SGI VS GI VS PLAYERS DISTANCE

[Wheelieb]

I’m pretty sure this has been broached and talked about extensively here in the forum, most recently with one of the posts that I don’t remember. Anyhow, going down rabbit holes and the lot, the lofts on these irons tend to be similar. The soles are different for sure as well as top lines of them and blade length. Now I can post about this as I have been doing a small test to see if I should switch to PD irons or just stick to the GI irons. My game has progressed to the point that if I say I want to shape my shot left or right I can do that. Mind you getting a nice butter cut, or slight fade is still a work in progress. But I can start drawing and power fading my irons when I want. That is with my PXG 0311 XP irons which are game improvement irons through and through. Since I work with numerous guys that golf, some have PD irons. Not because they are better than anyone, but it is what suits their eye. Now putting them side by side one has older Titleist T200 irons and one has Cobra king forged Tec irons. Both at 30 degrees for the 7 irons. My PXG’s have a loft of 28 degrees, wider sole, and fly for miles. Now I know you want good launch, and decent angle to hold the greens. To be clear, I can hit my 7 iron 195-200 on the fly. That’s a big combination of a lot of things but the biggest being the strong loft of the club. I get it. It’s not me being junior Bryson and I fully understand that. What I am saying is that the decent angle of the game improvement irons I have are now not in a good window. And I also do not hit them as well as the PD irons my friends have. Weird to say friends. Anyway, we all have done this test. It’s a little wild that we three have seen my 7 iron perform the worst and I can’t hit cobra clubs because I have no idea why, except for like one good shot out of ten. But the titleist I hit well. This brings me to testing out the Mizuno 245’s and I’ve hit them well and they have a loft of 30 degrees. Also have a great decent angle. About 7 yards lost on carry distance, that’s fine. Just means have to club up with titleist and the Mizuno. Cobra, well, it’s just not you it’s me. Now these have performed better than my GI irons. So my long winded form for a question but a debate topic is quite simple. Do you really lose all that much by switching from SGI to GI to PD irons when they all still have a forgiving quality about them? Yes you will lose about 3 yards of carry with each weaker loft, but if you are starting to play better is it really that big of a deal if you know you just need to club up? What are your thoughts? Hitting the T200’s really have me second guessing buying Mizuno’s at the moment as well. 

[Stereotype]

Couple of thoughts 

your tags say that you have broken 100 and are an 18 handicap; where are you losing strokes?

• if all your strokes are lost on not being able to hold greens then it makes sense to go with weaker lofts; thereby increasing your descent angle as you mentioned.  
  • 200 with a 7 iron is huge even with somewhat jacked lofts.   
• It sounds like you have access to a lot of data; I would combine that with what makes you confident over the ball and give you consistency. 

I am in a similar situation but sitting at an 11-handicap playing the same F8's I've had since they came out. I have tried to get fitted into a more PD iron but didn't see an appreciable difference in performance to justify the costs. If costs aren't an issue for you, get fitted based on your goals and roll with it. I like the Mizuno's 200 series both 2023 and 2024 versions as well as the T150's for what it's worth. 

I hope this helps a little, either confirm what you were already feeling or provide a new vantage point.  

[Wheelieb]

4 hours ago, Stereotype said:

Couple of thoughts 

your tags say that you have broken 100 and are an 18 handicap; where are you losing strokes?

• if all your strokes are lost on not being able to hold greens then it makes sense to go with weaker lofts; thereby increasing your descent angle as you mentioned.  
  • 200 with a 7 iron is huge even with somewhat jacked lofts.   
• It sounds like you have access to a lot of data; I would combine that with what makes you confident over the ball and give you consistency. 

I am in a similar situation but sitting at an 11-handicap playing the same F8's I've had since they came out. I have tried to get fitted into a more PD iron but didn't see an appreciable difference in performance to justify the costs. If costs aren't an issue for you, get fitted based on your goals and roll with it. I like the Mizuno's 200 series both 2023 and 2024 versions as well as the T150's for what it's worth. 

I hope this helps a little, either confirm what you were already feeling or provide a new vantage point.  

So, for what it’s worth, most of the stokes I was losing and still do at times is chipping. Everyone told me I needed to work from the green to the tee, and I had an issue with that when I started. Mainly due to the fact that if I wasn’t getting to the green anywhere close to regulation, then I would be wasting my time practicing that. So now I’m able to get to the green and give myself a chance to make at least par. Yes, I know 195-200 is not normal for a 7 iron. I also know that for whatever reason my 7 iron was my comfort zone for the longest time. This has caused gapping issues between my 7 and my 8. It’s a theory I have that maybe to me, looks are what really matter. It’s why I’ve not bought new irons yet this year based off looking at the T200’s. But you bring up the T150 irons. Those too are an option I would suppose. At least to hit them and see anyway. I will definitely be going and trying those out now as well. 

[Bobbers]

If it were me (and I know it's not...) I'd focus on actual performance on the course and not get too distracted with the supposed "specs" of the clubs involved.  If your approach shot doesn't have the proper descent angle that's the issue regardless of whether the manufacturer says it's a 27, 28, 29, or 30 degree loft on the club.  Offset, CG, etc. all also factor into how a particular iron is going to perform as well.

Ball position, the amount of shaft lean your stroke imparts, heck even the ball you're using are all part of the performance equation.

Any reason you can't have one of your clubs loft adjusted by a degree or two to see what impact that has?  I'm sure PXG would be quick to tell you how much, if at all, your set of irons could be adjusted.

Good luck with your experimentation.

[Wheelieb]

1 hour ago, Bobbers said:

If it were me (and I know it's not...) I'd focus on actual performance on the course and not get too distracted with the supposed "specs" of the clubs involved.  If your approach shot doesn't have the proper descent angle that's the issue regardless of whether the manufacturer says it's a 27, 28, 29, or 30 degree loft on the club.  Offset, CG, etc. all also factor into how a particular iron is going to perform as well.

Ball position, the amount of shaft lean your stroke imparts, heck even the ball you're using are all part of the performance equation.

Any reason you can't have one of your clubs loft adjusted by a degree or two to see what impact that has?  I'm sure PXG would be quick to tell you how much, if at all, your set of irons could be adjusted.

Good luck with your experimentation.

You bring up a valid point about adjusting loft. I could go stronger with my 8 iron to get gapping closer to an ideal area, but then I would also have to do that with my my 9, PW, and GW. That wouldn't be a problem to adjust them. The problem would be then hat those clubs would be the flight characteristics I would feel. What I mean is, would those irons not have a good decent angle at that point or not? This also brings in questions about shafts. It doesn't necessarily mean it is the club head itself. Now I don't have that kind of disposable income to allow me to go down those rabbit holes, So I am picking and choosing what the best course of action is for me. whether that be doing what me and my two buddies do when we play, or going to the golf shop and testing with used clubs on their machine or demo heads to see numbers. It's just interesting that at the moment I feel I have more control with the PD vs my GI irons.

[BCases]

2 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

You bring up a valid point about adjusting loft. I could go stronger with my 8 iron to get gapping closer to an ideal area, but then I would also have to do that with my my 9, PW, and GW. That wouldn't be a problem to adjust them. The problem would be then hat those clubs would be the flight characteristics I would feel. What I mean is, would those irons not have a good decent angle at that point or not? This also brings in questions about shafts. It doesn't necessarily mean it is the club head itself. Now I don't have that kind of disposable income to allow me to go down those rabbit holes, So I am picking and choosing what the best course of action is for me. whether that be doing what me and my two buddies do when we play, or going to the golf shop and testing with used clubs on their machine or demo heads to see numbers. It's just interesting that at the moment I feel I have more control with the PD vs my GI irons.

Here is a simple $3-5 per club possible solution. Go to your local golf shop and have them make your irons 2 degrees weaker (that model is already very strong lofted). Do not go stronger with any of the clubs. At your speed the lofts and lies on your forged clubs are probably out of wack anyway. Your 7 and 8 iron may be off from factory spec.

[RickyBobby_PR]

12 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

Do you really lose all that much by switching from SGI to GI to PD irons when they all still have a forgiving quality about them? Yes you will lose about 3 yards of carry with each weaker loft, but if you are starting to play better is it really that big of a deal if you know you just need to club up? What are your thoughts?

There is more to it than loft. Consider where the center of gravity is, consider where the strike on the face is. How does the shaft pair with the head and how does that affect the golfer swinging the club.

Despite claims about distance and hitting irons further it’s not what irons are for. Irons are for distance control not how far one can hit them, but rather do they go the distance one wants and consistently that distance when the same contact and swing is made.

What someone is willing to give up is individual and personally I am not trying to hot low spin high shots with irons. 

[Wheelieb]

49 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What someone is willing to give up is individual and personally I am not trying to hot low spin high shots with irons.

This part is what I couldn't think of in order to have a quantifiable aspect in my thought. As @BCases said, bending them to a weaker loft could be an option, but then it causes a slight issue with the bounce of the club becoming greater. As a super amateur golfer, none of that should really matter to me mainly because it just means I wouldn't take a huge divot. But it also could lead to scooping since there is more bounce which is also not something you want with your scoring irons. It's not so bad with your long irons. I will say that I could start using a ball that will give me more spin with irons, I have Wilson Triad balls for that. Let me be clear though, I love the way my 8-GW perform. It is my 5-7 irons I do not like. Which brings up another thought of a blended set. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

1 minute ago, Wheelieb said:

This part is what I couldn't think of in order to have a quantifiable aspect in my thought. As @BCases said, bending them to a weaker loft could be an option, but then it causes a slight issue with the bounce of the club becoming greater. As a super amateur golfer, none of that should really matter to me mainly because it just means I wouldn't take a huge divot.

Not necessarily true. You could still take a huge divot because of your swing. I’ve seen huge divots from wedges with 12° bounce.

2 minutes ago, Wheelieb said:

But it also could lead to scooping since there is more bounce which is also not something you want with your scoring irons. It's not so bad with your long irons.

Scooping is a result of swing issues and not present shaft lean but rather adding loft. None of which are caused purely by a bounce change.

Yes the bounce change can affect the turf interaction but the change in bounce doesn’t change one’s swing

 

[BCases]

3 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

This part is what I couldn't think of in order to have a quantifiable aspect in my thought. As @BCases said, bending them to a weaker loft could be an option, but then it causes a slight issue with the bounce of the club becoming greater. As a super amateur golfer, none of that should really matter to me mainly because it just means I wouldn't take a huge divot. But it also could lead to scooping since there is more bounce which is also not something you want with your scoring irons. It's not so bad with your long irons. I will say that I could start using a ball that will give me more spin with irons, I have Wilson Triad balls for that. Let me be clear though, I love the way my 8-GW perform. It is my 5-7 irons I do not like. Which brings up another thought of a blended set. 

Again, I will stay with the recommendation of adding 1-2 degrees of loft. If you like the 8-GW, then just add loft to the 5-7 irons. It will close the distance gap and give you more holding power on those clubs. I do not think you would notice the change in 1-2 degrees of bounce. Since it would only be about a $10 fix why not try ? However, if you just want to change the irons , I totally understand. I go though 6+ sets a year. Good luck !

[hckymeyer]

I think the big question is, specifically, what do you want new irons to do that your current irons aren't doing?  Are you actually having problems holding greens?  Are there actually gapping issues?  You keep mentioning your 7i carry distance and descent angle but those are just numbers and there's a lot more to it than that like @RickyBobby_PR already said.

What's your miss right now?  What percentage of shots would you consider "good" for your ability?  

There's absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting new stuff.  I'm the one that created the club ho's anonymous thread so I completely get it.  I just think it's important to understand the rationale behind the purchase to help set expectations once you start using the new stuff.

[Bossfan]

6 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There is more to it than loft. Consider where the center of gravity is, consider where the strike on the face is. How does the shaft pair with the head and how does that affect the golfer swinging the club.

Despite claims about distance and hitting irons further it’s not what irons are for. Irons are for distance control not how far one can hit them, but rather do they go the distance one wants and consistently that distance when the same contact and swing is made.

What someone is willing to give up is individual and personally I am not trying to hot low spin high shots with irons. 

The part about how the shaft pairs with the head is very true. I was in for an iron fitting last week. Tried several shaft on a couple different heads. Som launched higher. Some launched lower. Everyone was a little different. We found a combo that worked well after a bit of trial and error.  Before I went in I talked to a club pro I know. He said there are plenty of good heads out there. Finding the right shaft is what makes the biggest difference. 

[Wheelieb]

6 hours ago, hckymeyer said:

I think the big question is, specifically, what do you want new irons to do that your current irons aren't doing?  Are you actually having problems holding greens?  Are there actually gapping issues?  You keep mentioning your 7i carry distance and descent angle but those are just numbers and there's a lot more to it than that like @RickyBobby_PR already said.

What's your miss right now?  What percentage of shots would you consider "good" for your ability?  

There's absolutely nothing wrong with just wanting new stuff.  I'm the one that created the club ho's anonymous thread so I completely get it.  I just think it's important to understand the rationale behind the purchase to help set expectations once you start using the new stuff.

While wanting new stuff really is the end point, the biggest is visual. But there is performance that goes into my ideation. I guess you could really say that all this stuff has been said numerous times throughout the forum. However, I am also one that knows where my game was and has come too. With all that said. And to answer some of your questions you brought up. My 5-7 iron do not hold greens well at all. The gap between my 7 and 8 iron is 20 yards. My main miss presently is left. And to say a good shot to me is going to be different what a good shot for you is. What I have done now, though, is create like a field goal that my ball must fly through in order for it to be a good shot to me. I’m not a robot, but current irons are at a 50% good shot rate. Using my friends PD irons is put that closer to 70%. I understand what each type of iron is meant for, and asking when should you go get irons that are PD, or blades, or whatever is not what I’m after here. I know in my 4 years of playing I’ve gotten better. I also know that a simple loft change may help, but it may also have consequences. Golf is meant to be fun, but also a slight challenge so you can get better. I may be rambling on right now due to the fact I’ve been studying all night and now laying in bed. So I’ll leave it at that until I wake up. Hahaha 

[cnosil]

On 2/27/2024 at 7:42 AM, Wheelieb said:

You bring up a valid point about adjusting loft. I could go stronger with my 8 iron to get gapping closer to an ideal area, but then I would also have to do that with my my 9, PW, and GW.  I feel I have more control with the PD vs my GI irons.

The adjustment of clubs is what has to be done with most sets.  There are almost always incorrect gaps that needs to be tweaked.   If you data shows that you hit PD better than GI then switch to PD.  

 

21 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

 I love the way my 8-GW perform. It is my 5-7 irons I do not like. Which brings up another thought of a blended set. 

You are indicating that you would go PD with 5-7 and GI with 8-GW which is kind of backwards.   

 

10 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

My 5-7 iron do not hold greens well at all. The gap between my 7 and 8 iron is 20 yards. My main miss presently is left.

I believe you play PXG clubs which in my experience are low spin low launch clubs;  there may be other GI clubs that launch higher and spin more.  Launch, spin, and direction are factors of club design and how you swing the club.  This also gets back to the fact that equipment categorizations (launch, spin, club category) is basically meaningless and you need to hit clubs to determine what provides the performance characteristics you need.   Also the gap that you are experiencing could be because your club has become bend to a different loft or they came with incorrect lofts (manufacturing tolerances).  

[Wheelieb]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

The adjustment of clubs is what has to be done with most sets.  There are almost always incorrect gaps that needs to be tweaked.   If you data shows that you hit PD better than GI then switch to PD.  

 

You are indicating that you would go PD with 5-7 and GI with 8-GW which is kind of backwards.   

 

I believe you play PXG clubs which in my experience are low spin low launch clubs;  there may be other GI clubs that launch higher and spin more.  Launch, spin, and direction are factors of club design and how you swing the club.  This also gets back to the fact that equipment categorizations (launch, spin, club category) is basically meaningless and you need to hit clubs to determine what provides the performance characteristics you need.   Also the gap that you are experiencing could be because your club has become bend to a different loft or they came with incorrect lofts (manufacturing tolerances).  

I pride myself on knowing what is good for myself, and I guess I never really did a whole lot of reading into PXG clubs when I went and got fit for them. My only concern was chasing the distance and nothing much more than that. Now that it’s been a few years, and noticing I am playing better. I am also starting to notice that the longer clubs are not getting to a decent enough height. This also leads to not holding the greens with them. Mind you my 5 and 6 don’t always find the surface of the green, but I’m not using those two clubs when I’m 190 out. Long par 3’s that are 185-200, when my friend from Florida comes up to play he makes me play from the tips with him, I use my 7. I’ve not held a green with it when it lands on them unless they are super receptive. Now none of this is anyone’s fault but my own for not doing the proper research and not communicating that I really didn’t need the distance. That was just an ego thing. It’s not as fun anymore, and golf is supposed to be fun. Now I want to start breaking 90 regularly. The distance of game improvement irons was awesome and fun while it lasted, but now I want to start getting lower scores. Proper landing angle with all my irons is now paramount. But again, that’s me. I think I answered my own question

[cnosil]

15 minutes ago, Wheelieb said:

The distance of game improvement irons was awesome and fun while it lasted, but now I want to start getting lower scores. Proper landing angle with all my irons is now paramount. But again, that’s me. I think I answered my own question

I agree,   you need to have proper spin and/or descent angle (I say and/or because descent angle can overcome low spin).   Don't just think that all GI irons are about distance.  Remember that Players Distance irons are about distance as well and like GI it is achieved in different ways.    The clubs overall design impacts launch, spin, descent angle numbers.     You also need to keep in mind that there are players that are scratch golfers that play GI clubs so it isn't always the club  that drives scoring and just switching to PD or Players irons won't magically make you score better; nor are they necessary to score better.

 

[Wheelieb]

2 hours ago, cnosil said:

I agree,   you need to have proper spin and/or descent angle (I say and/or because descent angle can overcome low spin).   Don't just think that all GI irons are about distance.  Remember that Players Distance irons are about distance as well and like GI it is achieved in different ways.    The clubs overall design impacts launch, spin, descent angle numbers.     You also need to keep in mind that there are players that are scratch golfers that play GI clubs so it isn't always the club  that drives scoring and just switching to PD or Players irons won't magically make you score better; nor are they necessary to score better.

 

Yes, the player Distance irons are stronger lofted, not as much as game improvement irons. At least not my PXG irons. Maybe I’m getting tired of the look of them now, I’m not sure. I can say, I’m just not happy with them with their performance like I was when I first got them. Maybe it’s because they don’t perform like they did when I had first got them. I just don’t know and cont put my finger on it. 

[RickyBobby_PR]

5 hours ago, Wheelieb said:

I pride myself on knowing what is good for myself, and I guess I never really did a whole lot of reading into PXG clubs when I went and got fit for them. My only concern was chasing the distance and nothing much more than that. Now that it’s been a few years, and noticing I am playing better. I am also starting to notice that the longer clubs are not getting to a decent enough height. This also leads to not holding the greens with them. Mind you my 5 and 6 don’t always find the surface of the green, but I’m not using those two clubs when I’m 190 out. Long par 3’s that are 185-200, when my friend from Florida comes up to play he makes me play from the tips with him, I use my 7. I’ve not held a green with it when it lands on them unless they are super receptive. Now none of this is anyone’s fault but my own for not doing the proper research and not communicating that I really didn’t need the distance. That was just an ego thing. It’s not as fun anymore, and golf is supposed to be fun. Now I want to start breaking 90 regularly. The distance of game improvement irons was awesome and fun while it lasted, but now I want to start getting lower scores. Proper landing angle with all my irons is now paramount. But again, that’s me. I think I answered my own question

There could be issues with the swing and not delivering proper loft to get the launch you need. If you aren’t holding greens the ball flight from launch and peak height are wrong and if spin is bad it’s going to make things worse. Descent angle is a result of what launch, spin and peak height are doing. You have to look at all aspects of club delivery and the resulting flight

irs also possible the vcog is not in an ideal spot for your swing. You can look at this on maltbys site 

Edited February 29 by RickyBobby_PR

[Stereotype]

On 2/27/2024 at 3:03 AM, Wheelieb said:

So, for what it’s worth, most of the stokes I was losing and still do at times is chipping. Everyone told me I needed to work from the green to the tee, and I had an issue with that when I started. Mainly due to the fact that if I wasn’t getting to the green anywhere close to regulation, then I would be wasting my time practicing that. So now I’m able to get to the green and give myself a chance to make at least par. Yes, I know 195-200 is not normal for a 7 iron. I also know that for whatever reason my 7 iron was my comfort zone for the longest time. This has caused gapping issues between my 7 and my 8. It’s a theory I have that maybe to me, looks are what really matter. It’s why I’ve not bought new irons yet this year based off looking at the T200’s. But you bring up the T150 irons. Those too are an option I would suppose. At least to hit them and see anyway. I will definitely be going and trying those out now as well. 

I think you'll really like the T150's, I tried the set a buddy of mine had and it definitely fit the eye and feel test. Good Luck on your hunt. 

[RangerGrey]

This is a touchy subject as some people just play better with Players distance irons than others. I'm not sure if I do as I have tried the GI irons and yes easy to get airborne but my consistency isn't as good as with using Players/players distance irons. I'm no way good enough to use blades but I love the blade like look on some of the Players/ Distance irons. I just don't like fat bottom clubs/shovels as I might as well play all hybrids especially when we are talking SGI irons. I like to know where on the face I hit the ball as players/distance irons help me to focus more so feel/feedback is important to me as well as consistency. When it comes to forgiveness I seem to find players/Distance irons of today are very forgiving. So in my case once I left SGI/GI irons I really haven't looked back