Bifurcation/Ball Roll Back Discussion

[StrokerAce]

2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

 

 

You mean the ones that train and workout??? Hmmm.....

He must mean the ones that can hit the sweet spot on the club every single time with the proper launch angle and spin. Diet and exercise is like doing that on steroids.

[StrokerAce]

2 minutes ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

but couldn't one argue that weight training/fitness was also for recovery? In order to play 4 consecutive rounds and multiple weeks and still be at the top of your game you have to be in top shape to be consistently good.

[LICC]

4 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

but couldn't one argue that weight training/fitness was also for recovery? In order to play 4 consecutive rounds and multiple weeks and still be at the top of your game you have to be in top shape to be consistently good.

Absolutely. I'm not saying that fitness and weight training doesn't have any benefits. Increasing stamina is a benefit, and being able to maintain your form in late rounds is a benefit.  I'm saying that the increases in distance on Tour from the early 1990s to today are predominantly the result of equipment advances and not from more players doing weight training.

Edited February 4, 2021 by LICC

[Chip Strokes]

8 minutes ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

what exactly is your argument here? you keep saying you have a problem with the players on tour getting longer, but you continue to provide stats proving they aren’t actually getting longer. 

do you have a point? or are you just here to argue?

[fixyurdivot]

9 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

No doubt. Although in the pic on the left he was still a world class top 0.05% in the world player.

The edge between the world's best is so slim and any way a player can get just a slight edge they'll take it. Fitness is a perfect example of that. But, it's not just fitness -- look at Scott Stallings; he's shredded... and 251st in the world.

https://www.golfdigest.com/story/what-it-took-for-scott-stallings-to-become-the-tours-most-shredded-pro

 

I guess my point is that way more players today have moved towards or squarely into the "ripped" category than decades ago.  This is surely a contributing factor in the average distances gained... but as you point out with the Stalling's example, not a sure bet that scoring average follows along .

[Shapotomous]

Not sure what this means but Rory gained 3 mph ss from 2009 through 2016 gaining 2 yards in distance and gained 1.8 mph from 2016 to 2021 gaining 14 yards distance.

Lots of things could contribute to that jump....equipment now provides a larger sweet spot so slightly mishit drives still carry or head weight adjustment to lower ball spin but so could tweaking his swing to optimize launch angle.

[TR1PTIK]

6 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

I guess my point is that way more players today have moved towards or squarely into the "ripped" category than decades ago.  This is surely a contributing factor in the average distances gained... but as you point out with the Stalling's example, not a sure bet that scoring average follows along .

It's important to note that Scott Stallings didn't lose weight and get fit so he could score better or hit the ball further. He started working out to radically change his life!!!

https://www.si.com/golf/2020/03/05/scott-stallings-weight-loss-golf-pga-tour

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/golf/2020/07/03/scott-stallings-pga-tour/5371199002/

https://www.startribune.com/golfer-scott-stallings-leaves-his-poor-health-habits-behind-him/512274722/

[StrokerAce]

1 minute ago, TR1PTIK said:

It's important to note that Scott Stallings didn't lose weight and get fit so he could score better or hit the ball further. He started working out to radically change his life!!!

https://www.si.com/golf/2020/03/05/scott-stallings-weight-loss-golf-pga-tour

https://www.freep.com/story/sports/golf/2020/07/03/scott-stallings-pga-tour/5371199002/

https://www.startribune.com/golfer-scott-stallings-leaves-his-poor-health-habits-behind-him/512274722/

Absolutely! And something to be admired.

[TR1PTIK]

24 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

He must mean the ones that can hit the sweet spot on the club every single time with the proper launch angle and spin. Diet and exercise is like doing that on steroids.

You're not wrong, but I've met plenty of amateurs who can find the middle of the clubface and will never sniff elite competition because they don't have the firepower or a complete game. 

[LICC]

17 minutes ago, Chip Strokes said:

what exactly is your argument here? you keep saying you have a problem with the players on tour getting longer, but you continue to provide stats proving they aren’t actually getting longer. 

do you have a point? or are you just here to argue?

[StrokerAce]

Beyond club technology advancements there are also additional equipment advancements that have had a major impact.

Data collection, trackman, GCQuad, that-thing-you-stand-on-that-shows-your-weight-distribution, simple launch monitors, etc.

All of this tech has helped to learn the best ways to make the swing more efficient, powerful and consistent....resulting in added length.

[StrokerAce]

2 minutes ago, TR1PTIK said:

You're not wrong, but I've met plenty of amateurs who can find the middle of the clubface and will never sniff elite competition because they don't have the firepower or a complete game. 

No argument here. 

I've played with plenty of people that can hit mammoth drives consistently but you get them inside of 100 yards where they need a controlled shot and they completely fall apart.

This isn't baseball where the goal is to hit the ball as far as possible and that's it.

[TR1PTIK]

2 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

I've played with plenty of people that can hit mammoth drives consistently but you get them inside of 100 yards where they need a controlled shot and they completely fall apart.

I might be one of those people... 

[TR1PTIK]

10 minutes ago, StrokerAce said:

Beyond club technology advancements there are also additional equipment advancements that have had a major effect.

Data collection, trackman, GCQuad, that-thing-you-stand-on-that-shows-your-weight-distribution, simple launch monitors, etc.

All of this tech has helped to learn the best ways to make the swing more efficient, powerful and consistent....resulting in added length.

 A HUGE omission in this discussion!

[FrogginBullfish]

The driving distance stat as recorded on the PGA Tour's website is decidedly incomplete anyway. It's reasonably okay at identifying the longest players on Tour though but SG: OTT is a much better metric of driving performance.

They measure the total distance a ball goes regardless of finish position on two holes a round and that's how its measured. So of the 14 holes on a golf course that require a drive, only two are measured for your driving distance stat and there's no discerning between drives that end up in the fairway, this usually adds additional and sometimes quite significant roll to the carry, or if it ends up in the rough, less roll. They select two holes that are going in opposite directions too in an attempt to counteract any wind benefits and they try to select holes that it's reasonably certain players will hit driver on, but it's certainly possible that some iron or 3W tee shots are sneaking into the stat for some of the longer guys.

Not sure what this means but Rory gained 3 mph ss from 2009 through 2016 gaining 2 yards in distance and gained 1.8 mph from 2016 to 2021 gaining 14 yards distance.
Lots of things could contribute to that jump....equipment now provides a larger sweet spot so slightly mishit drives still carry or head weight adjustment to lower ball spin but so could tweaking his swing to optimize launch angle.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[Middler]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Resorting to personal insults because someone provides information contrary to your view shows more about your poor character than anything else.

If that makes you feel better about yourself, have at it...

[null]

55 minutes ago, LICC said:

So tour averages have hardly budged in the last 15 years, and that graph doesn't include any correlation to player overall fitness/swing speed or advancements in club fitting and coaching due to launch monitors.

[Kenny B]

1 hour ago, LICC said:

Rory started his weight training in 2011.

Rory average driving distance in 2009: 305 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2013: 302 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2015: 304  yards

Rory average driving distance in 2016: 307 yards

Stats came be used to support any conclusion.  For example,  continuing your Rory list...

Rory average driving distance in 2017: 317 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2018: 320 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2019: 313 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2020: 314 yards

Rory average driving distance in 2021: 322 yards, so far...

So in the last 5 years, Rory is about 10 yards longer on average, even though he already had bulked up and equipment specs haven't changed.

However, I think the R&A and USGA are looking at more than just average driving distance when assessing distance effects on courses.  I was amazed at how many players hit long drives these days. 

For the 2020 season there were 255 players on the PGA Tour that hit the ball 350+ yards.  Even Zach Johnson topped 350 yards at The Memorial.  Many were at altitude, surely wind was a factor, but the course setup also had an effect.

 

[LICC]

15 minutes ago, jlukes said:

So tour averages have hardly budged in the last 15 years, and that graph doesn't include any correlation to player overall fitness/swing speed or advancements in club fitting and coaching due to launch monitors.

Do you have any data or direct examples to show any correlation between player fitness and distance? I've been giving numerous examples and statistics showing otherwise.

[THEZIPR23]

 

Strength doesn't matter in golf.