A shifting of priority/overcoming extreme competitiveness

[Berg Ryman]

Ok, so I've been thinking about how best to write this thread and I guess it's best that I just throw it out there online and see.

So I'm noticing something about myself in all forms of competitive activities, and if it's when I don't perform I get straight up depressed and despondent over this. Part of this comes from having very few activities and they are things I enjoy doing very much. They are also things that I'm normally very good at. One such activity is Golf, obviously.

A history, I was an all-league player in high school, tried to walk on in college at a D3 school, shot 100. I didn't touch a club or think about playing golf for almost 2 years. Then I got back into it, played well, won a net club championship, and a league title. However, I'm still paralyzed by fear of failure some times, like for example, the upcoming MGS golf trip. On the first trip, I played like garbage on day 1 and got my lunch eaten and it was pretty embarrassing, I played a little bit better on the Sunday round, and while it was awesome meeting everyone and having those interactions I was seeking, in the back of my mind it wasn't everything it could be because I didn't play up to what I considered my standard. Sure, I deflected at times with humor and self-deprecation as mechanisms, but it just felt like I was just harming other's enjoyment because of how I was playing. I try to be a good partner in that circumstance because I can at least help make you comfortable, but that's not how I always want to be.

This was put forth even further this last weekend in my Pickleball League, I acted very immature and just basically quit playing the game I enjoy playing because I was making error after error and just getting hammered by players who I knew I was better than. I left despondent and had a nice talk with my wife about this, where she said maybe if I got my thoughts out about this it could help, I mentioned posting the forum and she said I should, so again, my wife is the smarter one emotionally in our relationship.

So, I guess then how do I overcome this? Obviously a lot of it lays with me, but it isn't as simple as as saying 'it's just a game' or 'you're only competition is yourself'. That makes me feel like I'm minimizing my passions and love of these activities because they are the things I'm good at, they're the things I love to do for fun and destress. I know I can do better because I've done better before and can do it again. More importantly I'm so concerned that these actions and these thoughts are robbing one of the few things I actually enjoy of the fun and enjoyment I find in them. I don't have kids or a group of friends to really kind of take me more in a fun space with golf either, so it's rough. My group of guys play for handicaps and skins, and sometimes I play in league sub spots, so it isn't as simple as shifting the place and style of play I do, because that's all I do, and even playing by myself if things are going south I can't just chock it up to practice or a rough day, it becomes a waste of money and time to just suffer through a crap round of golf, emotionally and mentally.

Just for transparency, I'm currently seeking professional help with my mental health, as I believe that it will be very helpful, but I'm just wondering for people who have had to shift that priority window from competing to just for fun, what did you do to do it? Thanks for reading I guess, this did help in me getting it out so a positive will be taken regardless.

[Northern Monkey]

It can be tough when things aren’t going how you want them to and you feel you are underperforming. I found that when I get like this rather than concentrating on the things I’m doing wrong I try and focus on the bits that I’ve done right. So if you’re having a crap round, but hit a fantastic approach shot on one of the holes, concentrate on that good shot. Use it to remind yourself that you can do it and none of us are perfect. We are never gonna be good all the time, everyone has an off day but by focusing on the good it gives us that encouragement. I found that by doing this it helped me be more positive, rather than focussing on the bad which just got me down. 
It’s not easy to train yourself to do it, and switch around how you view things, but stick with it and you’ll notice the difference. 
Hope this helps and you can get back to enjoying what you do

[RickyBobby_PR]

It sounds like you care too much what others think about your performance. You also seem to be bad at accepting results and letting them be what they are and moving on to the best shot, the next serve and so on. Dwelling on the past which includes the bad golf shot or the bad return, the bad volley and so on.

You have to realize people don’t care what you shoot on the course, how well you play. people want to play with those who aren’t Richards(pc term). Be social, be present and have a good time. Putting expectations on yourself isn’t helping.

you also have to learn to let the past be the past and focus on the task at hand. Yep harder done that to say.

lastly none of them activities you are doing are taking food off the table or not allowing you to pay bills and take care of you and/or the family. Just have fun and enjoy the experience. Your life isn’t going to change because you had a bad shot or a bad round or a bad tournament.

But it may require you to talk to a professional about what could be performance anxiety.

 

[Tom the Golf Nut]

@Berg Ryman first thanks for sharing the "what's in between your ears". I believe there is a time we all go through some of these feelings / thoughts.  It's easy for anybody to say let it go but as you know that doesn't work. In your 20's, 30's and 40's it is so much harder because the competitive spirit and testosterone is surging. As you get older it is easier to sit back and say it was just a bad day and let it go. You had a bad first round on your first MGS trip. Guess what so did I. I think I was 13 strokes over my handicap. But each round got better and finally back in the 70's. Face it, if we were perfect, we would be playing on TV every week. As long as you didn't get hurt there is always tomorrow to play and try to improve. 

I found out that as soon as you start carrying over the disappointment from a bad shot into your next shot, you're done. Anxiety, stress, extra grip pressure, swing thoughts, and now you are destined to fail. You have to step back laugh and reset. I don't care if it is golf, pickleball, fly fishing or whatever. You have to find a way to clear your head. I used to sing classic rock songs in my head to get my mind clear. Whatever you do don't sing country in your head. Your car will be stolen, your horse will die, and your girl will leave you. That's too much baggage on the course.

Nobody is perfect all the time it's just a fact. It's how you deal with the disappointment that matters. I play a lot of solo rounds so my competition is myself. I can hit an incredible shot (in my opinion) to save par or make birdie, and I smile. In my head it's wow I pulled that off. If I tried it again and it turned into a bogey or double. Well, hey it was on me, that wasn't the smart play, and s*** happens. Let it go and move on. So, in short if you really want to get better at something you have to stop being hard on yourself and free your mind up. 

PS: If you are playing the Thursday round it will be a high scoring round so start letting it go now. I have no expectations of myself except for coming out alive 

   

  

[THE GOLF GUY]

36 minutes ago, Tom the Golf Nut said:

@Berg Ryman first thanks for sharing the "what's in between your ears". I believe there is a time we all go through some of these feelings / thoughts.  It's easy for anybody to say let it go but as you know that doesn't work. In your 20's, 30's and 40's it is so much harder because the competitive spirit and testosterone is surging. As you get older it is easier to sit back and say it was just a bad day and let it go. You had a bad first round on your first MGS trip. Guess what so did I. I think I was 13 strokes over my handicap. But each round got better and finally back in the 70's. Face it, if we were perfect, we would be playing on TV every week. As long as you didn't get hurt there is always tomorrow to play and try to improve. 

I found out that as soon as you start carrying over the disappointment from a bad shot into your next shot, you're done. Anxiety, stress, extra grip pressure, swing thoughts, and now you are destined to fail. You have to step back laugh and reset. I don't care if it is golf, pickleball, fly fishing or whatever. You have to find a way to clear your head. I used to sing classic rock songs in my head to get my mind clear. Whatever you do don't sing country in your head. Your car will be stolen, your horse will die, and your girl will leave you. That's too much baggage on the course.

Nobody is perfect all the time it's just a fact. It's how you deal with the disappointment that matters. I play a lot of solo rounds so my competition is myself. I can hit an incredible shot (in my opinion) to save par or make birdie, and I smile. In my head it's wow I pulled that off. If I tried it again and it turned into a bogey or double. Well, hey it was on me, that wasn't the smart play, and s*** happens. Let it go and move on. So, in short if you really want to get better at something you have to stop being hard on yourself and free your mind up. 

PS: If you are playing the Thursday round it will be a high scoring round so start letting it go now. I have no expectations of myself except for coming out alive 

   

  

Great advice and good reading , I am in complete agreement with you about everything that you have said. When I think I’m having a bad day at golf I pull up my four grandkids photos and realize quickly that this is a game that we play and in the scheme of things it really doesn’t matter anyway . It’s supposed to be enjoyable and relaxing as well . If we are just consumed in the competition of the game , we will always be disappointed!

Edited April 1 by THE GOLF GUY

[cnosil]

1 hour ago, Berg Ryman said:

However, I'm still paralyzed by fear of failure some times, like for example, the upcoming MGS golf trip. On the first trip, I played like garbage on day 1 and got my lunch eaten and it was pretty embarrassing, I played a little bit better on the Sunday round, and while it was awesome meeting everyone and having those interactions I was seeking, in the back of my mind it wasn't everything it could be because I didn't play up to what I considered my standard.

I wish I could give you a good answer;  I think Tom said it well that as you get older it is easier to let things go.   I quoted the above because I played with you the first round in MD and to be honest I just enjoyed the day and had absolutely no idea how well or poorly you played.  Yes, we all want to play well when we are with friends,  on an outing, when there are side bets, or actually playing competitive events.   I hope you get it all figured out!

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

As always @Tom the Golf Nutand @cnosil with sound advice.

Not sure I have an answer or even helpful advice other then just working on it. There ar probably some professionals ya could get help from even to just get some good things to do if something is happening in the moment.

Leading up to a situation and having it in the back of your mind is just hard to shake (like doing a golf weekend you eluded to….tough to not go into another meet-up and ignore that and play poorly) working on that could be step 1. Happens with me playing against @GolfSpy BOS I literally play my est golf against him and it’s maddening . While I still don’t play well typically with him I have curbed my expectation when I am playing.

Hope ya can work it out, I’m sure you’ll be able to.

[bens197]

RB… @cnosiland @Tom the Golf Nut both said it so well. I won’t add to their points. 
 

Personally, I think this is you anchoring your expectations against your best rounds and top potential. The top play when you were practicing more frequently, playing more often and had fewer life responsibilities. 
 

It’d be easy to just ask you to quit doing that. I won’t. It’s harder than that. 
 

But if you ask me the root cause I believe that is a big reason behind the why. 

[downlowkey]

Extraordinary Golf - The Art of the Possible by Fred Shoemaker.

It’s a comprehensive text that I think you could really benefit from @Berg Ryman.

The only other counsel I’ll offer is that golf is damned difficult for everyone. I’ve whittled my game down to a (+4) index, carded a smooth 42 over 9-holes in the wind last night and didn’t pull my hair out over it. Can’t wait to get back out there and Mr. Shoemaker deserves a lot of the credit for my rosy outlook.

[chisag]

... I started playing QB in the 2nd grade. Seems unheard of now but this was 1961. The starting QB broke his leg riding his bike and the coach asked for volunteers. Nobody did, so I thought what the heck and became the starting QB by default. This is what I learned at a very early age. When making mistakes and dwelling on them, I didn't play well. When making mistakes and understanding they were part of the learning process and putting my concentration on the positives, I played much better. To be sure, I still made mistakes but I accepted them as part of the playing process. Thankfully I had a great coach that told me "If you aren't making mistakes, you aren't trying hard enough". 

... That experience had a huge impact on my life in sports. Quite simply I found negative thoughts created negative plays and positive thoughts created positive plays. So I would give this very simple advice and I will not preface it with "easier said than done" because I truly believe it isn't. Focus exclusively on the positive while accepting and learning from the negative. I honestly believe I will make every putt I face. 30 foot double breaker and I am only thinking I can make it. Yet I hear golfers all the time say things like "I will be lucky to not 3 putt" and "Double breaker and if I even read this right, I will be lucky to get it close". Wish it and it will come true. If you miss 10 putts in a row, you better be thinking you will make the next one or it will be 11 misses in a row. Instead of thinking "I missed 10 in a row" you should think "this one os going in". 

... At age 40 I had my second discectomy from playing football. I was in rehab feeling sorry for myself and having to miss 3 months of golf and was complaining to the young girl doing the same exercises next to me. After several cry baby sentences I asked if she were doing PT for her back as well and she responded with something that changed my life instantly "I have terminal cancer and 6 months to live so I am trying to keep up the quality of life for what little time I have left". I started to stammer a response and she said "I don't want your pity, just treat every day like it is your last". With that now firmly entrenched in my consciousness and it seems like yesterday but it was 31 years ago, playing golf (any sport) poorly still isn't a lot of fun but so much better than dying 30 years ago. 

[Preeway]

I read a quote by Ben Hogan, or maybe it was Snead, (honestly I’m not 100% certain but the source isn’t important) who said that he expected to make like 6 mistakes every round he played. I found this both astonishing and mind opening at the same time. Here was one of the all time great’s giving himself permission to make mistakes every time he played. He said because he did this, making a bad shot didn’t bother him. He already expected it so he moved on. This mantra is what helped me eventually get into the low single digit handicaps and prevents me from catastrophic rounds. I know every time I go out I can shoot high 60s or high 80s. It’s how I handle the mistakes that ultimately determines my final score. Sounds like you need a good sports psychologist to help you break down your own barriers and build a new mental approach to the game. 

[Rob Person]

First off, you've already taken an important step forward,  and not an easy one at that! You have openly acknowledged a personal struggle and issue. On top of that, you did it in a public forum.  I do think that seeking counsel will help, and is a smart play.  I would say a sports psychologist is going to give you better tools to help you cope with and manage your anxieties and frustrations. 

When it comes to golf, over almost any other sport, every aspect of the game from tee to green is in constant change and motion. You can't control that. 

It won't be easy to change your mindset on how you process what you believe to be a disappointment,  but it can be done. 

I wish you the sincerist intentions that you can find a way to move forward and begin to enjoy it again. 

 

[pgareject87]

First off, thanks for sharing and kudos on asking for help both here and professionally. As someone who has struggled with mental health issues myself, golf has transitioned from more of just a fun game to an active practice of the skills and the tools I need to work on off the course to manage my personal and professional life.

For me that all starts with radical acceptance, and that includes the fact that I'm really not as good as I think I am, nor will likely ever be as good as I want to be. Then, it comes down to handling every shot as it comes. If I do the things I can control on every shot, if the outcome isn't what I wanted instead of getting pissed, I accept that the ball is in the woods, ob, or swimming and move on with it. It's really not that big of a deal, and can give you an opportunity to hit a killer recovery shot.

Mindfulness and the practice of acceptance has changed my life in so many positive ways, and the game of golf gives me an opportunity to practice those skills in abundance. Let's be real, in this game, you have to be comfortable losing more than you win, and the only way we can do that is to just roll with the punches and do the best we can every day.

All the best, and again, thanks for sharing mate.

[Erin B]

@Berg Ryman I had to ruminate on this for a while because I now get very anxious in competition. I hate it, absolutely hate it. I just started competing again last year and this mental issue has been the biggest challenge I have had to deal with. I have always been good at handling stress and competition, until I stopped competing. Now that I am competing again I find myself folding more often than I have ever done before. A lot of people have been mentioning the "worrying about what others think" and to some extent I am in that category, a category that is new to me. I never used to worry about what people think, I always went about my own business. Anyway, your question made me start to self analyze and I really appreciate you asking this about yourself and your issues. It takes a lot of balls to do that. Thank you. My new focus besides my swing is to find my zen. I am going to have a conversation with my daughter about this as well because she once told me that she uses a concept in hockey to get herself in the right mindset. She was taught green, blue, and red zones. (I believe that's the color pattern she said it was) 2 hours before the game she wanted to be in the green zone, then as the game got closer, she wanted to get into the blue zone. She would try to get just to the edge of the blue to red zone right before faceoff and then stay in the blue zone. She has great success with this concept and I am going to have her teach me, although she was closer to the green zone this past season with UW. Again, thank you for your post. Much appreciated and good luck with your journey. Update us with what you find that helps because I am sure there are others out there like us. I will do the same. Happy Birdie Hunting!

[cksurfdude]

@Berg Ryman thx for posting this. Hope it did start to help.

I empathize with you as, believe it or not, I can be a bit introverted especially in larger group settings. I recognize this, and recognize the need .. especially as I get older .. to push myself to get out and engage with people more. Added benefit: you truly never know who you're talking to - e.g. what interesting experiences they've had or that thing that they know a lot about that you may not.

Also like you I can be, like most guys, competitive - but *way too* competitive with myself ... I want to be good at this game; I want the other guys to see how good I am; I want to contribute to my winning team's score; etc etc etc...

 

So, first, at the risk of sounding trite...
You are NOT your golf score.

This may sound harsh but if the only reason you play the game is to achieve a certain score, well then imho this may not be the right game for you... Suggest some self reflection on what are the things that get you out onto the golf course; what are the things that you enjoy about it and bring you back. Perhaps this may be one channel of exploration with the counselor you'll meet with?

 

Second, if you don't think that every person at an MGS Outing .. regardless of skill / hcp level .. is not going to be supportive and encouraging to you, then I'll argue you are wrong brother.

At that first outing I was clearly one of the haha 'not better' golfers there .. yet during the weekend, and especially after the Sunday round, several of the for real better players took it upon themselves to approach me and offer advice and help and tips!!! If those aren't golf buddies then heck there ain't no actual golf buddy nowhere.

Accept that everyone in this game .. not just you, everyone .. is in some stage of their own personal unique never-ending development/improvement process. Game For Life and all that.

The Kingsmill Outing should provide plenty of time for even more of these interactions - and fair warning to the people attending  - I plan to pester a few of you for swing advice, short game coaching, putting help, etc.

 

A little background...
(1) I spent close to 30 years working in the investment industry (aka Wall Street firms) which are all completely, 100% results oriented. Do something right - succeed; do something wrong - fail.
(2) I grew up skiing during the Winters and small sailboat racing during the Summers. Got very good at both. Later on I took up windsurfing and surfing. Got reasonably competent at both.

Then when I took up golf, of course I wanted to get "good" at it, I was like.. 'this seems easy .. ball is not moving .. just have to put the clubhead on it and hit it over there'  .. right?? WRONG-O!!! ..boy oh boy did I get frustrated with myself...

So as I was working on the swing technique, I was also reading and hearing things about "The Mental Game". Hmmm what is that all about, I was wondering..? Started looking into, read articles, listened to webinars, etc and even attended an in-person 2-day clinic.

Tried to but didn't understand a lot of it - the word "process" was used very often - and to me that was the *polar opposite* of pretty much all of my work and play experiences up to that point in my life...

 

Well several years later I dare say I think I may be starting to hopefully a little bit kinda get it.

My focus on the course now includes...
1. coming away from a round feeling like I've accomplished some kind of improvement in at least one aspect of my game;
2. being a bit more deliberate (careful? maybe) with each shot;
3. concentrating on the -action- of the swing and -not- the hoped-for outcome of it -- i.e. process-driven and not results-oriented.

Improve the process and the results will come, not the other way around.

 

One other thing to throw in - at that mental game clinic I mentioned one person talked about "Muse" and how it helped them (this guy was a near-scratch player and the best in the group). It's a headband with sensors that pairs with an app (can be used without a subscription) and provides biofeedback meditation. Have been using it more regularly since this Winter and definitely feel it is helping me learn to relax my too often too overactive mind. Highly recommended.

 

OK, I've really droned on here! But Berg-Dude if you feel you want a sounding board I would be very happy to do that anytime ... just PM me whenever... 

[chisag]

2 minutes ago, cksurfdude said:

Second, if you don't think that every person at an MGS Outing .. regardless of skill / hcp level .. is not going to be supportive and encouraging to you, then I'll argue you are wrong brother.

At that first outing I was clearly one of the haha 'not better' golfers there .. yet during the weekend, and especially after the Sunday round, several of the for real better players took it upon themselves to approach me and offer advice and help and tips!!! If those aren't golf buddies then heck there ain't no actual golf buddy nowhere.

Accept that everyone in this game .. not just you, everyone .. is in some stage of their own personal unique never-ending development/improvement process. Game For Life and all that.

The Kingsmill Outing should provide plenty of time for even more of these interactions - and fair warning to the people attending  - I plan to pester a few of you for swing advice, short game coaching, putting help, etc.

 

... Good stuff. There are always better players and worse players. I do believe for the vast majority, not only do others not care what you shoot or how you play, they don't even notice because they have their own issues to deal with. People are people of course and I have run across my share of low index snobs but find them the exception. Most golfers are always willing to help or at least support others with less skill. 

... The first outing I organized on another golf forum years ago I had a few players very concerned about their play and how others would judge them. I put 3 of them in my group and I think all may have exaggerated their abilities on the forum so were afraid to be "called out" by others. All 3 played poorly and when I asked them independently what they thought of the other players they responded they didn't really pay attention as they were struggling with their own game. Through the years I have found that to be pretty universal and when playing really well the same thing happens, they are concentrating on their own game and focused on continuing their good play. 

... To be fair I think most are at least aware of others they play with and to some degree how they are scoring or playing, but rarely if ever do they pass judgement. 

[cksurfdude]

21 hours ago, bens197 said:

Personally, I think this is you anchoring your expectations against your best rounds and top potential. The top play when you were practicing more frequently, playing more often and had fewer life responsibilities. 

Great insight! I'd mentioned mental game in my post earlier .. a lot of that is based around "Expectations Management", and in the book "The Four Foundations of Golf" by Jon Sherman his whole first section is devoted to that topic.

I'd agree with the above - we cannot _expect_ to play our best golf each and every time we're out there.

 

4 hours ago, pgareject87 said:

Mindfulness and the practice of acceptance has changed my life in so many positive ways, and the game of golf gives me an opportunity to practice those skills in abundance. Let's be real, in this game, you have to be comfortable losing more than you win, and the only way we can do that is to just roll with the punches and do the best we can every day.

Love that. 

 

21 minutes ago, chisag said:

when I asked them independently what they thought of the other players they responded they didn't really pay attention

@Tom the Golf Nut .. I like Country music!!  .. and there's an old singer who said at one of his concerts something like "Are you too cool to get up dance? On your tombstone it's gonna say 'he didn't have any fun but he was cool' .. well nobody cares what you look like, they're all too busy being cool!" 

 

Edited April 2 by cksurfdude

[Berg Ryman]

Just so you guys know, I have read every one of these comments to this post and feel quite appreciated that people are getting something out of this general conversation, so at least we're helping talk about some of this stuff.

Admittedly, this is something that I first kind of touched on with my Superspeed Review and thoughts there, including my thought process there into my mental health and how that impacted how I approached the test as a whole. I guess this is just a natural growth out of that.

So, I have taken some of the feedback and thoughts given by everyone here and I'll admit, I have tried some of this stuff in the past. The reset, the refocus, I even have a hard reset swing I take after some bad shots. To be fair, as a reminder of this I had my wife get my some ball markers from Full Metal Markers and the one I use is the classic Ted Lasso quote, 'be a goldfish'. Some of this has helped from time to time, but it never really sticks.

I do think though you guys have hit on the two bigger issues here. First, caring too much about what others think. This comes down to I think a larger issue i have personally with a overdependence on validation from others. As I mentioned from the OG MGS trip thread, I'm pretty introverted, I don't have hobbies and likes that match with my age group and it has made it hard so I do perhaps place more concern as to how I'm perceived by others in my field and passions. That and the fact that I was bullied and singled out as a child due to my weight and that has been pretty much one of the things I still feel with that extreme chip on my shoulder in my work life as an attorney and in my other passions.

Second, the need to remove the correlation between results and actual success and enjoyment. I think I didn't do a great job of explaining this in my initial post and how I feel about things. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy the MGS breakout and that playing well is my only focus, just that I would be getting more enjoyment from having a good time and playing well, especially considering I don't get much time away from work. I'm going to have a good time, to be a good teammate/partner and have fun regardless, I just know that I could be in my own head about it afterwards.

And I think this is where making this delineation between results and enjoyment needs to be broke, but admittedly it's a difficult one. We look at our handicaps, we look at our results and it becomes a badge of honor or a goal to chase. It's the same thing in pickleball, there's an app there called DUPR, where your rating is based on recent results and performance. Weirdly because of the sports I choose to play, performance is a sole point as to perceived skill level with this DUPR rating and the handicap system. However, again I think this comes again from a deep seeded need to for validation through perception from others, which again is it's own problem that can be worked through with others. 

As such, I've reached out to a counseling service here in Syracuse that has a sports psych guy on staff to get on the waiting list for him, while also exploring general counseling as well. I do also think I'm grabbing a copy of that book @downlowkey mentioned earlier. I'll keep everyone posted and am happy that this dialog has come off the way it has.

[pgareject87]

"Zen Golf" by Dr. Joseph Parent is a great quick read as well.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

44 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Just so you guys know, I have read every one of these comments to this post and feel quite appreciated that people are getting something out of this general conversation, so at least we're helping talk about some of this stuff.

Admittedly, this is something that I first kind of touched on with my Superspeed Review and thoughts there, including my thought process there into my mental health and how that impacted how I approached the test as a whole. I guess this is just a natural growth out of that.

So, I have taken some of the feedback and thoughts given by everyone here and I'll admit, I have tried some of this stuff in the past. The reset, the refocus, I even have a hard reset swing I take after some bad shots. To be fair, as a reminder of this I had my wife get my some ball markers from Full Metal Markers and the one I use is the classic Ted Lasso quote, 'be a goldfish'. Some of this has helped from time to time, but it never really sticks.

I do think though you guys have hit on the two bigger issues here. First, caring too much about what others think. This comes down to I think a larger issue i have personally with a overdependence on validation from others. As I mentioned from the OG MGS trip thread, I'm pretty introverted, I don't have hobbies and likes that match with my age group and it has made it hard so I do perhaps place more concern as to how I'm perceived by others in my field and passions. That and the fact that I was bullied and singled out as a child due to my weight and that has been pretty much one of the things I still feel with that extreme chip on my shoulder in my work life as an attorney and in my other passions.

Second, the need to remove the correlation between results and actual success and enjoyment. I think I didn't do a great job of explaining this in my initial post and how I feel about things. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy the MGS breakout and that playing well is my only focus, just that I would be getting more enjoyment from having a good time and playing well, especially considering I don't get much time away from work. I'm going to have a good time, to be a good teammate/partner and have fun regardless, I just know that I could be in my own head about it afterwards.

And I think this is where making this delineation between results and enjoyment needs to be broke, but admittedly it's a difficult one. We look at our handicaps, we look at our results and it becomes a badge of honor or a goal to chase. It's the same thing in pickleball, there's an app there called DUPR, where your rating is based on recent results and performance. Weirdly because of the sports I choose to play, performance is a sole point as to perceived skill level with this DUPR rating and the handicap system. However, again I think this comes again from a deep seeded need to for validation through perception from others, which again is it's own problem that can be worked through with others. 

As such, I've reached out to a counseling service here in Syracuse that has a sports psych guy on staff to get on the waiting list for him, while also exploring general counseling as well. I do also think I'm grabbing a copy of that book @downlowkey mentioned earlier. I'll keep everyone posted and am happy that this dialog has come off the way it has.

Just for you I didn’t take the initial post as a you didn’t enjoy the meetup. I thought you did a good joB and I read it as the positive, that you knew how you were perceived there but wasn’t how you felt. 
Enjoy the journey best ya can, in the end it is a journey on a road to be better than you are now. We all are on that road, different things we are going through but all looking to get to the same place.

[Erin B]

58 minutes ago, Berg Ryman said:

Just so you guys know, I have read every one of these comments to this post and feel quite appreciated that people are getting something out of this general conversation, so at least we're helping talk about some of this stuff.

Admittedly, this is something that I first kind of touched on with my Superspeed Review and thoughts there, including my thought process there into my mental health and how that impacted how I approached the test as a whole. I guess this is just a natural growth out of that.

So, I have taken some of the feedback and thoughts given by everyone here and I'll admit, I have tried some of this stuff in the past. The reset, the refocus, I even have a hard reset swing I take after some bad shots. To be fair, as a reminder of this I had my wife get my some ball markers from Full Metal Markers and the one I use is the classic Ted Lasso quote, 'be a goldfish'. Some of this has helped from time to time, but it never really sticks.

I do think though you guys have hit on the two bigger issues here. First, caring too much about what others think. This comes down to I think a larger issue i have personally with a overdependence on validation from others. As I mentioned from the OG MGS trip thread, I'm pretty introverted, I don't have hobbies and likes that match with my age group and it has made it hard so I do perhaps place more concern as to how I'm perceived by others in my field and passions. That and the fact that I was bullied and singled out as a child due to my weight and that has been pretty much one of the things I still feel with that extreme chip on my shoulder in my work life as an attorney and in my other passions.

Second, the need to remove the correlation between results and actual success and enjoyment. I think I didn't do a great job of explaining this in my initial post and how I feel about things. I'm not saying that I didn't enjoy the MGS breakout and that playing well is my only focus, just that I would be getting more enjoyment from having a good time and playing well, especially considering I don't get much time away from work. I'm going to have a good time, to be a good teammate/partner and have fun regardless, I just know that I could be in my own head about it afterwards.

And I think this is where making this delineation between results and enjoyment needs to be broke, but admittedly it's a difficult one. We look at our handicaps, we look at our results and it becomes a badge of honor or a goal to chase. It's the same thing in pickleball, there's an app there called DUPR, where your rating is based on recent results and performance. Weirdly because of the sports I choose to play, performance is a sole point as to perceived skill level with this DUPR rating and the handicap system. However, again I think this comes again from a deep seeded need to for validation through perception from others, which again is it's own problem that can be worked through with others. 

As such, I've reached out to a counseling service here in Syracuse that has a sports psych guy on staff to get on the waiting list for him, while also exploring general counseling as well. I do also think I'm grabbing a copy of that book @downlowkey mentioned earlier. I'll keep everyone posted and am happy that this dialog has come off the way it has.

What this conversation had started and the openness it has created is good for all of us.

[sirchunksalot]

1 hour ago, Berg Ryman said:

I do think though you guys have hit on the two bigger issues here. First, caring too much about what others think. This comes down to I think a larger issue i have personally with a overdependence on validation from others. As I mentioned from the OG MGS trip thread, I'm pretty introverted, I don't have hobbies and likes that match with my age group and it has made it hard so I do perhaps place more concern as to how I'm perceived by others in my field and passions. That and the fact that I was bullied and singled out as a child due to my weight and that has been pretty much one of the things I still feel with that extreme chip on my shoulder in my work life as an attorney and in my other passions.

First off, thank you for starting this thread and for being open about what's going on with you mentally as you're playing this game. I think it's a good discussion to have and you've taken the first step in the healing process. 

I can relate to you, I'm also introverted, overweight, and I've dealt with a physical handicap my entire life and that's led to a lot of self doubt along with a competitiveness in anything sports related. I think it's a constant need to feel validated. 

I'll admit, I'm a bit nervous about the trip and being seen as a terrible golfer. The one bit of solice I have that going into this trip is that we're going to be hanging out with some amazing friends that I've never met in real life and look forward to getting to know on a more personal level. I have played a round with Tom and was nervous the first time I met him. He immediately calmed that fear and we had an enjoyable round. 

We're going to have fun out there and I look forward to meeting you and maybe bring grouped together at some point. 

[Erin B]

8 minutes ago, sirchunksalot said:

First off, thank you for starting this thread and for being open about what's going on with you mentally as you're playing this game. I think it's a good discussion to have and you've taken the first step in the healing process. 

I can relate to you, I'm also introverted, overweight, and I've dealt with a physical handicap my entire life and that's led to a lot of self doubt along with a competitiveness in anything sports related. I think it's a constant need to feel validated. 

I'll admit, I'm a bit nervous about the trip and being seen as a terrible golfer. The one bit of solice I have that going into this trip is that we're going to be hanging out with some amazing friends that I've never met in real life and look forward to getting to know on a more personal level. I have played a round with Tom and was nervous the first time I met him. He immediately calmed that fear and we had an enjoyable round. 

We're going to have fun out there and I look forward to meeting you and maybe bring grouped together at some point. 

For reasons out of my control I’m not making this year’s trip. Next year! I really want to meet all of you!

[edingc]

Just want to chime in and say you are not alone in this.

I've hinted at it in other threads but I've kind of had the same struggles over the past year, especially relating to golf. It has made me step away a bit overall. I didn't touch a club for the first several months of the winter, and my posting on here has dwindled a fair amount as well.

You've already gotten some great advice, a good chunk of which was also great for me to read. I really appreciate your openness and willingness to talk about it. 

[Josh Parker]

Great topic and one I have personally struggled with. So much of it is mental and expectations we set on ourselves. It's tough when we know we can play better and do more.  

For me personally, I have to sit back and observe for a moment and remember I have it pretty good and if I'm granted another day of waking up, can do it over.  

As tough as it is, I have forced myself to take a deep breath and take the next shot. 

Thanks for sharing as you aren't alone in those feelings/thoughts. 

[Berg Ryman]

So, we've committed to the waitlist at the counseling office for the sports psych guy as well as am generally looking for other counseling options in the meantime to treat the larger issues. Also my copy of Extraordinary Golf has arrived already from the big Bezos in the sky, read the intro and the first little exercise. I like the deal and what it's promoting, so that's a positive. I

[downlowkey]

11 hours ago, Berg Ryman said:

So, we've committed to the waitlist at the counseling office for the sports psych guy as well as am generally looking for other counseling options in the meantime to treat the larger issues. Also my copy of Extraordinary Golf has arrived already from the big Bezos in the sky, read the intro and the first little exercise. I like the deal and what it's promoting, so that's a positive.

Pulled my dog-eared copy off the bookshelf a couple days ago for another read through too. It’s been lent out to several of my golf pals and always come back with a new note jotted inside the cover. I went through a less than pleasant stretch where my thought standing on the first tee was something akin to “just don’t play terrible”. My golf mentor turned me onto Shoemaker during that period and his thoughtful approach was truly eye-opening. I believe it’s the kind of text with the potential to hit each reader in a unique way, so I don’t want to prematurely color your own journey of discovery any further. But feel free to reach out anytime if you want to kick around what you’re reading.

[cksurfdude]

Also have a copy of Extraordinary Golf that a friend had very strongly suggested a few years ago .. and while my attitude towards myself on the golf course has really improved since then .. I may give it another read through, too!

@Berg Ryman hope things are going well, and that you get an open spot soon at that sports psych.

[Berg Ryman]

5 hours ago, cksurfdude said:

Also have a copy of Extraordinary Golf that a friend had very strongly suggested a few years ago .. and while my attitude towards myself on the golf course has really improved since then .. I may give it another read through, too!

@Berg Ryman hope things are going well, and that you get an open spot soon at that sports psych.

Thanks boss. I was like 10th on the list, but they did say that sports psych cases get pushed up the ladder a bit. Tried a different tact at Pickleball, kinda worked a bit. Played more to enjoy myself.l and bring myself some joy 

Might even be making a club change soon to do it as well.

[cksurfdude]

Below is copied in from a weekly newsletter from Jon Sherman of Practical Golf (and author of "The Four Foundations of Golf") - thought it was pretty interesting and send to dovetail in with this discussion.

...

Recently, I have been reading and researching a lot about what makes humans happy. I want to learn as much as possible and apply it to golf (perhaps for a future project).

I was reading Arthur C. Brooks' book Build The Life You Want, and a topic came up that I have been thinking about lately.

Brooks states, "You can't choose your feelings, but you can choose your reaction to those feelings."

He goes on to explain a little about how our brains process information:

Detection: something happens (like hitting our drives into the trees), and before we are conscious of it, the image is processed by our retinas and sends the information to the visual cortex of our brains.

Reaction: Our amygdala receives this signal and processes an emotion. This happens in about 0.074 seconds! Then, our pituitary glands tell our adrenal glands to produce stress hormones, which can make our hearts start pounding.

Since this happens in the flash of a second, and our bodies are hardwired to do this to protect us (this exact situation could have you jump away from a speeding car immediately), there is no sense in fighting against it when it happens on the golf course.

 

But what comes next is more important...

 

The last piece of the puzzle is our decision. Our prefrontal cortex gets the signal of what just occurred, and now we have to decide how we react. Do you toss your golf club? Laugh? Or tell yourself it was a bad swing and move on?

Brooks writes, "Recognition of the feelings in your body caused by stress hormones can alter that decision."

We cannot prevent negative feelings from emerging. But we can train ourselves to understand them and, more importantly, use the rational part of our brains to replace them after the initial split-second reaction.

I often refer to a simple scenario where a golfer has a 100-yard shot. They are conditioned to believe this is a chance to hit it close to the hole and make a birdie.

Let's say they hit it to 25 feet on the green. Initially, they scoff at themselves and say it should have been closer. This happened to me yesterday on the golf course.

But as I put my club back in the bag, I quickly reminded myself that this was a perfectly acceptable outcome based on my skill level—studying stats from golfers of all levels helps with that reaction. I hit a green in regulation, increased my chances of making a stress-free par, and still had an opportunity to make a birdie. Not so bad!

 

Part of becoming a happier and better golfer is winning these small battles against our own brains. That is why I have always found this game so fascinating—golf is, in many ways, at odds with how our minds work.

 

But I think the important thing is to recognize that there is nothing wrong with getting anxious, angry, or frustrated when we see the golf ball doing what we don't want it to do. What comes next is more important, and we can get better at exerting our control there.

...