Optimising Clubhead Speed - Is this the real way?

[DaveP043]

8 hours ago, Dave Tutelman said:

OMG, could we possibly be making this any more complicated? If you're competing at the professional level, either golf or long drive, then this level of detail is probably warranted.

Even for those competing at the very top levels, the player doesn't need to know very much of this.  Their instructors really should, but its the job of the instructor to translate all  of this gobbledegook into feels and images and drills for the player to utilize.

[Dave Tutelman]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

Even for those competing at the very top levels, the player doesn't need to know very much of this.  Their instructors really should, but its the job of the instructor to translate all  of this gobbledegook into feels and images and drills for the player to utilize.

Absolutely correct! No argument here.

[RickyBobby_PR]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Even for those competing at the very top levels, the player doesn't need to know very much of this.  Their instructors really should, but its the job of the instructor to translate all  of this gobbledegook into feels and images and drills for the player to utilize.

Yep, and for the average golfer many of the coaches/instructors they go to also understand all this to different levels.

What they all do is use what they know to watch the golfers swing and what movement pattern isn’t correct.

Reading/learning it and not being able to know how to apply it to what is seen in pros swings or one’s own is imo time not well spent 

[Dave Tutelman]

22 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Yep, and for the average golfer many of the coaches/instructors they go to also understand all this to different levels.

What they all do is use what they know to watch the golfers swing and what movement pattern isn’t correct.

Reading/learning it and not being able to know how to apply it to what is seen in pros swings or one’s own is imo time not well spent 

I agree, but you're a bit of an optimist here. I don't think many instructors understand the biomechanics being discussed here. A bunch do, but I'll bet that's not even half of professional golf instructors. And if you don't know the physics and biomechanics, you're at a disadvantage when it comes to recommending what part of a pro's swing to copy, and how to copy it.

Case in point! A few years ago, the golf instruction world noticed that Rory McIlroy's hips reversed direction briefly at some point in his downswing. Rory was undeniably the best driver at that time. So lots of instructors tried to understand how to make that move and teach it to their students. (Sometimes this was driven by instructors. More often the students saw some TV analyst's video commentary on Rory's swing and said to the instructor, "I want to get better. Teach me this." But the instructor did try, so it's on them too.) If you know physics, it is not hard to figure out that the reversal of hip motion is not something you do; it happens as a side effect of something else in the swing. That something else is Rory's delaying a strong torso release until most of the energy of his hip release has been expended. The hip reversal is an "equal and opposite reaction" to the torso release. I was appalled at the amount of time it took for the instruction community to absorb this fact, so obvious if you know something about biomechanics. 

[Wildthing]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

Even for those competing at the very top levels, the player doesn't need to know very much of this.  Their instructors really should, but its the job of the instructor to translate all  of this gobbledegook into feels and images and drills for the player to utilize.

 

35 minutes ago, Dave Tutelman said:

Absolutely correct! No argument here.

As I said in my first post when I started this thread:

"This is again for those mainly interested in the biomechanics of the golf swing (ie. what is going on rather than how). Just thought it might interest others who are trying to figure out what many of the pros are doing to drive that ball 300+ yards."

 

 

[Wildthing]

57 minutes ago, Dave Tutelman said:

I agree, but you're a bit of an optimist here. I don't think many instructors understand the biomechanics being discussed here. A bunch do, but I'll bet that's not even half of professional golf instructors. And if you don't know the physics and biomechanics, you're at a disadvantage when it comes to recommending what part of a pro's swing to copy, and how to copy it.

Case in point! A few years ago, the golf instruction world noticed that Rory McIlroy's hips reversed direction briefly at some point in his downswing. Rory was undeniably the best driver at that time. So lots of instructors tried to understand how to make that move and teach it to their students. (Sometimes this was driven by instructors. More often the students saw some TV analyst's video commentary on Rory's swing and said to the instructor, "I want to get better. Teach me this." But the instructor did try, so it's on them too.) If you know physics, it is not hard to figure out that the reversal of hip motion is not something you do; it happens as a side effect of something else in the swing. That something else is Rory's delaying a strong torso release until most of the energy of his hip release has been expended. The hip reversal is an "equal and opposite reaction" to the torso release. I was appalled at the amount of time it took for the instruction community to absorb this fact, so obvious if you know something about biomechanics. 

Personally, I like to know the biomechanics going on in pro golfers as it provides me with a better overall perception of what is happening and 'what not to do' (which I've mentioned before such as applying too much wrist torque with my trail hand or indirectly via a straightening of my trail arm).

Didn't Rory's reversed hip rotation happen post impact? I don't understand why students/instructors would be interested in that move.

Dr Phil Cheetham seems to have an alternative theory for Rory's reverse rotation  (see video below from 58:05 - 1:00:52.

 

With regards the less curved hand path in the early downswing , it was mentioned on Dave Tutelman's  website  (see below extract) so I thought it was worthwhile mentioning it as a means of optimising clubhead speed.  

Wouldn't a more curved hand path in the early downswing tend to cause a net force across the grip (ie. in front of the clubs COM) causing a positive 'In Plane MOF' that would release the club early (ie. uncocking of lead wrist)?

Yet many pro-golfers (not all) do seem to create that less curved hand path from P4-P5  (top of backswing ->lead arm horizontal in downswing), which I'm assuming, helps retain the wrist cock without having to 'hold' lag with stiffer wrists.

In Dr Sasho MacKenzie's videos and on Dr Kwon's website, they show a net force across the club in the early downswing away from target that also helps to retain lag (ie. a negative 'In Plane MOF'), but I'm finding that difficult to understand because:

1. Golfers are shifting their chest/pelvis targetward during the early downswing.

2. Golfers are also rotating their upper torso and bringing their arms down at the same time. 

How on earth are they able to apply a net force via their hands on the grip that is generally directed away from the target? I can only assume that they are using their trail arm to push on the club away from target at the same time as points 1 and 2 are happening. But trying to straighten the trail arm in the early downswing away from target, while the lead arm is being pulled towards the target (ie. by sway and rotation of lower and upper body) will surely create a positive torque on the club (ie. early release- like image below).

It doesn't make sense (yet).

 

 

 

 

You can see that the scratch golfer has a relatively straight path (very little curvature) in the blue curve, and a lot more curvature in the red curve. The 18-handicapper is just the opposite -- much more curvature early in the downswing than near impact.

Why does this matter? This is another way of delaying centrifugal release until very late in the downswing, and emphasizing it late for maximum clubhead speed. You don't have to use retarding wrist torque to keep the clubhead lag; just minimize the path curvature early and maximize the curvature late.

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Dave Tutelman said:

I agree, but you're a bit of an optimist here. I don't think many instructors understand the biomechanics being discussed here. A bunch do, but I'll bet that's not even half of professional golf instructors. And if you don't know the physics and biomechanics, you're at a disadvantage when it comes to recommending what part of a pro's swing to copy, and how to copy it.

Maybe a little but I’m seeing more and more instructors at least getting into some of the basics and there’s a lot more collaboration of coaches well at least before covid where they put on coaches seminars and have coaches come in and present in various topics to the other coaches in attendance and biomechanics is usually one of the topics

[Wildthing]

Here are the 2 possible scenarios for creating a negative 'In Plane MOF' that would tend to retard the uncocking of the lead wrist until release later to optimise clubhead speed closer to ball (ie. limit the occurrence of an early casting action where clubhead speed peaks too early in the downswing). If it was just solely a lead arm dominant downswing action, I cannot understand how the golfer could retain lag until later in the downswing. I think it's more likely that release will start happening immediately in the downswing (like a Bobby Jones type of swing). 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

On 8/1/2022 at 12:24 PM, Wildthing said:

I'm more interested in trying to fathom what pro golfers do what they do. 

 

 

 

 

57 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Personally, I like to know the biomechanics going on in pro golfers as it provides me with a better overall perception of what is happening and 'what not to do' (which I've mentioned before such as applying too much wrist torque with my trail hand or indirectly via a straightening of my trail arm).

So what is it. Are you just learning to learn as the first post quoted or are you learning to apply it to you and your swing?

if you are trying to apply it to your swing then my initial question earlier still applies, what improvements have been made in your swing, ball speed, swing speed, etc?

Why does it matter how much a pro does of anything matte to your swing. Unless you are moving in the exact same pattern how much torque or forces or speed is only relevant to them. they all move differently and have different hand, arm, wrist, leg action from each other and one of them trying to match what another is doing is going to cause them problems. Rory saw what Bryson was doing with distance and he changed his swing up chasing distance and it cost him accuracy and being in contention on a regular basis.

You don’t have any of the tools at your disposal to measure any of what Sasho or anyone else doing these studies have so how can you tell if you are at, above, below the amount they have and do you have the understanding of what to change in your swing to achieve it/fix it?

Reading it is one thin and posting what they are saying is one things, understanding it and being able to apply is it a whole different ball game, so far I don’t recall a post where you’ve actually been able to show that 

[Wildthing]

47 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

So what is it. Are you just learning to learn as the first post quoted or are you learning to apply it to you and your swing?

if you are trying to apply it to your swing then my initial question earlier still applies, what improvements have been made in your swing, ball speed, swing speed, etc?

Why does it matter how much a pro does of anything matte to your swing. Unless you are moving in the exact same pattern how much torque or forces or speed is only relevant to them. they all move differently and have different hand, arm, wrist, leg action from each other and one of them trying to match what another is doing is going to cause them problems. Rory saw what Bryson was doing with distance and he changed his swing up chasing distance and it cost him accuracy and being in contention on a regular basis.

You don’t have any of the tools at your disposal to measure any of what Sasho or anyone else doing these studies have so how can you tell if you are at, above, below the amount they have and do you have the understanding of what to change in your swing to achieve it/fix it?

Reading it is one thin and posting what they are saying is one things, understanding it and being able to apply is it a whole different ball game, so far I don’t recall a post where you’ve actually been able to show that 

More to do with learning (ie. a hobby) but as I've mentioned several times before. But I was able to fix a problem by realising that I was using my trail arm in too dominant a manner which fixed my dispersion (a few snap hooks) during my game.  I wouldn't have realised that it was a problem if I wasn't aware of the deleterious effects of applying active torque via the wrists in the downswing.

"Why does it matter how much a pro does of anything matte to your swing"

I can't swing like a pro, but I'd like to learn what they are doing and understand any commonalities in what they do.

" Unless you are moving in the exact same pattern how much torque or forces or speed is only relevant to them."

I can't swing like a pro as I've said above and I'm not copying anyone, just getting a better general perception of the biomechanics involved.  I'm sure they have their unique biomechanics but there may be certain commonalities in what they do. Isn't that worth knowing?

"Rory saw what Bryson was doing with distance and he changed his swing up chasing distance and it cost him accuracy and being in contention on a regular basis."

Did Rory say he was trying to copy Bryson? First time I've heard but I'm not that interested to be honest.

"You don’t have any of the tools at your disposal to measure any of what Sasho or anyone else doing these studies have so how can you tell if you are at, above, below the amount they have and do you have the understanding of what to change in your swing to achieve it/fix it?"

I'm not learning how to swing like a pro (I can't do it) but I'm more aware of 'what not to do'.

"Reading it is one thin and posting what they are saying is one things, understanding it and being able to apply is it a whole different ball game, so far I don’t recall a post where you’ve actually been able to show that"

 I've just said I can't swing like a pro and that I'm learning biomechanics as a hobby to try and understand what commonalities are in pro swings. What exactly do you want me to show?

 

 

 

 

Edited August 2, 2022 by Wildthing

[Dave Tutelman]

2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Personally, I like to know the biomechanics going on in pro golfers as it provides me with a better overall perception of what is happening and 'what not to do' (which I've mentioned before such as applying too much wrist torque with my trail hand or indirectly with a straightening of my trail arm).

Didn't Rory's reversed hip rotation happen post impact? I don't understand why students/instructors would be interested in that move.

Dr Phil Cheetham seems to have an alternative theory for Rory's reverse rotation  (see video below from 58:05 - 1:00:52.

 

 

 

A couple of different issues here. Let me deal with the Rory hip reversal in this response and the early downswing behavior separately.

That's a couple of good observations, WildThing. Phil uses nothing but the best in motion capture, so I trust his pronouncements about kinematics. I also looked at a bunch of Rory McIlroy swings to check on some of his points, and he is certainly right that the hip reversal occurs clearly after impact. Even in the swings where the hips don't reverse, their minimum forward angular velocity is about the same place that the hip reversal was on other swings. So you're absolutely right to call me out on that. When it happens, it happens after impact.

Why would students/instructors care about it, if it happens after impact? Don't know. But it's a fact that I saw a number of YouTube videos at that time discussing how to imitate Rory's hip reversal. And whether reaction torque is all of it or shares the cause with leg drive, trying to accomplish your own hip reversal does not sound like a good idea. But historically, golf instruction has been, "Look at what the greats do, and do it like them." I have received enough of those lessons myself, which made no sense to me even then.

Now let's look at his explanation of why the reversal, in response to John Dunigan. Phil starts by saying there are two effects that are happening. The first is exactly what I said. But then he says that alone is probably not enough to reverse the hips, so let's look at what else could be doing it. (Bear in mind, he's not saying reaction torque isn't happening, but rather that he doubts it's the only thing happening to reverse the hips.)

He points out that Rory's rear leg is still extending even after impact, so it is producing a force on the right hip. I took a good look at this. We are talking about after impact, often as late as full horizontal extension toward the target. We know that Rory has fast hips, and they are open substantially at impact, then continue to open (except for the reversal -- but that doesn't count because we're looking for what causes the reversal). The force from extension that Phil talks about should be pushing the right hip forward. If the hips are already open, that force would not cause a reversal; in fact, it would reinforce the opening of the hips. So I have to respectfully disagree with Phil and John about this.

If Phil has cranked this motion capture into an inverse dynamics program, and can show that the leg's force on the hip joint creates a hip-reversing torque, I'll be glad to concede the point. But while we're all just using eyeballs to see what is going on, I'll take a stand. It certainly looks to me like that force is causing the hips to open more, not cause hip reversal. Looks like reversal is all reaction to the upper body.

 

[Dave Tutelman]

2 hours ago, Wildthing said:

With regards the less curved hand path in the early downswing , it was mentioned on Dave Tutelman's  website  (see below extract) so I thought it was worthwhile mentioning it as a means of optimising clubhead speed.  

Wouldn't a more curved hand path tend in the early downswing tend to cause a net force across the grip (ie. in front of the clubs COM) causing a positive 'In Plane MOF' that would release the club early (ie. wrist-cock angle would increase)?

Yet many pro-golfers (not all) do seem to create that less curved hand path from P4-P5  (top of backswing ->lead arm horizontal in downswing), which I'm assuming, helps retain the wrist cock without having to 'hold' lag with stiffer wrists.

In Dr Sasho MacKenzie's videos and on Dr Kwon's website, they show a net force across the club in the early downswing that also helps to retain lag (ie. a negative 'In Plane MOF'), but I'm finding that difficult to understand because:

1. Golfers are shifting their chest/pelvis targetward during the early downswing.

2. Golfers are also rotating their upper torso and bringing their arms down at the same time. 

How on earth are they able to apply a net force via their hands on the grip that is generally directed away from the target? I can only assume that they are using their trail arm to push on the club away from target at the same time as points 1 and 2 are happening. But trying to straighten the trail arm in the early downswing away from target, while the lead arm is being pulled towards the target (ie. by sway and rotation of lower and upper body) will surely create a positive torque on the club (ie. early release- like image below).

It doesn't make sense (yet).

 

 

 

 

You can see that the scratch golfer has a relatively straight path (very little curvature) in the blue curve, and a lot more curvature in the red curve. The 18-handicapper is just the opposite -- much more curvature early in the downswing than near impact.

Why does this matter? This is another way of delaying centrifugal release until very late in the downswing, and emphasizing it late for maximum clubhead speed. You don't have to use retarding wrist torque to keep the clubhead lag; just minimize the path curvature early and maximize the curvature late.

--------------------------------------------------

 

 

Thanks for throwing my own writing back at me. Always a good start to a debate. You did well.

Yes, I did write that. It was 10 years ago. 7 years ago, I learned what the up-and-in force (Brian Manzella dubbed it "going normal") does for clubhead speed. Once I learned that, it was much more clear that the significance was in the high curvature before impact. I really ought to edit that when I get a chance; thanks for pointing it out.

As for the counterintuitive explanations of what goes on very early in the downswing... Yeah, it is highly counterintuitive. But the equations hold up, and they are really very simple physics at these slow speeds. Rather than belabor what Sasho has already explained in images, videos, and papers, let me suggest a few reasons it might not jibe with anybody's intuition. (I have to agree, it offends my intuition as well, until I think really hard about it.) Here are a few factors that contribute to the confusion.

• We have forces that we need to exert just to stabilize, or even just to hold onto, the club. We don't think of them as large, but they are often larger than the forces we are consciously exerting to move the club in the way we want to. Gravity is one of those forces, especially at low speed. At higher speeds, we are exerting many tens of pounds just to keep the club from flying off into space. That is probably more than the forces we consciously use to accelerate the club. Actually, they are accelerating the club -- not faster, but along a curved path. But we don't think about that; we just do it. But those forces are still part of any analysis of motion, and often dominate that analysis.
• Some of the forces may happen without our conscious help. Here's one I don't see discussed in any of the biomechanics papers, but... When I start the downswing, the hand couple accelerating the club's angular motion is substantial. In fact, it is substantial the whole time the shaft-forearm angle is the same as it was at transition. But I don't think this is exerted by the muscles controlling the wrist at all. We are, I believe, looking at hard tissue interaction. At transition, that angle is likely determined by the range of motion of radial deviation. If the hand couple to rotate the club did not happen, then that angle would collapse. It would collapse in such a direction as to defy radial deviation range of motion -- to fracture one of the bones involved. (I have run computer simulations; you'd be amazed how much it collapses without the mechanical "stop" of radial deviation limits.) So all that hand couple torque is not supplied by hand effort at all. It is dependent on the bones of the wrist joint not allowing anything different to happen.

I know I didn't explain your specific question. But I hope I've given you some insight into why a satisfying explanation can be difficult.

[Dave Tutelman]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Maybe a little but I’m seeing more and more instructors at least getting into some of the basics and there’s a lot more collaboration of coaches well at least before covid where they put on coaches seminars and have coaches come in and present in various topics to the other coaches in attendance and biomechanics is usually one of the topics

I certainly hope they are getting it. From my participation in one online forum, I know some are. I also know some aren't. They glaze over at math and physics, and biomechanics is math and physics. I hope a majority are getting it, but I wish I could say "believe" rather than just "hope".

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

More to do with learning (ie. a hobby) but as I've mentioned several times before. But I was able to fix a problem by realising that I was using my trail arm in too dominant a manner which fixed my dispersion (a few snap hooks) during my game.  I wouldn't have realised that it was a problem if I wasn't aware of the deleterious effects of applying active torque via the wrists in the downswing.

"Why does it matter how much a pro does of anything matte to your swing"

I can't swing like a pro, but I'd like to learn what they are doing and understand any commonalities in what they do.

" Unless you are moving in the exact same pattern how much torque or forces or speed is only relevant to them."

I can't swing like a pro as I've said above and I'm not copying anyone, just getting a better general perception of the biomechanics involved.  I'm sure they have their unique biomechanics but there may be certain commonalities in what they do. Isn't that worth knowing?

"Rory saw what Bryson was doing with distance and he changed his swing up chasing distance and it cost him accuracy and being in contention on a regular basis."

Did Rory say he was trying to copy Bryson? First time I've heard but I'm not that interested to be honest.

"You don’t have any of the tools at your disposal to measure any of what Sasho or anyone else doing these studies have so how can you tell if you are at, above, below the amount they have and do you have the understanding of what to change in your swing to achieve it/fix it?"

I'm not learning how to swing like a pro (I can't do it) but I'm more aware of 'what not to do'.

"Reading it is one thin and posting what they are saying is one things, understanding it and being able to apply is it a whole different ball game, so far I don’t recall a post where you’ve actually been able to show that"

 I've just said I can't swing like a pro and that I'm learning biomechanics as a hobby to try and understand what commonalities are in pro swings. What exactly do you want me to show?

 

 

 

 

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary. 
 

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

I bet you could learn more about the swing paying about $30 for one of Monte’s swing videos like no turn cast, broom force or the efficient said 

[Goober]

I watched one of the above videos on rear foot movement by Miklos. And talk about a drawn out video. He said that there is 3 1/2 foot movements he recommends out of the 1000 used. 
 

   So then i researched him further and he had a video on no flip after impact. Funny enough all of his swings were like flip city. The young man he was showing his moves to in a lesson actually had a better swing and understanding than he did. But yet Mr Miklos kept on rattling away. Leaving that pro off my list of good reference material 

[Wildthing]

5 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

You keep saying you don’t swing like a pro or not trying to swing like a pro, but yet you are studying the biomechanics of what the pros do so you can apply it to your swing. What they do isn’t applicable to you. Pros don’t swing like pros. Jim Furyk, Brooks Koepka, DJ, Rory, Viktor Hovland, Colin Moirkawa, John Rahm, Matt Wolff, Freddie Couples, Tony Finau, Cameron Champ.

They all swing differently. The pressures they have in the feet, how much their wrist moves, the amount of torque or forces they apply to a shaft, are all going to vary. 
 

If you want to learn the biomechanics of the swing that’s great as it teaches how the body moves but we all have different bodies and leverages. You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing.

You would probably be better off watching videos on the movement patterns good golfers make like a small shift off the ball to start and getting pressure to be around 70/30 on the trail leg, how to properly set the wrist and when to set it, how to turn the hips and get pressure back to 50/50 by lead arm parallel and to 70/30 front side by the top of the swing and leave it there then slowly increase it into impact. Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft.

I bet you could learn more about the swing paying about $30 for one of Monte’s swing videos like no turn cast, broom force or the efficient said 

Some of the biomechanics, especially the kinetics, can be applied to the majority of good golfers (there can be exceptions and outliers). Just understanding the physics of how the clubhead can be optimally accelerated can change your whole perception of what is really happening in a golf swing.

What do you mean when you say, "You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing"?

You've quoted some general COP numbers above but that isn't the only type of pattern that one sees in all good golfers. I am hoping you are more open-minded to the fact that research shows at least 2 categories of golfers, Front Foot and Reverse Groups. The Reverse Group have most of their COP on their trail foot by impact so let's not assume that all good golfers increase their COP on their lead foot.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Microsoft Word - 1 - Title abstract contents.doc (vu.edu.au)

Sixty-two golfers ranging in skill level from professional players to high handicappers, as well as recreational golfers, were used in this study

 

"Learn how the wrists flex and release on the transition and the trail arm unfolds to help shallow the shaft."

Do you have any evidence to support this learning or is it based on opinions? Can you explain the benefits of why a golfer should flex and release the wrists during transition?  Why must the trail arm help shallow the shaft? Why not just pronate your lead forearm? Do you understand why you are doing these learned moves?

"I bet you could learn more about the swing paying about $30 for one of Monte’s swing videos like no turn cast, broom force or the efficient said "

Here is a video he did with BBG which might appeal to some but not for everyone (including me) as I would rather use external focus cues (as per the email I received from Dr Gabrielle Wulf) with a real golf club than a broom. Also, from a pure physics perspective, I'm not convinced the wrist release actions being used to sweep the balls with a broom is reflective of what tour pros do. It seems to imply an active straightening of the trail arm which, in turn, could create active wrist torque and cause problems with the optimal release of the club. I'm guessing that is not what he wants to happen, but that broom drill is something I would personally prefer not to do.

 

 

Here is Lynn Blake doing something similar back in 2011.

 

Note that the physics proves something else, and I hope you can you spot the flaw in Lynn Blakes instruction. The golf shaft is in forward bend by impact, which means negative torque applied by the hands. Not a positive torque as implied by the broom or mop drills.

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Wildthing

[MacTourney]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

I watched one of the above videos on rear foot movement by Miklos. And talk about a drawn out video. He said that there is 3 1/2 foot movements he recommends out of the 1000 used. 
 

   So then i researched him further and he had a video on no flip after impact. Funny enough all of his swings were like flip city. The young man he was showing his moves to in a lesson actually had a better swing and understanding than he did. But yet Mr Miklos kept on rattling away. Leaving that pro off my list of good reference material 

 

Link?  Don't know this person but  I love watching what gurus are up to, or think they're up to. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

11 hours ago, Wildthing said:

What do you mean when you say, "You have to understand what your leverages are in order to figure out your swing"?

Look up Mike Adams.

Everyone has differences in how their hip sockets are, the length of the arms compared to height, the length of their forearms, their femurs. Just like when it comes to finding one’s squat mechanics or deadlift setup position in barbell movements.

There are things in the golf swing that are going to vary for each person. Some people can get past 90° with a shoulder turn and that’s going to change how they swing vs someone of similar stature and build that isn’t as flexible.

 

 

11 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Do you have any evidence to support this learning or is it based on opinions? Can you explain the benefits of why a golfer should flex and release the wrists during transition?  Why must the trail arm help shallow the shaft? Why not just pronate your lead forearm? Do you understand why you are doing these learned moves?

From top instructors like George Gankas, Milo Lines, Monte Scheinblum, AMG, Eric Cogorno. BTW as he describes himself as a fat out of shape old man Monte can generate 120+mph swing speed. 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZCdAK2IgnN/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CT75PP9Dkqb/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

As mentioned above the pros all have different swings and how they move their wrists and their bodies based on where the clubface is and what they are trying to accomplish in the swing. 
 

Most pros don’t move their hips early in the swing and have about 15° of hip turn at club parallel. Most have their wrists fully set at this point as well and it’s just a finish of the turn. Then depending on where they are at the top of the swing some will add more flexion in the wrist (see hovland) or maintain it because they can’t add more (see DJ and Rahm).

All these differences in the swing including how their lower body works will affect how much pressure in the ground they generate, how much torque or force is applied to the shaft, how and when they release the club.

I could care less how much pressure DJ who taller and weighs more than me puts into the ground or how he moves the club because. I don’t flex my wrist like he does and I don’t like the feeling of that much flexion. Just like with Matt Wolff, I can’t create the same ground forces he does and therefore can’t shallow the club and get into the same side bends as him so I’m not going to go to the extreme of his swing patterns.

But understanding how the swing works I can look at video and see where the breakdown is and what to work on and don’t need to understand the amount of torque or anything else to improve my swing 

[MacTourney]

Speed is generated through the hands using big muscles, calves, hamstrings, back, etc., brought into play by using the feet within a ground up sequence is about as simple as it gets.

 

[Wildthing]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Look up Mike Adams.

Everyone has differences in how their hip sockets are, the length of the arms compared to height, the length of their forearms, their femurs. Just like when it comes to finding one’s squat mechanics or deadlift setup position in barbell movements.

There are things in the golf swing that are going to vary for each person. Some people can get past 90° with a shoulder turn and that’s going to change how they swing vs someone of similar stature and build that isn’t as flexible.

 

 

From top instructors like George Gankas, Milo Lines, Monte Scheinblum, AMG, Eric Cogorno. BTW as he describes himself as a fat out of shape old man Monte can generate 120+mph swing speed. 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CdBTqyqjTBH/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CcIrF8XjHfD/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CZCdAK2IgnN/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

https://www.instagram.com/p/CT75PP9Dkqb/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=
 

As mentioned above the pros all have different swings and how they move their wrists and their bodies based on where the clubface is and what they are trying to accomplish in the swing. 
 

Most pros don’t move their hips early in the swing and have about 15° of hip turn at club parallel. Most have their wrists fully set at this point as well and it’s just a finish of the turn. Then depending on where they are at the top of the swing some will add more flexion in the wrist (see hovland) or maintain it because they can’t add more (see DJ and Rahm).

All these differences in the swing including how their lower body works will affect how much pressure in the ground they generate, how much torque or force is applied to the shaft, how and when they release the club.

I could care less how much pressure DJ who taller and weighs more than me puts into the ground or how he moves the club because. I don’t flex my wrist like he does and I don’t like the feeling of that much flexion. Just like with Matt Wolff, I can’t create the same ground forces he does and therefore can’t shallow the club and get into the same side bends as him so I’m not going to go to the extreme of his swing patterns.

But understanding how the swing works I can look at video and see where the breakdown is and what to work on and don’t need to understand the amount of torque or anything else to improve my swing 

Many of those golf instructors have their own opinions of cause and effect in the golf swing.

Do 'GG/Cogorno/Milo/Monte/AMG' actually measure & test golfers for biomechanical patterns like Mike Adams/Terry Rowles (who at least have some evidence to match up swing style and body type patterns)? I don't agree with some of Mike Adams/Terry Rowles assertions but it's 'work in progress' and, to their credit, have employed golf scientists to help validate their findings.

Jon Sinclair has one of the world's largest 3D databases of tour golfers and below is one of his graphs showing lead wrist flexion/extension. He thinks the wrist position at the top is 'style' because of the large variation in flexion/extension between golfers. But if you look at the shape of the graphs, there does seem to be some commonality in the movement from top of backswing to impact. Basically, moving into more lead wrist flexion in the downswing and then later (from about P6.5) in the 'extension direction' (ie. but still in flexion/bowed) into impact.

If  'GG/Milo/AMG/Monte/Cogorno' are incorporating this type of evidence in their instruction, then that makes sense. If not, then it's just opinion based on their own experience of what they think works best for each student (which could be hit or miss).

 

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, Wildthing said:

Many of those golf instructors have their own opinions of cause and effect in the golf swing.

Do 'GG/Cogorno/Milo/Monte/AMG' actually measure & test golfers for biomechanical patterns like Mike Adams/Terry Rowles (who at least have some evidence to match up swing style and body type patterns)? I don't agree with some of Mike Adams/Terry Rowles assertions but it's 'work in progress' and, to their credit, have employed golf scientists to help validate their findings.

Jon Sinclair has one of the world's largest 3D databases of tour golfers and below is one of his graphs showing lead wrist flexion/extension. He thinks the wrist position at the top is 'style' because of the large variation in flexion/extension between golfers. But if you look at the shape of the graphs, there does seem to be some commonality in the movement from top of backswing to impact. Basically, moving into more lead wrist flexion in the downswing and then later (from about P6.5) in the 'extension direction' (ie. but still in flexion/bowed) into impact.

If  'GG/Milo/AMG/Monte/Cogorno' are incorporating this type of evidence in their instruction, then that makes sense. If not, then it's just opinion based on their own experience of what they think works best for each student (which could be hit or miss).

 

 

Remember golf instructors aren’t trying to tell a golfer they need to apply X amount of force or anything else. The golfer doesn’t need to know that.

I know Monte has gears. Not sure how much he uses it with students because he does both indoor and outdoor lessons. GG does all outdoor. Do you think he’s measuring Adam Scott, Matt Wolff, Padraig Harrington or several of the other pros? No he isn’t. He doesn’t use pressure plates either but he has the knowledge of all that. He uses his knowledge to see what they are doing and what they need to tweak.

Same with the others mentioned outside of AMG but again with AMG the number of golfers they have in gears in a lesson is going to be small because it’s an expensive lesson.

They all post lessons of their students on social media. You can see improvements in the swing within a single lesson.

Some others that are very good are Tyler Coonts, Shauheen Nakjhavadi(spelling).

The golf swing is about matchups. I think many would be surprised to find out that the best in the world don’t have perfect swings and some like brooks Koepka have a slight stall and early extension in their swing. 

But again the movements patterns of the best in the world are the same, what varies is how much lead side bend in the backswing and trail side bend in the downswing, how much wrist set in the backswing and how much the wrist moves in transition and into impact. How much the hip moves or the legs extend and flex.

You can learn all you want about the biomechanics but if you can’t apply it to a swing it’s just information with no relevance.

[Wildthing]

I've been looking at some of these videos by Monte Scheinblum , Milo Lines, Eric Cogorno and comparing it with a video that has Jon Sinclair as the guest speaker.

They are utterly confusing!!!

Monte -  No-turn cast drill -

One of the intents is to 'dump' the wrist angles early and you end up with better wrist mechanics by impact. Ulnar deviate the lead wrist at the start of the golf swing to get the COM of the club behind the hands early. I think the logic he's using is that ulnar deviation of the lead wrist gets coupled with wrist flexion which will close the clubface early.

 

Here is Milo Lines with his secret move.

Here is Eric Cognorno

I'll add some more in the next post

Edited August 4, 2022 by Wildthing

[Wildthing]

Here is another Milo Lines video about how to shallow like a Major Champion.

 

Finally, here is Jon Sinclair who has the 3D data on 100's of tour players plus many other golfers across handicaps.

Look at 24:14 -25:40 which I think is closer to Monte Scheinblum's early ulnar deviation of the lead wrist.  I think Jon Sinclair has his own opinion that it is the trail wrist responsible for that move, but I need to double check this out (he's been a guest speaker on other videos).

 

They all seem to have various opinions on how the club shallows (Monte, Milo and Jon using 3D data to help form their personal opinions).

This is what I've learned shallows the club and seems a lot simpler than any of those videos above. 

"clubshaft shallowing is due to the combination of an active right arm adduction maneuver + pitch elbow motion of the right arm + right forearm supination."

 

The one commonality in all their opinions is that bowing of the lead wrist closes the clubface which is correct only when the wrist is in radial deviation. If you keep the lead wrist bowed while it moves into ulnar deviation it opens up the clubface relative to the target line.

Edited August 4, 2022 by Wildthing

[RickyBobby_PR]

29 minutes ago, Wildthing said:

Here is another Milo Lines video about how to shallow like a Major Champion.

 

Finally, here is Jon Sinclair who has the 3D data on 100's of tour players plus many other golfers across handicaps.

Look at 24:14 -25:40 which I think is closer to Monte Scheinblum's early ulnar deviation of the lead wrist.  I think Jon Sinclair has his own opinion that it is the trail wrist responsible for that move, but I need to double check this out (he's been a guest speaker on other videos).

 

They all seem to have various opinions on how the club shallows (Monte, Milo and Jon using 3D data to help form their personal opinions).

This is what I've learned shallows the club and seems a lot simpler than any of those videos above. 

"clubshaft shallowing is due to the combination of an active right arm adduction maneuver + pitch elbow motion of the right arm + right forearm supination."

 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CgH_bG-D6vg/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link
 

https://www.instagram.com/reel/CeWt0F_jBf-/?igshid=YmMyMTA2M2Y=

Instructors find feels, cues, thoughts to get a student to make the proper movement.

The drive 4 dough and efficient swing videos have several drills for shallowing the swing. The golfer finds what clicks for them.

Understanding the movement and being able to communicate to the student what to do, how to do it and find what works for them. Just like all students don’t learn the same they don’t move or feel the samething. This is what makes good and great instructors/coaches

[MacTourney]

17 hours ago, Wildthing said:

Here is another Milo Lines video about how to shallow like a Major Champion.

There are players that have a word, or two, to say about a shallow club beyond Milo, Monte, AMG, Gankas, etc.    Here's a major winner with some pearls about spinning up missiles, or in this case, a football.   

[Wildthing]

Let's look at some of the reasons for shallowing the club shaft.

Many amateur golfers swing the club steeper than what is required from P6 to P8(club shaft horizontal in the downswing to horizontal in the follow-through), that is why they need to shallow the club. Dr Kwon's 3D analysis shows something called the FSP (Functional Swing Plane) that most good players seem to mirror. 

The full Dr Kwon article is in the link below:

FSP (drkwongolf.info)

Considering the anatomical structure of the body and joint ranges of motion, it is unrealistic to expect the clubhead to show a planar motion during the entire downswing phase. The phase needs to be narrowed down.

Figure 2 shows the trajectories of the clubhead (red) and the mid-hand point (blue) and their projected trajectories on the FSP. Two swing events are shown in this figure: MD and ZC. It is clear that the mid-hand point stays on the FSP during the main phase of the downswing (MD-ZC). Therefore, the FSP can also be viewed as the motion plane of the whole club at least during this phase. Elite golfers show well-defined FSPs.

Dave Tutelman also mentions the FSP on his website:

Stability of the swing plane (tutelman.com)

What is the swing plane?

I'm going to borrow another diagram to show what I'm using as the definition of the swing plane. There have been many studies that show the downswing not to be on a single plane. And if you've ever watched Peter Kostis draw lines on the SwingVision image on TV, I'm sure you believe that. It's way more complicated than a plane, and probably more complicated than anybody needs to think about.

But there is a part of the swing that stays remarkably close to a plane. It is the yellow sector of the circle in the diagram, from shaft-horizontal on the downswing, at least to the ball, and probably to shaft-horizontal on the follow-through. A significant portion of the biomechanics world has dubbed this the "functional swing plane", and there are good physical reasons it is planar. In fact, the reason is stable equilibrium, as we will see.

 

 

 

But while we need to shallow the club and swing on the FSP as shown above, there is another reason to have the club shaft even slightly shallower than the lead arm plane in the early downswing (at about P5 lead arm horizontal).

This is the creation of a passive clubface squaring torque which can reduce the amount of musculature forearm rotation required to square the clubface by impact. It depends on the golfer whether he/she finds the passive squaring torque mechanism easier (maybe to time) than the active rotation of lead arm/forearm in the late downswing. For instance, a golfer with weak forearm muscles might prefer the passive way.

http://perfectgolfswingreview.net/MacKenzieArmAbductionPlane.jpg

 

You can see in the image above, that the yellow arrow 'twisting force' (torque) will tend to rotate the lead forearm as the downswing progresses. It won't actually cause the club to go OTT (or topple over the swing plane by P6) when the lead wrist still has large enough radial deviation and that's because the MOI (moment of inertia or rotational mass) of the 'club/hands/arm' about the lead arm axis (black line) is very high. But as the lead wrist ulnar deviates, the MOI decreases and the rotational angular velocity of the forearm increases rapidly, squaring the clubface as the club approaches impact.  This means the golfer isn't solely dependent on the timing (and magnitude) of musculature forearm rotation in the late downswing to square the clubface.

In my own personal opinion, I believe the right arm is mainly responsible for the changing shaft plane in the downswing by using something called the RIGHT ARM FLYING WEDGE ( a useful concept from 'The Golfing Machine').  But while that plane is changing it is also supporting an intact 'LEFT FOREARM FLYING WEDGE' to remain 'On Plane', meaning that an extension of the shaft will always the trace the ball-target line except when the shaft is parallel to the ball-target line.

I could refer you to some videos that could explain the above in detail (but they are hours long and you'd need to understand TGM terminology). But a visual demonstration that is close to explaining the function of the right arm/wrist in supporting the movement of left arm/club through the changing planes of the downswing is in the video below. 

As I've said before, I am not a TGM enthusiast but some of the concepts by Homer Kelley seem to be very useful.

 

I've tried to draw an extension line (blue) of the racquet handle from the top of his backswing to a little later in the downswing.  It will always trace the ball target line (white) while the shaft plane is changing and being supported by the 'RIGHT ARM FLYING WEDGE'.

 

Here's another image which shows the 'LEFT FOREARM FLYING WEDGE' and how it will remain on the changing downswing plane.

 

 

 

Edited August 5, 2022 by Wildthing

[Goober]

The shallow move happens naturally if you move the body correctly. I’ve always felt when the club feels like it is behind and right of you.. good things will happen. I’m feeling that more and more now. And low and behold, my club is a dropping without any thought. As long as I have a pivot driven motion. I equate it to throwing a side arm baseball feeling. How it drops on it own is beyond me. Is it the weight of the club, since focus is more on body motion versus hand and arm motion ?

[RickyBobby_PR]

16 minutes ago, Goober said:

The shallow move happens naturally if you move the body correctly. I’ve always felt when the club feels like it is behind and right of you.. good things will happen. I’m feeling that more and more now. And low and behold, my club is a dropping without any thought. As long as I have a pivot driven motion. I equate it to throwing a side arm baseball feeling. How it drops on it own is beyond me. Is it the weight of the club, since focus is more on body motion versus hand and arm motion ?

Correct. Watch pro swings unless they have a one plane swing or someone like Rickie who has a flat swing they all shallow the shaft to some extent. Even Rickie shallows after going flat to steep then back to shallow.

 

[MacTourney]

1 hour ago, Goober said:

The shallow move happens naturally if you move the body correctly.

Naturally yes,  as it has no choice but to shallow if continuing to move correctly.  It's all about a matchup, or like we say in car shops don't put a Ford head on a Chevy block, it may run but the timing won't last long and will shake your fillings loose. 

[Goober]

This is slowly making sense to me Ricky and Mactourney.