Loft, Lie and Swing-weight - Are these checked against manufacture before testing?

[FromRightToLeft]

Hello,

I was looking over the game improvement irons testing that was done and having recently watched a video on youtube about manufacture's specs often being off to what they say, I was wondering if you guys test that?

For example I learned that OEM's usually have a one degree allowance for driver lofts. That means that if you get "fit" for a nine degree loft and they order it in, it may be eight degrees or even 10 degrees. Same with the "test" model you hit while being fit. You might be hitting a eight degree loft you think is a nine, and end up getting a ten when it gets ordered in. That's crazy to me.

I have heard the same about irons. That the swing weights are often all over the map as well as lofts and lie angles. So I was wondering if the test clubs are checked before testing against the manufacture specs and if not, why? 

I'm pretty new here so this has likely been addressed. If so could someone point me in the right direction to a thread or article?

If it hasn't I would love to see MYGOLFSPY run a test on the manufactures to see who is most accurate and who is not and I'd love to see this information being included in all future club testing.

 

Cheers!

 

James

[clafoone]

S sounds familiar
, I think this has been addressed in mgs, can't recall when.
Peesonally, I check all loft/lie/face angle when I purchase a club or clubhead. Most are off by at least 1 degree and I bend them accordingly (irons, hybrids, and fairway woods). If I can't bend it, I return it.

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[FromRightToLeft]

3 hours ago, clafoone said:

S sounds familiar
, I think this has been addressed in mgs, can't recall when.
Peesonally, I check all loft/lie/face angle when I purchase a club or clubhead. Most are off by at least 1 degree and I bend them accordingly (irons, hybrids, and fairway woods). If I can't bend it, I return it.

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I figured it had been discussed here. It was new information for me. I just assumed the gear was correct to what the specs said. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Each manufacturer has a tolerance for all of that and it’s a lot bigger than anyone would imagine. 

[DaveP043]

I got to tour the Ping factory in Phoenix a few years back.  Every iron is built to a specific spec, and every one is checked for loft and lie.  Its a computerized deal, the machine reads the bar code on the order sheet, the club goes into a oft/lie sensor, and the assembler is told how to bend the head to get to the right loft and lie.  If I remember right, their tolerance was 1/2 degree or less.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, DaveP043 said:

I got to tour the Ping factory in Phoenix a few years back.  Every iron is built to a specific spec, and every one is checked for loft and lie.  Its a computerized deal, the machine reads the bar code on the order sheet, the club goes into a oft/lie sensor, and the assembler is told how to bend the head to get to the right loft and lie.  If I remember right, their tolerance was 1/2 degree or less.

Ping is really good at ensuring tight tolerances and are one of the few brands that builds clubs to the correct swing weight especially on woods. Most brands will try to get close to a requested swing weight or when a club is ordered at something other than standard length they will attempt to swing weight it but they have a point or two tolerance.

[FromRightToLeft]

2 hours ago, DaveP043 said:

I got to tour the Ping factory in Phoenix a few years back.  Every iron is built to a specific spec, and every one is checked for loft and lie.  Its a computerized deal, the machine reads the bar code on the order sheet, the club goes into a oft/lie sensor, and the assembler is told how to bend the head to get to the right loft and lie.  If I remember right, their tolerance was 1/2 degree or less.

Yes, I have heard that PIng are one of the best big manufactures in this regard. Still half a degree could be a big change on a driver or 3 wood. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, FromRightToLeft said:

Yes, I have heard that PIng are one of the best big manufactures in this regard. Still half a degree could be a big change on a driver or 3 wood. 

The good thing with pingvis they will digitally measure the loft upon request and get you close to ordered loft. Imo 1/2 degree on any club will be hardly noticeable to the vast majority of golfers including some pros 

[FromRightToLeft]

23 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The good thing with pingvis they will digitally measure the loft upon request and get you close to ordered loft. Imo 1/2 degree on any club will be hardly noticeable to the vast majority of golfers including some pros 

With the money you pay for a new driver I don't see any reason they shouldn't be exactly what you order. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

38 minutes ago, FromRightToLeft said:

With the money you pay for a new driver I don't see any reason they shouldn't be exactly what you order. 

The manufacturing tolerances coming off the line are pretty big to start with. These clubs are mass produced and then assembled and usually the assembly takes place in another country. Ping is one of a few companies that assembles in the US. The cost of labor to get the exact spec would raise the cost of the club even more. 

Anyone looking for exact specs will be disappointed unfortunately. Also unfortunately the large consumer base that isn’t as informed as forum members won’t know this or know to check. Those who are better informed usually have them checked once they get them in hand.

other option is to order pieces separately and have a shop build them out or diy.

[FromRightToLeft]

12 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

The manufacturing tolerances coming off the line are pretty big to start with. These clubs are mass produced and then assembled and usually the assembly takes place in another country. Ping is one of a few companies that assembles in the US. The cost of labor to get the exact spec would raise the cost of the club even more. 

Anyone looking for exact specs will be disappointed unfortunately. Also unfortunately the large consumer base that isn’t as informed as forum members won’t know this or know to check. Those who are better informed usually have them checked once they get them in hand.

other option is to order pieces separately and have a shop build them out or diy.

Yeah I agree with everything you said aside from the cost of labor being a hindrance. Driver prices have increased, what 50% in the last 10 years? They can afford to do it right, sadly they won't though. As you said, the vast, vast majority are going to be uninformed like I was until recently. My Golf Spy is starting to change these things though. I'd love to see them do a test on all the club manufactures. Buy a full set from each manufacturer in big box stores and test who is the most accurate to what their specs say. 

 

I'd love it if someone from @MYGOLFSPY chime in here. Would you consider testing this?

[golfertrb]

I am one who wants specs to be exact. For the last 10 years or so I have had a club maker build all my clubs with the exception of my current irons which were done by Ping. As has already been stated, Ping is one of the very best for getting things right and a half degree is incredibly tight. I don't think most pros would be able to distinguish a half degree though I'm sure some could. There are stories about Tiger that defy understanding along those lines. I, too, would be interested in seeing testing in regards to specs. I have heard that most driver lofts are higher than stated across companies but I would be interested in seeing data to either support or debunk that. It would interesting to see a "best of" for companies getting their stated specs correct.


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[cnosil]

7 hours ago, FromRightToLeft said:

Yeah I agree with everything you said aside from the cost of labor being a hindrance. Driver prices have increased, what 50% in the last 10 years? They can afford to do it right, sadly they won't though. As you said, the vast, vast majority are going to be uninformed like I was until recently. My Golf Spy is starting to change these things though. I'd love to see them do a test on all the club manufactures. Buy a full set from each manufacturer in big box stores and test who is the most accurate to what their specs say. 

 

I'd love it if someone from @MYGOLFSPY chime in here. Would you consider testing this?

I am pretty sure that with most of the most wanted test, the staff does check and post the specs for the tested clubs.   

[clafoone]

See this link from MGS 2017
https://mygolfspy.com/mgs-labs-spec-check-2017-drivers/

In regards to manufacturer specs vs actial.
Can't imagine it would be much different with irons.



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[RickyBobby_PR]

9 hours ago, FromRightToLeft said:

Yeah I agree with everything you said aside from the cost of labor being a hindrance. Driver prices have increased, what 50% in the last 10 years? They can afford to do it right, sadly they won't though. As you said, the vast, vast majority are going to be uninformed like I was until recently. My Golf Spy is starting to change these things though. I'd love to see them do a test on all the club manufactures. Buy a full set from each manufacturer in big box stores and test who is the most accurate to what their specs say. 

 

I'd love it if someone from @MYGOLFSPY chime in here. Would you consider testing this?

50% isn’t even close to the increase in driver costs the last 10 years. The have been in the $350-500 range that entire time, and we are just now seeing slight increases above $500. But there has been a small increase because costs have gone up due to new materials, higher cost of production, higher transportations costs, higher cost for materials and labor, more premium shaft offerings as stock. Increase in budgets for marketing which will vary depending on company but that accounts for a good portion of the cost, plus increase in r&d budgets. It wasn’t cheap for Callaway to pay for the use of the supercomputer to design the epic flash

Just look around this place and other forums or online groups and there’s lots of people who don’t buy new or are saying $500-575 is too much for a driver or that golf equipment in general is expensive. If the companies manufactured to exact specs and then built every order to exact specs the prices would be near or above what PXG was charging for drivers or what the costs of brands like Miura costs. That wouldn’t go over well from the public and companies wouldn’t hit their sales numbers. 

[FromRightToLeft]

13 hours ago, clafoone said:

See this link from MGS 2017
https://mygolfspy.com/mgs-labs-spec-check-2017-drivers/

In regards to manufacturer specs vs actial.
Can't imagine it would be much different with irons.



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Cheers thanks man

[Hook DeLoft]

I took a demo Callaway iron to the course last week.  The loft was supposed to be 30 degrees.  It seemed to me that it was launching a little higher and flying a little shorter than I expected.  When I took it back to the shop, I told the owner about my observations.  He then measure the loft of the iron.  It was 32 degrees instead of 30.  However, this was a demo iron that people had been hitting off a mat in the store and was forged construction.  It is certainly possible the lie had been weakened by repeated strikes on the mat.  Also possible that it came from the factory 2 degrees weaker than spec'd.  I agree that it would be great for mgs to measure the actual lofts of all the irons that are tested.

[revkev]

Well it seems to me that we've covered everything that needed to be covered here - MGS has done that test, what they found was pretty startling, Ping is the best in regards to coming very close to perfect - chances are very slim that any of us would really notice something that was off by 1/2 degree in driver or 1 degree in iron but we think we would and since it might be in our heads I'd suggest you take your new clubs somewhere to have them checked before putting them in play - then you know (the exception being Ping.)

 

Great question BTW

[Rickp]

Well it seems to me that we've covered everything that needed to be covered here - MGS has done that test, what they found was pretty startling, Ping is the best in regards to coming very close to perfect - chances are very slim that any of us would really notice something that was off by 1/2 degree in driver or 1 degree in iron but we think we would and since it might be in our heads I'd suggest you take your new clubs somewhere to have them checked before putting them in play - then you know (the exception being Ping.)
 
Great question BTW

I was told years ago by a Pro that your irons loft/lie should be checked at purchase and periodically (yearly, off season) to insure they are correct. I’ve only had them done that once and irons only needed little adjustment.


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[revkev]

I was told years ago by a Pro that your irons loft/lie should be checked at purchase and periodically (yearly, off season) to insure they are correct. I’ve only had them done that once and irons only needed little adjustment.


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That’s true of forged irons - I’m not so sure of the need to check cast ones. But again it’s better to check if you need to.

I just had my irons and wedges checked and everyone was what it said it was.


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[Rickp]

That’s true of forged irons - I’m not so sure of the need to check cast ones. But again it’s better to check if you need to.

I just had my irons and wedges checked and everyone was what it said it was.


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I doubt I would ever do them again. Only if I damage a club or if it seems to be a problem. I’m not good enough.


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[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, revkev said:

Well it seems to me that we've covered everything that needed to be covered here - MGS has done that test, what they found was pretty startling, Ping is the best in regards to coming very close to perfect - chances are very slim that any of us would really notice something that was off by 1/2 degree in driver or 1 degree in iron but we think we would and since it might be in our heads I'd suggest you take your new clubs somewhere to have them checked before putting them in play - then you know (the exception being Ping.)

 

Great question BTW

Finally got around to watching the tiger woods project on golf channel today. He is a freak of nature with what he can see and feel with specs. TM folks were saying how their experts couldn’t spot something like a 1/2 draftee but tiger could see it in flight and looking at it. If experts who look at gear everyday can’t spot it I doubt there’s an avg golfer who can.

An interesting thing with the ball, tiger could tell one ball was rolling out 4” more than another. Everyone was like there’s no way to tell that unless using a machine and making the exact same stroke. They took the two balls and tested and sure enough tiger was right