Equipment Myths

[JMiller]

another great myth, a 28 handicapper saying it makes a lot of difference after he spine-ed his shafts

 

I started laughing so hard when I read this.

 

I had a conversation with my friend Jim (master fitter / builder I have talked about before). "When can someone truly feel what the shaft is doing in their swing?". We came up with a number that the golfer has to have a very consistent good swing that loads the shaft properly. We figured that this would be a low single digit golfer, about a 5 handicap or less. There are some exceptions in the higher single digit handicap golfers. You have to have a good full swing that is consistent and will load and release the shaft properly.

 

There are some exceptions to the 5 handicap rule but 99.9% of the time they are high single digit players that can feel it, most time those players are bad at short game and putting but have a good long game. I happened to be one of those people, at the time we first had the conversation I was a 9 handicap, I didn't practice and play enough for my short game to be really good, but I would shot a reasonable score for playing once a month and being a range rat.

 

Now, I really have more feel of what is happening in the swing with my body and the shaft really since my long game has actually gotten better from what it was even when i was a 1.1 handicap. My short game needs to come around and my putting to get back to a solid 1 to 3 handicap, currently a 6.3 but next revision looking at a 4.8 possibility. I can't wait to give USPG another try now that I have changed my swing, they sent me two new shafts.

[dru_]

I can shave 5 strokes in a matter of seconds - that's what erasers are for.

 

I drive the ball 280!!!!!!!! (That's the most destructive golf myth of all because 280 for me would represent the typical distance over estimation of the average golfer and by the way I have hit a number of measured drives 280 this season - guess how many 210's that means I've hit!)

 

210 ? My favorite is the muff 40 yarder that barely makes the ladies tees. That just KILLS averages :-)

[Richie3Jack]

Another myth...'I must have a driver shaft that is 46 inches long because that's what the Tour pros have and I'll lose distance without that long of a shaft.'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[JMiller]

Another myth...'I must have a driver shaft that is 46 inches long because that's what the Tour pros have and I'll lose distance without that long of a shaft.'

 

Yup, I wish that people knew that the average Driver length on Tour has been 44.50" for years now and hasn't changed much at all. I am not even sure what the percentage of players on tour that are playing longer shafts then 45" even is honestly.

[JMiller]

Here is another one that I thought about today --> "Cutting the butt section of the shaft will make the shaft play stiffer".

 

A shaft has a frequency slope and the stiffness of the shaft doesn't change with butt cutting it to length. The CPMs of the shaft will obviously increase but the over all stiffness is the same. 265 CPM @ 43" is the same stiffness as 299.4 CPM @ 39"... 265 CPM + ((43-39) * 8.6CPM) = 299.4 CPM, so the scale is based on the length in which the shaft is being tested at.

 

The only way to make a shaft play over all stiffer is to tip trim the shaft, You can trim 1/2" off a shaft and change it an entire flex in some models of shafts.

[Richie3Jack]

Yup, I wish that people knew that the average Driver length on Tour has been 44.50" for years now and hasn't changed much at all. I am not even sure what the percentage of players on tour that are playing longer shafts then 45" even is honestly.

 

I spoke to a former Taylor Made Tour Van worker and in the 8-years he was working in Tour vans he said he never had anybody more than 45 inches long with the driver shaft. He fitted me at 45 inches, but I'm a little over 6'3" tall. But I would say more than 50% of the customers I have insist upon 46 inch long drivers regardless of height and are very difficult to talk out of doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

[GolfSpy Barbajo]

Here's my #1: "I'm not good enough to get new clubs yet," followed by a close #2, "I'm not good enough to get fitted yet".....

 

I actually walked up to six guys on a driving range line and four of the six said this or a variant of it...I tried to talk to them and show them that there was a better chance of their actually improving, if the had new, consistently manufactured, well fit clubs...

 

 

 

Hear #2 all the time as well. Just hired a new man and told him the company takes part in lots of golf outings - said he had some clubs in the garage he hasn't used in a few years. suggested he go get fit for a nice, new set, to which he replied: #2....

 

Told him that since he was still a probationary hire he better do like I told him if he wants to good review in 90 days

[revkev]

I spoke to a former Taylor Made Tour Van worker and in the 8-years he was working in Tour vans he said he never had anybody more than 45 inches long with the driver shaft. He fitted me at 45 inches, but I'm a little over 6'3" tall. But I would say more than 50% of the customers I have insist upon 46 inch long drivers regardless of height and are very difficult to talk out of doing so.

 

 

 

 

 

3JACK

 

 

I've been off line the past couple of days - hate it when work gets in the way like that. Actually when my work gets in the way it's normally tragic for someone else so I shouldn't say that. And this has been a tragic last couple of days for two of my families.

 

At any rate - I love this thread thanks jmiller - I pulled this one because it illustrates my frustration with the game of golf and in general with life. Most people do not like change. To improve as golfers they need to change. To improve their life situation they need to change but they don't want to do it. Manufactures put cheap 46" shafts in their drivers because it sells more drivers not because it promotes better golf. But you can't tell people that because suddenly they wouldn't have the same equipment as their friends or heaven forbid as the hat being worn and commercials being made by the pros.

 

At my course people don't know me or for that matter any of the better players that I know for the equipment we play - they know us as good golfers - I'd rather be known as a good golfer than the guy who hits it farthest or the one who's the great ball striker that can't put or anything else really.

[JMiller]

This reminded me of a thread on another sight where they were talkin about the R11 and the guy had his hdcp listed @ 17 and his comment was that the thing that he liked most about his R11 was his ability to feel the head "right before impact"......I have absolutely no clue what this feels like....

 

I, in a straight forward question, asked him what that felt like...He answered that "I would know it when I felt it".....

 

What the hell?.....

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever...

 

I'll answer the question of "what does it feel like to feel the head just before impact" and what I mean by feeling a shaft profile in the swing.

 

The weight of the head is going to stress the shaft in two main places in a great golf swing, first being the transition "lag" stress on the shaft from the top of the backswing down to the thigh high position. This is where a golfer might feel the shaft bend high, middle, or low depending on the bend point, most shaft That I play are "high kick" and bend very high in the transition.

 

The next location is just before impact, through impact, and just after impact if the shaft has a lot of movement. Like "flipping" or "twisting" low in the shaft. when the tip section is too weak for the player. With passive hands into impact the shaft will do things that you might not expect.

 

For most people ability to "feel the head just before impact" is a simple swing weight thing. how heavy the head feels low in the swing. I know that in my swing that if the head gets too light and I can't feel it in my swing I struggle with controlling the face position into impact. I personally like heavier heads that I can feel all the way through the swing.

 

To develop that level of feel it is my opinion that you have to have a consistent golf swing that is repeatable and proper down swing sequence that actually stresses the shaft do to the head weight.

 

Not sure if that clears up what the conversation was about or not

[GolfSpy WD]

Here's my #1: "I'm not good enough to get new clubs yet," followed by a close #2, "I'm not good enough to get fitted yet".....

 

I know this runs counter to a lot of what is said on these forums, but based on talking to several pros with more knowledge than I, I would agree with these two points, unless of course the person doesn't have any clubs worth bringing to the course (i.e. something pre-modern era as with Barbajo's employee, blades, or anything worn out).

 

No one should go out and get fit if they have zero consistency because in the end, the fitting will only be for one of their multiple swings. I'm not saying someone should be perfect or even a sub 10 handicap, but for most high handicappers a new set of clubs won't help nearly as much as lessons. Fitting is about fine tuning your game. If you have the funds, by all means get fit a new set, but also take lessons (and then re-fit your clubs after).

 

I say this even for people who produce a lot of spin or very little spin on the ball as well. Don't worry about distance as much as getting a consistent swing. Then get fit and you won't need another set of clubs for a long time.

[BK in TEXAS]

So along with being a natural cynic based on my 52 years on earth, playing this game has only increased my cynism when listening to others discuss their game, especially on a computer thread....

Wait...so everything you read on the internet isn't true? Rut Roh.

 

I'm sure there is a logical explanation...maybe their sentences got cut off....

 

"I drive the ball 280 yards" downhill, on a baked fairway, with a stiff tailwind.

"I can curve the ball left or right" just don't ask me to call the shot before I hit it.

" I can feel the head before impact" way before, like when I'm taking off the headcover. Feels nice.

[Matt Saternus]

Wait...so everything you read on the internet isn't true? Rut Roh.

 

I'm sure there is a logical explanation...maybe their sentences got cut off....

 

"I drive the ball 280 yards" downhill, on a baked fairway, with a stiff tailwind.

"I can curve the ball left or right" just don't ask me to call the shot before I hit it.

" I can feel the head before impact" way before, like when I'm taking off the headcover. Feels nice.

 

LOL. Great post.

 

I had a student look me dead in the eye yesterday and tell me that he hit a drive 330. I looked right back at him and asked him how many times it bounced on the cart path.

[revkev]

Amen to JP -

 

I often come across as obnoxious because of that but the reality for me is that I live in Florida. Regardless of what you might think this is a place full of lots of very good golfers, particulary in the winter time. I know lots of people who think all kinds of things about their game - very little of it is true. In general the better the player the more likely he or she is to have an honest assesment of his game. Tests about distance and other aspects of the game bear this out. The lower the handicap the less likely to over estimate distance - the average golfer overestimates by upwards of 40 yards - but of course I'm not a part of that over estimation - I'm the one who really hits it 280 so it must apply to the other guy and on and on it goes.

 

Most of the time I give - I've only seen one person on these forums actually play - Dogpro - but he's pretty silent about his game - he's a man of few words which is too bad because he's a great guy.

 

Honestly most of the time I give in, in person too - two of my favorite guys to play with are mid to higher handicappers - ones a 14 the other a 22 - The 14 listens to me - the 22? Forget about it - The 22 has more natural ability than the 14 - guess why he's a 22 - If I'm hitting 6 the 14 hits 5 and the 22 hits 7 even though the 22 and I hit it the same distance when we catch it flush. If I hit driver the 14 hits driver, if I lay up the 14 lays up - he's learned - he still needs to invest time in his short game but he's learned. The 22 won't even listen to me when I tell him to be sure and clean his ball before he putts because you never know. So I buy him a beer when it's my turn and just let him play his game.

 

Back to WD's comment - there is a caveat here - if someone is playing with clubs that are drastically misfit - ie. wrong lie angle on the clubs, wrong length shafts, clubs that are too heavy, to stiff a shaft they have already built in impediments to learning what the teacher wants to teach - I'd think you'd at least want a set of clubs that has been static fit - they could be used and inexpensive so that you have the best of both worlds going - a cheap but functional set of clubs with enough money left over for lessons.

 

I'd probably quit if I had to use Tiger Wood's clubs to play the game (not a knock on Nike - I'm meaning the long irons and tour stiff, low launch, low spin shafts) - can't even imagine what would happen to a beginner who stumbled into that sort of set - and it happens.

[JMiller]

Wait...so everything you read on the internet isn't true? Rut Roh.

 

I'm sure there is a logical explanation...maybe their sentences got cut off....

 

"I drive the ball 280 yards" downhill, on a baked fairway, with a stiff tailwind.

"I can curve the ball left or right" just don't ask me to call the shot before I hit it.

" I can feel the head before impact" way before, like when I'm taking off the headcover. Feels nice.

 

great post BK that made me laugh good way to start my day.

[revkev]

Great post BK - absolutely loved it!!!!! That's what I call putting the best construction on what someone is say.

 

Oh and Matt I hit it 330 all the time - do you want to know my secret?

 

Number 1 at my course is 330 - I hit 3 wood 215 just short of the fairway trap and pitching wedge just below the pin to leave an uphill putt. It's very easy to hit it 330 don't you see.

[ninjacobra]

I know this runs counter to a lot of what is said on these forums, but based on talking to several pros with more knowledge than I, I would agree with these two points, unless of course the person doesn't have any clubs worth bringing to the course (i.e. something pre-modern era as with Barbajo's employee, blades, or anything worn out).

 

No one should go out and get fit if they have zero consistency because in the end, the fitting will only be for one of their multiple swings. I'm not saying someone should be perfect or even a sub 10 handicap, but for most high handicappers a new set of clubs won't help nearly as much as lessons. Fitting is about fine tuning your game. If you have the funds, by all means get fit a new set, but also take lessons (and then re-fit your clubs after).

 

I say this even for people who produce a lot of spin or very little spin on the ball as well. Don't worry about distance as much as getting a consistent swing. Then get fit and you won't need another set of clubs for a long time.

 

wd that is completely right. i guess what matters is the high handi shd gt fit for length and lie and also a shaft flex. most beginners/high shooters wl not need a shaft of an exotic variant. they can spend the spare cash on lessons and reduce the number of inconsistencies

[ninjacobra]

LOL. Great post.

 

I had a student look me dead in the eye yesterday and tell me that he hit a drive 330. I looked right back at him and asked him how many times it bounced on the cart path.

330? maybe on the busted simulator we hv. i hit a 6 iron 230 n my drive 350 this mornin, i knw in this universe its not gnna be possible for me under normal conditions lol

[GolfSpy WD]

wd that is completely right. i guess what matters is the high handi shd gt fit for length and lie and also a shaft flex. most beginners/high shooters wl not need a shaft of an exotic variant. they can spend the spare cash on lessons and reduce the number of inconsistencies

 

Length is the only thing to worry about until after your first lesson. The wrist to ground measurement really work well for length so having a consistent swing isn't important. The good news is that length is relatively cheap to modify for existing clubs and very cheap if you know how to do it yourself.

 

Lie on the otherhand, I wouldn't recommend until at least one lesson based on my personal experience. One of the first things my instructor told me was to hold the club more upright, which obviously drastically affects lie.

[JMiller]

I know this runs counter to a lot of what is said on these forums, but based on talking to several pros with more knowledge than I, I would agree with these two points, unless of course the person doesn't have any clubs worth bringing to the course (i.e. something pre-modern era as with Barbajo's employee, blades, or anything worn out).

 

No one should go out and get fit if they have zero consistency because in the end, the fitting will only be for one of their multiple swings. I'm not saying someone should be perfect or even a sub 10 handicap, but for most high handicappers a new set of clubs won't help nearly as much as lessons. Fitting is about fine tuning your game. If you have the funds, by all means get fit a new set, but also take lessons (and then re-fit your clubs after).

 

I say this even for people who produce a lot of spin or very little spin on the ball as well. Don't worry about distance as much as getting a consistent swing. Then get fit and you won't need another set of clubs for a long time.

 

I think I over looked this first time until people started quoting it... I only agree with part of this perspective for simple fact I am friends with a master fitter / builder so I get a different look at fittings of all sorts of handicaps that he deals with in fittings...

 

As the old saying goes "you get what you pay for", if someone that is fitting you in 30 minutes for $20 it is only going to be very basic like shaft flex for swing speed, grip size, etc. If someone is fitting you over 1 or 2 hours and you are paying $100 it better be detailed enough to custom order Miura or Tour custom Scratch very high end equipment that is PERFECT for that person.

 

In my fittings with my friend (master fitter / builder ~ Adams Tour Tech Shop, Miura Shop), we have always done average swings and then sort of built in about a 2 to 3mph additional swing speed calculation for the shots that I can "step on it" and have that shaft still preform well. We get the averages after about an hour take a break and come to a fitting then the next hour is testing it and giving it a few "step on it" type of swings where I am swinging harder then I ever probably would on the course. If the shaft preforms on 1/2 swings, 3/4 swings, Regular full swings and pure full throttle then I have a good fit.

 

For a high handicap golfer a lot of times it turns into a basic lesson so that he can get some good swings to make his recommendations on a fitting. He tends to fit mid to high handicap golfers to their best swings. It is pretty straight forward that when they have something that fits really well and preforms will under the best conditions, it is still going to preform well on swings that are sub-quality for that person. I have seen some high handicappers come in for a fitting with him and leave without buying anything and saying "that is the best lesson I have ever had" and hand him a $50 tip. He always just says to come see him in a few weeks of practicing the tips that he gave then they can do a reassessment.

 

I think it comes down to the motivation of the fitter, are they really there to help you or are they there to sell you products and goods that you may not actually need?

[GolfSpy WD]

I think I over looked this first time until people started quoting it... I only agree with part of this perspective for simple fact I am friends with a master fitter / builder so I get a different look at fittings of all sorts of handicaps that he deals with in fittings...

 

As the old saying goes "you get what you pay for", if someone that is fitting you in 30 minutes for $20 it is only going to be very basic like shaft flex for swing speed, grip size, etc. If someone is fitting you over 1 or 2 hours and you are paying $100 it better be detailed enough to custom order Miura or Tour custom Scratch very high end equipment that is PERFECT for that person.

 

In my fittings with my friend (master fitter / builder ~ Adams Tour Tech Shop, Miura Shop), we have always done average swings and then sort of built in about a 2 to 3mph additional swing speed calculation for the shots that I can "step on it" and have that shaft still preform well. We get the averages after about an hour take a break and come to a fitting then the next hour is testing it and giving it a few "step on it" type of swings where I am swinging harder then I ever probably would on the course. If the shaft preforms on 1/2 swings, 3/4 swings, Regular full swings and pure full throttle then I have a good fit.

 

For a high handicap golfer a lot of times it turns into a basic lesson so that he can get some good swings to make his recommendations on a fitting. He tends to fit mid to high handicap golfers to their best swings. It is pretty straight forward that when they have something that fits really well and preforms will under the best conditions, it is still going to preform well on swings that are sub-quality for that person. I have seen some high handicappers come in for a fitting with him and leave without buying anything and saying "that is the best lesson I have ever had" and hand him a $50 tip. He always just says to come see him in a few weeks of practicing the tips that he gave then they can do a reassessment.

 

I think it comes down to the motivation of the fitter, are they really there to help you or are they there to sell you products and goods that you may not actually need?

 

I think we're saying the same thing based what you're saying. When a fitting turns into a lesson, it means that the swing is not consistent enough to give a very suggestion on what the person should play. A lot of high handicappers are plagued by huge swings between good days and bad days and can't figure out why. That's why using average or best swing isn't always great because nothing is reproducible.

 

It absolutely comes down to the fitter being honest with his customer in this case. He could easily fit them to something knowing they'll be back next year or be honest, have them get good lessons and then come back. There's nothing wrong with charging for the initial fitting though even if they don't walk away with anything other than a lesson.

 

What you say about fitters is also true about teachers. Most teachers aren't very good, so just like it's worth going out of your way for a good fitter, the same holds true for a good teacher.

[revkev]

I think WD is talking about an absolute beginner and not a high handicapper who has perhaps been playing for a while and is unable to advance.

 

While I agree that spending money on a total fitting is a waste for that beginner I disagree that he should ignore the specs of his clubs altogether - again I'll sight the example of accidentally stumbling onto a used set of Tiger's irons on ebay and picking them up - it's possible for the equipment to be an impediment to the point that the guy quits before he gets on the course. Don't laugh either I've seen it - I have a very good friend who began playing four years ago and decided to save money by buying a set of irons on ebay. He got Ping blades that are to die for with tour stiff shafts an inch longer than standard and an upright lie because he's tall and thought that would work, he had heard that Ping makes good clubs and he thought heck if they are tour shafts they must be quality.

 

I love the clubs and would take them off his hands, cut them down and have the lies flattened (I probably should have them reshafted too but my swing is consistent enought that I can hit them.) He can't hit them worth a lick and has finally after years of cajoling and a gift of a visit to my fitter abandoned that ship. He's also had lessons at golftech - why they didn't take those clubs and snap each of them is beyond me but perhaps his instructor was recommending that he buy new ones - I don't know - I wasn't there. He now has so many bad habits that he might be better off quitting for a couple of years and starting over.

 

In a perfect world a beginner should get with his or her instructor prior to the lesson and ask - what should I buy? Hopefully that instructor has the good sense to recommend somthing inexpensive and short of a full set (one lofted wood, a hybrid, 3 irons, a sand wedge and a putter should do nicely.) The static fitting would be important because a good instructor will taylor a person's swing to his body type - the way my arms lay it makes sense for me to have irons with a flat lie - I have a friend who's the same heighth and basic body build than I am but his arms are a different length - therefore he swings far more upright than I do and needs a more upright lie. An experienced instructor would pick this up and help the beginner into a cost effective set that will make it easier for him to have fun learning the game.

 

Most of the beginners I see are playing with hand me downs, yard sale specials or something they picked up cheap on ebay that might be better suited for someone entirely different than themself.

 

I agree with the basic premise that the beginner shouldn't pay much for clubs I disagree that they should ignore their clubs altogether - I don't think that's the point that wd was trying to make but I could be mistaken.

[JMiller]

A lot of high handicappers are plagued by huge swings between good days and bad days and can't figure out why. That's why using average or best swing isn't always great because nothing is reproducible.

 

Well we are close on this but not exactly the same... I think it is always better to fit a player to their best swings then their average swings. Regardless of the level of player. The better the golfer the more likely the average is actually a repeatable best swing. Let me give two examples for a high handicapper.

 

You fit a person to a shaft using their 5 best swings, we can agree the shaft is going to preform the best under those conditions. Now look at the swings that are not so great, does that shaft make it a penalty to make a bad swing? No that shaft is still going to preform okay under the worst swings and the average swings for the high handicapper.

 

You fit a person to the average 5 swings where they are some what most consistent swing, this could be a lot bigger swing between the best shots of a high handicap and the average, think we agree on that. Now lets assume that this player makes the 1 or 2 really good swings in a round, now the shaft most likely is not going to preform the way it is expected to possibly producing a shot result that is not favorable, this player now thinks it is something they are doing wrong and create more problems in the swing.

--> The perfect example is some higher single digit players that think hooking is something they are doing in their swings when in reality the shaft tip is probably flipping the head over on there best swings and preforming well under normal swings.

 

It is always better to error on the side of the shaft preforming the best under the best swings and holding up just fine on less then good swings then have a shaft under preform for a player on their best swings. I would rather give a reword for a player making a great swing then give them a penalty in a bad shot result on a good swing.

[GolfSpy WD]

I think WD is talking about an absolute beginner and not a high handicapper who has perhaps been playing for a while and is unable to advance.

 

While I agree that spending money on a total fitting is a waste for that beginner I disagree that he should ignore the specs of his clubs altogether - again I'll sight the example of accidentally stumbling onto a used set of Tiger's irons on ebay and picking them up - it's possible for the equipment to be an impediment to the point that the guy quits before he gets on the course. Don't laugh either I've seen it - I have a very good friend who began playing four years ago and decided to save money by buying a set of irons on ebay. He got Ping blades that are to die for with tour stiff shafts an inch longer than standard and an upright lie because he's tall and thought that would work, he had heard that Ping makes good clubs and he thought heck if they are tour shafts they must be quality.

 

I love the clubs and would take them off his hands, cut them down and have the lies flattened (I probably should have them reshafted too but my swing is consistent enought that I can hit them.) He can't hit them worth a lick and has finally after years of cajoling and a gift of a visit to my fitter abandoned that ship. He's also had lessons at golftech - why they didn't take those clubs and snap each of them is beyond me but perhaps his instructor was recommending that he buy new ones - I don't know - I wasn't there. He now has so many bad habits that he might be better off quitting for a couple of years and starting over.

 

In a perfect world a beginner should get with his or her instructor prior to the lesson and ask - what should I buy? Hopefully that instructor has the good sense to recommend somthing inexpensive and short of a full set (one lofted wood, a hybrid, 3 irons, a sand wedge and a putter should do nicely.) The static fitting would be important because a good instructor will taylor a person's swing to his body type - the way my arms lay it makes sense for me to have irons with a flat lie - I have a friend who's the same heighth and basic body build than I am but his arms are a different length - therefore he swings far more upright than I do and needs a more upright lie. An experienced instructor would pick this up and help the beginner into a cost effective set that will make it easier for him to have fun learning the game.

 

Most of the beginners I see are playing with hand me downs, yard sale specials or something they picked up cheap on ebay that might be better suited for someone entirely different than themself.

 

I agree with the basic premise that the beginner shouldn't pay much for clubs I disagree that they should ignore their clubs altogether - I don't think that's the point that wd was trying to make but I could be mistaken.

 

I agree it shouldn't be ignored (see a few posts up), I'm just saying a current set can be tweaked much cheaper than a new set assuming the current set isn't horribly old. The main point I'm saying though is there does exist a point where someone is not good enough to go to a good fitter for a whole new set of clubs. At least not if they don't want to change sets or specs again in a few months.

 

And I am talking about high handicappers in general, not just beginners. People can score consistently without having a consistent swing or good fundamentals. By that I mean a short game can fix pretty much everything.

[GolfSpy WD]

Well we are close on this but not exactly the same... I think it is always better to fit a player to their best swings then their average swings. Regardless of the level of player. The better the golfer the more likely the average is actually a repeatable best swing. Let me give two examples for a high handicapper.

 

You fit a person to a shaft using their 5 best swings, we can agree the shaft is going to preform the best under those conditions. Now look at the swings that are not so great, does that shaft make it a penalty to make a bad swing? No that shaft is still going to preform okay under the worst swings and the average swings for the high handicapper.

 

You fit a person to the average 5 swings where they are some what most consistent swing, this could be a lot bigger swing between the best shots of a high handicap and the average, think we agree on that. Now lets assume that this player makes the 1 or 2 really good swings in a round, now the shaft most likely is not going to preform the way it is expected to possibly producing a shot result that is not favorable, this player now thinks it is something they are doing wrong and create more problems in the swing.

--> The perfect example is some higher single digit players that think hooking is something they are doing in their swings when in reality the shaft tip is probably flipping the head over on there best swings and preforming well under normal swings.

 

It is always better to error on the side of the shaft preforming the best under the best swings and holding up just fine on less then good swings then have a shaft under preform for a player on their best swings. I would rather give a reword for a player making a great swing then give them a penalty in a bad shot result on a good swing.

 

I'll take myself as an example here because I have no natural talent whatsoever, but I work hard to drop my handicap and score. Last year, if you took my average swing or even best swing on five different days, the results would probably look nothing alike. Yes, you could fit someone to a custom shaft for this sort of swing, but the opportunity cost makes it not worth it. I'd love to see a labs experiment using a high handicap and a total beginner where they play several rounds before and after getting fit to see how much of a difference it actually makes.

 

(again, I'm talking beyond a basic length/flex fitting here, that part is pretty much required)

[dru_]

I would argue that it makes a good bit of difference.

 

When I first started back to playing, I pulled out my dated Ping Zing knockoffs that I got from Tallapoosa a few years prior. It had been close to 10 years, and though I was still 6'3", I had reduced fitness and increased weight. I didn't get fit/refit I just went back out. That first summer, I was thrilled with a round under 110, and often played to 125 or higher.

 

Near the end of the summer, I went for a fitting (and a new set of clubs).

 

I went with a GI iron set (Adams A30s) and in the testing ended up going to a slightly longer and softer shaft to make up for a lack of range in my shoulder, a lack of swing speed (I was in the mid 80's), and last but not least, an utter and complete lack of flexibility. With the new clubs in the bag, I went down to a place where I was shooting between 100 and 115 on a consistent basis.

 

Then again this year, I suspected that due to massive changes in my fitness ( I dropped 50+ lbs, and have been training for a marathon and using a bike and swim regimen as my cross training ) that the nature of my swing. Another fitting showed that the changes in body did impact the equipment. Clubs that were originally fit to me 2.5 years prior and worked well then didn't now. Changing a couple of shafts showed an almost immediate impact, and I am now looking the trade-offs between replacing the whole set versus replacing shafts (though the shafts have been cut down to standard lengths now). I am leaning towards shafts, because I do not think the club heads will make much difference, but shafts with less flex probably will.

 

At this point the only clubs I find issues with are my 4,5,6i as they remain inconsistent, and I am fairly certain that a percentage of the problem is that I am over flexing the shafts. The symptoms are this: consistent pace and contact, but the all flight can range anywhere from 15 yards right to the more common 30 yards left with a significant hook, and the odd dead straight cannon shot that is noticeably longer than it *should* be (IMO). These same symptoms afflicted my driver and 2,3h prior to migrating to the stiffer shafts, where today I am consistently within 5 yards left target (unless I muscle up and try to kill it because I*think* about trying to kill it, but that's a mental error, not equipment).

 

So, yes, properly fitted equipment *is* important to everyone IMO. Is a $100 2 hour fitting session a good value? maybe not, but a $20 session to make sure you are in the right shaft stiffness and length can and often will have an immediate impact on scoring.

[GolfSpy WD]

I would argue that it makes a good bit of difference.

 

When I first started back to playing, I pulled out my dated Ping Zing knockoffs that I got from Tallapoosa a few years prior. It had been close to 10 years, and though I was still 6'3", I had reduced fitness and increased weight. I didn't get fit/refit I just went back out. That first summer, I was thrilled with a round under 110, and often played to 125 or higher.

 

Near the end of the summer, I went for a fitting (and a new set of clubs).

 

I went with a GI iron set (Adams A30s) and in the testing ended up going to a slightly longer and softer shaft to make up for a lack of range in my shoulder, a lack of swing speed (I was in the mid 80's), and last but not least, an utter and complete lack of flexibility. With the new clubs in the bag, I went down to a place where I was shooting between 100 and 115 on a consistent basis.

 

Then again this year, I suspected that due to massive changes in my fitness ( I dropped 50+ lbs, and have been training for a marathon and using a bike and swim regimen as my cross training ) that the nature of my swing. Another fitting showed that the changes in body did impact the equipment. Clubs that were originally fit to me 2.5 years prior and worked well then didn't now. Changing a couple of shafts showed an almost immediate impact, and I am now looking the trade-offs between replacing the whole set versus replacing shafts (though the shafts have been cut down to standard lengths now). I am leaning towards shafts, because I do not think the club heads will make much difference, but shafts with less flex probably will.

 

At this point the only clubs I find issues with are my 4,5,6i as they remain inconsistent, and I am fairly certain that a percentage of the problem is that I am over flexing the shafts. The symptoms are this: consistent pace and contact, but the all flight can range anywhere from 15 yards right to the more common 30 yards left with a significant hook, and the odd dead straight cannon shot that is noticeably longer than it *should* be (IMO). These same symptoms afflicted my driver and 2,3h prior to migrating to the stiffer shafts, where today I am consistently within 5 yards left target (unless I muscle up and try to kill it because I*think* about trying to kill it, but that's a mental error, not equipment).

 

So, yes, properly fitted equipment *is* important to everyone IMO. Is a $100 2 hour fitting session a good value? maybe not, but a $20 session to make sure you are in the right shaft stiffness and length can and often will have an immediate impact on scoring.

 

$100 is pretty cheap for a good fitting . Around here a full fitting will cost $150 for 2 hours. That doesn't include the cost of the custom shafts, tour van heads, FLOing shafts, frequency matching clubs, etc...

 

My question for you would be how do you know the flex of your shaft has anything to do with the issues you are having and it's not something like flipping the club, hitting ball fat (not necessarily chunking it), and/or decelerating through impact? Getting fit for length is extremely important, but at most amateur swing speeds in the 80-95mph range, playing a stiff or regular flex club won't dramatically affect score, especially if you're playing off-the-shelf stiff, which is really just regular most of the time.

[dru_]

$100 is pretty cheap for a good fitting . Around here a full fitting will cost $150 for 2 hours. That doesn't include the cost of the custom shafts, tour van heads, FLOing shafts, frequency matching clubs, etc...

 

My question for you would be how do you know the flex of your shaft has anything to do with the issues you are having and it's not something like flipping the club, hitting ball fat (not necessarily chunking it), and/or decelerating through impact? Getting fit for length is extremely important, but at most amateur swing speeds in the 80-95mph range, playing a stiff or regular flex club won't dramatically affect score, especially if you're playing off-the-shelf stiff, which is really just regular most of the time.

 

I don't 'know', I suspect though. FWIW, at the last fitting, I was averaging 108mph, with a high of 114 and a low of 92 with my full swings and I believe that has gone down just a tiny bit since then with a very minor adjustment to my grip. I am not playing off the shelf anymore, though I once was. I do think that much of my score improvements in the last 24 months are physical, not equipment, but at the same time, the physical changes also required equipment adjustments to cope. 85mph - to 105mph is a pretty big change over a 3 year period, and IMO, fitted versus off the shelf does make a noticeable impact on score.

 

That said, there isn't much market to 'fit' golfers with a

[dru_]

I think what I am failing to communicate well is that while yes I do think that a nominal fitting has value right away, I do not know that a full fitting has nearly the value until the player reaches a point where they are willing to make both the money and time investment into becoming a golfer, not just someone that plays golf. Someone that plays golf, IMO, is far more prone to wholesale replacement of equipment on a more frequent basis, but they spend less at each replacement ( in some cases ).

 

All of that said, when I look at myself, I see the guy that plays golf when I could, but was horribly out of shape

 

1. 38 years old, 6'3" 255lbs with a poorly healed partially torn rotator cuff in my right shoulder, two bad knees, and a seriously messed up hip, that was huffing and puffing at the end of 18 holes using a golf cart. Happy with anything in the 110's.

 

2. 40 years old, 6'3" 200lbs with shoulder, knees and hip all in much better condition through therapy and fitness, that can walk 18 carrying the bag and then throw on running shoes and knock out a 6 mile run in a bit under an hour. Now anything over a 100 is a disappointment, the 90's are the norm, and the high 80's are becoming a common occurrence.

 

I firmly believe that the overall fitness has more to do with the improvements than the equipment. What I was trying to articulate (and failing I think) is that the appropriate equipment for golfer #1 is not the appropriate equipment for golfer #2. While golfer #2's equipment is probably usable by #1, the reverse the equipment becomes a liability as the improve flexibility and quickness through the knees, hips and rotation from the shoulders completely change the dynamics of the equipment.

[JMiller]

$100 is pretty cheap for a good fitting . Around here a full fitting will cost $150 for 2 hours. That doesn't include the cost of the custom shafts, tour van heads, FLOing shafts, frequency matching clubs, etc...

 

My question for you would be how do you know the flex of your shaft has anything to do with the issues you are having and it's not something like flipping the club, hitting ball fat (not necessarily chunking it), and/or decelerating through impact? Getting fit for length is extremely important, but at most amateur swing speeds in the 80-95mph range, playing a stiff or regular flex club won't dramatically affect score, especially if you're playing off-the-shelf stiff, which is really just regular most of the time.

 

$100 is an hour fitting, I would have to assume that if it ran 2 hours it would probably be slightly more like $150 bucks on top of the equipment you buy or don't buy. We normally start with 5 minutes of hitting balls to get lose, then 10 minutes of me talking about what I am looking for, then 15 minutes of trying on thing, break and talk for 15 minutes, try something else if it didn't work the first time for 15 minutes break for 15 minutes talking with feedback. just keep repeating this process until we find something that works perfectly for my feel and the actual results. I mean the time frame is not set in stone at all, one shaft I might make 5 swings and go "god this thing sucks it is too harsh in transition". Then move on to the next thing.

 

We gotten WAY off topic at this point, but I don't think personally that the sentence "I'm not good enough to get fit" is the truth. I find that to more often then not be a myth. There is the rare case that someone just needs a lesson before doing anything I agree with that...

 

 

moving right along on the myth thing... I think someone else said it already a mid handicapper going "I'm not good enough to play blades". Very big Myth I would say Adams MB2 have a large offset and are pretty forgiving for a blade a good transition blade so to speak for someone that is nervous about trying them. The Adams MB2 actually has more offset then my AP2 CBs did so if that tells you anything about that set?

[JMiller]

Well, seeing that the everage golfer's score hasn't improved at all over the past 25 years, and we have all of this great technology, well, it'd be nice if a few of these chops tried a different approach....

 

Or no, let's do what an insane person does: let's do the same thing, the same way, yet somehow expect the results to be different this time...Yea, but I can hit the ball 280 & curve it at will...Just don't ask me to play with anyone...

 

Fairways & Greens 4ever....

lol that is pretty good, to break a pattern you have to take a new approach.