Putter fitting with Ping

[Slap]

I think this is a good spot to talk about my recent putter fitting with Ping. It's not a review per say just some notes on my experience if anyone is interested.

 

I originally set up a fitting with evnroll towards the end of September but I had to cancel that trip for unfortunate reasons and that reason led me to Scottsdale, AZ. I was able to schedule a putter fitting with enough advanced time that it all worked out fine time wise. Friday September the 7th, 12:45PM at the Westin Kierland Golf Club was good enough for me. The heat was on but growing up in the chihuahuan desert had me prepared. I arrived an hour early and set up my girlfriend with a lunch at the grill and started to practice on the adjacent greens. After I practiced, checked in with the fitters and practiced some more, Khris came up and introduced himself.

 

Khris wanted to know what my troubles were and I just told him I'm inconsistent with my putting. I'm not sure if I push or pull puts to be honest with you. How can one know if most putts slope left or right? What I did know is that distance control has become very difficult for me. I game a Ping ketsch mid with a straight stroke shaft and mentioned that I thought the head was too heavy for me to judge distance. I bought it blind because I read too much MGS without ever getting fit. I also tried the Tommy Armour impact series #3 and the distance control was even worse and without the TR tech I was lost. I mentioned to him that I use the craddle and ping app. The app usually suggested a slight arc stroke for me. 

 

He watched me put and told me I didn't have a bad stroke. He thought what I was doing was fine. I told him I like my putter and maybe just a shaft change is all I need. I told him that I like the alignment aids on the Ketsch. He brought the craddle, I putted with it and arrived at the same suggestions the app usually gives me. Turns out I probably do push just a bit. Playing a straight when you should be slight arc will do that they told me. So he then brought out some flat sticks with slight arcs and he chose the Vault 2.0 ketsch and Anser. He also included the Sigma G Piper 3, D66 and Tess. One of the Craz-E's came out too. I'm probably missing one or two but this is all I can remember. I was curious about the Ketsch B too so he brought that out.

 

I started with the vault Ketsch and the slight arc shaft gave me better results but I kept trying others. After trying some blades like the Ketsch B and D66, I mentioned that blades aren't doing it for me and that I needed some form of a mallet. We both agreed that the mid mallets gave me the right feel. The Piper 3 and the Vault 2.0 Ketsch seemed to work the best but the Piper 3 kept rolling the best. Shots were inside 1 foot pretty consistently or even better kept dropping. During this process another fitter came by and he helped Khris dial in my specs based on my app recommendations and what he was seeing. He did the ball drop test from my right eye and I set up behind the ball. They didn't measure anything, just asked what I play length wise and if I like it. I do like the standard 35" putter. I have played 35.5 and this is too tall. 34s make me uncomfortable. We also discussed grips and I really don't like super stroke type grips. I enjoy the cadence grip so they said a PP58 midsize is what I should order. I just hope the added weight doesn't throw the results off too much. All the putters had the lightweight SS grips. I don't like the V shape of the PP60.  

 

It came down to two putters for me. I can't remember the other one (Tess?) but the Piper 3 just felt right and I couldn't argue with the results. It felt like the Tess would get me into trouble with the lower MOI but I holed just as many with it. The Piper 3 was somewhere in the middle of the Ketsch and Tess in terms of feel. They did a great job of not pushing what they wanted to sell me. The Sigma G line is on the way out but they still recommended it for me. Its seems like that insert is going to help me out a great deal with distance control. Reflecting on this session now, I came away with exactly what I needed. Lighter feeling head, better distance control, and a slight arc/ toe hang putter.

 

This fitting was not a data driven 2 hour session but I think Ping did a great job of finding something right for me. I ended up going to 2nd swing and trading in the ketsch mid and ordering the Sigma G Piper 3 red dot 1 degree weak at standard length with PP58 mid size grip.

 

If you want a data driven session this is probably not the place for you. I don't know maybe they do have more measurements or maybe they got the sense I knew what I wanted or needed. May be they thought I sucked and I didn't need to over analyze my swing. My long hair could give me a don't care perception I suppose. But now the worst part is here. I have a new putter that won't arrive into October and its killing me. Overall I'm satisfied with the fitting I just wish I had my damn putter. 

[gaussman1]

I think this is a good spot to talk about my recent putter fitting with Ping. It's not a review per say just some notes on my experience if anyone is interested.

 

I originally set up a fitting with evnroll towards the end of September but I had to cancel that trip for unfortunate reasons and that reason led me to Scottsdale, AZ. I was able to schedule a putter fitting with enough advanced time that it all worked out fine time wise. Friday September the 7th, 12:45PM at the Westin Kierland Golf Club was good enough for me. The heat was on but growing up in the chihuahuan desert had me prepared. I arrived an hour early and set up my girlfriend with a lunch at the grill and started to practice on the adjacent greens. After I practiced, checked in with the fitters and practiced some more, Khris came up and introduced himself.

 

Khris wanted to know what my troubles were and I just told him I'm inconsistent with my putting. I'm not sure if I push or pull puts to be honest with you. How can one know if most putts slope left or right? What I did know is that distance control has become very difficult for me. I game a Ping ketsch mid with a straight stroke shaft and mentioned that I thought the head was too heavy for me to judge distance. I bought it blind because I read too much MGS without ever getting fit. I also tried the Tommy Armour impact series #3 and the distance control was even worse and without the TR tech I was lost. I mentioned to him that I use the craddle and ping app. The app usually suggested a slight arc stroke for me.

 

He watched me put and told me I didn't have a bad stroke. He thought what I was doing was fine. I told him I like my putter and maybe just a shaft change is all I need. I told him that I like the alignment aids on the Ketsch. He brought the craddle, I putted with it and arrived at the same suggestions the app usually gives me. Turns out I probably do push just a bit. Playing a straight when you should be slight arc will do that they told me. So he then brought out some flat sticks with slight arcs and he chose the Vault 2.0 ketsch and Anser. He also included the Sigma G Piper 3, D66 and Tess. One of the Craz-E's came out too. I'm probably missing one or two but this is all I can remember. I was curious about the Ketsch B too so he brought that out.

 

I started with the vault Ketsch and the slight arc shaft gave me better results but I kept trying others. After trying some blades like the Ketsch B and D66, I mentioned that blades aren't doing it for me and that I needed some form of a mallet. We both agreed that the mid mallets gave me the right feel. The Piper 3 and the Vault 2.0 Ketsch seemed to work the best but the Piper 3 kept rolling the best. Shots were inside 1 foot pretty consistently or even better kept dropping. During this process another fitter came by and he helped Khris dial in my specs based on my app recommendations and what he was seeing. He did the ball drop test from my right eye and I set up behind the ball. They didn't measure anything, just asked what I play length wise and if I like it. I do like the standard 35" putter. I have played 35.5 and this is too tall. 34s make me uncomfortable. We also discussed grips and I really don't like super stroke type grips. I enjoy the cadence grip so they said a PP58 midsize is what I should order. I just hope the added weight doesn't throw the results off too much. All the putters had the lightweight SS grips. I don't like the V shape of the PP60.

 

It came down to two putters for me. I can't remember the other one (Tess?) but the Piper 3 just felt right and I couldn't argue with the results. It felt like the Tess would get me into trouble with the lower MOI but I holed just as many with it. The Piper 3 was somewhere in the middle of the Ketsch and Tess in terms of feel. They did a great job of not pushing what they wanted to sell me. The Sigma G line is on the way out but they still recommended it for me. Its seems like that insert is going to help me out a great deal with distance control. Reflecting on this session now, I came away with exactly what I needed. Lighter feeling head, better distance control, and a slight arc/ toe hang putter.

 

This fitting was not a data driven 2 hour session but I think Ping did a great job of finding something right for me. I ended up going to 2nd swing and trading in the ketsch mid and ordering the Sigma G Piper 3 red dot 1 degree weak at standard length with PP58 mid size grip.

 

If you want a data driven session this is probably not the place for you. I don't know maybe they do have more measurements or maybe they got the sense I knew what I wanted or needed. May be they thought I sucked and I didn't need to over analyze my swing. My long hair could give me a don't care perception I suppose. But now the worst part is here. I have a new putter that won't arrive into October and its killing me. Overall I'm satisfied with the fitting I just wish I had my damn putter.

Was this a fitting with Ping guys or was it just a Ping fitting? I know Kierland has a HotStixx or CoolClubs out there on site. Just curious why a Ping fitting wouldn't be at Ping HQ

[Slap]

Was this a fitting with Ping guys or was it just a Ping fitting?

I called Ping to schedule and that is where they set me up. The fitters said they are there Tuesday through Friday. I don't think they do driver fittings there though.

[gaussman1]

I called Ping to schedule and that is where they set me up. The fitters said they are there Tuesday through Friday. I don't think they do driver fittings there though.

Huh. Ok that's interesting. I didn't know they were doing them off site

[MaxEntropy]

OK, so it's not a Ping putter fitting, or any kind of a fitting, but I was playing around with the Ping app this evening. I hit 20 putts and the results were pretty consistent. Shocking considering I don't have a cradle and duct tape was part of the equation of how I had my wife's iPhone mounted to my putter (shhh, she doesn't know). See attached screen cap. Calling @cnosil or any other putting gurus. Can you help explain some of this? I get most of it, but what about the closing angle? I have no frame of reference for what that means in terms of my stroke and what type of putter may be a decent fit for me.

[romeopapazulu]

OK, so it's not a Ping putter fitting, or any kind of a fitting, but I was playing around with the Ping app this evening. I hit 20 putts and the results were pretty consistent. Shocking considering I don't have a cradle and duct tape was part of the equation of how I had my wife's iPhone mounted to my putter (shhh, she doesn't know). See attached screen cap. Calling [mention=15174]cnosil[/mention] or any other putting gurus. Can you help explain some of this? I get most of it, but what about the closing angle? I have no frame of reference for what that means in terms of my stroke and what type of putter may be a decent fit for me.

Disclaimer: not a guru.

Closing angle should be the amount if arc in the swing. A true straight back straight through would be 0. Not sure how big a number would show up here to qualify as strong arc.

Lie angle seems a bit strange. I thought a standard lie for a putter is around 70, so I would expect around 20 deg from vertical.

Having hands back at impact would indicate that you should use a low lofted putter or you will be popping the ball up and having inconsistent distance or will bounce the ball through some of the break.

Disclaimer 2: not a guru

Sent from my SM-A600A using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[romeopapazulu]

OK, so it's not a Ping putter fitting, or any kind of a fitting, but I was playing around with the Ping app this evening. I hit 20 putts and the results were pretty consistent. Shocking considering I don't have a cradle and duct tape was part of the equation of how I had my wife's iPhone mounted to my putter (shhh, she doesn't know). See attached screen cap. Calling [mention=15174]cnosil[/mention] or any other putting gurus. Can you help explain some of this? I get most of it, but what about the closing angle? I have no frame of reference for what that means in terms of my stroke and what type of putter may be a decent fit for me.

The lie angle could be due to the method of mounting. I think most of these can only be measured relative to address because it doesn't know where you are aiming.

Sent from my SM-A600A using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[MaxEntropy]

Just now, romeopapazulu said:

Disclaimer: not a guru.

Closing angle should be the amount if arc in the swing. A true straight back straight through would be 0. Not sure how big a number would show up here to qualify as strong arc.

Lie angle seems a bit strange. I thought a standard lie for a putter is around 70, so I would expect around 20 deg from vertical.

Having hands back at impact would indicate that you should use a low lofted putter or you will be popping the ball up and having inconsistent distance or will bounce the ball through some of the break.

Disclaimer 2: not a guru

Sent from my SM-A600A using MyGolfSpy mobile app
 

Thanks. I might have to try to get a picture at address. I like my eyes over the ball and my hands pretty close to directly below my shoulders, so the heel may actually be somewhat raised, but not 100% certain. 

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, MaxEntropy said:

OK, so it's not a Ping putter fitting, or any kind of a fitting, but I was playing around with the Ping app this evening. I hit 20 putts and the results were pretty consistent. Shocking considering I don't have a cradle and duct tape was part of the equation of how I had my wife's iPhone mounted to my putter (shhh, she doesn't know). See attached screen cap. Calling @cnosil or any other putting gurus. Can you help explain some of this? I get most of it, but what about the closing angle? I have no frame of reference for what that means in terms of my stroke and what type of putter may be a decent fit for me.

I am not and expert,  but do have some understanding of the numbers.   

Closing Angle is how much the putter is rotating from the start of the forward swing to impact.  Per information I found about the measurement you are about average.  Slight arc means you want to get a putter with some toe hang,  my guess would be more than 30* but not totally toe down.   Tempo  isn't that big of a concern unless you are too fast or too slow but you are in the normal range.  You have to have your putter pretty vertical at impact so either you setup this way or raise your hands at impact.  My guess is you are vertical through your whole stroke.  

The big numbers to look at are shaft lean and the face at impact.  The first question is why is your shaft leaning back?   Do you play the ball slightly forward and hit the ball on the up swing?   This isn't a bad thing if you do it consistently,  it would just mean that you may need lower loft on your putter.   The -1.0 at impact means the ball is starting off heading left at impact.  Since the face angle has about 85% influence on direction you would need a pretty strong in to out stroke to start the ball on its intended line.  1* means you miss a 10 foot straight putt.  

So if I am guessing correctly based on the numbers,  you miss left and probably short (or at least struggle with distance control).   You have a couple of options,  move the ball back in your stance a little;  this will effectively result in the face being open a bit more at impact and less back shaft lean.   If you want a new putter,  you want something with more toe hang,  maybe in the 45* range and with less loft.  If you like mallets,  try one with the slant neck.  

Just my thoughts.  Basically with the iPing,  you can make some adjustments and roll putts and see how the adjustments influence the results.  

[txgolfjunkie]

Think of closing angle as in the severity of the arc your putter is taking just prior to impact. The closer to 0*, the more straight back/straight through you are with your stroke.

 

I bought a cheap iPhone case and a rubber vise grip for a shaft and stuck then together with some 3M tape to make my own cradle. Case was $7 on Amazon and the shaft clamp was $3.

 

The ping app is better than nothing but if you have the $$ and have a SAM fitting/other high tech putter fitting option nearby, do yourself a favor and go get fit. I did both within a few days of one another and found the ping app was consistent with closing angle, tempo and lie angle, but it was off on shaft lean and impact angle compared to the SAM.

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using MyGolfSpy

 

[romeopapazulu]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

I am not and expert,  but do have some understanding of the numbers.    

The big numbers to look at are shaft lean and the face at impact.  The first question is why is your shaft leaning back?   Do you play the ball slightly forward and hit the ball on the up swing?   This isn't a bad thing if you do it consistently,  it would just mean that you may need lower loft on your putter.   The -1.0 at impact means the ball is starting off heading left at impact.  Since the face angle has about 85% influence on direction you would need a pretty strong in to out stroke to start the ball on its intended line.  1* means you miss a 10 foot straight putt.  

Perhaps, but the -1.0 deg could be a compensation for lining up to the right.  So it may be necessary to get the putt rolling on line.  Here is one of the ways a SAM fitting could be more helpful, as a fitter should have the tools to check where the face is actually aiming before the whole stroke starts.

[MaxEntropy]

9 hours ago, cnosil said:

So if I am guessing correctly based on the numbers,  you miss left and probably short (or at least struggle with distance control)

Nailed it. Over the years I've tried left hand low and the claw to try to help with line and distance control. Left hand low felt so foreign to me, I never could get used to it. I felt the claw helped with starting the ball more on line, but distance control was even worse, especially on longer putts. I think part of the reason I have gone so upright with the shaft is I feel like it minimizes the pull a bit - whether it does or not is a different issue.

I also tried @chisag's drill with the tee in the grip and there is very little wrist action - the tee stayed pretty much centered on my torso. If you combine that with the fact that the putter head is centered on my stance with the ball a little forward and I likely am catching the ball a bit on the upswing.

Both of the putters I use with any regularity are face-balanced. Do you think having face-balanced putters might contribute to the tendency to pull?

9 hours ago, txgolfjunkie said:

The ping app is better than nothing

Which is precisely why I wanted to play around with it. I had no clue about my stroke. I knew tempo was OK, just from counting, but all the other things were a mystery. I've always felt like I was more straight back-straight through. Obviously not.

Thanks for the feedback, guys. One of my goals for this year is to putt more consistently as I am very streaky. One round will be 28-30 putts, the next 40. Over the course of last season, I averaged 1.9 putts per hole, which I was OK with, but would like to get it to 1.6 or 1.7 if possible. Obviously a lot of that is dependent on my approach and short games, but there is a lot of room to improve my putting.

[CarlH]

1 hour ago, MaxEntropy said:

 

Both of the putters I use with any regularity are face-balanced. Do you think having face-balanced putters might contribute to the tendency to pull?

 

Definitely!  A face balanced putter is designed for a straight back and through swing.  You clearly putt with an arc.  A toe hang putter is designed to help square the club face at impact, something that you do not appear to be doing.  I would suggest experimenting with a few different toe heavy putters to find what feels and performs better for you.  The more one arcs their swing, the more toe hang is needed to compensate.  Try one that has about 20-30 degrees of toe hang for starters.

[txgolfjunkie]

A few putters to test out with modest toe hang for a slight arc:

TaylorMade Spiders with a slant neck.

Odyssey 7 or 2-Ball Fang with slant neck.

Evnroll (ER2) usually has about 22-28* toe hang.

Ping Arna

Cleveland Huntington Beach Soft 11

 

 

[cnosil]

Think of closing angle as in the severity of the arc your putter is taking just prior to impact. The closer to 0*, the more straight back/straight through you are with your stroke.

With the Ping app the closing angle is about rotation and not the arc the putter travels on.

Perhaps, but the -1.0 deg could be a compensation for lining up to the right.  So it may be necessary to get the putt rolling on line.  Here is one of the ways a SAM fitting could be more helpful, as a fitter should have the tools to check where the face is actually aiming before the whole stroke starts.

I personally don’t focus on aim unless aim is all over the place. If a player consistently aims at the same place why change that, give them a putter that rotated back to the right impact location.

[cnosil]

@MaxEntropy I would suggest something with toe hang. Toe hang will slow the rotation down to help keep the putter open and help correct the left miss.

Based on your description ball position doesn’t sound bad. Where are you pointing the putter shaft at setup. Right eyed dominant players tend to lean it back and left eye dominant tend to forward press. Setup facing a mirror or have someone check for you.

I suggest you start to experiment with different putters. When trying putters, setup a gate and see if you can roll the ball through the gate. This will help you determine what might or might not work. Make note of thinks like offset, weight, and toe hang.