Match play rules infraction?

[DaveP043]

To be very pernickety I'd suggest that anything lying parallel to the line of play must indicate the line of play. It cannot do otherwise.  It keeps coming back round to whether the player put it there deliberately.   Doing it as a regular feature of his putting process is something of a hint that he did but if he said it was done accidentally,  I'd accept that but expect his acceptance in return  that if  he had the same accident again I would penalise him.

I think the way I'd handle this is to tell him that "someone" might think he's using his putter to align his ball, and obviously he must know you can't touch the green to do that.  To avoid the appearance of breaking the rule, it might be a good idea if he didn't lay the putter down there, or at least to make sure its not aligned along the target line.

[Colin L]

I think the way I'd handle this is to tell him that "someone" might think he's using his putter to align his ball, and obviously he must know you can't touch the green to do that.  To avoid the appearance of breaking the rule, it might be a good idea if he didn't lay the putter down there, or at least to make sure its not aligned along the target line.

 

That would be a suitably  tactful way of dealing with it as a fellow player.  I was thinking of it in a refereeing context where the "someone" would be me ..... the next time

[Kor.A.Door]

the only question is whether the putt was actually indicating where the ball was going to travel. Since the putt was in his hand, and not on the line of his putt. There shouldn't be a question. If he left the putter laying there then yes.

 

did he use the line on the ball to line up that line with the edge of the putterhead or part of the shaft? In which case he was usin the putter to side him in lining up the putt.

 

I've seen pros line up the ball, leave the mark down, stand over the ball with the putter like they are going to putt it to make sure their line on the ball is pointing in the direction they want, then they reposition the ball, and remove the mark.

[Pickles]

Never thought of that. Maybe he was lining the ball up off of the line his putter was creating.

[Colin L]

the only question is whether the putt was actually indicating where the ball was going to travel. Since the putt was in his hand, and not on the line of his putt. There shouldn't be a question. If he left the putter laying there then yes.

 

did he use the line on the ball to line up that line with the edge of the putterhead or part of the shaft? In which case he was usin the putter to side him in lining up the putt.

 

I've seen pros line up the ball, leave the mark down, stand over the ball with the putter like they are going to putt it to make sure their line on the ball is pointing in the direction they want, then they reposition the ball, and remove the mark.

Sorry, I don't follow your first sentence.  It makes no difference whther his putter was in his hand and not laid on the green.   Rule 8-2b is clear:  if you touch the putting green anywhere with the intention of indicating your line of putt, you are in breach of the rule.  

 

The questions to ask are:

 

DId his putter indicate the line of putt?

Did he touch  any part of the putting green with it?

Was his intention to indicate the line of putt?

 

If yes to all of these, then he breached 8-2b.  If no to any one of them, then he didn't.

[RoverRick]

So not ON the intended line but showing the potential line.

 

Actually, he is showing a potential line PARALLEL to the line of the putt. Maybe, or he is absentmindedly resting his putter on the ground while he is carefully aligning his aim line on the ball. Either way, I see no foul.

[RoverRick]

Sorry, I don't follow your first sentence.  It makes no difference whther his putter was in his hand and not laid on the green.   Rule 8-2b is clear:  if you touch the putting green anywhere with the intention of indicating your line of putt, you are in breach of the rule.  

 

The questions to ask are:

 

DId his putter indicate the line of putt?

Did he touch  any part of the putting green with it?

Was his intention to indicate the line of putt?

 

If yes to all of these, then he breached 8-2b.  If no to any one of them, then he didn't.

 

No the main question here is What is the line of the putt?

 

As stated eariler: The “line of putt” is defined in the Rules as “the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green” including “a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line”.

 

This says after the a stroke, so what ever happens behind the ball, or behind the hole or parallel to the line of the putt is superfluous. The gray area is what is a reasonable distance from the line.

 

We see players all the time place their putter heads next to their mark and use that to align the line on the ball parallel to the line. This is right next to the ball, 0.84 inches from the center of the ball. Obviously, since no one is crying foul on this, a reasonable distance, at least at the start of the putt, is less than an inch.

[Colin L]

No the main question here is What is the line of the putt?

 

As stated eariler: The “line of putt” is defined in the Rules as “the line that the player wishes his ball to take after a stroke on the putting green” including “a reasonable distance on either side of the intended line”.

 

This says after the a stroke, so what ever happens behind the ball, or behind the hole or parallel to the line of the putt is superfluous. The gray area is what is a reasonable distance from the line.

 

We see players all the time place their putter heads next to their mark and use that to align the line on the ball parallel to the line. This is right next to the ball, 0.84 inches from the center of the ball. Obviously, since no one is crying foul on this, a reasonable distance, at least at the start of the putt, is less than an inch.

Have you actually read Rule 8-2b?

[RoverRick]

Have you actually read Rule 8-2b?

 

Yes.

 

8-2b. On the Putting Green

 

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the line of putt may be indicated before, but not during, the stroke by the player, his partner or either of their caddies; in doing so the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere for the purpose of indicating a line of putt.

 

What's the problem?

 

He was not in the process of determining the line of the putt. He had already done this and was replacing his ball on the green and lining it up to his line or the hole. He then laid his putter on the green that may have intentionally been parallel with the line. Even if he did so intentionally, he made no foul because it was not on the line of the putt.

 

Rule 20-3 covers replacement of the ball, but I have seen nothing in the rules, and just reread them all, that covers how one must replace the ball. Only that it must be in the spot it was picked up from.

 

If you can not touch the green anywhere then everyone will have committed an infraction at some point. You can only not touch the line of the putt.

 

 

 

Full disclosure here: I do not use a line on the ball and do not align any marks with the hole.

[Colin L]

Yes.

 

8-2b. On the Putting Green

 

When the player's ball is on the putting green, the line of putt may be indicated before, but not during, the stroke by the player, his partner or either of their caddies; in doing so the putting green must not be touched. A mark must not be placed anywhere for the purpose of indicating a line of putt.

 

What's the problem?

 

He was not in the process of determining the line of the putt. He had already done this and was replacing his ball on the green and lining it up to his line or the hole. He then laid his putter on the green that may have intentionally been parallel with the line. Even if he did so intentionally, he made no foul because it was not on the line of the putt.

 

Rule 20-3 covers replacement of the ball, but I have seen nothing in the rules, and just reread them all, that covers how one must replace the ball. Only that it must be in the spot it was picked up from.

 

If you can not touch the green anywhere then everyone will have committed an infraction at some point. You can only not touch the line of the putt.

 

 

 

Full disclosure here: I do not use a line on the ball and do not align any marks with the hole.

 

Rule 16-1a deals with not touching the line of putt.  Rule 8-2b deals with indicating the line of putt and the very part which you highlight tells you that you are not allowed to touch the putting green  in the process of indicating the line of putt.  Clearly the term putting green refers to the entire putting surface.  For example, your caddie cannot indicate your line of putt by touching the putting green  on the other side of the hole with the flagstick.   

 

Whether the player has finished "determining" his line of putt or not is irrelevant.  If he he laid his putter down parallel with his line of putt  with the intention of indcating his line of putt at any time before making his stroke, he would be breaching 8-2b.   If this rule were to mean only that you cannot touch the line of putt it would say say so, but it doesn't.  If it  meant that, it would be redundant as it woud duplicating 16-1a.

 

Changes

From next January, the rule will change in that you or your caddie will be allowed to touch the putting green with your hand, your foot or anything you are holding to point out your line of play.  It does not change with regard to putting a club or anything down on the green.  The wording is clearer:

 

The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.

[Rule 10.2b(2)]

 

You will be allowed to touch your line of play on the putting green.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

Rule 16-1a deals with not touching the line of putt. Rule 8-2b deals with indicating the line of putt and the very part which you highlight tells you that you are not allowed to touch the putting green in the process of indicating the line of putt. Clearly the term putting green refers to the entire putting surface. For example, your caddie cannot indicate your line of putt by touching the putting green on the other side of the hole with the flagstick.

 

Whether the player has finished "determining" his line of putt or not is irrelevant. If he he laid his putter down parallel with his line of putt with the intention of indcating his line of putt at any time before making his stroke, he would be breaching 8-2b. If this rule were to mean only that you cannot touch the line of putt it would say say so, but it doesn't. If it meant that, it would be redundant as it woud duplicating 16-1a.

 

Changes

From next January, the rule will change in that you or your caddie will be allowed to touch the putting green with your hand, your foot or anything you are holding to point out your line of play. It does not change with regard to putting a club or anything down on the green. The wording is clearer:

 

 

 

The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.

[Rule 10.2b(2)]

 

You will be allowed to touch your line of play on the putting green.

As of right now since the OP didn't ask the guy his intent we don't know if he was using it to align the putt. We just know he payed it down while aligning his ball. Since we dont have known intent I don't see any infraction. The OP now as well as anyone who reads should have a good understanding of the situation and unless OP plays with/against this person again and asks next time he does it we do t know intent.

[Colin L]

The question of intent has been made clear throughout this thread.  The reason for my last post was to explain that RoverRick  had misunderstood Rule 8-2b when he said  "Even if he did so intentionally, he made no foul because it was not on the line of the putt."

[Kor.A.Door]

Sorry, I don't follow your first sentence. It makes no difference whther his putter was in his hand and not laid on the green. Rule 8-2b is clear: if you touch the putting green anywhere with the intention of indicating your line of putt, you are in breach of the rule.

 

The questions to ask are:

 

DId his putter indicate the line of putt?

Did he touch any part of the putting green with it?

Was his intention to indicate the line of putt?

 

If yes to all of these, then he breached 8-2b. If no to any one of them, then he didn't.

That should be putter. Did the putter indicate the line of the putt

[Kor.A.Door]

A good example to me would be watching Adam Scott read the putt, he walks up and down on both sides of his intended line, probably within a foot of his intended line, and he has never once been called out for touching his intended line, or trying to indicate his line of putt. A guy laying his putter down next to him, and not touching his intended line, shouldn't even be considered, because it all comes down to what his intent was, it seems in the original post here, he was placing the ball to line up his putt. His intent was lining up the putt. If he adjusted the putter a couple times to help him line up the ball, then you could say he intended to use the putter to help, but simply laying the putter down doesn't prove intent.

[RoverRick]

Rule 16-1a deals with not touching the line of putt.  Rule 8-2b deals with indicating the line of putt and the very part which you highlight tells you that you are not allowed to touch the putting green  in the process of indicating the line of putt.  Clearly the term putting green refers to the entire putting surface.  For example, your caddie cannot indicate your line of putt by touching the putting green  on the other side of the hole with the flagstick.   

 

Whether the player has finished "determining" his line of putt or not is irrelevant.  If he he laid his putter down parallel with his line of putt  with the intention of indcating his line of putt at any time before making his stroke, he would be breaching 8-2b.   If this rule were to mean only that you cannot touch the line of putt it would say say so, but it doesn't.  If it  meant that, it would be redundant as it woud duplicating 16-1a.

 

Changes

From next January, the rule will change in that you or your caddie will be allowed to touch the putting green with your hand, your foot or anything you are holding to point out your line of play.  It does not change with regard to putting a club or anything down on the green.  The wording is clearer:

 

The player or caddie must not set an object down anywhere on on or off the putting green to show the line of play. This is not allowed even if that object is removed before the stroke is made.

[Rule 10.2b(2)]

 

You will be allowed to touch your line of play on the putting green.

 

 

So a person who grounds their putter behind the ball and adjusts it so that he is lined up down the line of the putt is guilty of an infraction because he is touching the green and indicating the line of the putt?

[Colin L]

So a person who grounds their putter behind the ball and adjusts it so that he is lined up down the line of the putt is guilty of an infraction because he is touching the green and indicating the line of the putt?

 

No.  He is addressing his ball not indicating his line of putt.

[Kor.A.Door]

I think the difficult part of this scenario is whether or not the guy was trying to show his intended line. Since it's anout intent, it impossible to call a penalty on him

[NiftyNiblick]

OK, after reading a few of these posts, one thing is very clear: 

 

None of you want to play with anyone from my old league, The Dukes of Decrepitude.

 

I remember one of the boys drawing a chalk line on the green before putting.

 

Not once did I ever hear Alistair Cooke say that there's no drawing chalk lines.

 

And if you can chalk your cue, why can't you chalk your putt?

[Pickles]

Good idea. I'm going to snap a chalk line the next time I play. Just not on my intended line of course.

[Colin L]

With the state my putting is in at the moment, I could draw a line all the way to the hole and still miss.

[Pickles]

This is basically the answer.

 

Therefore, the answer to your question will depend on the player's intentions, but if he or she placed the putter for the purpose of indicating a line of putt, the player would be in breach of Rule 8-2b and would lose the hole.

[Colin L]

This is basically the answer.

 

Therefore, the answer to your question will depend on the player's intentions, but if he or she placed the putter for the purpose of indicating a line of putt, the player would be in breach of Rule 8-2b and would lose the hole.

 

Glad you got confirmation.  As I said earlier, the questions to ask are:

 

DId his putter indicate the line of putt?

Did he touch  any part of the putting green with it?

Was his intention to indicate the line of putt?

 

If yes to all of these, then he breached 8-2b.  If no to any one of them, then he didn't.

[DaveP043]

 

Glad you got confirmation.  As I said earlier, the questions to ask are:

 

DId his putter indicate the line of putt?

Did he touch  any part of the putting green with it?

Was his intention to indicate the line of putt?

 

If yes to all of these, then he breached 8-2b.  If no to any one of them, then he didn't.

 

I would question whether the first question really matters.  If he intends for the putter to indicate the line, and it touches the green, I'm not sure it should matter if he was successful in indicating the line.

[Colin L]

I ask that question first because if his putter is obviously not indicating the line putt, there's no need to go any further.  If it looks possible that it could be and it was touching the green, only then would I enquire about intent.  Just the sequence I would use and by no means the only way of approaching such an issue.

[NiftyNiblick]

With the state my putting is in at the moment, I could draw a line all the way to the hole and still miss.

There are people who couldn't?