Increasing Loft, Not just a TaylorMade Buzz Item

[SPY ZINGER]

So I got a message today asking about a rumored Limited Edition White SLDR set to hit the market this spring. Any of you LoftUp hear that while in SAN?

[hckymeyer]

So I got a message today asking about a rumored Limited Edition White SLDR set to hit the market this spring. Any of you LoftUp hear that while in SAN?

We asked about the color and why it wasn't white.  They said it was originally going to be white, but when they passed both versions around the office it was almost unanimous that the current gray color scheme looked fantastic and was the one everyone would buy.

[SPY ZINGER]

We asked about the color and why it wasn't white. They said it was originally going to be white, but when they passed both versions around the office it was almost unanimous that the current gray color scheme looked fantastic and was the one everyone would buy.

Makes sense, but I guess they're releasing a limited edition white head as well.

[hckymeyer]

Makes sense, but I guess they're releasing a limited edition white head as well.

That would fit perfectly with the R1 release debacle.  All they need to do is drop the price about a month before the release

[mr_divots]

My divots I'm curious in regards to your comment that low spin is hard to control?  Doesn't reducing spin with the driver take an element off the table?  If I reduce the spin the ball will not curve as much and it will roll farther therefore I'll have much more control.  Of course if I don't launch the thing high enough into the air in the first place I'll be hitting something akin to a ground ball - ground balls are very easy to control.

 

I'm not trying to be difficult and I'm certainly in the camp that not everyone will benefit from what the SLDR has to offer but I want to be sure that we are accurate in our criticisms and in our statemetns about why a piece of equipment isn't working properly.

 

I have no doubt that the data suggests that most players have a problem with too much spin and not because they have to little spin off the driver.  There is always an exception to that rule.

The spin axis of the ball is going to be very straight with low spin, so the gear effect is lessened and the ball has to start on its intended line that much more, as there is less spin axis working the ball back to the fairway. And low spin with a strong descent angle that is going to provide forward roll very well might kick forward and find more trouble. G25 vs my Anser, I found the Anser pretty tough to control due to the low spin. I had more than one drive hit and skip forward pretty hot and find some trouble. Easier to shape the ball with my G25 due to the slightly higher spin, and it doesn't scoot forward so wildly as my Anser. (Same loft, same shaft.)

Watching the shot tracer on pro coverage, the guys using low spin heads I'm noticing the ball is very straight and often doesn't come back for them. It's a trade off. I still like to work the ball some, so a little more spin is a much more friendly setup to allow me to do so. I'm not entirely concerned with all out distance, as I'm long enough.

[hckymeyer]

The spin axis of the ball is going to be very straight with low spin, so the gear effect is lessened and the ball has to start on its intended line that much more, as there is less spin axis working the ball back to the fairway. And low spin with a strong descent angle that is going to provide forward roll very well might kick forward and find more trouble. G25 vs my Anser, I found the Anser pretty tough to control due to the low spin. I had more than one drive hit and skip forward pretty hot and find some trouble. Easier to shape the ball with my G25 due to the slightly higher spin, and it doesn't scoot forward so wildly as my Anser. (Same loft, same shaft.)

Watching the shot tracer on pro coverage, the guys using low spin heads I'm noticing the ball is very straight and often doesn't come back for them. It's a trade off. I still like to work the ball some, so a little more spin is a much more friendly setup to allow me to do so. I'm not entirely concerned with all out distance, as I'm long enough.

I'm thinking you are making a very common mistake in sales.  Selling out of your own pocket.  If you look at the majority of golfers the ball isn't working back towards the fairway.  It is kissing the center of the fairway goodbye and working away from it. 

 

From my experience lower spin would help the majority of people you see out on the course, including myself.  Less backspin on a tilted axis (aka side spin) will help the ball go straighter.  It's much easier to control a straighter shot than it is to control one that is moving left or right a lot.  If a lower spin club can turn a 20 yard draw/fade into a 5 yard draw/fade it will be easier to control for the majority of people out there.

 

It's much easier to control where I need to aim to get the ball in the fairway if I'm not having to deal with a huge hook or slice.

[Paul S]

I'm thinking you are making a very common mistake in sales. Selling out of your own pocket. If you look at the majority of golfers the ball isn't working back towards the fairway. It is kissing the center of the fairway goodbye and working away from it.

 

From my experience lower spin would help the majority of people you see out on the course, including myself. Less backspin on a tilted axis (aka side spin) will help the ball go straighter. It's much easier to control a straighter shot than it is to control one that is moving left or right a lot. If a lower spin club can turn a 20 yard draw/fade into a 5 yard draw/fade it will be easier to control for the majority of people out there.

 

It's much easier to control where I need to aim to get the ball in the fairway if I'm not having to deal with a huge hook or slice.

I actually disagree with that. It's a lot easier for me to rely on moving the ball. If I hit straight, it's usually not going where I want. Granted, if it's usually only 5 yds of right to left that I expect to hit, but sometimes that's all the difference.

 

I'd still rather have the low spin though. It limits the draw. With low spin, I can still aim inside of the right edge of the fairway and be okay.

[dru_]

It is funny, but though I love my SLDR, it can dead pull it harder than any club I have ever hit.

[hckymeyer]

I actually disagree with that. It's a lot easier for me to rely on moving the ball. If I hit straight, it's usually not going where I want. Granted, if it's usually only 5 yds of right to left that I expect to hit, but sometimes that's all the difference.

 

I'd still rather have the low spin though. It limits the draw. With low spin, I can still aim inside of the right edge of the fairway and be okay.

I'm in the other camp. If I play a straight ball and miss by 5yds I'm probably still ok. If I play a 5yd fade and slice it 20yds I'm in trouble.

 

A ball that moves less should be easier for the average golfer to play

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

I'm thinking you are making a very common mistake in sales.  Selling out of your own pocket.  

 

Love that line Brian - I am sooo stealing that one….

[mr_divots]

I'm thinking you are making a very common mistake in sales.  Selling out of your own pocket.  If you look at the majority of golfers the ball isn't working back towards the fairway.  It is kissing the center of the fairway goodbye and working away from it. 

 

From my experience lower spin would help the majority of people you see out on the course, including myself.  Less backspin on a tilted axis (aka side spin) will help the ball go straighter.  It's much easier to control a straighter shot than it is to control one that is moving left or right a lot.  If a lower spin club can turn a 20 yard draw/fade into a 5 yard draw/fade it will be easier to control for the majority of people out there.

 

It's much easier to control where I need to aim to get the ball in the fairway if I'm not having to deal with a huge hook or slice.

The irony is that this forward COG gives the low backspin potential, it also UPS the sidespin potential. The gear effect of the low/back COG we've seen for so many years helps with keeping the ball straighter. You're now talking about that benefit being taken out of peoples' hands. I'm not saying in a skilled player's hands that a good amount of distance potential is there. But for the average player? Forward COG is only going to make things harder for them. It's not as straight or forgiving of a COG location. That's why Phil alluded to being able to manipulate it more, a la his blade irons. It's almost the difference between a GI iron with a shifted low/back COG versus a "blade" with it's COG up with the shaft axis. Kind of the driver equivalent. And all this for about 5 yards potential difference over low/back COG. I personally don't think that tradeoff is worth it.

[dru_]

The irony is that this forward COG gives the low backspin potential, it also UPS the sidespin potential. The gear effect of the low/back COG we've seen for so many years helps with keeping the ball straighter. You're now talking about that benefit being taken out of peoples' hands. I'm not saying in a skilled player's hands that a good amount of distance potential is there. But for the average player? Forward COG is only going to make things harder for them. It's not as straight or forgiving of a COG location. That's why Phil alluded to being able to manipulate it more, a la his blade irons. It's almost the difference between a GI iron with a shifted low/back COG versus a "blade" with it's COG up with the shaft axis. Kind of the driver equivalent. And all this for about 5 yards potential difference over low/back COG. I personally don't think that tradeoff is worth it.

 

Technically speaking, the SLDR is not targeted at every player, the JetSpeed is.  The SLDR is intended for the slightly better players and the ones that are trying to get there.  FWIW, the Big Bertha fits the same marketing opportunity.  

[Tony Covey MGS]

The irony is that this forward COG gives the low backspin potential, it also UPS the sidespin potential. The gear effect of the low/back COG we've seen for so many years helps with keeping the ball straighter. You're now talking about that benefit being taken out of peoples' hands. I'm not saying in a skilled player's hands that a good amount of distance potential is there. But for the average player? Forward COG is only going to make things harder for them. It's not as straight or forgiving of a COG location. That's why Phil alluded to being able to manipulate it more, a la his blade irons. It's almost the difference between a GI iron with a shifted low/back COG versus a "blade" with it's COG up with the shaft axis. Kind of the driver equivalent. And all this for about 5 yards potential difference over low/back COG. I personally don't think that tradeoff is worth it.

 

Wow...so much wrong here.

 

First. There is no such thing as sidespin.

 

Let me say that again for anyone who is confused: There is no such thing as side spin.

 

A ball can only spin along a single axis. Think I'm wrong...put an alignment aid through a tennis ball. Then put another in perpendicular to the first. Now shoot a video showing me how that tennis ball can be rotated along two axes simultaneously.

 

There is only spin (backspin if you will) and axis tilt. Next you're going to tell me that you work the ball by rotating your hands through impact.

 

Axis tilt is a function of path, face angle, and angle of attack. Spin loft, is derived from dynamic loft and angle of attack. The greater the spin loft (difference between dynamic loft and angle of attack), the less compression (effectively ball speed) and more spin.

 

One of the effects of low forward CG is that it produces less dynamic loft than a rear CG placement (this is the reason why we're being told to LOFT UP)...and since spin is spin (again, no such thing as side spin) the result is actually less spin. PERIOD. It also means lower spin loft, which means more ball speed (Trackman describes spin loft as compression itself). Doesn't matter how the axis tilts. Lower spin is always lower spin.

 

All other factors being equal (launch angle, ball speed, axis tilt, etc.), a ball that spins less will ALWAYS flight straighter than a ball that spins more, and there is no reasonable apples to apples scenario where low forward produces more spin than low rear.

 

The idea that higher MOI necessarily produces straighter shots is also largely incorrect. MOI is one of the most misunderstand concepts in golf.

 

In the most simple terms, MOI is a protector of ball speed. Keyword "a" protector, not "the" protector. Moving the CG closer to the face produces more efficient energy transfer (faster native ball speeds), so while you do lose a little (and it's only a little) ballspeed to MOI (the difference between 4000 and 5000 is much less significant than most believe), you're starting from a more efficient place anyway. Worth mentioning, modern face technology also helps to protect ball speed as well, so again, MOI tradeoffs are actually minimal. Keep in mind ball speed is only a single piece of the distance equation. If you can improve launch conditions (keep launch high) while still maintaining manageable spin, you also protect distance. If you launch high, but spin more, you compromise distance.

 

Left/Right deviation (the product of horizontal gearing) is largely controlled by horizontal bulge. That, not MOI, is primarily responsible for managing the implications of the gear effect.

 

Regarding vertical gearing (the roll in bulge and roll), with a higher percentage of face material above the CG, more of what I call beneficial gearing comes into play. When you miss above the CG, the result is LESS Spin, and higher launch. In most cases, this is actually a recipe for distance.

 

The SLDR wants to fly straight (because it spins less), so if there's a knock it's that high toe mishits doen't come back to the fairway like they will with most other drivers. As far as not being able to control the ball...if you're a good enough golfer to intentionally work the ball with regularity, then you're good enough to consistently hit the sweet spot. If that's the case...so-called workability is exclusively a function of path and face angle relative to the target. Once you hit the sweet spot, MOI and the gear effect no longer play any role in the discussion. They only come into play when you miss.

[SPY ZINGER]

Like a reading from the first chapter of Matthew, when Tony writes, I read it standing.

[hckymeyer]

The irony is that this forward COG gives the low backspin potential, it also UPS the sidespin potential. The gear effect of the low/back COG we've seen for so many years helps with keeping the ball straighter. You're now talking about that benefit being taken out of peoples' hands. I'm not saying in a skilled player's hands that a good amount of distance potential is there. But for the average player? Forward COG is only going to make things harder for them. It's not as straight or forgiving of a COG location. That's why Phil alluded to being able to manipulate it more, a la his blade irons. It's almost the difference between a GI iron with a shifted low/back COG versus a "blade" with it's COG up with the shaft axis. Kind of the driver equivalent. And all this for about 5 yards potential difference over low/back COG. I personally don't think that tradeoff is worth it.

 

 

Wow...so much wrong here.

 

First. There is no such thing as sidespin.

 

Let me say that again for anyone who is confused: There is no such thing as side spin.

 

A ball can only spin along a single axis. Think I'm wrong...put an alignment aid through a tennis ball. Then put another in perpendicular to the first. Now shoot a video showing me how that tennis ball can be rotated along two axes simultaneously.

 

There is only spin (backspin if you will) and axis tilt. Next you're going to tell me that you work the ball by rotating your hands through impact.

 

Axis tilt is a function of path, face angle, and angle of attack. Spin loft, is derived from dynamic loft and angle of attack. The greater the spin loft (difference between dynamic loft and angle of attack), the less compression (effectively ball speed) and more spin.

 

One of the effects of low forward CG is that it produces less dynamic loft than a rear CG placement (this is the reason why we're being told to LOFT UP)...and since spin is spin (again, no such thing as side spin) the result is actually less spin. PERIOD. It also means lower spin loft, which means more ball speed (Trackman describes spin loft as compression itself). Doesn't matter how the axis tilts. Lower spin is always lower spin.

 

All other factors being equal (launch angle, ball speed, axis tilt, etc.), a ball that spins less will ALWAYS flight straighter than a ball that spins more, and there is no reasonable apples to apples scenario where low forward produces more spin that low rear.

 

The idea that higher MOI necessarily produces straighter shots is also largely incorrect. MOI is one of the most misunderstand concepts in golf.

 

In the most simple terms, MOI is a protector of ball speed. Keyword "a" protector, not "the" protector. Moving the CG closer to the face produces more efficient energy transfer (faster native ball speeds), so while you do lose a little (and it's only a little) ballspeed to MOI (the difference between 4000 and 5000 is much less significant than most believe), you're starting from a more efficient place anyway. Worth mentioning, modern face technology also helps to protect ball speed as well, so again, MOI tradeoffs are actually minimal. Keep in mind ball speed is only a single piece of the distance equation. If you can improve launch conditions (keep launch high) while still maintaining manageable spin, you also protect distance. If you launch high, but spin more, you compromise distance.

 

Left/Right deviation (the product of horizontal gearing) is largely controlled by horizontal bulge. That, not MOI, is primarily responsible for managing the implications of the gear effect.

 

Regarding vertical gearing (the roll in bulge and roll), with a higher percentage of face material above the CG, more of what I call beneficial gearing comes into play. When you miss above the CG, the result is LESS Spin, and higher launch. In most cases, this is actually a recipe for distance.

 

The SLDR wants to fly straight (because it spin less), so if there's a knock it's that high toe mishits doen't come back to the fairway like they will with most other drivers. As far as not being able to control the ball...if you're a good enough golfer to intentionally work the ball with regularity, then you're good enough to consistently hit the sweet spot. If that's the case...so-called workability is exclusively a function of path and face angle relative to the target. Once you hit the sweet spot, MOI and the gear effect no longer play any role in the discussion. They only come into play when you miss.

 

What he said

 

Thanks T, I was trying to figure out how to answer and as usual you were able to construct a much more elegant and understandable answer than I ever could

 

 

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

We need a "like" button!

[revkev]

In response to T's post what is the downside to the SLDR assuming that it's properly fit?  Is there a downside? 

 

I can get the center of the clubface on the ball fairly consistently and I can launch it - here to fore I haven't been able to launch it past a certain point without spining enough to negatively impact the distance it travels.  It seems to me that the SLDR has the potential to eliminate that issue for me at least.

 

Right or wrong?

[Tony Covey MGS]

In response to T's post what is the downside to the SLDR assuming that it's properly fit?  Is there a downside? 

 

I can get the center of the clubface on the ball fairly consistently and I can launch it - here to fore I haven't been able to launch it past a certain point without spining enough to negatively impact the distance it travels.  It seems to me that the SLDR has the potential to eliminate that issue for me at least.

 

Right or wrong?

 

Exactly right. SLDR (and JetSpeed) allow you to add loft while increasing spin in smaller proportions than you would with most any other driver. TaylorMade says optimal launch is 17°/1700 RPM, and while Trackman optimals suggest that's not absolute depending on your angle of attack, the point is (TaylorMade says) that everyone can benefit from higher launch and low spin.

 

Isn't that what everybody is looking for in a shaft? Same rules apply.

 

Conversely issues arise when you don't produce enough spin to keep the ball in the air long enough to achieve optimal distance. From a fitting perspective, the approach usually is to find a way to add spin (effectively this is the Big Berth Alpha gravity core up approach). The SLDR approach is to add more loft. Spin will increase too, but less so than it does with other drivers.

 

Taking away what TaylorMade or anybody else trying to sell a driver says, the ball flight models suggest that adding loft has a more positive (and direct) impact on increasing distance than does lowering spin. Point being, even if you're able to add loft while maintaining your 'normal' spin rates, it's still a net gain.

 

The one ripple, I wouldn't suggest that anyone try and guess what loft they need in an SLDR. In our driver test we had some guys add about a half a degree (compared to other clubs in the test), while others settled on 2. The 14° wasn't available at the time of our testing, and I suspect that at least two of our guys would have benefitted tremendously from being able to go 14° +/- 1.5°.

 

SLDR has the potential to be a game-changer, but if it's not properly fit, it's more likely than most to perform like one of the worst drivers ever made.

[Walkerjames]

The fitter at the kingdom said that I should be in a 14* head with the loft up 1.5 degree. That being said the 12* head lofted up 1.5 degrees is the best driver I have ever hit- I am hitting it straighter and futher that any previous driver.

 

But you also need the right shaft! I hit The same head with a different shaft and the ball was dropping out if the air like a rock.

[revkev]

The fitter at the kingdom said that I should be in a 14* head with the loft up 1.5 degree. That being said the 12* head lofted up 1.5 degrees is the best driver I have ever hit- I am hitting it straighter and futher that any previous driver.

But you also need the right shaft! I hit The same head with a different shaft and the ball was dropping out if the air like a rock.

Talk about the ultimate risk/reward. Thanks T and walker

[Blade]

Excellent T. I started to reply about the side spin nonsense but it was going to be too long on my phone at lunch.  But you explained it better than I would have anyway.  

 

In one post he says with the low spin it will fly too straight and not come back to the fairway and the next post he says the side spin will go up.  That was funny.

[revkev]

Excellent T. I started to reply about the side spin nonsense but it was going to be too long on my phone at lunch.  But you explained it better than I would have anyway.  

 

In one post he says with the low spin it will fly too straight and not come back to the fairway and the next post he says the side spin will go up.  That was funny.

But to be fair mr divots referenced the ball turning on its axis in that first post. I'd give him a pass on the side spin thing. It's an easy enough thing to say even if you understand the concept rightly. What resonated for me from T's comments was the reality that spin is spin and if the SLDR head produces less spin it produces less spin regardless of the axis the spin is turning on.

[Blade]

Yea that's what I mean. Lower back spin doesn't mean side spin goes up. It's just lower spin period.

But the tilt of the axis is determined by the D plane, not high or low spin.

 

That said, higher spin with say a 10° axis tilt will turn quicker than a lower spin with the same tilt.

[Stoffer]

Unfortunately what I keep hearing in discussions about the SLDR driver is I need a $300-400 club, with another $100+ shaft, during a $150+ ? fitting to get the optimum results.  All this for the driver only.  Although the results sound great it at times makes me less interested in the club, not more.  I suppose this is true for all drivers but seems to be exaggerated with the SLDR.

[dru_]

Unfortunately what I keep hearing in discussions about the SLDR driver is I need a $300-400 club, with another $100+ shaft, during a $150+ ? fitting to get the optimum results.  All this for the driver only.  Although the results sound great it at times makes me less interested in the club, not more.  I suppose this is true for all drivers but seems to be exaggerated with the SLDR.

 

I don't think the SLDR is bad with the stock shaft, but I think most of the stores are failing miserably at setting the stock settings up for people to test them.  You have to walk in and know that you want more loft.  

 

I had some time to kill last night while the daughter was at gymnastics.  So I stepped into one of the local shops.  Grabbed a SLDR off the shelf, and let the guy do the sales speak. I tell him I play with an RBZ at 8.5 ( which was accurate at one point last summer). so he immediately sets the SLDR 10.5 to 8*.  The result? not good (at this point, he starts pushing a Ping G25).  I asks him to adjust the SLDR loft back to 10.5  and see what happens. The results are more consistent with what we expect to see with the SLDR.

 

The Ping G25, btw, did had crazy high spin rates for me to start with, but I knew that going int. 

 

And that is the real problem here, one that I do not know how TMaG is going to overcome.  Salespeople just don't as a rule have the knowledge.

[Blade]

You're right. I wonder how many people will put it back on the shelf without seeing its potential as a result.

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

You're right. I wonder how many people will put it back on the shelf without seeing its potential as a result.

 

Talked with my pro - a TMag staffer and fitter - last year about the SLDR and he wasn't that crazy about it. Now that he's had the chance to be trained on how to fit for it, he's much more enthusiastic about the SLDR.  Big demo day here in MN next week - can't wait to check it out...

[Mr_Theoo]

You're right. I wonder how many people will put it back on the shelf without seeing its potential as a result.

The first time I tested it in stores I did. I picked up the same loft that I was currently playing. And I had so so results and just figured it wasn't for me.

[GolfSpy WD]

We seriously need a like button on this forum. There's so much gold in this thread.

[Blade]

We seriously need a like button on this forum. There's so much gold in this thread.

LIKE!