Jump to content

Bifurcation coming!


PMookie
 Share

Recommended Posts

37 minutes ago, DaveP043 said:

Where do you draw the line?  All professionals?  Certain Tours?  USGA events, like the Amateur?  Statewide events, like state opens?  State Amateurs?  Amateurs invited to PGA Tour events?  College golf?  And so far, this has been introduced as a possible VOLUNTARY Local Rule, which organizations do you believe will adopt it?  How will manufacturers feel about having to produce reduced distance equipment, whether its golf balls or clubs, for an extremely limited market?

I'm not saying I hate the idea of bifurcation, I just don't think its workable.  And I really don't care that the strategy of golf has evolved and changed, its been evolving and changing since the first feathery was struck with a crooked stick.

Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.

The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s. Looking at the change from the feathery to the gutta in the 1800s isn't that compelling of an argument.

Edited by LICC
Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, LICC said:

Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.

The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s. Looking at the change from the feathery to the gutta in the 1800s isn't that compelling of an argument.

But then you have amateurs and pros on the korn ferry and other tours trying to make the tour playing under different rules and equipment. It has to pass down to some level lower than the Pga tour 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

31 minutes ago, revkev said:

I would respectfully disagree with you.  That hole has been altered quite nicely to meet the demands of the modern game.  It's actually been shortened, not lengthened, so that the entire field may reach it.  Instead of a boring hole that required the entire field to lay up and fit a wedge onto a green ill suited for it it now allows everyone to attempt to reach but it takes a perfectly hit shot to pull it off.  If you prefer watching a bunch of irons off the tee and wedges in that's your choice just as it's mine to prefer the slightly faded 3 wood to a tight pin from 280 yards and then the excitement that follows when that shot didn't come off.

Additionally it's the numbers that have convinced the field that it is a wiser decision to go for it - they can see that the closer you are to the hole, the lower the scores you will make.  That's true through the green and what is more I suspect that it always has been.

 

Sports evolve - one of the beautiful things about golf is that folks are welcome to play with older, classic equipment if that's what they desire.  That would not be my choice but I certainly know people who prefer that and have found tours or leagues or societies for it.  

It has been shortened? The hole in 1929 was measured at "about 320 yards". It is less than 5 yards difference today, all depending on where they put the markers.

If played as intended, it is not just laying up for a wedge. It is laying up in the best spot, on the left side of the fairway, where there is less room. Hitting the safest layup to the right gives a very difficult shot to the green. Or try to drive the green or just to the left of the green. But because of today's distances, they had to set up the hole to be so fast for its slope, and most any of the pros can hit it up there even past and over the green, that it has become one-dimensional. Hit driver and if you miss the green chip or pitch up from the back. It has turned an outstanding hole into a one-dimensional long par-3.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

But then you have amateurs and pros on the korn ferry and other tours trying to make the tour playing under different rules and equipment. It has to pass down to some level lower than the Pga tour 

Why? For the miniscule percentage of golfers seeking to transition to the pro game, they would all just hit a few hundred balls on the range and make the adjustments. Like any adjustments from amateur to pro level. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Professional men's golfers except the Champions Tours. Easy answer.


The strategy of golf was roughly the same from the time of the wound ball and steel shafts (roughly WWII time period) up until the late 1990s.


Seem like you have changed from serious amateur/college to all tours to just the professional male tours.

I don’t think the strategy of golf really changed in the late 90s. Equipment and other factors enabled players to hit the ball farther. The strategy of golf started changing when stroke gained became understood. Even if equipment was rolled back, to some point players wouldn’t change strategy, they would still hit the ball as far as possible with the available equipment. It won’t matter at that level that they are hitting 6 iron instead of wedge.

The rules already have elements of bifurcation so I am not against that. I just don’t think you will get the pre strokes gained strategy on how to play the “classic” courses.
  • Like 2

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 minutes ago, LICC said:

Why? For the miniscule percentage of golfers seeking to transition to the pro game, they would all just hit a few hundred balls on the range and make the adjustments. Like any adjustments from amateur to pro level. 

There’s thousands of people playing across the world in professional tours that have hopes to make it on the tour. It makes little sense to play with equipment and rules that are different than that. The add in thousands of amateurs working their way up with the hopes of trying to make it. Minor league baseball is the first time that the majority of pros get their first taste of playing equipment used at the major league level and have to acclimate to that. 
 

If the #1 stick on a college team is playing under the rules and equipment used on the tour he wants to be on but someone he’s playing against isn’t he loses the advantage.

 

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 minute ago, LICC said:

It has been shortened? The hole in 1929 was measured at "about 320 yards". It is less than 5 yards difference today, all depending on where they put the markers.

If played as intended, it is not just laying up for a wedge. It is laying up in the best spot, on the left side of the fairway, where there is less room. Hitting the safest layup to the right gives a very difficult shot to the green. Or try to drive the green or just to the left of the green. But because of today's distances, they had to set up the hole to be so fast for its slope, and most any of the pros can hit it up there even past and over the green, that it has become one-dimensional. Hit driver and if you miss the green chip or pitch up from the back. It has turned an outstanding hole into a one-dimensional long par-3.

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.  I didn't see what you did - I saw a shot that had to be perfectly hit with a fade and anything over a slight miss brought 5 or even 6 into play because it could get behind a tree or on the down slope of a trap.   Club selection varied from driver to long iron, and was mostly 3 wood which made hitting a cut harder still. 

 

Absolutely the parts of the game that were tested were different It's 100 years after the course was first built, stuff doesn't stay the same.

To others their used to be a significant difference in the ball played in European form the ball played in the US.  Everyone used the European ball for the British Open because it was smaller and easier to control.  

 

Taylor Made Sim2  10.5 (Opened 1 click) Ventus Blue 5  R flex

Ping G410 5-9 wood  Alta 65 R flex

Wilson D7 forged 6-GW -  Mamiya recoil 460 R flex

Edison Wedges 54 and 59 KBS Tour Graphite 80's

EVNRoll ER 5

Titleist Pro VIx optic yellow with revkev stamped on them

Tour Exotics 3 wood is in the bag because we are allowed 14 clubs.  It's a great club for pulling balls out of the water or from bushes - you never want to put your hand into anything in Florida unless you are absolutely certain that it's safe.  There are rare wind conditions when I might hit it off the tee on a few holes that I play.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

There’s thousands of people playing across the world in professional tours that have hopes to make it on the tour. It makes little sense to play with equipment and rules that are different than that. The add in thousands of amateurs working their way up with the hopes of trying to make it. Minor league baseball is the first time that the majority of pros get their first taste of playing equipment used at the major league level and have to acclimate to that. 
 

If the #1 stick on a college team is playing under the rules and equipment used on the tour he wants to be on but someone he’s playing against isn’t he loses the advantage.

 

How many new players are added to the Tour each year? 15? Ok not triple that for worldwide tours. Still not anything close to a significant percentage. That shouldn't be any factor in whether to have bifurcation. It is a miniscule number of people impacted and the adjustment wouldn't be that difficult.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, revkev said:

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.  I didn't see what you did - I saw a shot that had to be perfectly hit with a fade and anything over a slight miss brought 5 or even 6 into play because it could get behind a tree or on the down slope of a trap.   Club selection varied from driver to long iron, and was mostly 3 wood which made hitting a cut harder still. 

 

Absolutely the parts of the game that were tested were different It's 100 years after the course was first built, stuff doesn't stay the same.

To others their used to be a significant difference in the ball played in European form the ball played in the US.  Everyone used the European ball for the British Open because it was smaller and easier to control.  

 

Yes, baseball has also negatively evolved. Record numbers of homeruns and strikeouts and low batting averages makes for a much less interesting game to watch.

The 10th at Riviera used to be fun to watch. How would they play it? Can they hold the green? Now it is a long par-3 drive and chip. The big intrigue is whether someone will get blocked behind a tree. Gimmicky.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 minutes ago, LICC said:

How many new players are added to the Tour each year? 15? Ok not triple that for worldwide tours. Still not anything close to a significant percentage. That shouldn't be any factor in whether to have bifurcation. It is a miniscule number of people impacted and the adjustment wouldn't be that difficult.

There 60+ guys every Monday for the two main tours plus the korn ferry and I believe the pga Latin America. I’m assuming there similar for the other mini tours that are all trying to qualify so it’s more than just the ones who get added with an actual card and some sort of priority. That’s the just the ones who paid the money to register. Then all the amateurs that are trying to get to just that point. The impact isn’t just on a small number as you think.  

Driver: PXG 0811 X+ Proto w/UST Helium 5F4

Wood: TaylorMade M5 5W w/Accra TZ5 +1/2”, TaylorMade Sim 3W w/Aldila rogue white

Hybrid: PXG Gen2 22* w/AD hybrid

Irons: PXG Gen3 0311T w/Nippon modus 120

Wedges: TaylorMade MG2 50*, Tiger grind 56/60

Putter: Scotty Caemeron Super Rat1

Ball: Titleist Prov1

Link to comment
Share on other sites

58 minutes ago, revkev said:

As I said, you are entitled to your opinion.  We don't agree.  I'm guessing that if you like baseball we disagree about the evolution of that sport, also.

Since you brought up baseball, this is timely from today's LA Times. It compares well to Tour golf today:

The changes are so subtle that they may result in fly balls traveling only one to two feet shorter when hit more than 375 feet, but if that pushes baseball one small step toward its more traditional roots, it would be one giant leap for the game, in Maddon’s eyes.

“I’m hoping it impacts the game a lot,” Maddon said. “We’ll see how it works out this year, but if, in fact, the ball doesn’t travel as far, it will change the analytics of the game, and a lot of things will change off that.

“Strategically speaking, it will put more emphasis on speed, on hitting the ball the other way, especially with two strikes, on contact. Strikeouts will be more disdained, like they were in the past. Pitchers might challenge hitters more because they want the ball in play, and they won’t walk as many guys.”

This from Rich Hill:

“The overall feeling I’ve gotten from friends and family and fans that I’ve talked to is that, yeah, seeing home runs is almost like watching the NBA and guys throwing up three-pointers all the time,” said Rich Hill, a 40-year-old pitcher who recently signed with the Tampa Bay Rays.

“It understandably has a point to it, but strategically, if we want to continue to grow the health of the game, we might want to rethink where we are right now. And I don’t think I’m the only one who feels that way.”

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tiger was the only one hitting it that far (just a handful of others). And courses have been lengthened since then, but not enough to keep up. So having the top 20 or so averaging 300 would get to a good place. 

Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?
  • Like 3

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, cnosil said:


Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

What?! STATISTICS?! Nooooooooooooooo! That destroyed the narrative! Ugh. Dang it!!!! 
😂😂😂😂😂 Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem. There’s a guy on Twitter that keeps posting quotes from the early 1900s about how everyone hits the ball to far. Hilarious, especially when one thinks it’s a modern comment and it was from 1922!!!

  • Like 3

Driver: :cobra-small: King F9 Speedback, Xphlexxx Busa 2 Liquid, XX stiff, 45”

Fwy:  :callaway-small: Super Hybrid 17*, Aldila RIP Alpha 105 S, tipped 1”

Hybrid: :callaway-small: X2 Hot Pro, 20*, Graphite Design Tour AD-DI 105X

Irons: :honma:TR20 Tour P 4-10, :Nippon: Modus 130 stiff, +1”

Wedges: Vega VW-06 50*/54*/58*, Dynamic Gold S400

Putter:  :edel-golf-1: EAS 1.0

All clubs have :Arccos:  In the Winn Dri-Tac 2.0 Oversize grips

Link to comment
Share on other sites

24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

I think roll out is more the issue than carry.  Watching a good many of the events, the amount of rollout seems crazy.  That is where the argument for trying higher cut heights through those zones makes sense.  Shag carpet from 290-310.

  • Like 3

:ping-small: G410 Plus, 9 Degree Driver | Official 2019 MGS Tester

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 16 Degree 3w

:ping-small: G400 SFT, 19 Degree 5w

:ping-small: G410 Irons 4-UW 

:ping-small: Glide 2.0 56 Degree SW   (removed from double secret probation 😍)

:ping-small: B61 Putter

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, cnosil said:


Just looked up pga stats from 2020. Only 7 players had an average carry over 300 in 2020, 6 in 2019, and if you want to look at 2021 there are 6.

https://www.pgatour.com/content/pgatour/stats/stat.02409.y2020.html

The tour average has been around 280.

What do you think carry should be as total distance is influenced by course conditions?

On average? If we get to a point where only the top 10 or so players average 300 yard drives, then the average carry distance for the whole Tour would probably be 265 or so, with the average carry of the top 10 players around 285 or so.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

What?! STATISTICS?! Nooooooooooooooo! That destroyed the narrative! Ugh. Dang it!!!! 
😂😂😂😂😂 Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem. There’s a guy on Twitter that keeps posting quotes from the early 1900s about how everyone hits the ball to far. Hilarious, especially when one thinks it’s a modern comment and it was from 1922!!!

What?? For the last full season, the average drive on Tour was 297. A full 72 players averaged over 300 on drives. The statistics support the narrative.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, fixyurdivot said:

I think roll out is more the issue than carry.  Watching a good many of the events, the amount of rollout seems crazy.  That is where the argument for trying higher cut heights through those zones makes sense.  Shag carpet from 290-310.

Carry is a major issue. When players don't even blink at a hazard 280 yards away, that defeats course strategy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What?? For the last full season, the average drive on Tour was 297. A full 72 players averaged over 300 on drives. The statistics support the narrative.

That’s total distance. Total distance is influenced by course conditions.
We see with majors and the Ryder cup that course conditions can significantly impact the players performance.

If distance is truly a problem why not start with the course and mandate how pga courses are setup. Why does it have to be a rules or equipment change?
  • Like 2
  • Love 1

Driver:  :ping-small: G400 Max 9* w/ KBS Tour Driven
Fairway: :titelist-small: TS3 15* set  to 16.5* w/Project X Hzardous Smoke
Hybrids:  :titelist-small: 816H1 19* set at 18* w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
                :titelist-small: 915H  21*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
               :titelist-small: 915H 24*  w/KBS Tour Graphite Hybrid Prototype
Irons:      :honma:TR20V 6-11 w/Vizard TR20-85 Graphite
Wedge:  :callaway-small: 54-10S   :cleveland-small: 588  58-12
Putter:  :seemore-small: mFGP2

Backups:  :bobby-grace-1: 6330, :taylormade-small:TM-180, Bellum Winmore 787

 

Member:  MGS Hitsquad since 2017697979773_DSCN2368(Custom).JPG.a1a25f5e430d9eebae93c5d652cbd4b9.JPG

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, PMookie said:

Sadly, we’ve all known that everyone on Tour wasn’t hitting it a mile, but the USGA sees one guy, Bryson, sees others starting to maybe follow suit, and they make a rash statement that distance is a problem.

You can go to the USGA website and see Distance Reports from 2015 to the present.  Bryson won the US Amateur in 2015, I'm pretty sure they didn't start this project based on some pimply college kid.  The Distance Insights project was begun in early 2018, and in 2017 Bryson ranked #45 in driving distance.  I just don't think Bryson had anything to do with the decision to collect and evaluate distance information.  Similarly, I don't think that spending 2 years to compile and evaluate data is a particularly rash decision.  Spending an additional year to more clearly define additional areas for further evaluation is particularly rash.    

  • Like 3

:titelist-small: Irons Titleist AP2 714, KBS Tour S, 3 flat

:callaway-small: Rogue SubZero, GD YS-Six X

:vokey-small: 52, 56, and 60 wedges

:ping-small: B60 G5i putter

Right handed

Reston, Virginia

Link to comment
Share on other sites

13 minutes ago, cnosil said:


That’s total distance. Total distance is influenced by course conditions.
We see with majors and the Ryder cup that course conditions can significantly impact the players performance.

If distance is truly a problem why not start with the course and mandate how pga courses are setup. Why does it have to be a rules or equipment change?

Because it is the equipment that is the predominant source of the distance explosion. Cut the fairways a little higher and you will get a few yards less roll. Make every course extremely penal and one-dimensional and you get boring golf.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

 Share

×
×
  • Create New...