EXPOSED: Peek Inside 9 of the Hottest Drivers in Golf

[chemclub]

In case you don't remember... In this main blog article the MGS staff had a few too many beers and decided they should cut open all the shiny new drivers they had (to settle a bet I guess)

 

http://www.mygolfspy.com/a-look-inside-9-drivers/

 

Kenny B and I wondered (in the main comments section) why none of these drivers seemed to be cup face. Whatever happened to cup face? It was bugging me so I emailed Tom Wishon and asked.

 

1. Wishon is the only cup faced drive that I am aware of

2. Tom is the kind of guy who is willing to talk to people who email him

3. Tom has forgotten more about club building than I will likely ever know. 

 

Anyway, his email back to me is below. I don't think he would object to me posting it here in its entirety.

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From TW

Sure thing, happy to comment since this is right up my alley.  Back in the mid 90s when I did my first cup face construction driver, the reason for it was to increase the face flexing for off center hit areas of impact.  Having the welding line back off from the back of the face helped make the off center areas of the face more eligible to flex inward a tiny bit more, which would increase ball speed a little bit for off center hits. 

 

Later on when we learned how to make variable thickness faces as a way to increase face flexing for off center hits, the whole matter of cup face really became a moot point, not really needed anymore.  It's the same for drivers, woods or irons in this manner.   If you know how to do a properly engineered variable thickness face, a cup face adds nothing to performance.  if you do not know how to design a properly engineered variable thickness face, then a cup face can help a little bit for off center hit ball speed improvement.  But not nearly as much as can a well designed variable thickness face.  

 

Then you get into the production issues with cup faces.  With a cup face you are welding the two pieces on the same plane, their edges are touching end to end.  To get that to stay put and not crack, you really need to do that with plasma welding, not arc or Tig or Mig welding.  But with an edge weld, there you are welding end to side on the two pieces so the conventional Tig or Mig welding works just fine.  Plasma welding is more expensive than Tig or Mig, and more expensive to tool up for properly to get the right joint between the two pieces.  So this is yet another reason companies have moved away from cup face construction in drivers.   

 

But the main one is that with a well designed variable thickness face, cup face is a waste of time and money and brings nothing more to the party. 

 

Hope this helps, and thanks for your interest, 

TOM 

[hckymeyer]

Very cool, thanks for sharing!

[Kenny B]

I guess my cup-face MacGregor drivers are officially "classics" now.

[fozcycle]

Thanks TW, I really was able to follow your explanation. Last week I was reading something and they said they missed cup face drivers. You were able to explain why they are not the rage.

 

 

Sent from my iPad using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[PMookie]

Makes me wonder... Is Callaway incapable of making quality "variable thickness faces" since they have cup faces on all of their clubs???

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[chemclub]

Makes me wonder... Is Callaway incapable of making quality "variable thickness faces" since they have cup faces on all of their clubs???

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

The answer to your question is likely better explained by a marketing strategy than a technology. one.

[chemclub]

Update and follow up to original post.

 

chemclub:

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Thanks Tom,

 

One question then. The 919THI is a variable thickness cup faced driver. Is that redundancy simply due to not wanting to retool the manufacturing for an edge face? Is there another reason you kept the cup face design?

-----------

 

Response from Tom Wishon

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I kept the cup face on the 919 because I wanted the plasma welding for the whole head.  That brings a higher cost but it also means fewer chances of cracking on welding lines, not just on the face edges but all around the perimeter edges of the head as well.  

 

TOM 

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[PMookie]

The answer to your question is likely better explained by a marketing strategy than a technology. one.

Is it??

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[null]

Huh? Callaway DOES use variable face thickness in their drivers. The R Moto face has variable thickness.

 

http://cmp.callawaygolf.com/a-callaway-driver-distance-study/

 

Our R•MOTO clubface technology increases ball speed on mis-hits in two ways. First, it employs a system of internal ribs that add strength to the perimeter of the clubface, promoting faster ball speed and more distance on high and low impacts. Second, it features Callaway's renowned Variable Face Thickness (VFT) technology wherein the thickness of the face varies, becoming thinner in strategic places to expand the area in the middle of the face that delivers fast ball speed.

 

 

Heck - Callaway has been using VFT for over 10 years.

 

The Steelhead plus line had VFT

 

http://www.callawaygolfpreowned.com/golf-clubs/drivers/drivers-bb-steelplus.html

[chemclub]

Huh? Callaway DOES use variable face thickness in their drivers. The R Moto face has variable thickness.

 

http://cmp.callawaygolf.com/a-callaway-driver-distance-study/

 

Our R•MOTO clubface technology increases ball speed on mis-hits in two ways. First, it employs a system of internal ribs that add strength to the perimeter of the clubface, promoting faster ball speed and more distance on high and low impacts. Second, it features Callaway's renowned Variable Face Thickness (VFT) technology wherein the thickness of the face varies, becoming thinner in strategic places to expand the area in the middle of the face that delivers fast ball speed.

 

 

Heck - Callaway has been using VFT for over 10 years.

 

The Steelhead plus line had VFT

 

http://www.callawaygolfpreowned.com/golf-clubs/drivers/drivers-bb-steelplus.html

 

I think that is the point. Variable face thickness took over form cup face. Major OEMs know what they are doing so I'm sure they are all using VFT. So the only reason to put a cup face on an iron (which likely already has VFT built in, or should anyway since these OEMs know what they are doing) is to sell folks on the "new" technology of putting a cup face on an iron. 

 

Thus just a marketing strategy to communicate a technological advance without really having one. I have heard nothing but good things about the APEX so I am sure it's a good club, but the cup face is likely just sizzle and no steak. 

[null]

I think that is the point. Variable face thickness took over form cup face. Major OEMs know what they are doing so I'm sure they are all using VFT. So the only reason to put a cup face on an iron (which likely already has VFT built in, or should anyway since these OEMs know what they are doing) is to sell folks on the "new" technology of putting a cup face on an iron.

 

Thus just a marketing strategy to communicate a technological advance without really having one. I have heard nothing but good things about the APEX so I am sure it's a good club, but the cup face is likely just sizzle and no steak.

You are misinformed. Callaway's face cup technology absolutely uses variable thickness to help ensure consistency in distances across the face (to avoid hot spots).

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/281071/callaway-rd-director-on-the-xr-irons-360-face-cup/

 

"Talking about the 360 cup face: By separating an iron into two pieces, you inherently increase the complexity and the cost. And when you weld two similar materials, it's kind of counter-intuitive. But we needed to cast the face independently because we needed control of every…point on the back of the face.

 

We needed to control the thickness at every location to avoid changes in thickness that create hotspots."

 

 

You also mentioned that Wishon is the only cup face driver you are aware of when in fact the majority of drivers out there have a cup face in some form.

[Kenny B]

You are misinformed. Callaway's face cup technology absolutely uses variable thickness to help ensure consistency in distances across the face (to avoid hot spots).

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/281071/callaway-rd-director-on-the-xr-irons-360-face-cup/

 

"Talking about the 360 cup face: By separating an iron into two pieces, you inherently increase the complexity and the cost. And when you weld two similar materials, it's kind of counter-intuitive. But we needed to cast the face independently because we needed control of every…point on the back of the face.

 

We needed to control the thickness at every location to avoid changes in thickness that create hotspots."

 

 

You also mentioned that Wishon is the only cup face driver you are aware of when in fact the majority of drivers out there have a cup face in some form.

The only OEM driver that I can think of with a cup face is Srixon.

[chemclub]

I think that is the point. Variable face thickness took over form cup face. Major OEMs know what they are doing so I'm sure they are all using VFT. So the only reason to put a cup face on an iron (which likely already has VFT built in, or should anyway since these OEMs know what they are doing) is to sell folks on the "new" technology of putting a cup face on an iron. 

 

Thus just a marketing strategy to communicate a technological advance without really having one. I have heard nothing but good things about the APEX so I am sure it's a good club, but the cup face is likely just sizzle and no steak. 

 

 

You are misinformed. Callaway's face cup technology absolutely uses variable thickness to help ensure consistency in distances across the face (to avoid hot spots).

 

http://www.golfwrx.com/281071/callaway-rd-director-on-the-xr-irons-360-face-cup/

 

"Talking about the 360 cup face: By separating an iron into two pieces, you inherently increase the complexity and the cost. And when you weld two similar materials, it's kind of counter-intuitive. But we needed to cast the face independently because we needed control of every…point on the back of the face.

 

We needed to control the thickness at every location to avoid changes in thickness that create hotspots."

 

 

You also mentioned that Wishon is the only cup face driver you are aware of when in fact the majority of drivers out there have a cup face in some form.

 

What we have here, is a failure to communicate.

 

Just to clarify... 

 

1) My original post was about how (many) drivers do not use cup faces anymore as indicated by the drivers MGS cut open. All of the drivers were edge welded faces.

 

2) Tom Wishon said that you can achieve the same off center performance with variable thickness so you don't need the added cost of making a cup face driver and you can just edge weld it, which it looks like the OEMs are doing as per MGS.

 

3) Then PMookie made a joke about how Callaway must not be able to make a decent VFT face since they are making cup face irons.

 

4) So I said the cup faced irons were likely just a marketing ploy rather than a necessary technology since with VFT there is no need for cup face (as per Tom Wishon). My guess is that flushing all of the seams of a thin titanium driver is more expensive than making a cup-faced iron from thicker steel where imperfections can be ground away. So Callaway said let's make a cup faced VFT iron and sell it based on that. Your quotation strikes me as marketing speak IMHO.

 

5) Of course Callaway uses VFT. All the OEMs use VFT. The original post was trying to understand why cup face has largely disappeared in favor of VFT edge welded faces (see point 2 above).

[Kenny B]

Maybe I just don't understand, and you guys can enlighten me.  Wishon said that cup faces aren't used much anymore in drivers because variable thickness face is cheaper and easier.  Seems reasonable to me, as Srixon is the only one using cup-face that I know of.

 

Irons are a different story.  I think the cup-face has value in enlarging the sweet spot of an iron.  I used cup-face irons by Tour Edge many years ago, so it's not new technology in irons either.   The variable face thickness technology used in a driver seems like an inherently bad idea for an iron as it would produce hot spots and inconsistent distances.  Am I wrong?  Wouldn't be the first time!  

[chemclub]

Maybe I just don't understand, and you guys can enlighten me.  Wishon said that cup faces aren't used much anymore in drivers because variable thickness face is cheaper and easier.  Seems reasonable to me, as Srixon is the only one using cup-face that I know of.

 

Irons are a different story.  I think the cup-face has value in enlarging the sweet spot of an iron.  I used cup-face irons by Tour Edge many years ago, so it's not new technology in irons either.   The variable face thickness technology used in a driver seems like an inherently bad idea for an iron as it would produce hot spots and inconsistent distances.  Am I wrong?  Wouldn't be the first time!  

 

 

I would imagine that the OEMs have engineered the VFTs to properly manage hotspots. I picture it a lot like the ENROLL putter grooves

 

https://evnroll.com/technology/

 

where energy is replaced the further you get from the sweet spot. The smash factor on an iron is so much higher than a putter that the sweet spot hit still does go farther, but off center isn't as bad as hitting a pure muscle back. 

 

As for cup face... I guess I will defer to Wishon and say they probably aren't needed except to say that you are putting something new in your iron construction. Even Wishon admitted he kept the cup face for the welding and not because of any off-center performance.