How do you trust a fitter?

[Jonesie]

6 hours ago, Hacker60521 said:

@Jonesie I’ve worked with Carmen at TrueSpec. He’s up in Highland Park. I wouldn’t hesitate to recommend him.

He fitted me last year for a full bag. During the fitting he couldn’t find a driver better than my current one and even asked for a second chance on another day just focused on the driver. He tried to fit me twice for a driver and couldn’t do it. So he didn’t try to sell me anything. 

That's what I think everyone deserves at the core of it all. Unbiased help from someone who's genuinely curious to help you find your best swing tools. Thanks for the recommendation. Highland Park is close enough for me.

[Slicer]

Fitting does help the average golfer, regardless of how well you swing the club. The key is to focus on what feels good for you and what will help you with repeatability. Do not focus on distance alone.
If you feel you are pressured into buying high-end shafts or clubs because that is what the fitter is pushing, walk away.

[ILMgolfnut]

5 hours ago, Just_the_Chip said:

Similar story. I used to play about 15 years ago, got married and kit wasn't until my daughter started getting interested in golf and my wife wanting to try, that I picked it back up. My father in law gave me his set of irons from 1998. I was playing with those for the past couple of years and this year bit the bullet. I was in the wrong shaft flex, and the new technology and lofts in he club faces are INSANELY different. As a 18 handicapper, I can tell you with confidence, it's a world of difference between turf interaction, ball interaction, forgiveness, distance, spin. 

I don't think upgrading your irons every couple of years would make a difference for most, but I encourage anyone with a decade+ old set to try a fitting. 

I think part of my decision process was that I just didn't know what to choose; after that long away from the game I had no idea who had the best tech for me. I remember going into the fitting thinking I kinda wanted to get Tour Edge, which was priced closer to what I was hoping to pay than what I actually bought, and the shop where I got fitted stocked Tour Edge. And we included Tour Edge in the fitting, but the Mizuno and Cobra and so on worked better for me than the TE clubs did.

[WiTerp50]

I choose fitters that also coach. The one difference I see is on course fitters will advise me that the new shiny object is doing the same as the old. Leaving the decision to buy to me. 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

On 2/26/2024 at 12:01 PM, HikingMike said:

I would love a new thread for shafts. Maybe there is one out there. But you could start one with this. As someone who is recently learning about all this stuff and starting to do some fittings, I'm learning the significance of effects the different shafts can have.

Shafts are as mysterious as women.

 

Shafts have bend points that can be high or low, or gradual, they can have stiff butt ends or stiff tips, and most of them have secret codes that a CIA agent can't disclose on pain of death.  But the Japanese Miyazaki have a 4 number code, for the 4 sections from the grip down to the tip.  The higher the number, the stiffer that section is.  Ovalling is the deforming process when you swing a round shaft in a high speed swing. It becomes oval as the energy changes its shape from round.

 

There, that's the first chapter in Moby Dick for golfers.  We are all chasing the great white tiny but evil whale.

[sellemental]

2 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

.....the Japanese Miyazaki have a 4 number code, for the 4 sections from the grip down to the tip.  The higher the number, the stiffer that section is. 

I actually just stumbled upon this earlier this week and found it fascinating.  So much so I am wishing every shaft had this listed on it.

Shafts are  so damn mysterious and even when you look up the "chart" on it, it tells you very little.  In truth, you never really know until you swing one. 

Since there is no shaft standardization scale, this might be a step in the right direction to help in that regard.

[Just_the_Chip]

13 hours ago, ILMgolfnut said:

I think part of my decision process was that I just didn't know what to choose; after that long away from the game I had no idea who had the best tech for me. I remember going into the fitting thinking I kinda wanted to get Tour Edge, which was priced closer to what I was hoping to pay than what I actually bought, and the shop where I got fitted stocked Tour Edge. And we included Tour Edge in the fitting, but the Mizuno and Cobra and so on worked better for me than the TE clubs did.

It does suck when you find clubs that work better but are out of your price range. One of the nicest hitting clubs I've ever felt were Miura's. But that's $300+ a club. If you want tour edge, I would tell them you want tour edge and have them work with you on the shaft to help get the clubs close to your performance. 

[HikingMike]

15 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Shafts are as mysterious as women.

Shafts have bend points that can be high or low, or gradual, they can have stiff butt ends or stiff tips, and most of them have secret codes that a CIA agent can't disclose on pain of death.  But the Japanese Miyazaki have a 4 number code, for the 4 sections from the grip down to the tip.  The higher the number, the stiffer that section is.  Ovalling is the deforming process when you swing a round shaft in a high speed swing. It becomes oval as the energy changes its shape from round.

There, that's the first chapter in Moby Dick for golfers.  We are all chasing the great white tiny but evil whale.

Hah, well this does help. At least I know a little lay of the land here then. My Ping G20 driver actually has a "high flex point" or something like that written on it. Besides that and the flex, that's about all I have to go on with that. I will have to test the various stock shafts when I can. I've been reading some people stick with their shaft and carry it over to their new driver. Makes sense if you find one that suits your swing. 

[IndyBonzo]

Not to hijack this thread, but I saw this fitting video yesterday and was amazed at the efficacy and efficiency of the fitting.  I have never had a fitting this well done, with this level of communication, and with this level of insight and customization.  Mine were usually just "try this" "now try this" until a few worked well, then A vs. B until complete.  No weight changes.  No relatively slight shaft changes or loft/lie adjustments.  Am I an outlier?  If most fittings are this good, then I have definitely been going to the wrong places.  This seems like a perfect example of an excellent fitting to me.

I also wish I had that much swing speed!

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, IndyBonzo said:

Not to hijack this thread, but I saw this fitting video yesterday and was amazed at the efficacy and efficiency of the fitting.  I have never had a fitting this well done, with this level of communication, and with this level of insight and customization.  Mine were usually just "try this" "now try this" until a few worked well, then A vs. B until complete.  No weight changes.  No relatively slight shaft changes or loft/lie adjustments.  Am I an outlier?  If most fittings are this good, then I have definitely been going to the wrong places.  This seems like a perfect example of an excellent fitting to me.

I also wish I had that much swing speed!

 

A place like cool clubs, club champion/txg and TruSpec are going to offer this type of fitting. There are going to be some independent fitters who do as well but you are going to pay for the services. 

Its also why these type of places don’t give the fitting fee towards the purchase of a club. You are paying for the time and knowledge of a the fitter then a fee, etc for the clubs and club building if you order from them. 

Most fittings aren’t like this because they are run out of a pro shop, box store, demo day. Places where equipment isn’t available, inventory is limited.

But yes even in those fittings you should have communication between fitter and golfer. It should be more than just try this, now this. I’ve been fit by really good fitters at pro shops and demo days where I came out with a great performing setup. I’m not as sensitive as others to weight so I don’t really need to much weight adjustment and typically fitting carts have a +2 or -2° lie head along with the manufacturers standard lie. I can fit between standard and -2° so fitting carts can get me dialed in. In fittings like this it comes down to how good the fitter is

 

[IndyBonzo]

2 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A place like cool clubs, club champion/txg and TruSpec are going to offer this type of fitting. There are going to be some independent fitters who do as well but you are going to pay for the services. 

Its also why these type of places don’t give the fitting fee towards the purchase of a club. You are paying for the time and knowledge of a the fitter then a fee, etc for the clubs and club building if you order from them. 

Most fittings aren’t like this because they are run out of a pro shop, box store, demo day. Places where equipment isn’t available, inventory is limited.

But yes even in those fittings you should have communication between fitter and golfer. It should be more than just try this, now this. I’ve been fit by really good fitters at pro shops and demo days where I came out with a great performing setup. I’m not as sensitive as others to weight so I don’t really need to much weight adjustment and typically fitting carts have a +2 or -2° lie head along with the manufacturers standard lie. I can fit between standard and -2° so fitting carts can get me dialed in. In fittings like this it comes down to how good the fitter is

 

Thank you @RickyBobby_PR!  I hope you are right generally.  But I have to say my last fitting at Club Champion in 2023 was nowhere near as good as the one in that video, and I got mis-fit as a result.

Which ties back to the origin of this thread - how to trust your fitter?  Good recommendations above.

[RickyBobby_PR]

25 minutes ago, IndyBonzo said:

Thank you @RickyBobby_PR!  I hope you are right generally.  But I have to say my last fitting at Club Champion in 2023 was nowhere near as good as the one in that video, and I got mis-fit as a result.

Which ties back to the origin of this thread - how to trust your fitter?  Good recommendations above.

I’m not saying club champion is good. It’s a chain I would steer people away from unless I know the fitter. There are some good fitters at CC but it’s a rarity.

A fitting regardless of where and what’s available is only as good as the fitter and the communication between fitter and golfer.

You trust a fitter thru reputation, no different than trusting any other person providing a service whether it’s a mechanic, barber, tailor, etc

[IndyBonzo]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

I’m not saying club champion is good. It’s a chain I would steer people away from unless I know the fitter. There are some good fitters at CC but it’s a rarity.

A fitting regardless of where and what’s available is only as good as the fitter and the communication between fitter and golfer.

You trust a fitter thru reputation, no different than trusting any other person providing a service whether it’s a mechanic, barber, tailor, etc

Good points.  I'm not arguing with you, to be clear.  In fact I agree 100%.  Just sharing my experience, and concurring that the abilities of the individual fitter are what matters, and not the name above or on the front door.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 hours ago, IndyBonzo said:

Good points.  I'm not arguing with you, to be clear.  In fact I agree 100%.  Just sharing my experience, and concurring that the abilities of the individual fitter are what matters, and not the name above or on the front door.

We agree. The problem is that there are too many bad fitters and too many golfers who don’t do any or enough research before going to get fit

[RDel90]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:29 PM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Club champion is on of the few places that starts with shafts. 
 

Maybe I just lucked out then. After base lining my current gamers, my CC fitter starts with heads on either the same shaft I am gaming or something very close. We went through a few heads to see what gains in dispersion and/or distance can be made. Then we went through some shafts to see if we can tweak numbers from there with a couple of the heads we downselected.

So not all CC fittings are the same based on the fitter. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

20 minutes ago, RDel90 said:

Maybe I just lucked out then. After base lining my current gamers, my CC fitter starts with heads on either the same shaft I am gaming or something very close. We went through a few heads to see what gains in dispersion and/or distance can be made. Then we went through some shafts to see if we can tweak numbers from there with a couple of the heads we downselected.

So not all CC fittings are the same based on the fitter. 

Your fitter probably has more experience than what CC normally hires/trains for. But they are known to be shaft first head second 

[Guest-0]

13 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

We agree. The problem is that there are too many bad fitters and too many golfers who don’t do any or enough research before going to get fit

I think even more than there are "bad fitters" there are terrible golfers who think a description of a club they read somewhere makes a shaft or a club the magic pill to fix their horrible non repeatable swing and blaming someone else is somehow easier for them

[RickyBobby_PR]

3 minutes ago, Marlin Dave said:

I think even more than there are "bad fitters" there are terrible golfers who think a description of a club they read somewhere makes a shaft or a club the magic pill to fix their horrible non repeatable swing and blaming someone else is somehow easier for them

For sure and many want a quick fix which is why YouTube is very popular for these golfers who want “fix your slice in 3 easy steps” and any other type of issue one thinks they have. 
 

But having been around the fitting industry and reading enough posts over the years across forums there are a lot of bad fitters 

[Guest-0]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

For sure and many want a quick fix which is why YouTube is very popular for these golfers who want “fix your slice in 3 easy steps” and any other type of issue one thinks they have. 
 

But having been around the fitting industry and reading enough posts over the years across forums there are a lot of bad fitters 

Without a doubt I agree but it's the same in any industry there are bad everything everywhere!!!! That's why as a guy who may not write a negative review somewhere I go out of my way to write positive ones for those who deserve it

[jbubski]

On 2/25/2024 at 7:36 AM, deattle said:

they seem to be very close to car salesman.

I can totally understand this and I made sure when I went to inform them I wouldn't be buying from the store (bought used). This was nice because I paid for the fitting and didn't feel bad not getting anything and they knew they weren't going to sell me on anything.

Definitely important to feel comfortable, because you'll want to try an emulate what it's like out on the course! My advice to anyone is take breaks if you need and don't feel bad if you need schedule another fitting if your swing is off that day. It can be a nerve racking experience and costly depending where you are.

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 hour ago, jbubski said:

I can totally understand this and I made sure when I went to inform them I wouldn't be buying from the store (bought used). This was nice because I paid for the fitting and didn't feel bad not getting anything and they knew they weren't going to sell me on anything.

Definitely important to feel comfortable, because you'll want to try an emulate what it's like out on the course! My advice to anyone is take breaks if you need and don't feel bad if you need schedule another fitting if your swing is off that day. It can be a nerve racking experience and costly depending where you are.

Define swing being off.  Everyone’s swing is going to have days where it’s better than others and a good fitter understands this and can tell what’s a non normal swing from a good one. They are watching the golfer warmup and asking questions. They can gather from the golfers feedback on their questions what’s normal or not.

 

[Guest-0]

15 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Define swing being off.  Everyone’s swing is going to have days where it’s better than others and a good fitter understands this and can tell what’s a non normal swing from a good one. They are watching the golfer warmup and asking questions. They can gather from the golfers feedback on their questions what’s normal or not.

 

I don't think "normal" is the word. Repeatable is the issue with alot of amatuers. Hard to compile data with any consistency if they hit the ball all over the place

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, Marlin Dave said:

I don't think "normal" is the word. Repeatable is the issue with alot of amatuers. Hard to compile data with any consistency if they hit the ball all over the place

Incorrect. This is a misperception by most amateurs.

Everyone has the same swing from one one swing to another. The swing itself is repeatable, what happens is that the compensations one makes for their swing faults isn’t always the same and that’a where the inconsistency in strike and ball flight comes from. Even the pros have swing faults the difference between the pros or better golfers and the rest is the ability to make the same compensations each swing.

A good fitter can see this and make the necessary adjustments to the equipment for the fitting. Between watching the swing, talking with the golfer about their game and what the ball flight in the fitting is like compared to their on course ball flight and misses the fitter can tell when a normal swing and what isn’t happens in the fitting.

Its why I don’t get fit by anyone that doesn’t understand the swing itself. 

[Guest-0]

Just now, RickyBobby_PR said:

Incorrect. This is a misperception by most amateurs.

Everyone has the same swing from one one swing to another. The swing itself is repeatable, what happens is that the compensations one makes for their swing faults isn’t always the same and that’a where the inconsistency in strike and ball flight comes from. Even the pros have swing faults the difference between the pros or better golfers and the rest is the ability to make the same compensations each swing.

A good fitter can see this and make the necessary adjustments to the equipment for the fitting. Between watching the swing, talking with the golfer about their game and what the ball flight in the fitting is like compared to their on course ball flight and misses the fitter can tell when a normal swing and what isn’t happens in the fitting.

Its why I don’t get fit by anyone that doesn’t understand the swing itself. 

Oh ok

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Another word on flex point. The higher up on the shaft it is, the LOWER is the launch angle and flight. A low flex point kicks the ball up HIGHER.

[RickyBobby_PR]

4 hours ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Another word on flex point. The higher up on the shaft it is, the LOWER is the launch angle and flight. A low flex point kicks the ball up HIGHER.

not really. A lot depends on the golfer swing. So many myths about shafts have been debunked by experienced fitters with tons of data

From Tom Wishon

For those of you who have read some of my articles and posts on shafts, you have heard this part before. The shaft’s effect on launch angle, trajectory and backspin only become visible as the golfer’s release occurs later and later in the downswing. In addition, the shaft’s effect on trajectory and spin progresses more and more as the golfer’s clubhead speed and downswing aggressiveness/force increases.

Golfers who unhinge the wrist cock early to midway in the downswing do NOT experience a difference in launch angle, trajectory or backspin from shafts of different flex and different bend profile. They do experience a difference in how solid or boardy the impact with the ball is. But as the release gets to midway on the downswing, and progressively a little later and later beyond midway in the downswing, the shaft begins to have a little more and more effect on launch angle, trajectory and spin.

Link to the whole article 

https://www.golfwrx.com/55733/wishon-facts-about-what-shafts-what-shafts-do-and-who-they-do-it-for/

[Donn lost in San Diego]

Well that makes sense.  A slow swing speed bends a shaft less than higher mph swing. So the flex point is less a factor for slower speeds. And Wishon knows a wee bit more than I do.  I think. Maybe. Just a tad.

[RickyBobby_PR]

31 minutes ago, Donn lost in San Diego said:

Well that makes sense.  A slow swing speed bends a shaft less than higher mph swing. So the flex point is less a factor for slower speeds. And Wishon knows a wee bit more than I do.  I think. Maybe. Just a tad.

It’s about the release and not so much speed, but yes a faster swinger is going to put more force on a shaft. But a faster swinger with a smooth transition and late release is going to experience a different feel and load than a radar swinger who is aggressive in transition and releases earlier 

[Donn lost in San Diego]

 That's why you have to actually hit balls .  Why some shafts feel Just Right and some feel like cold mutton. I have a 12 yr old blue Ozik Matrix 3 wood shaft that is still Sophia Lauren for me. 

[MCunderpar]

I’ve also had mixed experience including the used car salesman in fitters. I decided to take control of my fittings by working with my pro on the simulator. Who knows my game better- my pro or a fitter I may see at most 3 times every few years? Even the best fitter can only fit the game you brought that day. Once I know what numbers I want to hit, I’ll go to the big box store and tell them what clubs I want to hit. I’m upfront in how I’m doing the fitting and most are happy to work with me. In fact less work for them. If I’m having an off day, I walk away and come back another time. It’s not perfect but I’m in control and no one is trying to push a club that does not fit me.