L.A.B. DF3 Putters - 2024 Forum Review

[GolfSpy MPR]

Been doing a lot more attending Little League games and golf events for my children in the past week+ than I have playing golf myself. Had a league match last Thursday, but only got through three holes before the skies opened. I had 6 putts on those three holes, from 26, 14, and 9 feet, so nothing particularly noteworthy there.

Took my boys to a tournament this past Tuesday at Marquette Golf Club; the junior tournament was on the Heritage Course there (their other course is Greywalls, which is likely better known). Both boys won their age groups, though with very limited competition. Afterward, Kirke had some fun putting on a practice green with a pretty good slope:

Anyway, back to the L.A.B. again.

I have one more session with each putter, and then my indoor data collection is finished. Again, this will represent 144 putts with each of the DF3, ER11v, and EAS 4.0. Here are the current standings, including a column I've added that excludes the HackMotion data:

A few observations:

• I added the "without HackMotion" column because the scores were so disparate, and in predictable ways: my lead wrist is most stable with the armlock, slightly less with the counterbalanced DF3, and least with the standard-length Edel.
• The graph is a session-by-session score. With one session left (where they all currently converge on a 100, which can obviously be ignored for now), there seem to be some patterns. After some early variance, the Edel has been very consistent—just not very good. With one bad outlier (the sixth session), the DF3 is making steady improvement throughout the testing. This is something that I hoped to see. Obviously, the DF3 is a bit of an outlier as a putter, and some adjustment period is to be expected. The fact that it's getting more and more solid the more time I spend with it is certainly encouraging.

[Ian Toynbee]

I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here. 

For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

[golfguy94]

8 minutes ago, Ian Toynbee said:

I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here. 

For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

the guys have done a great job and very detailed, however, I can understand your point.  there is a ton of data points in here and the courses are very wide in range.  It would be great to have a concise synopsis of putts from 1-5' 6-10' and 11-15' and over 15'.  the make percentage from even 8 ft is 50/50 for touring pros and drops off even more dramatically over 10' or so.  I appreciate all the updates and everything they've done but it's hard to get a summary of the granular data. 

  It seems that mostly they like the putters and they are going to game them.  though it's not 100%.  I know it convinced me along with a good golfing buddy to try one.  I found a used Mezz Max on ebay with the upgraded accra white shaft and I've been gaming it for about 2-3 weeks now and love the thing.  inside of around 5' I've been almost automatic aside from a few putts with massive slopes on the greens that I sometimes play (slope over 4 degrees on some of them).  what I really found is my proximity to the hole when I have a 25-35 foot putt, is well within makeable range, my lag putting has been significantly better and I've only had one 3 putt in my last 3 rounds. 

[GolfSpy SAM]

18 minutes ago, Ian Toynbee said:

I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here. 

For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

Totally hear you - but definitely keep in mind that this is the data-gathering stage.  The final reviews, which are coming, will gather everything into one summation (to the best of the testers' ability, anyway ) that will be far easier to consume - but one of the things L.A.B. (specifically) asked for was as much data as possible, and the testers are CRUSHING this goal.  

Definitely come back around for the final reviews, which should break it down into a super palatable summary of their experience and, ultimately, whether or not they'll be gaming the DF3 long-term.  

[jbern]

16 hours ago, golfguy94 said:

It would be great to have a concise synopsis of putts from 1-5' 6-10' and 11-15' and over 15'. 

As seen in several of my on-course putting posts, I am tracking every on-course putt with a lot of detail. I was going to save this little chart for the final review, but since you mentioned it, here's where my stats are since using the DF3:

I unfortunately don't have this level of detail for putting stats before the DF3.

[Cfhandyman]

4 hours ago, jbern said:

As seen in several of my on-course putting posts, I am tracking every on-course putt with a lot of detail. I was going to save this little chart for the final review, but since you mentioned it, here's where my stats are since using the DF3:

I unfortunately don't have this level of detail for putting stats before the DF3.

Wow @jbern outstanding information.  It looks like Dory is up to the task.  Well done.

[Cfhandyman]

21 hours ago, Ian Toynbee said:

I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here. 

For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

You have a valid point.  When we look to evaluate putters some of the key metrics are number of overall putts, one putts, vs. two vs. three putts as well as make percentage from 5 feet and in and 10 feet and in.  One of the things you will want to know is what does the data actually show and is there a reason why make percentage might be better.  We know from the Quintic data, that face angle of the putter dictates approximately 90% of the start direction of a putt.  Path accounts for the remainder.  Putting this into practical terms, if your face angle is 2 degrees or more open or closed at impact, you will always miss that 5 foot putt every single time.

For an 8 foot, putt it’s 1degree.  For a 15 foot putt it shrinks to 0.5 degrees.   We have been diligently recording our data and we will share this with you as well as the why it may or may not be better.  One of our roles is to take all this data and put it into meaningful terms that everyone can understand and relate to as well as explain why we see this.  Thank you for your diligence in following us.

20 hours ago, golfguy94 said:

the guys have done a great job and very detailed, however, I can understand your point.  there is a ton of data points in here and the courses are very wide in range.  It would be great to have a concise synopsis of putts from 1-5' 6-10' and 11-15' and over 15'.  the make percentage from even 8 ft is 50/50 for touring pros and drops off even more dramatically over 10' or so.  I appreciate all the updates and everything they've done but it's hard to get a summary of the granular data. 

  It seems that mostly they like the putters and they are going to game them.  though it's not 100%.  I know it convinced me along with a good golfing buddy to try one.  I found a used Mezz Max on ebay with the upgraded accra white shaft and I've been gaming it for about 2-3 weeks now and love the thing.  inside of around 5' I've been almost automatic aside from a few putts with massive slopes on the greens that I sometimes play (slope over 4 degrees on some of them).  what I really found is my proximity to the hole when I have a 25-35 foot putt, is well within makeable range, my lag putting has been significantly better and I've only had one 3 putt in my last 3 rounds. 

As we get closer to the end, we will share our make percentages with you.  @jbern in another post has already given you a sneak preview.  One of the key metrics is from 10 feet and in.  We know from the PGA tour data the make percentage for the pros at 5, 10 and 15 to 20 feet are 82%, 41% and 19% respectively.  i.e. To make a 20 foot putt, the face angle of the putter would need to be 0.25 degrees or less at impact and this also presumes you get the read of the green correct.

[GolfSpy MPR]

The first of (hopefully) two posts this afternoon. This will be an update for on-course performance. Then I'm aiming to do my final indoor data-collection session and get a summary post of that up as well.

I now have 10 (again, mostly 9-hole) rounds with the L.A.B. DF3 tracked with Arccos. Here's the topline number:

So for these past 10 rounds, I'm losing about 2.5 strokes per 18 holes to a scratch golfer. But the key data is that I'm a full 2 strokes better over these ten rounds than I was the previous ten rounds.

As for how I'm better: at least right at this moment, Arccos says that that improvement has come most outside 10':

The graphic puts side-by-side the image from before I received the DF3 and my rounds with the DF3. To be fair: I don't recall, when I created the original image, what data range (how many rounds) it was using. If I'm reading this correctly, this would show something more like the DF3 being .6 strokes per round better than when I started this test.

Breaking it down further by distance:

This fits well both my experience and other data. I'm getting more and more comfortable with the DF3 on short putts. I am exceedingly pleased with the DF3 on long putts. I would love to compare my DF3 to a stock model: my strong suspicion is that, at least for me, the TPT shaft and I get along very, very well. Again, I am using the counterbalanced DF3 (37") with the TPT, and I've been so impressed by how well the distance I get from the DF3 is in line with my expectation. For me, it feels exactly right, and my longer putts are actually my favorites with my L.A.B.

My biggest weakness is that I'm still not really making anything in the mid-range. I mean that literally:

Apparently, in these ten rounds, I've made literally no putts from 10–14 feet. Here, I do have to wonder if I need to be a bit more rigorous in green reading and picking aim lines.

As for overall putts (traditional stats):

There is literally nothing to complain about here. Again, these numbers are going to be misleading, as I noted from the beginning of this test. Our course's greens are very, very small, and I rarely hit them in regulation. Thus, I should have more 1-putts and fewer 3-putts even than a "typical" scratch golfer, simply because our course is atypical.

Last note: this morning's round was encouraging. I went on a nice little par run midround (holes 3–8), and the DF3 definitely carried the load during that stretch:

Starting the round with a 3-putt wasn't awesome, but the rest of the round was solid (would love to have made that last one).

[cnosil]

21 hours ago, golfguy94 said:

the make percentage from even 8 ft is 50/50 for touring pros and drops off even more dramatically over 10' or so. 

The AVERAGE make percentage is about 50%. Over the entire 23/23 season Maverick McNealry made 70.45% of his 8 footers.  James Hahn made 35.14%.   For the current  partial season the best is 73.68 and the worst is 23.08.   

[Cfhandyman]

The Bottom line (Executive) week 9 summary   -  Jun 21/2024

 A somewhat interrupted week with the forum offline for a day and a bit, but still very busy.  Lots of data collection, a mini review on SAM puttlab, how it works, what do the numbers mean and what does good look like. @CFreddie giving Chewie a workout on the course, on the putt perfect matt and stack putting.  @Steve F working through his new putting routine and our video wizzard, @jbern sharing his back nine putting adventures with Dory.  And finally, @Cfhandyman sharing his first 15 rounds with Lab rat vs. his Evnroll comparator compared to a 0 handicap.    Wonderful stuff.

MGS tester of the week – Matt Gomez

Best posts

@Cfhandyman SAM Puttlab, mini review - how it works, what the numbers mean and what does good look like

 

 

SAM Puttlab provides excellent data on the putter and how it moves through the putting stroke.  As a result, one can identify strengths and areas for improvement and then develop a training plan.

@CFreddie - Chewies adventure on course, on the putt perfect matt and stack putting.

 

Stack Putting Performance - in addition to home practice (and actual golf rounds), I'm going to start incorporating the Stack Putting system into my testing routine.  If you aren't familiar with Stack Putting (yes, its part of the Stack System), this program will allow you add a bit more intentionally to your practice routine by guiding you through a series of holes (18 in fact) on the putting green, all of which incorporate different distances, breaks, and speeds.  The cool part about this program is that you can add in different types of tests (putter comparison, grip change) and see the results.  In addition, it allows you to enter a handicap, which gives you a SG read-out to compare to someone at your "level".  Very cool program indeed - here is a link for more information AND access to a free 30 day trial.

https://www.thestacksystem.com/pages/stackputting?gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAjwg8qzBhAoEiwAWagLrPXpOjAXCDOJmWnEZpDBpnh8kh1vv329Ww3KmgIHXqUfO_nL3GzTyhoCsBAQAvD_BwE 

 Best photo posts

      

Best video posts

@Steve F https://forum.mygolfspy.com/uploads/monthly_2024_06/Indoorputtingwtools.mp4.aafdbb2def707a54c0960391ac640d9b.mp4  Indoor putting practice.

@jbern

@GolfSpy MPR

Both boys won their age groups, though with very limited competition. Afterward, Kirke had some fun putting on a practice green with a pretty good slope:

Lines of the week

@cnosilMany instructors advocate for eyes inside the ball.  Tiger Woods putter doesn't align with his forearms. 

  https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y3ckSr2mt/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA==  There will always be players that do things differently.   

@jbern I teed off on 16 and the wind picked up and it turned very dark while my playing partner teed off. The millisecond his drive landed in the fairway, there was a lightning strike 4 miles away that felt like it was right next to us. We BOLTED (pun intended ) off the course and the monsoon of rain came shortly after we dropped off the cart!

@Wheelieb I went to the Golf galaxy here close to me and they had the DF3 there. I don't need a putter, but as a kid who had to play around with a toy in a store I decided to give it a few hits on their putting green. I have to remind myself I don't need a new putter. To be fair I did hit the other models as well and it was almost the same for all of them. But I don't need a new putter. 

@jbern I'm not sure you came to the right spot because it sure sounds like you need a new putter..

Unofficial tester of the week

@ole gray Guys I tried a bunch of putts from off the green recently with poor results. Mostly it's a distance control issue.. Anyone else having issues putting from off the green?

Thank you and join us next Friday for week 10 bottom line (executive) summary

Links to previous weeks summary

Week 8: 

Week 7 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1081343

Week 6 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1078830  

Week 5 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1074887

Week 4 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1071267

Week 3 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1067276

Week 2 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1063554

Week 1 https://forum.mygolfspy.com/topic/64035-lab-df3-putters-2024-forum-review/?do=findComment&comment=1058986

Edited June 21 by Cfhandyman

[Cfhandyman]

Week 9 Regular summary for the L.A.B. DF3

@Rob Person This is exciting to just read the recaps and review posts!  Great job everyone!

@jbern  I added a First Impressions write-up section to my main post. I wrote the post a couple of weeks ago after my first few rounds (that were pretty lackluster) and forgot to add it. So there's no mention of my recent on course putting that's been much better

@Steve F Okay, so while on the mend and able to put my right foot firmly on terra firma again, I broke out the new putting aids (putting mirror and putting edge tool) and knowledge and headed directly to the kitchen, aka, the indoor practice green.  What was and is important at this juncture is address and alignment, and with the help and input of my friends here and Mike at Club Champion, I feel confident that with continued practice and repetition this will become second nature, much like the repetition of bad habits got me in trouble to begin with! With that, the putts will start falling more consistently.

@Rob Person Did I miss it somewhere?  Is the heel of the putter supposed to be off the ground?

@Steve F What I've done here is taken my newly acquired knowledge and have started applying it. Forearm in alignment with the putter shaft, left eye over the ball, shoulders square and aligned with the target. The putter heel, for my current setup, comes off the ground when I align properly, unfortunately.

@cnosil Eyes over the ball, forearms in line with the shaft are choices and often considered a "putting myth".   Many instructors advocate for eyes inside the ball.  Tiger Woods putter doesn't align with his forearms.  

https://www.instagram.com/p/C6y3ckSr2mt/?utm_source=ig_web_copy_link&igsh=MzRlODBiNWFlZA== 

There will always be players that do things differently.   The question about your valuable lesson is was the fitting the problem or that you needed to work on your putting setup?  When should they fit you to what you do versus changing what you do?   Are you more likely to revert back to what you did versus the new approach over time?  All of that said, if you are struggling with an area of your game moving toward a more "stock" setup is probably a good idea

@ole gray Guys I tried a bunch of putts from off the green recently with poor results. Mostly it's a distance control issue.. Anyone else having issues putting from off the green?

@Cfhandyman Initially this was a challenge with the Texas wedge off the greens.  It took a bit of getting used to and deciding when putter was best option or gap wedge with a putting stroke.  Key, I think was long pendulum like stroke and not trying to force it.

@golfguy94 yes to your points.  My problem with club champion and anyone with Putter fittings when you start adding things to the putter itself, you are dramatically changing the dynamics of the putter.  the swingweight, the look, the amount of force to move the additional weight.  IMO though you can't beat a good old gate drill and ball drill.  if your putter is square at impact and starting on the right line, then you are good to go.  Tiger has used those forever.

@Cfhandyman SAM PuttLab: How does it work, what do the numbers mean and what does good look like: A mini review – Part 1

It uses ultrasound sensors to track the movement of the putter during the entire stroke, including backswing and impact.  A sensor is attached to the putter shaft which then measures data providing real time feedback (see figure below).  Your data is compared to a reference sample of 99 PGA tour professionals.

   It focuses on the putting stroke, timing, and biomechanics (alignment, swing path, face angle, impact position and tempo).

Accuracy: It is highly accurate for stroke mechanics and provides immediate feedback on stroke and is best for golfers focusing on stroke improvement.  The machine tracks where you make impact, how your striking speed differs or compares to your tap-ins, your stroke path, and many, many more elements.  The sensor that attaches to the putter shaft is 48gmm so it will effect swing weight, but this can be minimized by placing at counter balance point.  The resolution of the system is 0.1mm and 0.1 degrees

SAM Puttlab provides excellent data on the putter and how it moves through the putting stroke.  As a result, one can identify strengths and areas for improvement and then develop a training plan.

@jbern I was out playing my first 18 hole round since receiving the DF3 for testing.  On the day (through 15 holes) I had 25 putts and 22 of those putts felt VERY professional. I had 1 three putt, 8 two putts and 6 one putts. Below is the detailed spreadsheet for the round:

My routine stayed consistent all round and I'm really enjoy it. I walk off the distance to the hole while reading the putt. I get back to my ball and line up the lines on the golf ball with my start line. I stand up, visualize the putt and decide on a distance number to hit (e.g. for a 10 foot putt uphill, I'll decide to hit it 15 feet). I set the DF3 behind the ball, make my stance and go.

@jbern  From videoing my putting stroke, I noticed that on longer putts, and even occasionally on shorter putts, my arms straighten when taking the backstroke. I really concentrated on keeping my arms steady and moving the putter with bigger muscles in my back and shoulders.  

Anyway, this lead to my highest Exputt Analysis score ever. It was previously a score of 77.2 with my Sub70 AL-6 armlock putter and I narrowly eclipsed that with Dory with a score of 77.4! I did two Exputt Analysis sessions I didn't mention in the thread, but my running scores are 68.5, 67.7, 69.7, 70.2, 72.8, 63.7, 70.3 and now 77.4. 

@Steve F  I appreciate all the putting help input from everyone! As @cnosil said, getting a "stock setup" and working from there is not a bad idea. I understand that everyone plays differently, but now having a "baseline" address and setup seems to be helping even in the short span of time that I've been able to practice it. I did a bit of indoor testing and had a session on the practice green on Saturday, those numbers to follow. 33 putts for this round, so I cannot complain overall. I'm getting and now understanding the concept of just the pendulum motion and letting the putter do the work! More work and better rounds on the horizon

@Wheelieb Ok, main reason I came here. I went to the Golf galaxy here close to me and they had the DF3 there. I don't need a putter, but as a kid who had to play around with a toy in a store I decided to give it a few hits on their putting green. I have to remind myself I don't need a new putter. To be fair I did hit the other models as well and it was almost the same for all of them. But I don't need a new putter. 

@jbern I'm not sure you came to the right spot because it sure sounds like you need a new putter..

@MattWillGolf Ah yes, “The new putter conundrum 

@HikingMike Hey out of curiosity, what's your tripod setup? I'm curious to possibly video myself as well.

@jbern  I actually use my pushcart as the "tripod" and mount a tripod ball-head with a phone adapter to it. Below is a photo and I put a little summary about it in a Clicgear 4.0 pushcart review post here:

@HikingMike Monopod with some kind of ground stake definitely crossed my mind too. Just pull it out and stick it in the ground... as long as ground conditions are ok. I hadn't actually looked for one, but good to hear they are out there. Thanks

@CFreddie Father's Day Golf - was able to get in 18 on Father's Day (my wife is a saint), and Chewie continued to perform.  Most impressive part of my putting performance was lag putting - distance control and pace was on point today, and left me with ZERO 3-putts (2nd round in a row).  As you'll see across the rest of my results, Chewie and I definitely seem to be turning a corner...

   

 

@Cfhandyman Very nice data from the Stack system. A nice complement to Arccos. Glad to see Chewie is rising to the occasion.  Well done. 

@jbern  Do you input the putting data during your round or on a practice green? I might have to give it a try... at least for the 30 day free trial!

@CFreddie  the basic process is your create putt "scenarios" based on their direction (see screenshot below), hit the putt(s), and record the outcome.  Based on the handicap you enter, they can calculate a SG based on those results across 18 holes (it actually updates in real time, pretty neat).  Another cool feature is you can setup "comparisons" - allowing you to enter two different putters, grip changes (left hand low vs standard vs claw), etc, and compare the results (what I shared above).

@MattWillGolf Got out for nine holes with Nemo in the heat this morning. I was feeling Rory today. I had 4-footer for birdie that just missed.  But overall, I was pleased with the putting. I even used Nemo for a Texas wedge to 4-feet on the hardest hole on the course and made the putt for par. I had 16 putts for 9 holes. The round included one 3-putt, five 2-putts and three 1-putts

@rarce_torres I like the reviews you are all giving and I might need to try these out!

@jbern I would definitely recommend giving the DF3 a try, but I would also recommend getting one that fits you via their online fitting submission. Let us know if you end up trying one out

@Cfhandyman 15 rounds with DF3  Compared to a 0 handicap, I give up 6 strokes per round (-2 from driving, -4.5 from approach, but make it up in short game +0.2 and putting +0.2).  My overall game has worsened over the last 6 rounds primarily due to lessons and incorporating swing changes into my game. I’m working on shallowing my swing with a better and smoother transition (tempo) resulting in a more neutral or in to out path versus my previous steep, out to in path. However, despite this no impact on short game or putting.  Still very good. However, approach play has been worse resulting in longer initial putts and less one putts and birdies.

The biggest and most noticeable difference is inside 10 feet.  I’m reasonably confident that I now can make that 5 to 6 footer at an approximately 80% success rate.  The difference is that I've gone from I hope I can make this, to a you can definitely make this attitude.  Now I still have to get the read and pace right, but the L.A.B. DF3 with its exceptional face angle control has given me the confidence that I can make that 5, 10 or even a 20 footer.  Lag putting has been very good.  I will occasionally hit the odd stinker from long range, primarily if I try to force it or totally get the read of the green wrong.  Off the green putts, aka Texas wedge have gotten much better.  I am still very impressed with how good this putter is. Loving the Lab rat.

@GolfSpy MPR  Again, this will represent 144 putts with each of the DF3, ER11v, and EAS 4.0. Here are the current standings, including a column I've added that excludes the HackMotion data:

A few observations:

I added the "without HackMotion" column because the scores were so disparate, and in predictable ways: my lead wrist is most stable with the armlock, slightly less with the counterbalanced DF3, and least with the standard-length Edel.

The graph is a session-by-session score. With one session left (where they all currently converge on a 100, which can obviously be ignored for now), there seem to be some patterns. After some early variance, the Edel has been very consistent—just not very good. With one bad outlier (the sixth session), the DF3 is making steady improvement throughout the testing. This is something that I hoped to see. Obviously, the DF3 is a bit of an outlier as a putter, and some adjustment period is to be expected. The fact that it's getting more and more solid the more time I spend with it is certainly encouraging.

 

@Ian Toynbee I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here.  For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

@golfguy94  the guys have done a great job and very detailed, however, I can understand your point.  there is a ton of data points in here and the courses are very wide in range.  It would be great to have a concise synopsis of putts from 1-5' 6-10' and 11-15' and over 15'.  the make percentage from even 8 ft is 50/50 for touring pros and drops off even more dramatically over 10' or so.  I appreciate all the updates and everything they've done but it's hard to get a summary of the granular data.

@GolfSpy SAM Totally hear you - but definitely keep in mind that this is the data-gathering stage.  The final reviews, which are coming, will gather everything into one summation (to the best of the testers' ability, anyway  that will be far easier to consume - but one of the things L.A.B. (specifically) asked for was as much data as possible, and the testers are CRUSHING this goal.  

Definitely come back around for the final reviews, which should break it down into a super palatable summary of their experience and, ultimately, whether or not they'll be gaming the DF3 long-term.

[GolfSpy SAM]

Fun update: 28 putts on Friday, including 9 1-putts.  One 3-putt, which was honestly just a case of me being greedy on a par 5 where'd I'd hit the stick chipping up to the back pin, and tried to ram in the birdie putt from 8 feet, and then missed a 6-foot slider coming back.  

My playing partner commented multiple times on how fun it was to watch the end-over-end roll of the ball off the DF3.  "You must really like that putter" he said after 9 holes. I do indeed

[Rearviewmirror]

Hey folks, chiming in with my (unofficial) experience with the DF3. I'm now seven rounds in and I feel like I'm hitting my stride - including dropping my first >20ft putt in a long time.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but I collected some data on distance of second putts before switching to the DF3 from my Mezz. Long lag putting had been my nemesis with the Mezz, in spite of everything inside of 10ft feeling pretty automatic.

Here's second putt data for all putts (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's second putt data for putts where the first putt is 15ft or greater (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's the last 7 rounds (since getting the DF3).

On Arccos, the club stats for the DF3 are 0.03 strokes lost, the Mezz was -0.07. 

This bad boy is definitely a keeper for me! I feel like it has really started to shine recently and I played on what I would consider the fastest greens I've ever played on - probably around a 12.5 stimp. Not only did the DF3 keep up, but putting was one of my best attributes that round. I feel like it'll only continue to improve as I get even more dialled.

Edited June 23 by Rearviewmirror

[Rob Person]

Great recap @Cfhandyman!  

[Cfhandyman]

6 hours ago, Rearviewmirror said:

Hey folks, chiming in with my (unofficial) experience with the DF3. I'm now seven rounds in and I feel like I'm hitting my stride - including dropping my first >20ft putt in a long time.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but I collected some data on distance of second putts before switching to the DF3 from my Mezz. Long lag putting had been my nemesis with the Mezz, in spite of everything inside of 10ft feeling pretty automatic.

Here's second putt data for all putts (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's second putt data for putts where the first putt is 15ft or greater (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's the last 7 rounds (since getting the DF3).

On Arccos, the club stats for the DF3 are 0.03 strokes lost, the Mezz was -0.07. 

This bad boy is definitely a keeper for me! I feel like it has really started to shine recently and I played on what I would consider the fastest greens I've ever played on - probably around a 12.5 stimp. Not only did the DF3 keep up, but putting was one of my best attributes that round. I feel like it'll only continue to improve as I get even more dialled.

Great recap and overview. Glad to see your finding your stride with the DF3. Thanks for sharing. 

[Rearviewmirror]

8 hours ago, Cfhandyman said:

Great recap and overview. Glad to see your finding your stride with the DF3. Thanks for sharing. 

I think the biggest change has been comfort level on different speeds of greens. I've played four different courses in four days and been rolling it well across all of them. Now that I feel like I have my DF3 putting grooved, I'll be interested to see how I go on my home course!

[jbern]

18 hours ago, Rearviewmirror said:

Hey folks, chiming in with my (unofficial) experience with the DF3. I'm now seven rounds in and I feel like I'm hitting my stride - including dropping my first >20ft putt in a long time.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but I collected some data on distance of second putts before switching to the DF3 from my Mezz. Long lag putting had been my nemesis with the Mezz, in spite of everything inside of 10ft feeling pretty automatic.

Here's second putt data for all putts (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's second putt data for putts where the first putt is 15ft or greater (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's the last 7 rounds (since getting the DF3).

On Arccos, the club stats for the DF3 are 0.03 strokes lost, the Mezz was -0.07. 

This bad boy is definitely a keeper for me! I feel like it has really started to shine recently and I played on what I would consider the fastest greens I've ever played on - probably around a 12.5 stimp. Not only did the DF3 keep up, but putting was one of my best attributes that round. I feel like it'll only continue to improve as I get even more dialled.

Thanks for sharing your experiences and giving a nice summary and data on how you're getting along with your DF3! 

3 hours ago, Rearviewmirror said:

I think the biggest change has been comfort level on different speeds of greens. I've played four different courses in four days and been rolling it well across all of them. Now that I feel like I have my DF3 putting grooved, I'll be interested to see how I go on my home course!

I don't have a "home course" and have been playing several different courses and have found the transition between green speeds to be fairly smooth. That being said, I don't think I've ever played on a course that's running at 12.5! What do you think your home course typically runs at? Hopefully your transition back to your home course will be easy peasy! 

[Cfhandyman]

SAM Puttlab versus Quintic ball roll – Similarities, differences and best uses – Part 2

In Part 1, we reviewed the SAM Puttlab.  We have previously reviewed the Quintic ball roll system (link at bottom).  In part 2, we will compare and contrast SAM Puttlab and the Quintic ball roll system.  What are the similarities, differences and best uses for each.  Both are excellent analytical tools in helping with your putting and putter fitting.  However, they go about it in slightly different fashions.  We have learned from the Quintic data, that Face angle is the holy grail, controls 83-92% of the start direction of the ball

   SAM Puttlab                                                                                                         Quintic ball roll

         

Comparison of features, benefits and differences of SAM Puttlab versus Quintic Ball roll system highlighted in the table below

 

 Why Choose One Over the Other?

Choose based on your priorities:  

Putter Fitting: Both will help you.  The key difference is that Quintic also looks at what happens to your ball after impact.  It gives you ball data as well as clubhead data.  This way you can identify how the putter moves through impact and how this affects the ball.  The other advantage, the sensor is a piece of reflective tape rather than 48 gm sensor attached to the club which can possibly change the behaviour of the club.  Quintic, is very accurate with its high speed cameras.  The data provided takes the guess work out of the process.  However, given the cost of the system, usually only high end fitters will have them.

If you are more interested in your putter mechanics and stroke, SAM is probably better, especially if your coach has one.

If you are more interested in the ball dynamics and what happens to the ball after impact, Quintic is better.

Caveats – need a skilled fitter, machine has to be calibrated properly

References:

1.      Quintic Putting Analysis Software by Quintic (https://quinticballroll.com )   

2.      Science and Motion (SAM) (www.scienceandmotion.com )

3.      C. Marquardt, SAM PuttLab: Concept and PGA tour data, Annual Review of golf coaching, pg 101-114) 2007

4.      TXG (www.Clubchampion.ca )

5.      MGS (www.mygolfspy.com )

6.      Club Champion (US) (www.clubchampion.com)

7.      GolfWRX (www.golfwrx.com)  

Links:

·         SAM Puttlab (

·         Quintic ball roll system

·         Part 1 -

·         Part 2 -

·         Part 3 -  

 

 

[arodrig29]

On 6/20/2024 at 5:43 PM, Ian Toynbee said:

I've tried to follow everything recorded on these putters and well done to the dedication to the task. However, I wonder whether there is an element of paralysis by analysis here. 

For me, how a putter performs from 4 to 15 feet is the key. Success in this range avoids the pesky 3 putts and rewards good chips for up and downs and full shots in, whether for birdies or pars.

Completely agree my friend 

[MattWillGolf]

22 hours ago, Rearviewmirror said:

Hey folks, chiming in with my (unofficial) experience with the DF3. I'm now seven rounds in and I feel like I'm hitting my stride - including dropping my first >20ft putt in a long time.

I think I mentioned earlier in this thread, but I collected some data on distance of second putts before switching to the DF3 from my Mezz. Long lag putting had been my nemesis with the Mezz, in spite of everything inside of 10ft feeling pretty automatic.

Here's second putt data for all putts (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's second putt data for putts where the first putt is 15ft or greater (green line is DF3) - lower is better:

Here's the last 7 rounds (since getting the DF3).

On Arccos, the club stats for the DF3 are 0.03 strokes lost, the Mezz was -0.07. 

This bad boy is definitely a keeper for me! I feel like it has really started to shine recently and I played on what I would consider the fastest greens I've ever played on - probably around a 12.5 stimp. Not only did the DF3 keep up, but putting was one of my best attributes that round. I feel like it'll only continue to improve as I get even more dialled.

Great detail on your putting stats. Arccos definitely offers a lot more that Shot Scope when it comes to putting. You indeed do get what you pay for. Thanks for adding on the thread.

[GolfSpy MPR]

Indoor putting data collection is complete!

For those who hadn't seen earlier posts, my process has been:

• Collect data for three putters: the L.A.B. DF3 counterbalance (37"), the Evnroll Midlock ER11v (40"), and the Edel EAS 4.0 (34").
• Attach Blast Motion sensor to the putter; strap the HackMotion wrist sensor to my lead wrist. Set up the ExPutt for random putts from 5–50'.
• Roll 10–12 putts with the putter as a warmup, without collecting any data, giving each putter a fair shot with feel, etc., and also being used to putting with the HackMotion/Blast.
• Turn on HackMotion/Blast data collection, and set the ExPutt on "Analysis." This creates a sequence of 18 straight putts of random distances (10–50').
• When the 18 putts are done, save the session data for Blast and HackMotion, and take screen shots of the ExPutt distance, face angle, and path summary screens.
• Input all that data in a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fam_m2w-Fq-EX6nDLa82TnbgRot1X5Qs2ZJOdzdTfag/edit?usp=sharing)
• Complete 8 of these sessions with each of the 3 putters, randomizing the order.

432 putts of data collection later, here are the final standings:

Pretty early on, and consistently throughout the test, this became a two-horse race between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. Despite the Edel being my primary gamer since I tested it for the Forum back in 2021, it was just not keeping up with the others. And that's even true when excluding the HackMotion from the numbers: the Edel was last by a decent gap in every category.

Meanwhile, although the top 2 putters were very close, the Evnroll Midlock was the clear winner in every category. It should surprise no one that an armlock putter does really well with wrist stability measurements. But it also does well in the putter measurements and in the putting outcomes.

I decided to create another summary chart. This one includes only ExPutt data, and actually excludes the path number. When ExPutt itself summaries the Analysis session, it does so in categories of short, medium, and long putts. Because the Analysis features random putts from 10–50', none are truly short in the way we'd normally think. But I think there's still some relative value in the breakdown.

So this chart combines the distance control and face angle scores, but by distance:

This, I think, is enlightening. While the Evnroll still has the highest total score (an average of 73.6), the DF3 is only factionally behind (73.4). More importantly for me, though: the gap on short putts between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. is quite large.

Overall, the numbers being what they are, I have to declare the Evnroll the objective winner of this portion of my testing. But if I look at that last chart, especially, I think there's a good case there for me to do what I plan to do: keep using my DF3. This data would indicate that I'll be nearly as good from medium and long-ranges with the L.A.B. as I would be with the Evnoll, but then as I get closer to the hole, I would expect to make more putts with the DF3.

And that's exactly what I want to do.

[CFreddie]

5 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Indoor putting data collection is complete!

For those who hadn't seen earlier posts, my process has been:

• Collect data for three putters: the L.A.B. DF3 counterbalance (37"), the Evnroll Midlock ER11v (40"), and the Edel EAS 4.0 (34").
• Attach Blast Motion sensor to the putter; strap the HackMotion wrist sensor to my lead wrist. Set up the ExPutt for random putts from 5–50'.
• Roll 10–12 putts with the putter as a warmup, without collecting any data, giving each putter a fair shot with feel, etc., and also being used to putting with the HackMotion/Blast.
• Turn on HackMotion/Blast data collection, and set the ExPutt on "Analysis." This creates a sequence of 18 straight putts of random distances (10–50').
• When the 18 putts are done, save the session data for Blast and HackMotion, and take screen shots of the ExPutt distance, face angle, and path summary screens.
• Input all that data in a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fam_m2w-Fq-EX6nDLa82TnbgRot1X5Qs2ZJOdzdTfag/edit?usp=sharing)
• Complete 8 of these sessions with each of the 3 putters, randomizing the order.

432 putts of data collection later, here are the final standings:

Pretty early on, and consistently throughout the test, this became a two-horse race between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. Despite the Edel being my primary gamer since I tested it for the Forum back in 2021, it was just not keeping up with the others. And that's even true when excluding the HackMotion from the numbers: the Edel was last by a decent gap in every category.

Meanwhile, although the top 2 putters were very close, the Evnroll Midlock was the clear winner in every category. It should surprise no one that an armlock putter does really well with wrist stability measurements. But it also does well in the putter measurements and in the putting outcomes.

I decided to create another summary chart. This one includes only ExPutt data, and actually excludes the path number. When ExPutt itself summaries the Analysis session, it does so in categories of short, medium, and long putts. Because the Analysis features random putts from 10–50', none are truly short in the way we'd normally think. But I think there's still some relative value in the breakdown.

So this chart combines the distance control and face angle scores, but by distance:

This, I think, is enlightening. While the Evnroll still has the highest total score (an average of 73.6), the DF3 is only factionally behind (73.4). More importantly for me, though: the gap on short putts between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. is quite large.

Overall, the numbers being what they are, I have to declare the Evnroll the objective winner of this portion of my testing. But if I look at that last chart, especially, I think there's a good case there for me to do what I plan to do: keep using my DF3. This data would indicate that I'll be nearly as good from medium and long-ranges with the L.A.B. as I would be with the Evnoll, but then as I get closer to the hole, I would expect to make more putts with the DF3.

And that's exactly what I want to do.

Excellent summary @GolfSpy MPR - it looks like you are going to have a hard decision at the end of testing.  Regardless, VERY impressive performance across all three putters!!!

[Cfhandyman]

7 minutes ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Indoor putting data collection is complete!

For those who hadn't seen earlier posts, my process has been:

• Collect data for three putters: the L.A.B. DF3 counterbalance (37"), the Evnroll Midlock ER11v (40"), and the Edel EAS 4.0 (34").
• Attach Blast Motion sensor to the putter; strap the HackMotion wrist sensor to my lead wrist. Set up the ExPutt for random putts from 5–50'.
• Roll 10–12 putts with the putter as a warmup, without collecting any data, giving each putter a fair shot with feel, etc., and also being used to putting with the HackMotion/Blast.
• Turn on HackMotion/Blast data collection, and set the ExPutt on "Analysis." This creates a sequence of 18 straight putts of random distances (10–50').
• When the 18 putts are done, save the session data for Blast and HackMotion, and take screen shots of the ExPutt distance, face angle, and path summary screens.
• Input all that data in a spreadsheet (https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Fam_m2w-Fq-EX6nDLa82TnbgRot1X5Qs2ZJOdzdTfag/edit?usp=sharing)
• Complete 8 of these sessions with each of the 3 putters, randomizing the order.

432 putts of data collection later, here are the final standings:

Pretty early on, and consistently throughout the test, this became a two-horse race between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. Despite the Edel being my primary gamer since I tested it for the Forum back in 2021, it was just not keeping up with the others. And that's even true when excluding the HackMotion from the numbers: the Edel was last by a decent gap in every category.

Meanwhile, although the top 2 putters were very close, the Evnroll Midlock was the clear winner in every category. It should surprise no one that an armlock putter does really well with wrist stability measurements. But it also does well in the putter measurements and in the putting outcomes.

I decided to create another summary chart. This one includes only ExPutt data, and actually excludes the path number. When ExPutt itself summaries the Analysis session, it does so in categories of short, medium, and long putts. Because the Analysis features random putts from 10–50', none are truly short in the way we'd normally think. But I think there's still some relative value in the breakdown.

So this chart combines the distance control and face angle scores, but by distance:

This, I think, is enlightening. While the Evnroll still has the highest total score (an average of 73.6), the DF3 is only factionally behind (73.4). More importantly for me, though: the gap on short putts between the Evnroll and the L.A.B. is quite large.

Overall, the numbers being what they are, I have to declare the Evnroll the objective winner of this portion of my testing. But if I look at that last chart, especially, I think there's a good case there for me to do what I plan to do: keep using my DF3. This data would indicate that I'll be nearly as good from medium and long-ranges with the L.A.B. as I would be with the Evnoll, but then as I get closer to the hole, I would expect to make more putts with the DF3.

And that's exactly what I want to do.

Michael, superb job and a lot of great data here and lots of work.  The one thing the armlock method does very well is dramatically reduce face rotation and hence better control of face angle, so no surprise that it performed well.  The Ex putt data was very interesting in that essentially the Evnroll and L.A.B. are neck and neck, where the biggest differentiator is on short putts.  What would be fascinating to know, does this experience mirror what you see on the course and from ten feet an in, which of the two putters would be your go to?  Great job and well done.

[GolfSpy MPR]

3 minutes ago, Cfhandyman said:

What would be fascinating to know, does this experience mirror what you see on the course and from ten feet an in, which of the two putters would be your go to?

So this is a great question.

Since I've received my DF3, it is the only putter I've used on course. At least right now, I also don't intend to use either the Edel or the Evnroll for a round of golf this year, unless something starts going really sidewise with the L.A.B.

Here are two ways I can answer this question. The first is an Arccos stat comparison. I've lamented before, and here I lament again, that Arccos doesn't have a "compare this date range to that date range" feature. The best I can do is compare my most recent 10 rounds (all with the DF3) to my most recent 50 rounds (which would include the DF3, but then 40 rounds without it). It's dirty data, but it's the best data I've got.

OK, this chart is a little disorienting: for my rounds with the DF3 (on the left), it's "missing" the final bar because I've not lost strokes from 40+'. The chart on the right (the "before" side) is "missing" a bar because I apparently was even SG inside 2'.

So in the ten rounds I've had the L.A.B., I've missed a couple of really short putts, and that is showing up here. But if you group some categories, it would show that from 0–9', I was losing a cumulative 2.1 strokes per round, and so far with the DF3, I'm losing 1.5 in that range.

The make-rate chart tells a similar story. You can see that I've missed one or two shorties. But that jump in make rate from 3–5' is not trivial. Hopefully, that weird hole (zero makes from 10–14') will get patched soon.

So yes, on the whole, I think the on-course data shows that the L.A.B. has cost me nothing from medium to long range, and has given me a noticeable, though not world-altering, boost on my short putting so far.

My next goal, now that (hopefully) we have a week ahead without rain, is to get my on course Stack putting sessions done. Again, my intention there is to do three sessions with each of the three putters and compare the SG numbers that are generated by each.

[Rearviewmirror]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

So this is a great question.

Since I've received my DF3, it is the only putter I've used on course. At least right now, I also don't intend to use either the Edel or the Evnroll for a round of golf this year, unless something starts going really sidewise with the L.A.B.

Here are two ways I can answer this question. The first is an Arccos stat comparison. I've lamented before, and here I lament again, that Arccos doesn't have a "compare this date range to that date range" feature. The best I can do is compare my most recent 10 rounds (all with the DF3) to my most recent 50 rounds (which would include the DF3, but then 40 rounds without it). It's dirty data, but it's the best data I've got.

OK, this chart is a little disorienting: for my rounds with the DF3 (on the left), it's "missing" the final bar because I've not lost strokes from 40+'. The chart on the right (the "before" side) is "missing" a bar because I apparently was even SG inside 2'.

So in the ten rounds I've had the L.A.B., I've missed a couple of really short putts, and that is showing up here. But if you group some categories, it would show that from 0–9', I was losing a cumulative 2.1 strokes per round, and so far with the DF3, I'm losing 1.5 in that range.

The make-rate chart tells a similar story. You can see that I've missed one or two shorties. But that jump in make rate from 3–5' is not trivial. Hopefully, that weird hole (zero makes from 10–14') will get patched soon.

So yes, on the whole, I think the on-course data shows that the L.A.B. has cost me nothing from medium to long range, and has given me a noticeable, though not world-altering, boost on my short putting so far.

My next goal, now that (hopefully) we have a week ahead without rain, is to get my on course Stack putting sessions done. Again, my intention there is to do three sessions with each of the three putters and compare the SG numbers that are generated by each.

I really wish Arccos allowed user generated reports for this exact reason! 

Your experience is very similar to mine. I'm not making many putts outside of 13ft with the DF3, but I feel like everything inside 13ft has a chance, and most putts from 20-25 are kick ins. The stress reduction and the ability to jar almost everything inside 6ft is well worth the lack of bombs dropping!

Next up, armlock DF3?

[G-Ram]

Ordered a DF3 2 weeks ago, sadly be about 4 more before it ships, I was told 

Bummer, it's going to miss my trip to Cabot Cliffs!

That's no worries, I will have about 20 rounds with my current putter for stats on Arccos, so I will offer up some thoughts at the 5, 10, 15, and 20 round marks, and compare.

I play the same rotation of courses mainly, so should be pretty evenly spread out through both clubs, instead of 12 rounds at one course that has wildly faster greens than another etc. Looking forward to seeing the differences!

[CFreddie]

Just now, G-Ram said:

Ordered a DF3 2 weeks ago, sadly be about 4 more before it ships, I was told 

Bummer, it's going to miss my trip to Cabot Cliffs!

That's no worries, I will have about 20 rounds with my current putter for stats on Arccos, so I will offer up some thoughts at the 5, 10, 15, and 20 round marks, and compare.

I play the same rotation of courses mainly, so should be pretty evenly spread out through both clubs, instead of 12 rounds at one course that has wildly faster greens than another etc. Looking forward to seeing the differences!

Stinks you will now have to delay your trip! 

But seriously, what were the specs on your DF3?  Would love to see it once it arrives!!!

[G-Ram]

10 minutes ago, CFreddie said:

Stinks you will now have to delay your trip! 

But seriously, what were the specs on your DF3?  Would love to see it once it arrives!!!

Hahaha right? Tying it in the the Canadian Team Titleist event, so kind of stuck with them dates

Got it in orange, 69°, 34", sight mark "L" and the "one level up" Accra Black shaft, with 2° press pistol grip

 

10 minutes ago, CFreddie said:

Stinks you will now have to delay your trip! 

But seriously, what were the specs on your DF3?  Would love to see it once it arrives!!!

 

[CFreddie]

Just now, G-Ram said:

Hahaha right? Tying it in the the Canadian Team Titleist event, so kind of stuck with them dates

Got it in orange, 69°, 34", sight mark "L" and the "one level up" Accra Black shaft, with 2° press pistol grip

 

 

Looks like Nemo may have a cousin soon @MattWillGolf!

[Jim Shaw]

18 minutes ago, G-Ram said:

Ordered a DF3 2 weeks ago, sadly be about 4 more before it ships, I was told 

Bummer, it's going to miss my trip to Cabot Cliffs!

That's no worries, I will have about 20 rounds with my current putter for stats on Arccos, so I will offer up some thoughts at the 5, 10, 15, and 20 round marks, and compare.

I play the same rotation of courses mainly, so should be pretty evenly spread out through both clubs, instead of 12 rounds at one course that has wildly faster greens than another etc. Looking forward to seeing the differences!

I'm sure you know this but the "Cabot" group is building a course in Revelstoke, a lot closer than than the Cabot Trail for you... I should be able to take a look at the Revelstoke property as I am heading to Revelstoke for the BC seniors in July...