Hitting fairways might be overrated

[Javs]

Found this article and I tend to agree. I find that distance off the tee helps my game more than splitting the fairway. 
https://www.golfmonthly.com/features/is-hitting-fairways-overrated-according-to-the-data-obsessing-over-the-short-grass-could-be-a-mistake?utm_term=CFEB69DA-8695-406A-822D-71925C4B6E39&lrh=afabd56f8788996dec1eed39e53e29756a4fe34c1aff9fa4fdfa9f254cbb042a&utm_campaign=075440B8-601C-4440-A9B1-8A7444061AA8&utm_medium=email&utm_content=2F44D122-24D1-40BE-AEBA-0CE1372ECFD3&utm_source=SmartBrief

[cnosil]

I completely agree with what  is discussed in the article.   The data provides the necessary support,  but sometimes people don't believe the data.   Some of my favorite responses to this are statements like "the data may say that but that isn't how it works on the golf course when you are actually playing golf".  

[Javs]

5 minutes ago, cnosil said:

I completely agree with what  is discussed in the article.   The data provides the necessary support,  but sometimes people don't believe the data.   Some of my favorite responses to this are statements like "the data may say that but that isn't how it works on the golf course when you are actually playing golf".  

I agree fully. I think smart distance is more important than merely hitting the fairway. I gladly would take a 100 yard shot from the rough over 190 from the middle. I witness this difference in our Monday and Thursday games. I hit it past most and often play from the rough. Many here never miss a fairway, but they still have very long second shots. 

[LeakyValve]

Good take on the topic. I do think there's a big difference between sweating it over missing a fairway by a few feet. And full on slicing balls into other holes etc. 

[NM01]

Been saying this for awhile. So many people focused on fixing the fairway rather than scoring. Guys post about how many fairways they hit and how they have improved it but most don’t have a change in score.

GIR is far more important. 
 

The article summarized strokes gained 

 

[Javs]

3 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Been saying this for awhile. So many people focused on fixing the fairway rather than scoring. Guys post about how many fairways they hit and how they have improved it but most don’t have a change in score.

GIR is far more important. 
 

The article summarized strokes gained 

 

     Agree with you fully. I like to call it smart length. I take educated chances on many holes here. My length gives me the opportunity to hit over doglegs and on different lines than most here. Often I couldn’t care less if I hit the fairway as hitting greens in the correct place is what I seek. I would rather have 100 yards in at a great angle. Many guys here get fixated on the fairway. They forget the angles, pin locations and rarely think out of the box.      
     At White Wing, the ninth hole has two fairways and two sets of tee alignments to play the hole. Both routes demand a shot over a ravine and either over or between trees. No matter which tee boxes are set for the day I have the length to bomb my tee shot over the trees and ravine. On the back tee box this demands an almost sideways shot with about 250 of carry. Every other player chooses to hit a hybrid or iron down the fairway. Then they are facing a downhill shot over the ravine and a fairway and eventually green guarded by deep bunkers. My way goes over everything into the other fairway. This  leaves me anywhere from 225 to 165 into the green. I have one bunker to carry, but the green has a steep slope from this angle which I use as a back stop. The others are struggling to make par while 9 out of 10 times I have a chance at eagle or an easy birdie. I think this supports your statement.

[NM01]

17 minutes ago, Javs said:

     Agree with you fully. I like to call it smart length. I take educated chances on many holes here. My length gives me the opportunity to hit over doglegs and on different lines than most here. Often I couldn’t care less if I hit the fairway as hitting greens in the correct place is what I seek. I would rather have 100 yards in at a great angle. Many guys here get fixated on the fairway. They forget the angles, pin locations and rarely think out of the box.      
     At White Wing, the ninth hole has two fairways and two sets of tee alignments to play the hole. Both routes demand a shot over a ravine and either over or between trees. No matter which tee boxes are set for the day I have the length to bomb my tee shot over the trees and ravine. On the back tee box this demands an almost sideways shot with about 250 of carry. Every other player chooses to hit a hybrid or iron down the fairway. Then they are facing a downhill shot over the ravine and a fairway and eventually green guarded by deep bunkers. My way goes over everything into the other fairway. This  leaves me anywhere from 225 to 165 into the green. I have one bunker to carry, but the green has a steep slope from this angle which I use as a back stop. The others are struggling to make par while 9 out of 10 times I have a chance at eagle or an easy birdie. I think this supports your statement.

I used to play at Andrews AFB all the time with my former coworkers and some are still friends to this day.

Theres a par 4 that has split fairway with the right side elevated and they are split by trees. The right side is “open” but thick trees down the far right, left side has a couple bunkers and used to have heavy brush. 250ish straight down the left is dead with heavy brush but if you can hit a draw you can get inside 70 yards.

Down the right about 210 gets you a good shot at the green with a short iron. 
 

Green is elevated a bit from the left side and has a deep bunker 
 

Requires some strategy and risk bs reward. I’ve seen easy birdies and some big numbers 

[tony@CIC]

23 minutes ago, Javs said:

     Agree with you fully. I like to call it smart length. I take educated chances on many holes here. My length gives me the opportunity to hit over doglegs and on different lines than most here. Often I couldn’t care less if I hit the fairway as hitting greens in the correct place is what I seek. I would rather have 100 yards in at a great angle. Many guys here get fixated on the fairway. They forget the angles, pin locations and rarely think out of the box.      
     At White Wing, the ninth hole has two fairways and two sets of tee alignments to play the hole. Both routes demand a shot over a ravine and either over or between trees. No matter which tee boxes are set for the day I have the length to bomb my tee shot over the trees and ravine. On the back tee box this demands an almost sideways shot with about 250 of carry. Every other player chooses to hit a hybrid or iron down the fairway. Then they are facing a downhill shot over the ravine and a fairway and eventually green guarded by deep bunkers. My way goes over everything into the other fairway. This  leaves me anywhere from 225 to 165 into the green. I have one bunker to carry, but the green has a steep slope from this angle which I use as a back stop. The others are struggling to make par while 9 out of 10 times I have a chance at eagle or an easy birdie. I think this supports your statement.

100% agree. 

[CudaKota66]

Bomb & gouge....all day long

Are we trying to increase our swing & ball speeds to maximize FW hit? Um...no

As @Javs stated, I'd rather be hitting a short iron from the rough than a long iron from the fairway.....and many times my ball in the rough is 'sitting up'

[jbern]

I’m a huge advocate for the bombing Dr to get as close as possible. My only issue is that if I’m not on the fairway, I’m usually stuck behind a tree needing to hit a 100-125yd punch shot that stays under 8’ off the ground with a slice. Maybe it’s the courses I play in Michigan are very tree lined. I still try to bomb it because of proven stats, but it definitely gets me in trouble frequently. 

[Javs]

23 minutes ago, jbern said:

I’m a huge advocate for the bombing Dr to get as close as possible. My only issue is that if I’m not on the fairway, I’m usually stuck behind a tree needing to hit a 100-125yd punch shot that stays under 8’ off the ground with a slice. Maybe it’s the courses I play in Michigan are very tree lined. I still try to bomb it because of proven stats, but it definitely gets me in trouble frequently. 

We have some holes like that and I either try to find a line that has room or hit 3 wood. I can still hit my 3 wood past most of these guys. It’s the smart length that wins the day. 

[LinksgolfFever]

 

25 minutes ago, jbern said:

I’m a huge advocate for the bombing Dr to get as close as possible. My only issue is that if I’m not on the fairway, I’m usually stuck behind a tree needing to hit a 100-125yd punch shot that stays under 8’ off the ground with a slice. Maybe it’s the courses I play in Michigan are very tree lined. I still try to bomb it because of proven stats, but it definitely gets me in trouble frequently. 

I agree wi the all of the above, with the following distinction; a playable bomb is better than short in the fairway, however, if I have to club down to avoid hitting from potential “jail” I will.  It’s logical to assume and is supported by data, the closer your approach shot is to the green, the closer your approach will be.  For me it comes down to course management and knowing where I can be aggressive or where I need to be more conservative.

 

cheers,

[cnosil]

39 minutes ago, jbern said:

I’m a huge advocate for the bombing Dr to get as close as possible. My only issue is that if I’m not on the fairway, I’m usually stuck behind a tree needing to hit a 100-125yd punch shot that stays under 8’ off the ground with a slice. Maybe it’s the courses I play in Michigan are very tree lined. I still try to bomb it because of proven stats, but it definitely gets me in trouble frequently. 

Would have to see the landing areas to see how much room there is and what the remaining distances are.  Generally backing down 1 to 2 clubs doesn't always  generate better results. 

[GolfSpy_APH]

Can we not have both!?

Distance is always such a big advantage - its avoiding penalties that is the real killer. 

[chisag]

32 minutes ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Can we not have both!?

Distance is always such a big advantage - its avoiding penalties that is the real killer. 

 

... Ideally, sure. There are just so many stats in golf that I think are either misleading or just wrong. One of the only stats I really like is Greens In Regulation. And even then if your proximity to the hole is the length of the green, even it can be misleading. 

... My home course in Chicago had thick rough just off the fairway and a few yards farther, heather that swallowed up balls. Since spring was always very rainy they often could not cut the rough so if you hit your tee shot a few inches off the fairway, more often than not your ball couldn't be found. And even if you did find it, you had to wedge out and back in the fairway. So hitting fairways was absolutely a necessity. 

... Contrast that with my home course in Phoenix and not only is the dormant Bermuda rough not penal, we actually get more roll and on several holes we aim for the rough and LOL, disappointed if we find the fairway. We call then Speed Slots. Think British Open course with no heather. Fairways hit is almost irrelevant. Although straying a little too far from the fairway brings the desert into play so that is a no-no for scoring. 

... I still believe golf is a game of accuracy. IF you can add length to that accuracy you are ahead of the game. Even playing to a Speed Slot takes more accuracy than raw distance. My point being every course and every golfer is different so knowing your own game and how to play any given course is paramount to shooting low scores. That may be bomb and gauge or it may be taking a long iron or hybrid off the tee. 
 

Edited March 3 by chisag

[Javs]

1 hour ago, chisag said:

 

... Ideally, sure. There are just so many stats in golf that I think are either misleading or just wrong. One of the only stats I really like is Greens In Regulation. And even then if your proximity to the hole is the length of the green, even it can be misleading. 

... My home course in Chicago had thick rough just off the fairway and a few yards farther, heather that swallowed up balls. Since spring was always very rainy they often could not cut the rough so if you hit your tee shot a few inches off the fairway, more often than not your ball couldn't be found. And even if you did find it, you had to wedge out and back in the fairway. So hitting fairways was absolutely a necessity. 

... Contrast that with my home course in Phoenix and not only is the dormant Bermuda rough not penal, we actually get more roll and on several holes we aim for the rough and LOL, disappointed if we find the fairway. We call then Speed Slots. Think British Open course with no heather. Fairways hit is almost irrelevant. Although straying a little too far from the fairway brings the desert into play so that is a no-no for scoring. 

... I still believe golf is a game of accuracy. IF you can add length to that accuracy you are ahead of the game. Even playing to a Speed Slot takes more accuracy than raw distance. My point being every course and every golfer is different so knowing your own game and how to play any given course is paramount to shooting low scores. That may be bomb and gauge or it may be taking a long iron or hybrid off the tee. 
 

Agree and it’s a game of playing to your strength and managing your misses. That’s why I like to call it smart length. Yes, I can bomb it and I’m lucky. Even more being able to bomb it on the line I’m looking means better scoring. Another part of smart length is when it’s tight and I can hit a tight drawing or fading 3 wood out there 260 then that is a huge advantage . 

[Rob Person]

I hit fairways, but end up in poor position relative to the next shot (aka very approachable green area) if I end up longer but in manageable rough, with a decent approach,  I'm happy.  Some part has to be skill, some course management.  For the courses we have never played, the latter comes into effect more imo. That's when fairways are the better option.

[jbern]

3 hours ago, cnosil said:

Would have to see the landing areas to see how much room there is and what the remaining distances are.  Generally backing down 1 to 2 clubs doesn't always  generate better results. 

It needs to be evaluated on each hole. Something I guess I’m going to have to work on this year! I’ll try the “send it” mindset and report back on how it goes.

I just got done watching the end of the LIV golf in Jeddah and Neiman (the leader) on 17 hit his drive well into the rough. The announcers then pointed out that he was probably aiming in that exact spot to have the best angle at the hole and the lie wouldn’t be bad in the rough. If he would’ve been in the adjacent bunker it would’ve been a fairly easy bunker shot. Just reinforces the philosophy of getting as close to the hole as possible. 
 

[NM01]

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Can we not have both!?

Distance is always such a big advantage - it’s avoiding penalties that is the real killer. 

We can. I haven’t dived deep into decade but it deals with this. Closer is better doesn’t mean just bomb away and who cares.

There are times when driver isn’t the play but rather is a wood. But as cnosil mentioned backing off a couple clubs to find a fairway isn’t a guarantee and for many mid to high hadicaps it tends to ne worse 

[Javs]

I believe we are all talking about what I have been advocating “smart distance”. It not just bomb it. It is bomb it to a location or angle. Whatever sets up the hole to score the best. Each golfer will be different. However, those of us blessed enough to be able to hit it a long way have options. We can bomb the driver when there is a good line. Or we can hit 3 wood or hybrid and still be long enough to be in position. The bottom line is it’s called smart distance. 

[RoverRick]

Missing fairways and getting into trouble are two different things. Technically, I missed just 5 fairways today. All 5 would count as “Missed Fairway” because they were not within the confines of the fairway. 4 of which were less than 2’ into the “rough” although this time of year with dormant grass, it was hard to tell. 

The fifth time I hit A fairway, just not THE fairway. I played it down that fairway and got up and down from 100 yards for par. 

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, Javs said:

 It is bomb it to a location or angle. Whatever sets up the hole to score the best. 

You can want to be on a specific angle which might be your target, but because of dispersion patterns you can guarantee that you will be at that angle.  Also playing to an angle may bring trouble/penalties into play becuase of the unknown result.  

Shot patterns are wide and you hav no idea where the ball will finish in that pattern.  This is something most golfers should do to understand their pattern:

https://practical-golf.com/driver-dispersion/

here are some ideas on when you should hit driver from Scott Fawcett.

https://golf.com/instruction/driving/when-to-hit-driver-golf/

You can also do a search for his driver decision chart that walks you through the decision process.   
 

Caveat: All,of the above is if you are decent with the driver.  If you are hitting into trouble and taking penalties, it is best to practice and improve driver.  

[Hacker60521]

I’m not sure the article tells the entire story. Couple of quick thoughts.

First, without a doubt the longer your tee shot the better off you are on strokes gained. So distance matters off the tee.

Second, as a lot of folks have pointed out, “missing a fairway” by Arrcos standards could be just off the edge of the fairway to way off course. So then the second / approach shot really matters. But you’ll lose strokes scrambling to save a really errant tee shot. As @cnosil raises, dispersion is an important factor.

So for me, fairways still matter but distance over accuracy to a certain degree. It’s still about course management. I’ll play driver from the tee anytime I can but I might swing a bit easier for a narrow landing area than something that’s 50 yards wide. 

Edited March 4 by Hacker60521

[NM01]

11 hours ago, Javs said:

I believe we are all talking about what I have been advocating “smart distance”. It not just bomb it. It is bomb it to a location or angle. Whatever sets up the hole to score the best. Each golfer will be different. However, those of us blessed enough to be able to hit it a long way have options. We can bomb the driver when there is a good line. Or we can hit 3 wood or hybrid and still be long enough to be in position. The bottom line is it’s called smart distance. 

Exactly. The golfers who are hitting big slices or hooks and finding themselves in bad situations either deep in wooded areas, behind a tree along the fairway/rough, etc have a different issue to worry about and while they may think hitting more fairways is the solution it’s really just improving their swing and reducing their shot dispersion.

Dont have to hit more fairways just have more shots that give them a better chance of advancing towards the green rather than taking penalty strokes. Chipping out of having to play backwards to get a shot towards the green.

Even in some of the thicker rough in play in I would rather be closer to the hole than hitting a mid or long iron in just to be in the short grass

[Javs]

1 hour ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

Exactly. The golfers who are hitting big slices or hooks and finding themselves in bad situations either deep in wooded areas, behind a tree along the fairway/rough, etc have a different issue to worry about and while they may think hitting more fairways is the solution it’s really just improving their swing and reducing their shot dispersion.

Dont have to hit more fairways just have more shots that give them a better chance of advancing towards the green rather than taking penalty strokes. Chipping out of having to play backwards to get a shot towards the green.

Even in some of the thicker rough in play in I would rather be closer to the hole than hitting a mid or long iron in just to be in the short grass

Agree

[mpatrickriley]

Lou Stagner (full disclosure: I work for Lou on the Hack It Out golf podcast) just posted a great thread on Twitter on this topic. I'll link to the tweet thread below, but here are side-by-side charts of what happens to a 5-index score with each additional green hit versus each additional fairway hit:

That's honestly quite astonishing: if you told me that one round, I hit only a single fairway, and then in another, I hit 13 fairways, and then asked to predict the average score difference between those two rounds, I'm sure I would have guessed more than two strokes.

By contrast, increasing GIRs by 12 reduces a player's average score by about 10 strokes.

There is value in hitting fairways: for those of us looking to shave strokes, everything matters. But even if I went from missing nearly every fairway to being almost robotic in hitting fairways, it makes such a tiny dent in scoring.

Thread: https://twitter.com/LouStagner/status/1764705382230884498

[ILMgolfnut]

Depends on how much you miss by, IMO. If you're six inches into the rough, no big deal, unless it's U.S. Open conditions. If you're in the jungle, or OB, or have to take an unplayable, that's a big deal. Your 5.0 index player is probably not going to be in the jungle much, but some of us chops will.

[mpatrickriley]

1 minute ago, ILMgolfnut said:

Depends on how much you miss by, IMO. If you're six inches into the rough, no big deal, unless it's U.S. Open conditions. If you're in the jungle, or OB, or have to take an unplayable, that's a big deal. Your 5.0 index player is probably not going to be in the jungle much, but some of us chops will.

Here are the numbers for a fifteen index from the same thread:

The effect of hitting 12 more fairways is indeed slightly higher for a 15 (closer to 3 shots instead of 2), likely reflecting the tendency of higher-index players to go more wayward.

But the effect of hitting more greens is also even higher than it was for a five-index.

[ILMgolfnut]

Interesting. I've observed in my own game (and the stats on my rounds posted at GHIN bear this out) that as I hit more fairways, I also hit more greens, and my scores are coming down accordingly. Of course some of those greens are par-3s where FH is not a factor. And I'm not hitting a whole lot of either one; a round with 6-7 FH is a good day for me.

[cnosil]

1 minute ago, ILMgolfnut said:

Interesting. I've observed in my own game (and the stats on my rounds posted at GHIN bear this out) that as I hit more fairways, I also hit more greens, and my scores are coming down accordingly. Of course some of those greens are par-3s where FH is not a factor. And I'm not hitting a whole lot of either one; a round with 6-7 FH is a good day for me.

Data like strokes gained proves out the FW hit isn’t a very telling stat.  Hitting OB or consistently hitting areas where you have to pitch out is a different thing and is an indicator that you need to work on driver.   One of the instructors I used to work with had me assess tee shots by answering if I could advance the ball toward the green with an opportunity to hit the green.