Hitting fairways might be overrated

[ILMgolfnut]

Just now, cnosil said:

Hitting OB or consistently hitting areas where you have to pitch out is a different thing and is an indicator that you need to work on driver.

Which is exactly what I did last summer, after bombarding a few condos on the resort course where I play occasionally. And my OB count has come way down. 

[jbern]

14 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Data like strokes gained proves out the FW hit isn’t a very telling stat.  Hitting OB or consistently hitting areas where you have to pitch out is a different thing and is an indicator that you need to work on driver.   One of the instructors I used to work with had me assess tee shots by answering if I could advance the ball toward the green with an opportunity to hit the green.   

I just looked at my stats for 2023 and my lowest scoring round (+3, 75) I hit 4 fairways, but 11 G-I-R. My highest scoring round (+19, 91) I hit 8 fairways and 6 G-I-R. There are a lot of other factors when scoring decent, but it kind of proves to myself that FWs don't mean much. Before looking at those two data points, I would've guessed that my low round would've had at least 9 fairways hit.

The stats I track are below:

Fairways hit %, G-I-R %, putts, penalties, up & down %

Maybe I should change the title of the stat from "Fairways hit" to "Tee shots with realistic chance at a G-I-R" 

 

 

[NM01]

56 minutes ago, ILMgolfnut said:

Interesting. I've observed in my own game (and the stats on my rounds posted at GHIN bear this out) that as I hit more fairways, I also hit more greens, and my scores are coming down accordingly. Of course some of those greens are par-3s where FH is not a factor. And I'm not hitting a whole lot of either one; a round with 6-7 FH is a good day for me.

But I’m guessing with have some pretty big misses and 1-2 big holes can screw up a score card. For you and others like that it’s about having less blow up holes not necessarily hitting more fairways.

 

[NM01]

47 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Data like strokes gained proves out the FW hit isn’t a very telling stat.  Hitting OB or consistently hitting areas where you have to pitch out is a different thing and is an indicator that you need to work on driver.   One of the instructors I used to work with had me assess tee shots by answering if I could advance the ball toward the green with an opportunity to hit the green.   

Bingo.

I had an instructor who had me do the same for tee shots and then another ranking for approach shots

i pretty much stopped tracking fairways hit at that point in my golfing life and haven’t tracked them since. 
 

I track GIR just to see how I did that day and also up/down and sometimes putts.

[NubianRugby]

Anecdotally this seems correct to me. Best 9 holes I played last year was when I 8/9 GiR. 

[Shrek74]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Lou Stagner (full disclosure: I work for Lou on the Hack It Out golf podcast) just posted a great thread on Twitter on this topic. I'll link to the tweet thread below, but here are side-by-side charts of what happens to a 5-index score with each additional green hit versus each additional fairway hit:

That's honestly quite astonishing: if you told me that one round, I hit only a single fairway, and then in another, I hit 13 fairways, and then asked to predict the average score difference between those two rounds, I'm sure I would have guessed more than two strokes.

By contrast, increasing GIRs by 12 reduces a player's average score by about 10 strokes.

There is value in hitting fairways: for those of us looking to shave strokes, everything matters. But even if I went from missing nearly every fairway to being almost robotic in hitting fairways, it makes such a tiny dent in scoring.

Thread: https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1764705382230884498

I saw this in his Friday email. Basically the premise is simple - more greens in regulation means lower scores. More fairways are nice, but simply not as important as GIR's. I still want to get in the fairway more, but I agree that GIR is a more important stat.

[Javs]

5 hours ago, GolfSpy MPR said:

Lou Stagner (full disclosure: I work for Lou on the Hack It Out golf podcast) just posted a great thread on Twitter on this topic. I'll link to the tweet thread below, but here are side-by-side charts of what happens to a 5-index score with each additional green hit versus each additional fairway hit:

That's honestly quite astonishing: if you told me that one round, I hit only a single fairway, and then in another, I hit 13 fairways, and then asked to predict the average score difference between those two rounds, I'm sure I would have guessed more than two strokes.

By contrast, increasing GIRs by 12 reduces a player's average score by about 10 strokes.

There is value in hitting fairways: for those of us looking to shave strokes, everything matters. But even if I went from missing nearly every fairway to being almost robotic in hitting fairways, it makes such a tiny dent in scoring.

Thread: https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1764705382230884498

Thank you for sharing this. This really drives the point home that it’s GIR that really count.

[Javs]

4 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Bingo.

I had an instructor who had me do the same for tee shots and then another ranking for approach shots

i pretty much stopped tracking fairways hit at that point in my golfing life and haven’t tracked them since. 
 

I track GIR just to see how I did that day and also up/down and sometimes putts.

I also believe there should be a category or asterisk if you hit the fringe and can putt. I usually hit between 11 and 14 greens a round. However, there are times when I have a better chance at birdie from a twelve footer from the fringe than 35 feet away on the green. Also I think proximity to the hole is often more important. 

[Javs]

4 hours ago, jbern said:

I just looked at my stats for 2023 and my lowest scoring round (+3, 75) I hit 4 fairways, but 11 G-I-R. My highest scoring round (+19, 91) I hit 8 fairways and 6 G-I-R. There are a lot of other factors when scoring decent, but it kind of proves to myself that FWs don't mean much. Before looking at those two data points, I would've guessed that my low round would've had at least 9 fairways hit.

The stats I track are below:

Fairways hit %, G-I-R %, putts, penalties, up & down %

Maybe I should change the title of the stat from "Fairways hit" to "Tee shots with realistic chance at a G-I-R" 

 

 

Agree! I believe off the tee it position and avoiding penalties that count. Then not only pure number of GIR, but proximity to hole count. You can be in better position on the fringe (not a true GIR) than hitting the green and being 45 feet away with two or three steep slopes. 

[Josh Parker]

Just now, Javs said:

Agree! I believe off the tee it position and avoiding penalties that count. Then not only pure number of GIR, but proximity to hole count. You can be in better position on the fringe (not a true GIR) than hitting the green and being 45 feet away with two or three steep slopes. 

My course is a prime example of this!  Some of the greens are terrible and depending on pin location will hit for a miss just off the green so I have a better chance at scoring. 

[Javs]

4 minutes ago, Josh Parker said:

My course is a prime example of this!  Some of the greens are terrible and depending on pin location will hit for a miss just off the green so I have a better chance at scoring. 

Yes that is what we are faced with here in Sun City at our three courses. Sometimes hitting the fringe or just off is much better than someone on the green 45 feet away with several slopes. 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

This time of year, I actually plan on hitting it in the rough. The fairways are dormant and are all very tight lies. I make better contact out of the rough. There is actually grass there (dormant as well but taller grass than hard pan). I know I've mentioned it a ton of times, but my course has a lot of dog legs. I rather hit it long and into the rough and have a PW into the green than stay in the fairway and have an 8 iron or more. If a course had 4" deep rough, then that's a different story. 

In my mind if I hit it where I want then it's my personal FIR regardless of if it is actually in the fairway. I put it where I wanted to allow the best and shortest shot into a green. Thats a win in my book.    

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Javs said:

I also believe there should be a category or asterisk if you hit the fringe and can putt. I usually hit between 11 and 14 greens a round. However, there are times when I have a better chance at birdie from a twelve footer from the fringe than 35 feet away on the green. Also I think proximity to the hole is often more important. 

The instructor I was talking about had me count GIR and nGIR (near green in regulation).  The nGIR was within a few feet of the green so that generally counts your fringe and/or putting from off the green.     

Proximity to the hole is why they say to hit it as far as possible.   The closer your tee shot is to the green generally means your approach will be closer.    But like tee shots approach shots also have dispersion circles and some will be closer than others.    And the closer the ball is to the hole the shorter the putt

 

[Javs]

12 minutes ago, cnosil said:

The instructor I was talking about had me count GIR and nGIR (near green in regulation).  The nGIR was within a few feet of the green so that generally counts your fringe and/or putting from off the green.     

Proximity to the hole is why they say to hit it as far as possible.   The closer your tee shot is to the green generally means your approach will be closer.    But like tee shots approach shots also have dispersion circles and some will be closer than others.    And the closer the ball is to the hole the shorter the putt

 

I like the nGIR. Agree with the rest as well!

[Javs]

1 hour ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

This time of year, I actually plan on hitting it in the rough. The fairways are dormant and are all very tight lies. I make better contact out of the rough. There is actually grass there (dormant as well but taller grass than hard pan). I know I've mentioned it a ton of times, but my course has a lot of dog legs. I rather hit it long and into the rough and have a PW into the green than stay in the fairway and have an 8 iron or more. If a course had 4" deep rough, then that's a different story. 

In my mind if I hit it where I want then it's my personal FIR regardless of if it is actually in the fairway. I put it where I wanted to allow the best and shortest shot into a green. Thats a win in my book.    

I agree with you. We have the same here and yes I often look at a good angle from the rough.

[NM01]

13 hours ago, Javs said:

I also believe there should be a category or asterisk if you hit the fringe and can putt. I usually hit between 11 and 14 greens a round. However, there are times when I have a better chance at birdie from a twelve footer from the fringe than 35 feet away on the green. Also I think proximity to the hole is often more important. 

One of the guys I used to play with would count anything on the fringe as a putt for his putts per round stat.

[cnosil]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

One of the guys I used to play with would count anything on the fringe as a putt for his putts per round stat.

Lots of people do that.   People incorrectly believe that using the putter makes it a putt instead of using the location of the ball.

[DiscipleofPenick]

I've been saying this for a long time. I don't care if I'm in the fairway. The public courses I play don't have long rough so there's no penalty for missing a fairway. Some courses have fescue if you get really wild though. But 150 from center line or the rough doesn't make a difference to me.

Also, there could be advantages to missing the fairway. During the dry months you'll get quite a bit more rollout on certain courses. Older courses with single line irrigation aren't going to water their rough. So you get more roll and find fliers.

[NM01]

57 minutes ago, cnosil said:

Lots of people do that.   People incorrectly believe that using the putter makes it a putt instead of using the location of the ball.

Agree. He was weird because he would track those for his stats but in all of the side games we had he only counted putts on the green

[Javs]

9 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Agree. He was weird because he would track those for his stats but in all of the side games we had he only counted putts on the green

Did he incorrectly track GIR as well

[MIGregB]

16 hours ago, Javs said:

I also believe there should be a category or asterisk if you hit the fringe and can putt. ......

I think it was Scott Fawcett who I first heard that we, at least as amateurs, would be better off tracking "near" greens in regulation. That certainly makes sense for my game as I can 8 iron chip to the hole at least as well as I can long-range putt. 

 

Edit: Sorry cnosil, I messed up also crediting you with the nGIR comment & couldn't figure out how to fix it!!

Edited March 5 by MIgregb

[Javs]

1 minute ago, MIgregb said:

I think it was Scott Fawcett who I first heard that we, at least as amateurs, would be better off tracking "near" greens in regulation. That certainly makes sense for my game as I can 8 iron chip to the hole at least as well as I can long-range putt. 

Agree its proximity and best position relative to the hole. When I seriously track stats I list: instead of fairways, in position/out of position; GIR and NGIR; Putts, finally up and down. This helps me know what to work on. 

[fredsharky]

I track the following on a consistent basis - but now I am think iof revising it a bit after reading all these posts 
In order of importance (To Me)
1. # of Putts
2. Length of putts (Approx)
3. GIR - But now I am thinking of adding the nGIR, I think this is something that I am missing out on for sure 
4. Prox. to pin from 100yds and in
5. Prox to pin from 150yds out - does not matter if on green
6. Prox to fairway - whether I hit the FW or how far off I hit from edge of fairway 

A couple things I will be adding 
nGIR and position 

The one thing that I relatively don't care about is the fairway and the position that much - I have had some of my best rounds not hitting fairways at all and be out of "position". I can see if you are way off in the woods or something, but I do not need to track that to tell me that was a bad shot or bad idea 
I do sometimes track the scrambling aspect of it, like getting out the woods or some type of trouble 

 

[NM01]

4 hours ago, Javs said:

Did he incorrectly track GIR as well

No, he just decided he wanted to track putts for anything that was on the fringe.

Which was interesting because most of the holes

didnt have a distinguishing line between fairway and fringe in the front of the green so it was really subjective what he counted.

his mindset was he wanted to know how often he was using his putter on and around the green.

he did a lot of weird things. 

[ShimmyCocoBop]

On 3/3/2024 at 10:46 AM, Javs said:

Found this article and I tend to agree. I find that distance off the tee helps my game more than splitting the fairway. 
https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/is-hitting-fairways-overrated-according-to-the-data-obsessing-over-the-short-grass-could-be-a-mistake?utm_term=CFEB69DA-8695-406A-822D-71925C4B6E39&lrh=afabd56f8788996dec1eed39e53e29756a4fe34c1aff9fa4fdfa9f254cbb042a&utm_campaign=075440B8-601C-4440-A9B1-8A7444061AA8&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2F44D122-24D1-40BE-AEBA-0CE1372ECFD3&utm_source=SmartBrief

Interesting that many people are agreeing with this article.

But, in reading other articles on our site, I found two that are opposed to the "hitting fairways is over-rated" theory.  

The first one is a thread that asks players how they feel about shortening their drivers and if they see a benefit from a shorter driver, how much do they shorten it? So far, no one suggested lengthening their driver, only shortening it.

The second thread Is an article from a golf publication that lists 10 things you should change to the clubs in your bag that will help your game.  Ideas are things like installing new grips, shortening your driver to hit more fairways, etc. 

If your golf course is wide-open, I can understand the "longer is better theory".  If you are a good  player, I can understand the "longer is better theory".

It's like driving on a highway - if the road is empty or you are a professional race-car driver, you may be able to exceed the speed limit with fewer problems.  But if the highway is crowded or you are poor driver, exceeding the speed limit will not end well.

 

[cnosil]

6 minutes ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

The first one is a thread that asks players how they feel about shortening their drivers and if they see a benefit from a shorter driver, how much do they shorten it? So far, no one suggested lengthening their driver, only shortening it.

f your golf course is wide-open, I can understand the "longer is better theory".  If you are a good  player, I can understand the "longer is better theory".

The general purpose of shortening the driver is to make better more centered contact which in most cases increases ball speed and ultimately distance. 
 

f you want to understand the longer is better theory read Mark Boadie’s book, study DECADE course management, or research golf analytics.  

[NM01]

2 hours ago, ShimmyCocoBop said:

If your golf course is wide-open, I can understand the "longer is better theory".  If you are a good  player, I can understand the "longer is better theory".

Strokes gained and decade deals with this. Close to the hole is better and understanding the risk for driver and not using it when the risk is too high. 
 

I play a few tight courses and driver is still option 1.

 

[TG8]

Huge believer in Decade Golf.  It will improve your game a ton. Fairways are overrated unless you play on a course with punishing cuts. 

[fixyurdivot]

Not disputing that GIR, on average, produce better scores but FIR also seem to help.  The chart @GolfSpy MPR shared highlights that.  It's been my experience that, more often than not, seeing lots of "F" & "G" annotations on my card go hand in hand with my best scores.  Hitting out of the rough another 20+ yards closer can make the difference in getting the GIR. 

[Shankopotomous]

On 3/4/2024 at 1:07 PM, cnosil said:

Data like strokes gained proves out the FW hit isn’t a very telling stat.  Hitting OB or consistently hitting areas where you have to pitch out is a different thing and is an indicator that you need to work on driver.   One of the instructors I used to work with had me assess tee shots by answering if I could advance the ball toward the green with an opportunity to hit the green.   

This seems to be changing things a bit by adding the caveat of how far are you missing fairways rather than FIR.

I agree hitting greens is more important, but...   

i think how important FIR is dependent on the course being played and how that then allows for GIR.

Sure if i am getting 15 more yards in distance and only 3 yards in the rough or in the next fairway on a wide open muni i will take it.  But on many courses i have played getting 15 more yards & missing the fairway by a mere 10 yards will have you in the woods or OB. 

On a particular course cut out of the woods I won a lot of matches against players going for distance with drivers while i was hitting hybrids or irons off the tee on many holes.  That course closed a few years back....hmmm maybe because you couldnt bomb it and score well there.  The sister course about 10 min away was known to be about 4 shots easier even though it was longer, because you could spray it off the tee without penalty and still hit the green.