit with a couple of stock shafts but they weren’t close to the TR.  

As for what I paid, it was way north of $794.  I know for a fact he had shafts to try that Titleist doesn’t offer on their website.  He discouraged me from trying them.  He would say, “That’ll just spin too much” or “that wouldn’t be a good fit.”  Maybe or maybe not.  But, I had the gift card - which was the X-factor.

4 hours ago, Josh Parker said:

What did they charge?  I just looked at Titleist website and with the Ventus TR they have the dang shaft marked up to $345 extra for a total of $794.  

$1050

[funkyjudge]

29 minutes ago, chisag said:

 

... I am right there with you. The fitter has one job and one job only. Based on your swing, what is the best head and shaft combo to produce your best performance. I had students with no clue about what shafts they played, what flex and what weight. A fitter should be prepared to help someone completely ignorant about equipment because again, that is their job. I do think those really good at what they do, will at a minimum have you hit stock shafts to see how they work for you. Easy enough to say "On average the stock Tensei is 2.1 yds shorter than the Ventus TR, dispersion is similar and the spin is 400rpms lower with the TR. Your longest drive was 3.8yds longer with the TR than the Tensei" and then let you decide if that is worth the upgrade.

... When I had a fitting with the Master Fitter for Callaway that took a full hour after booking a 30 minute fitting, he narrowed my choices down to 3. Tensei Blue AVX, Callaway RCH (a shocker for me) and the AD-IZ. He said I seemed most comfortable with the AD-IZ but it was a $300 upgrade and the numbers were very similar with all 3. 

... After so many years in business we all know CC will always try and get you into the most expensive upgrade option. Even when the stock shaft is very, very close in performance but rarely do they have anyone hit the stock shafts and my understanding is some locations don't even stock them. That's enough for me to avoid them unless like JAFERD I had a gift card that would cover the cost.

Absolutely true! A competent and ethical fitter will ALWAYS consider ALL viable options when filling a customer. This includes no-upcharge stock shaft offerings.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen, in a very thorough fitting, that the stock shaft was equal to or better than every upcharge shaft option that was tried during the fitting. I can guarantee you that these customers would not have walked out of Club Champion with the stock shaft!

[russtopherb]

If I picked up 20 yards off the tee, I’d be online crowing about it

[Preeway]

13 minutes ago, JAFERD said:

He pulled the TR off the wall first.  To his credit or not, he then had me hit with a couple of stock shafts but they weren’t close to the TR.  

As for what I paid, it was way north of $794.  I know for a fact he had shafts to try that Titleist doesn’t offer on their website.  He discouraged me from trying them.  He would say, “That’ll just spin too much” or “that wouldn’t be a good fit.”  Maybe or maybe not.  But, I had the gift card - which was the X-factor.

$1050

For that price, I would have expected something more than just the Ventus TR unless that price also includes the fitting fee. IMO, any reputable fitter will waive, or at least reduce, the fitting fee if you make a purchase that day.

[JAFERD]

3 minutes ago, russtopherb said:

If I picked up 20 yards off the tee, I’d be online crowing about it

No crowing until I see on course distance gains!

[JAFERD]

3 minutes ago, Preeway said:

For that price, I would have expected something more than just the Ventus TR unless that price also includes the fitting fee. IMO, any reputable fitter will waive, or at least reduce, the fitting fee if you make a purchase that day.

There’s a sucker born every minute and on Tuesday, it was me!

[JAFERD]

9 minutes ago, funkyjudge said:

Absolutely true! A competent and ethical fitter will ALWAYS consider ALL viable options when filling a customer. This includes no-upcharge stock shaft offerings.

I cannot tell you how many times I have seen, in a very thorough fitting, that the stock shaft was equal to or better than every upcharge shaft option that was tried during the fitting. I can guarantee you that these customers would not have walked out of Club Champion with the stock shaft!

In my circumstance, the stock shafts performed terribly.  In fact, about three weeks ago, my pro let me demo an AI Smoke with a stock Hazrdous shaft.  Off the first tee, I hit what felt like a solid shot.  I ended up walking far past my tee shot because I hadn’t realized how short I hit it!  Moral of the story, I knew I wasn’t leaving CC with a stock shaft.

[chisag]

38 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I agree with a couple of others that you have to go into a fitting knowing to some extent what it is you are looking for in very broad and general terms. You don't have to know the model or brand specifically, but at the very least be able to talk about what you want from your club(s) and/or what you don't want. Kind of like shopping for a car. You don't have to know the exact car you want but at least be able to say whether you want a car or truck, or minivan vs. sedan.

 

... While this would of course be best, it just isn't always applicable. I taught students that had zero idea why the were hitting the ball so poorly and no clue how to fix it or any knowledge of what they were doing with their swing. You would probably be shocked how many had "multiple swings" they used and couldn't settle on one of them. And the irony is in most cases they were pretty much the same swing but the student "felt" different using what they thought was a different swing. That's why they came to me in the first place. Same with club fittings. The more info the fitter has the better, but sometimes they just have a blank canvas. 

[Preeway]

2 minutes ago, chisag said:

... While this would of course be best, it just isn't always applicable. I taught students that had zero idea why the were hitting the ball so poorly and no clue how to fix it or any knowledge of what they were doing with their swing. You would probably be shocked how many had "multiple swings" they used and couldn't settle on one of them. And the irony is in most cases they were pretty much the same swing but the student "felt" different using what they thought was a different swing. That's why they came to me in the first place. Same with club fittings. The more info the fitter has the better, but sometimes they just have a blank canvas. 

I totally get this. But they can still tell you up front if they hit a slice or a hook, or hit the ball high or low. The more they can share at the beginning the better. When I got fitted into my Mizunos I hadn't bought new cubs since 1990. I truly had no idea what clubs were better than others or what brand I wanted to try. I was able to say how far I hit my then 7-iron and that I wanted to be able to hit 7i-PW with some modicum of stopping power. That was enough for him to know where to start and we worked from there. Still find myself at times wondering if I should have went with the Apex Pros instead of the 921 Tours. Both were great.

[Preeway]

14 minutes ago, JAFERD said:

There’s a sucker born every minute and on Tuesday, it was me!

Glad you shared your experience though. Just affirms my reluctance to ever go to a CC except as a last resort.

[chisag]

5 minutes ago, Preeway said:

I totally get this. But they can still tell you up front if they hit a slice or a hook, or hit the ball high or low. The more they can share at the beginning the better.

 

... Well Pree your index is listed at a 2.2 so of course you know.   You should go to a free fitting from an OEM at a golf course and watch for a couple hours and you will see more than a few that hit it both high and low or hooks and slices along with some whiffs. You just have to remember some are clueless and not very good golfers and that is exactly why they are taking a lesson or getting fit (usually at the suggestion of a knowledgeable player). Obviously we are all members of a golf form and our knowledge is far greater than the average golfer. 

... Again, I can't tell you how many times I have asked someone I was paired up with what shaft  and what flex they were playing and they had absolutely no clue. 

[funkyjudge]

31 minutes ago, chisag said:

.. Again, I can't tell you how many times I have asked someone I was paired up with what shaft  and what flex they were playing and they had absolutely no clue. 

Yep; their answer is usually, "I don't know, it's whatever came in the club".

[Josh Parker]

5 hours ago, JAFERD said:

He pulled the TR off the wall first.  To his credit or not, he then had me hit with a couple of stock shafts but they weren’t close to the TR.  

As for what I paid, it was way north of $794.  I know for a fact he had shafts to try that Titleist doesn’t offer on their website.  He discouraged me from trying them.  He would say, “That’ll just spin too much” or “that wouldn’t be a good fit.”  Maybe or maybe not.  But, I had the gift card - which was the X-factor.

$1050

Ouch!  Yeah I don't agree with the overcharge. 

[revkev]

Interesting thread - the op went because of the gift card - so effectively your fitting was free. 
 

Most OEMs offer enough “stock” offerings for their drivers that the best fit is there for most golfers. The engineering department does know what shafts will work best with their heads, I think. 
 

To me it’s not surprising that you ended up in a “stock” offering. Would you have found that head/shaft/length combo on your own?  Would you have even tried it?  
 

I think those are the questions to ask. 
 

It will be interesting to see what happens on the course.  

[RetiredBoomer]

1 hour ago, revkev said:

Interesting thread - the op went because of the gift card - so effectively your fitting was free. 
 

Most OEMs offer enough “stock” offerings for their drivers that the best fit is there for most golfers. The engineering department does know what shafts will work best with their heads, I think. 
 

To me it’s not surprising that you ended up in a “stock” offering. Would you have found that head/shaft/length combo on your own?  Would you have even tried it?  
 

I think those are the questions to ask. 
 

It will be interesting to see what happens on the course.  

I haven't been fitted for clubs since the days we bought them in the on-course pro shop.
I know what lie angles I need, so I just buy equipment from the major online websites like TGW etc..   I think Edwin Watts was the first one back then,.

I have swung other people's clubs, however, including some with very expensive custom fitted shafts.   Usually, I find them too tip stiff and they make it hard to get the ball up in the air quickly.
They are less torquey and hit straight, however.  

Also, the clubs usually feel a tad too long, and thus too upright as well, although that's not the shaft's fault.

The stock R-Flex graphite shaft offering on everything seems to have enough low shaft kick to launch the ball, and isn't excessively torquey although more than the premium shafts are.

They usually just seem to work well for me.
This in no way, however, is meant to put down custom fitting.
I just think that a custom fitter who wasn't trying to drain the last cent out of me might very well fit me with a shaft not unlike the stock one.  They seem to be pretty good.

I DO want my preferred grip model on every non-putter club, but everybody offers that, just about.

 

 

Edited May 19 by RetiredBoomer

[GolfSpy_APH]

On 5/18/2024 at 3:01 PM, JAFERD said:

Though I play 100’ish rounds per year, most clubs in my bag have a 3-5 year life cycle -including my wedges (more on that in a different day).  So I’m not what some around here call a “club ho” - love that term BTW.  
My wife was gifted a sizable gift-card to Club Champion and she generously passed it to me.  I decided to replace my PXG Gen4 driver.  My fitting took place 4 days ago and went well.  I’m the new owner of a Titliest TSR3 head matched with a Ventus TR (whatever that means…) Black 6S shaft and a stock grip.  
I’m thrilled to have picked up 20 yards of distance with my new driver but feel icy towards using Club Champion again.  

Here’s my beef:

1. In hindsight, I realized my fitter asked me to try head and shaft combos that I could have demoed anywhere else.  5 heads and 5 shafts total.  Why is that pertinent?  The markup on Club Champion services!  What’s the point of paying the markup if the possibility of a unique head/shaft combination is 0%?  I could have saved $250 getting fit on my club’s driving range.  
 

2. My fitter didn’t inform me that Titleist is replacing TSR with new drivers in 2-3 months.  This would have been nice to know.  Not sure it would have swayed my decision to buy now but more info is better.  

Ahhh, I feel better now!
 

 

Were there other options and combos that were similar in performance as the combo you purchased?

TR isn't a shaft you can find everywhere fwiw