Iron Fitting (for a filthy casual)

[Colin K]

Hello fam,

I was looking into Takomo after seeing the 2023 article from MGS and had a question... on their site they asked only for shaft stiffness when looking to buy a set of irons. Do other things like length, grips, club head type etc. make that much of a difference?  I'm 5'11, left-handed, and a fairly casual golfer, so not looking for perfection tailored to my genomic code. I know getting a fitting would be ideal and not that difficult, but just curious as to how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.

 

 

[cnosil]

21 minutes ago, Colin K said:

Hello fam,

I was looking into Takomo after seeing the 2023 article from MGS and had a question... on their site they asked only for shaft stiffness when looking to buy a set of irons. Do other things like length, grips, club head type etc. make that much of a difference?  I'm 5'11, left-handed, and a fairly casual golfer, so not looking for perfection tailored to my genomic code. I know getting a fitting would be ideal and not that difficult, but just curious as to how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.

It will generally come down to the golfer and how sensitive they are to the various changes.   It is also important to understand that there is no such thing as “standard” in the golf industry.   Standard length for one company or club could be longer or shorter than another.  
 

For clubhead, it comes down to forgiveness and what you want to accomplish from a ball control perspective.  Grips are typically based on hand size.  length toes into height , golf posture, arm length, etc.   if you want a basic idea, do something like the Ping static fitting and understand what actual length/lie numbers that translates too.  Typically that is a starting point.   I don’t know what “casual golfer” means to you or what you want your desired playing level to be.  
 

People take all kinds of routes with their golf equipment.   How much of a difference does it make?  Some are fine with buying off the rack and just adapt and some need a more precise fitting.   A recent article about Billy Horschel indicated that his clubs weren’t properly fitted and he made drastic improvements to his game by simply altering lie angle.  Other people on the forum will tell you that fittings are useless.   It’s really up to you to decide. 

[Colin K]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

It will generally come down to the golfer and how sensitive they are to the various changes.   It is also important to understand that there is no such thing as “standard” in the golf industry.   Standard length for one company or club could be longer or shorter than another.  
 

For clubhead, it comes down to forgiveness and what you want to accomplish from a ball control perspective.  Grips are typically based on hand size.  length toes into height , golf posture, arm length, etc.   if you want a basic idea, do something like the Ping static fitting and understand what actual length/lie numbers that translates too.  Typically that is a starting point.   I don’t know what “casual golfer” means to you or what you want your desired playing level to be.  
 

People take all kinds of routes with their golf equipment.   How much of a difference does it make?  Some are fine with buying off the rack and just adapt and some need a more precise fitting.   A recent article about Billy Horschel indicated that his clubs weren’t properly fitted and he made drastic improvements to his game by simply altering lie angle.  Other people on the forum will tell you that fittings are useless.   It’s really up to you to decide. 

Thanks for the input. I think by casual, I mean that I don't play that often and probably wouldn't want to change my swing too much to fit a set of clubs, in retrospect. I don't mind playing through changes for fun as part of the game, but sounds like it might be easier for me to just have someone point me to a specific set of clubs based on my swing type then.
 

[twyatt700]

45 minutes ago, Colin K said:

Hello fam,

I was looking into Takomo after seeing the 2023 article from MGS and had a question... on their site they asked only for shaft stiffness when looking to buy a set of irons. Do other things like length, grips, club head type etc. make that much of a difference?  I'm 5'11, left-handed, and a fairly casual golfer, so not looking for perfection tailored to my genomic code. I know getting a fitting would be ideal and not that difficult, but just curious as to how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.

 

 

I think fitting is worth it if you just want to perform a little better. I have found that a good fitter will fit the club to your swing so you can get the most enjoyment out of the game. I was fit into my iron for the first time last year and saw an immediate impact on my ball striking. If anything I would just figure out what you line, length and shaft should be and get a general sense of your swing weight to have an idea. Then you can just buy from a Takomo or Sub 70 with knowing your specs. 

[twyatt700]

3 minutes ago, twyatt700 said:

I think fitting is worth it if you just want to perform a little better. I have found that a good fitter will fit the club to your swing so you can get the most enjoyment out of the game. I was fit into my iron for the first time last year and saw an immediate impact on my ball striking. If anything I would just figure out what you line, length and shaft should be and get a general sense of your swing weight to have an idea. Then you can just buy from a Takomo or Sub 70 with knowing your specs. 

Also it looks like you can customize the shaft (with KBS), lie angle and length. I would check out Sub 70 they have a few more adjustments and their customer service is amazing! My first set I ever purchased was from them and after about 5 rounds I was struggling with the shaft and they re-shafted the whole set free of charge.

[Colin K]

1 minute ago, twyatt700 said:

Also it looks like you can customize the shaft (with KBS), lie angle and length. I would check out Sub 70 they have a few more adjustments and their customer service is amazing! My first set I ever purchased was from them and after about 5 rounds I was struggling with the shaft and they re-shafted the whole set free of charge.

Haha ironically I live about 45 mins from Sub70 HQ, and I have been eyeing there for a fitting (and a solid price) ... but wasn't sure I'd get enough out of them this summer. It likely will be where I go as I've only heard good things. 

Thanks for the info as I don't know what to even ask for or consider myself with stuff like loft or shaft. Sounds like the easier route overall to just have someone tell me.

[twyatt700]

1 minute ago, Colin K said:

Haha ironically I live about 45 mins from Sub70 HQ, and I have been eyeing there for a fitting (and a solid price) ... but wasn't sure I'd get enough out of them this summer. It likely will be where I go as I've only heard good things. 

Thanks for the info as I don't know what to even ask for or consider myself with stuff like loft or shaft. Sounds like the easier route overall to just have someone tell me.

For sure, I'm pretty sure they will give you a fitting at their HQ, it would probably be free with a purchase too but I would check. I agree though, I used to like to tinker and try to figure that stuff out on my own, but now that I've bee fit for everything except my wedges and putter it's made the game a little bit more enjoyable. I would say it just feels like you can swing free and don't have to fight the club to get it into a good position. But that's just been my experience. 

[Shrek74]

29 minutes ago, Colin K said:

Haha ironically I live about 45 mins from Sub70 HQ, and I have been eyeing there for a fitting (and a solid price) ... but wasn't sure I'd get enough out of them this summer. It likely will be where I go as I've only heard good things. 

Thanks for the info as I don't know what to even ask for or consider myself with stuff like loft or shaft. Sounds like the easier route overall to just have someone tell me.

If you live that close, I'd definitely sign up for a fitting from them. It's free first of all (no purchase necessary I don't think, but you'll likely want to due to killer prices/deals on quality clubs), but you'll also end up getting some level of "lesson" from their guys. I've heard that from multiple people who've gone for fittings. I play both Takomo irons and Sub70 woods/wedges/putter. But I had my specs from other fittings going in and was able to set up the clubs appropriately. It would be worth your time to go to The Seventy and get fit and then decide what to do after that.

[Middler]

1 hour ago, twyatt700 said:

I think fitting is worth it if you just want to perform a little better. I have found that a good fitter will fit the club to your swing so you can get the most enjoyment out of the game. I was fit into my iron for the first time last year and saw an immediate impact on my ball striking. If anything I would just figure out what you line, length and shaft should be and get a general sense of your swing weight to have an idea. Then you can just buy from a Takomo or Sub 70 with knowing your specs. 

I wonder how many players, especially those with double digit handicaps, actually 'perform better/get more enjoyment' as a result of a fitting (unless they don't even know their shaft flex)? I suspect it's a small minority, but it's hard to know as most players would never admit fitting didn't translate to better performance - which I take as scoring. Every player buyer goes through a honeymoon with new clubs, fitted or not, but the performance reverts to mean more often than not IME.

I know quite a few people who've had fittings of varying quality, and none of them are scoring any better than before.

My favorite case is a guy I play with often, who got a full bag custom fit through Club Champion for $5000, and if anything he's worse than before. He recommends fittings even though he has nothing to show for it.

OTOH there are a few others I play with regularly who have improved changing clubs, without a fitting. Clearest case a guy who replaced his ancient Ping drive/fairways with Callaway Mavrik driver/fairway and IS hitting longer and scoring better. I know lots of guys who buy new clubs without a fitting and are totally happy with them. Believing in the clubs you have is half the battle...

The best players I know could beat the rest of us just the same with our clubs...

[dru_]

12 minutes ago, Middler said:

I wonder how many players, especially those with double digit handicaps, actually 'perform better/get more enjoyment' as a result of a fitting (unless they don't even know their shaft flex)? I suspect it's a small minority, but it's hard to know as most players would never admit fitting didn't translate to better performance - which I take as scoring. Every player buyer goes through a honeymoon with new clubs, fitted or not, but the performance reverts to mean more often than not IME.

I know quite a few people who've had fittings of varying quality, and none of them are scoring any better than before.

My favorite case is a guy I play with often, who got a full bag custom fit through Club Champion for $5000, and if anything he's worse than before. He recommends fittings even though he has nothing to show for it.

OTOH there are a few others I play with regularly who have improved changing clubs, without a fitting. Clearest case a guy who replaced his ancient Ping drive/fairways with Callaway Mavrik driver/fairway and IS hitting longer and scoring better. I know lots of guys who buy new clubs without a fitting and are totally happy with them. Believing in the clubs you have is half the battle...

This is an interesting take, and one that can have some legitimacy, but there is a LOT to unpack in it.

I'm gonna be a bit of a curmudgeon here and say that tying a fit to a score is a nigh impossible thing to do, simply because the headspace part of the game can undo almost anything.

Let me slip off into another sport for an example.  Cycling. 

Anyone can buy a bike off the shelf, straddle it, adjust a seat and some handlebars and take off riding.

Let's say you buy a little higher end, the shop is going to spend a little extra time to use their experience to set the bike up in a manner to make it more comfortable and faster / more stable.

Now you want to really maximize your potential.  You go get fit by a reputable bike fitter. Sometimes that fit will require some new hardware, most of the time it can be accomplished with adjustments. ( but there are always 'fitters' out there whose job is to upsell equipment as part of the fit process ).

Each of these levels of 'fit' will bring incremental, but perhaps marginal, gains, and there is a limit to what those gains really are that is dictated by the fitness and body type of the person getting fit.

The same dynamic exists within Golf, with the reality that many fitters are tied to selling equipment too.  New sticks, hitting 30 shots on the range as a fit, off the shelf can provide a marginal gain. An eyeball fit by an experienced golf pro, or fitter, can again provide marginal gains. A full bag fit by a dedicated fitter can provide a player with a bag of sticks optimized for the swing the used in the fitting.

But, just like that cycling fit, there are limits to the potential gains, and those limits are imposed by the player. However, unlike cycling where the geometry of the bike produces a remarkably static motion, golf engenders too much freedom in the range of motion.  Meaning, that the higher the handicap, the less likely the swing motion itself is reproduced in a consistent enough manner to make a fitting a good predictor of improvement in scores, but it can and *should* certainly ensure that the sticks in your hand give a player the best chance to produce the best results for the swing they used on fit day.

Which brings it full circle to the cycling fit analogy:

The best fitters are ALSO listeners, observers and teachers. They not only work with the equipment, they work with the player to understand the mechanics of the swing and WHY the changes in equipment are made, as well as how to best take advantage of those changes.

This is what computer modeled fitting cannot adequately accomplish. They can get a mathematically, geometrically correct fitment, but absent the listening and education, they cannot overcome the weaknesses in body mechanics.

Using myself as an example.  I had a couple of club fits before I landed where I am at now. I am not a single digit, but my last fit did provide measurable gains. Distance & dispersion control paired with an education and understanding of what *I* was doing to undermine the very best equipment solutions the fitter could offer for my body type. In the subsequent. months I have gone from floating between 18-20 handicap down to a 13, and trending down from there, and the clubs are NOT the roadblock to lower scores, the dumb brain farts that occur entirely too often are.

[twyatt700]

56 minutes ago, Middler said:

I wonder how many players, especially those with double digit handicaps, actually 'perform better/get more enjoyment' as a result of a fitting (unless they don't even know their shaft flex)? I suspect it's a small minority, but it's hard to know as most players would never admit fitting didn't translate to better performance - which I take as scoring. Every player buyer goes through a honeymoon with new clubs, fitted or not, but the performance reverts to mean more often than not IME.

I know quite a few people who've had fittings of varying quality, and none of them are scoring any better than before.

My favorite case is a guy I play with often, who got a full bag custom fit through Club Champion for $5000, and if anything he's worse than before. He recommends fittings even though he has nothing to show for it.

OTOH there are a few others I play with regularly who have improved changing clubs, without a fitting. Clearest case a guy who replaced his ancient Ping drive/fairways with Callaway Mavrik driver/fairway and IS hitting longer and scoring better. I know lots of guys who buy new clubs without a fitting and are totally happy with them. Believing in the clubs you have is half the battle...

The best players I know could beat the rest of us just the same with our clubs...

I don't disagree with you but I also don't fully agree either. @dru_ makes a lot of sense. I do believe that my buddy who is a plus and wins several very competitive tournaments per year will beat me with any club he picks up. At the end of the day it's the golfer who needs to learn how to play the game to score and not just play golf swing. All I am saying is that if you are going to buy clubs, you should take the time to get fit, just so you aren't flying blind. In my experience after I was fit I noticed my dispersion improve and my face dispersion tighten up as well. But because I am of superior athleticism to most people I was able to capitalize on that to improve my scoring. A lot of people who golf just don't understand how to switch to athlete mode and know how to score. I think that's what most people are missing when they play. They think that if they can get the equipment to produce the right number on trackman then all of a sudden they will be scratch golfers and when they score the same with the new "stuff" they think that fitter wasn't any good or these clubs suck when in reality their "numbers" may be slightly better with their new equipment but they have no idea how to actually play the game. 

[Middler]

22 minutes ago, dru_ said:

Using myself as an example.  I had a couple of club fits before I landed where I am at now. I am not a single digit, but my last fit did provide measurable gains. Distance & dispersion control paired with an education and understanding of what *I* was doing to undermine the very best equipment solutions the fitter could offer for my body type. In the subsequent. months I have gone from floating between 18-20 handicap down to a 13, and trending down from there, and the clubs are NOT the roadblock to lower scores, the dumb brain farts that occur entirely too often are.

I enjoyed reading your POV, thanks for taking the time. 

I am not suggesting that fittings never provide any benefit, I am sure they do, more so for better players (but not limited to). In the many posts I've read about fittings over the years, examples with measurable results (like yours, congrats) at all are very rare. The narratives go on and on, but quantified results are scarce. Some of the biggest proponents of fittings here have posted 'you can't necessarily expect your scores to improve due to a fitting' - to which I say, then what's the benefit?

Your biking example includes better performance, even if only incremental. Again, the number of posts I've read the include scoring details don't even include incremental results.

I've been fitted for drivers, fairways and irons several times from big box, to demo days (my preference by far) and Club Champion. No improvement whatsoever, but no decline either. The one exception for me, a putter fitting at True Spec, that did produce measurable results.

[Middler]

4 hours ago, twyatt700 said:

I don't disagree with you but I also don't fully agree either. @dru_ makes a lot of sense. I do believe that my buddy who is a plus and wins several very competitive tournaments per year will beat me with any club he picks up. At the end of the day it's the golfer who needs to learn how to play the game to score and not just play golf swing. All I am saying is that if you are going to buy clubs, you should take the time to get fit, just so you aren't flying blind. In my experience after I was fit I noticed my dispersion improve and my face dispersion tighten up as well. But because I am of superior athleticism to most people I was able to capitalize on that to improve my scoring. A lot of people who golf just don't understand how to switch to athlete mode and know how to score. I think that's what most people are missing when they play. They think that if they can get the equipment to produce the right number on trackman then all of a sudden they will be scratch golfers and when they score the same with the new "stuff" they think that fitter wasn't any good or these clubs suck when in reality their "numbers" may be slightly better with their new equipment but they have no idea how to actually play the game. 

That may well be what I see most often. I know plenty of guys who've been fit who haven't improved at all, and don't know anyone personally who can point to a measurable improvement in scoring or any typical metric (%FW, GIR, etc.). There was a guy here a good while back with a 30 HI asking if he should be fit to improve his scoring, and most people told him YES. IMO a 30 HI would be better off spending on lessons and practicing with purpose...

[chisag]

... Not an easy topic to fit neatly into a box. Especially for forum members that tend to be more informed than the average guy grabbing clubs off the rack because their friend plays them. Golf is an all encompassing endeavor where technique, physical conditioning or limitations and equipment all play a key role. But as far as club fitting, how your current clubs fit is probably the biggest factor when it comes to whether or not a fitting will have the potential for lower scores. 

... If you are playing shafts far too stiff there is a good chance you are putting too much effort into your swing. If you are playing shafts too soft there is a good chance your rhythm is suffering. Getting fit in the right shaft can make a very big difference. Same for heads, and a LS driver may not produce anywhere near enough spin for a slower swing speed and a Max driver may provide far too much spin for a high swing speed player. I probably get paired up with more Ams in ill fitting drivers than any other club. 

... I have heard many stories on forums from golfers that have been fit and it made no difference in their game, especially those already in clubs that are a decent fit. I know others have a completely opposite experience. I have posted this before but my playing pard was using knock off clone clubs with the exception of a Burner driver with too little loft and too stiff a shaft. Simple guy that taught shop for 25 years in high school I could not get him to go to a golf store and hit some clubs. So our course had a free Callaway fitting and I signed us both up. Long story short, he ended up buying a new driver, 5 wood, 4/5 hybrids, 5-Gw irons and a sand wedge. He has shaved about 8 strokes off his scores and is enjoying the game more. Granted, his clubs were a very poor fit so he is one that was a perfect example of someone that could  benefit tremendously from a club fitting. That said, I do think he is an exception but the point being those guys are out there. 

...  Like everything about this complicated game, there is no one answer to almost any question. Many may benefit more from lessons and/or improving their physical conditioning but for some a club fitting can make a really big difference.

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 hours ago, Colin K said:

Thanks for the input. I think by casual, I mean that I don't play that often and probably wouldn't want to change my swing too much to fit a set of clubs, in retrospect. I don't mind playing through changes for fun as part of the game, but sounds like it might be easier for me to just have someone point me to a specific set of clubs based on my swing type then.
 

Getting fit will allow you to not have to change your swing to fit a set of clubs, it will give you a set of clubs that work with your swing. When equipment is I’ll fitted a golfer has to manipulate their swing to try and hit the ball the way they want.

3 hours ago, Colin K said:

Haha ironically I live about 45 mins from Sub70 HQ, and I have been eyeing there for a fitting (and a solid price) ... but wasn't sure I'd get enough out of them this summer. It likely will be where I go as I've only heard good things. 

Thanks for the info as I don't know what to even ask for or consider myself with stuff like loft or shaft. Sounds like the easier route overall to just have someone tell me.

Don’t worry about what to ask. The fitter will do more of the asking. What you want to do is let the fitter know what you are looking to accomplish from the fitting. They are going to ask you what your typical ball flight is, what’s your miss, and so on

2 hours ago, Middler said:

wonder how many players, especially those with double digit handicaps, actually 'perform better/get more enjoyment' as a result of a fitting (unless they don't even know their shaft flex)? I suspect it's a small minority,

We’ve talked about this before. A fitted club doesn’t guarantee better scores, for those who are completely in a wrong set of clubs they may see scores drop right away because it’s easier to make their swing and not manipulate it to get the desired results. But at the end of the day the golfer still has to execute golf shots and get the ball in the hole. It’s still a hard game but the fitted club is going to help their miss and optimize their good shots

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I am not suggesting that fittings never provide any benefit, I am sure they do, more so for better players (but not limited to).

It’s actually higher handicaps that benefit more from a fitting than a low handicap. The better player is better at making adjustments to equipment and can play with clubs that don’t fit them. I’ve seen this in person with a scratch golfer with high swing speed play cleveland launcher irons on a tough course and shoot even par.

 

[tony@CIC]

1 hour ago, Middler said:

That may well be what I see most often. I know plenty of guys who've been fit who haven't improved at all, and don't know any who can point to a measurable improvement in scoring or any typical metric (%FW, GIR, etc.). There was a guy here a good while back with a 30 HI asking if he should be fit to improve his scoring, and most people told him YES. IMO a 30 HI would be better off spending on lessons and practicing with purpose...

Yup! My buddy who has a similar swing speed and HCP to me just got fitted with the latest PXGs with steel fiber shaft and is really  struggling. I also agree on the lessons. One point that many overlook is that club performance doesn't directly correlate to scoring. I can hit my SIM 2 driver 15 yds longer than my 410, both with equally close dispersion, but that doesn't necessarily mean that I'll walk off the hole with a  par instead of a bogie using my SIM 2.  So many nuances to consider including the mental part of the game. 

[twyatt700]

2 hours ago, Middler said:

That may well be what I see most often. I know plenty of guys who've been fit who haven't improved at all, and don't know any who can point to a measurable improvement in scoring or any typical metric (%FW, GIR, etc.). There was a guy here a good while back with a 30 HI asking if he should be fit to improve his scoring, and most people told him YES. IMO a 30 HI would be better off spending on lessons and practicing with purpose...

Couldn't agree more, I think that was kinda the point I was trying to make. If you are going to buy new clubs get fit for them no matter the skill level, but if you're expecting a fitting to be the magic pill that will revolutionize your game then you're going to be disappointed. So in a way we were both right. I do agree that there are a lot of people put there (especially on this site lol) that care more about what's in there bag and what their specs are vs what's on their scorecard. Because you can buy one and the other comes with hard work and talent. 

[dru_]

3 hours ago, Middler said:

I enjoyed reading your POV, thanks for taking the time. 

I am not suggesting that fittings never provide any benefit, I am sure they do, more so for better players (but not limited to). In the many posts I've read about fittings over the years, examples with measurable results (like yours, congrats) at all are very rare. The narratives go on and on, but quantified results are scarce. Some of the biggest proponents of fittings here have posted 'you can't necessarily expect your scores to improve due to a fitting' - to which I say, then what's the benefit?

Your biking example includes better performance, even if only incremental. Again, the number of posts I've read the include scoring details don't even include incremental results.

I've been fitted for drivers, fairways and irons several times from big box, to demo days (my preference by far) and Club Champion. No improvement whatsoever, but no decline either. The one exception for me, a putter fitting at True Spec, that did produce measurable results.

Here is what I think is truly missing from the discussion:

The typical mid-capper does not have the awareness of their strengths and weaknesses to be able to provide real, measurable feedback on what their incremental gains were, and until the do start gathering that data on the course, they will almost always revert to the same patterns that existing pre fitting, despite ‘feeling like; they are hitting it better.

Watching the mid cappers that I play with regularly, I see the same core patterns.  They don’t know their distances.  They don’t know their trends. They over estimate their short game distances, and under estimate the range of dispersion on the mid irons.  They look to the driver and putter, because ‘drive for show, putt for dough’ is such a repetitive mantra that most assume that is where they are losing strokes.

We, even the mid cappers here, tend to be far more analytical in our game, and that knowledge fuels our choices.  A 7 yard gain in driving distance means nothing if I’m a 9iron out of the rough as my approach, with an indeterminate lie and no ability to control the distance. This is where practice with a purpose comes in, but also, play with a plan, and most importantly, when the subject of getting fit comes up ( and I do advocate a good fit, if for no other reason than to see what your spin rates and angles really are ) quit focusing on the driver.  Focus on the clubs you play on 18 holes, not the ones you play on no more than 14 ( less if you play with a plan to stay away from known problematic numbers ).

That is the single biggest lesson I wish more people would embrace.  Closer is better, the numbers bear that out, but if you, as a player know that 60 yards is a problem, lay back, or play a longer club to get to a number that you are mor confident in.  Looking in the mirror, I know that 90-95 yards is a problem for me.  I can play 105-125  with my GW, or PW.  80-90 with my SW, and 65-80 with my LW. No amount of fiddling with clubs, lofts, lies or grinds has ever made 90-95 a comfortable number, so I simply don’t play it that number, which in turn has removed 2-3 dropped shots from my rounds.

[Middler]

1 hour ago, twyatt700 said:

Couldn't agree more, I think that was kinda the point I was trying to make. If you are going to buy new clubs get fit for them no matter the skill level, but if you're expecting a fitting to be the magic pill that will revolutionize your game then you're going to be disappointed. So in a way we were both right. I do agree that there are a lot of people put there (especially on this site lol) that care more about what's in there bag and what their specs are vs what's on their scorecard. Because you can buy one and the other comes with hard work and talent. 

+1. Fitting is not the scoring panacea that even some smart people here lead people to believe, sometimes indirectly. Doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile for some people.

[RickyBobby_PR]

26 minutes ago, Middler said:

+1. Fitting is not the scoring panacea that even some smart people here lead people to believe. Doesn’t mean it isn’t worthwhile for some people.

Point me to anyone of the “smart people” here who has said or mead anyone to believe that fittings will lead to lower scores. I haven’t seen this people so I’m curious who they are

[Middler]

39 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Point me to anyone of the “smart people” here who has said or mead anyone to believe that fittings will lead to lower scores. I haven’t seen this people so I’m curious who they are

What is the primary purpose of a fitting? Lower scores isn’t even among the objectives? I’ll admit it’s primary to me. That said IF you’ve already decided to buy new clubs, a fitting can only help - so by all means. OTOH when someone who has NOT already decided to buy clubs comes here asking if new clubs would help - that’s a different ask, a knee jerk ‘yes’ isn’t always the answer. There are some truly “smart people” here I’ve rarely if ever seen not recommend a fitting in all sorts of situations.

I’m not going to go back and find posts, or try to embarrass anyone. But there have been several/many mid-high handicappers (low handicappers already know when/if a fitting is in order) who’ve started threads asking it it’s worth their while to get a fitting and directly or indirectly asking how it would improve their “performance.” Even this one says “how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.” When someone asks about performance I don’t know how one could assume they’re not interested in scoring better. Certainly we don’t get fit with zero interest in performance.

This OP even said “casual” and “I don’t play that often.” It’s not obvious fitting $ would be well spent for an occasional, casual 18 HI player.

If you want to go back and find the guy with the 30 HI who asked about the benefits of fitting and read the replies he got, please do. Most replies recommended he go get a fitting. That’s probably bad advice for anyone expecting some value from the the money they spend.

I have a lot of respect for your golf IQ (higher than mine), among others here, and have benefited from your posts. We just have different views regarding what percentage of players will see a scoring improvement from a real fitting - clearly some here on both “sides” won’t be swayed WRT fittings any time soon.

[cnosil]

12 minutes ago, Middler said:

What is the primary purpose of a fitting? Lower scores isn’t even among the objectives? I’ll admit it’s primary to me. That said IF you’ve already decided to buy new clubs, a fitting can only help - so by all means. OTOH when someone who has NOT already decided to buy clubs and comes here asking if new clubs would help - that’s a different ask, a knee jerk ‘yes’ isn’t always the answer. There are some truly “smart people” here I’ve rarely if ever seen not recommend a fitting in all cases.

who’ve started threads asking it it’s worth their while to get a fitting and directly or indirectly asking how it would improve their “performance.” Even this one says “how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.” When someone asks about performance I don’t know how one could assume they’re not interested in scoring better. Certainly we don’t get fit with zero interest in performance.

I personally always recommend a fitting over walking in and buying clubs off the rack.  That said, the word "fitting" has many meanings and not all of them are Club Champion/Tour Spec type fittings with upgraded components which is what most people seem to think the word fitting means.   I think Matt on Plugged in Golf has some great perspectives on this topic and completely agree with his opinion:

https://pluggedingolf.com/will-new-golf-clubs-raise-your-floor-or-ceiling/

https://pluggedingolf.com/do-new-golfers-need-fitted-golf-clubs/

"performance" as you interpret it seems to be strictly scoring related;  I also consider performance also being able to more consistently launch the ball,  getting forgiveness on miss hits, narrowing dispersion patterns possibly even with lost distance, or reducing hooks and slices.   One thing I can't do is tell someone how properly fitted clubs will benefit them other than generalities that I listed in the prior sentence.

I will continue to recommend fittings for anyone looking to buy clubs to help determine how well they can hit the clubs.  To me a fitting could be anything from high end Club Champion/Tour Spec to a big box store fitting where the sales person gives advice on what might work.  

I kind of favor fitting prior to lessons also since a player could own clubs that can make being successful in lessons more difficult.  

[RickyBobby_PR]

54 minutes ago, Middler said:

What is the primary purpose of a fitting? Lower scores isn’t even among the objectives? I’ll admit it’s primary to me. That said IF you’ve already decided to buy new clubs, a fitting can only help - so by all means. OTOH when someone who has NOT already decided to buy clubs comes here asking if new clubs would help - that’s a different ask, a knee jerk ‘yes’ isn’t always the answer. There are some truly “smart people” here I’ve rarely if ever seen not recommend a fitting in all sorts of situations

Each person may have their goals for what they want out of a fitting, some may be realistic and some may be misguided. The purpose of a fitting is to give the golfer a tool that works with them and not against them. It optimizes the performance of the ball flight for the persons swing and to reduce the negative effects of their typical miss while at the same time allowin them to get the most of their good swings. There’s no guarantee a fitter club will lower scores. As I’ve said over and over the golfer still has to execute the shot in front of them each time until the ball is in the hole. Lower scores come from improving the skills needed to improve at hitting the ball better, improving short game, putting, etc. Having a fitted club will make that easier because the golfer isn’t fighting the club to achieve a desired result.

Lessons are a better option to lower scores but that’s also not a gurantee.

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I’m not going to go back and find posts, or try to embarrass anyone. But there have been several/many mid-high handicappers (low handicappers already know when/if a fitting is in order) who’ve started threads asking it it’s worth their while to get a fitting and directly or indirectly asking how it would improve their “performance.” Even this one says “how much of a difference certain changes help more or don't matter as much.” When someone asks about performance I don’t know how one could assume they’re not interested in scoring better. Certainly we don’t get fit with zero interest in performance.

This is far different than anyone saying fitting is going to make them better golfers. And the smart people that reply to those threads off a lot of the same advice being given in this one, about having a club that works for you, that performance increase isn’t guaranteed and that whether it’s worth it is only for that golfer to decide, but to do the fitting, see what the results are and determine if an upgrade is worth it.

1 hour ago, Middler said:

This OP even said “casual” and “I don’t play that often.” It’s not obvious fitting $ would be well spent for an occasional, casual 18 HI player.

As I mentioned above this is a case for a fitting. The op doeand have to change his swing, will have something that will give him a chance to play more consistent and possibly better because he will have a tool that fits his swing instead of a tool he has to manipulate to get to work. Mid to high handicaps are better candidates for fitting compared to low handicaps because they can’t adjust as quickly to equipment that doesn’t work for them like a lower handicap can. I’ve had this conversation with a few fitters and have read articles and see other fitters talk about it on other forums 

 

1 hour ago, Middler said:

I have a lot of respect for your golf IQ (higher than mine), among others here, and have benefited from your posts. We just have different views regarding what percentage of players will see a scoring improvement from a real fitting - clearly some here on both “sides” won’t be swayed WRT fittings any time soon

I don’t think we have different percentage of golfers will see a scoring improvement from a fitting. You don’t think many will and as my posts have stated there’s no guarantee it does so my percentage is low as well.