Cheating

[Sean!]

I play with a fairly large group of guys, 15-20. Most are fantastic. There is one that has been known for "Sandbagging" (Cheating) and I have personally caught him actually cheating in the past. This normally involves him finding his ball, when there is no way that it could be in that location or actually be found. Today was one of those days. Twice it happened. The first I did not catch, but another in our group did. The second I watched. He walked towards the edge of the green in the rough before a ledge leading to water,  his hand went in his pocket  he bent down to "lay his clubs down" then hit his shot. Later in the round I brought this up and was told his ball was in a hole. Could this happen? Yes and it has to me but I announce that my ball is in a hole and ask what I should do? Or just say hey I have to move my ball because it is in this hole. 

What should I/we do? We can't really kick him out of the group. I do my best to not play with him, but it frustrating when we only play a $10 skins and greenie game. I have gone as far as to keep score when in a group with him because if he keeps score he will not say what he got on that hole. I make sure every knows that I got my bogie etc when I keep score just so there are no issues.  

 

 

[Middler]

I play golf for enjoyment above all else, it’s not enjoyable if someone in my foursome is actively cheating. In the league I play in, if someone cheats the other three of us note it. If it happens again, we ALL protest out loud directly - has never failed to work. I’d think your wayward friend would get the message and quit cheating or straighten up soon enough. If he persists, you and ALL the others accept it or you don’t play with him.

[CarlH]

Why can't you kick him out of the group?  If you're playing for $$, be it 25 cents or 200 dollars, he's stealing from everyone.  If you don't confront him, he isn't going to stop.   Every club has their cheaters and every member knows who they are.  Call them out!

 

[Sean!]

He has been confronted and he was good for awhile. I honestly think I am the only one that is extremely bothered by this and the others except/expect it. It is not my group to kick him out of and the "leader" is his friend. I am just frustrated by the lack of integrity. 

[Middler]

9 hours ago, Sean! said:

He has been confronted and he was good for awhile. I honestly think I am the only one that is extremely bothered by this and the others except/expect it. It is not my group to kick him out of and the "leader" is his friend. I am just frustrated by the lack of integrity. 

What does the leader say about the cheating? If everyone else accepts it, not much you can do other than refuse to play for money with the cheater. I’ve never been in a league or golf group where most people would accept cheating, just the opposite.

[DaveP043]

A couple of things:

Sandbagging is generally the guy who INCREASES his score to keep his handicap high, not the guy who cheats to get a lower score.

I play with a group of guys, and we always keep two "official" cards in each group, just to double check that we're getting the right scores all the time.  That approach would address this guy's preference to avoid reporting his score to the other players.

Last, I agree with the others, if you don't make a point of "catching" him, he won't change.  Heck, I'd consider saying "I'm not in the cash game today, too much cheating going on."  If the guy has been seen by a number of other players, you should have plenty of back-up.

[Tom the Golf Nut]

I played in a league that had a cheater. Hits a ball clearly OB and said it was on the edge of the fairway. Then he couldn't find it, then drops a ball and said it would have landed here and proceeded to play the hole without a penalty. We confronted him on the spot, then again on the green when we asked for his score (Which was wrong), brought it to the golf league committee for a ruling. He was then brought before the committee and his cheating was addressed and the score card changed and loss of match. He chose to cheat several more times and was not allowed back in the league the following season. The sad part is we did have liberal rules. Club length anywhere, Putts were a give me within the leather and he still chose to cheat. He would even cheat on the green, putt was inside the leather but chose to putt and missed the putt, then said it was in the leather anyway the stroke didn't count. We had a rule for that too. If you attempt the putt it counts as a stroke. It even got to the point that when I was scheduled to play him I didn't show up. I rather forfeit the match than be miserable and aggravated on the course. He was the guy that would talk in your back swing but heaven forbit someone talked during his.  That was a free mulligan for him. But all is good he is gone from the league now! 

Hopefully your league has a rules committee and you can put the enforcement on them. If you don't then maybe put one in place for next season.

I do like the keeping two cards idea  DaveP043 recommended. You would still have to bring up the controversy to the committee. 

[Kanoito]

I guess it all comes down to "the leader". If he and all other playes accept it, there is nothing much you can do and I would start questioning the integrity of other players as well.

But if they are all on your side, I don't see the problem with kicking him out.

For me it would be a pretty easy choice: if he doesn't go, I'll go. I have no problems playing alone, with fewer people or even find another course/another league.

[xOldBenKenobiX]

13 hours ago, Sean! said:

I play with a fairly large group of guys, 15-20. Most are fantastic. There is one that has been known for "Sandbagging" (Cheating) and I have personally caught him actually cheating in the past. This normally involves him finding his ball, when there is no way that it could be in that location or actually be found. Today was one of those days. Twice it happened. The first I did not catch, but another in our group did. The second I watched. He walked towards the edge of the green in the rough before a ledge leading to water,  his hand went in his pocket  he bent down to "lay his clubs down" then hit his shot. Later in the round I brought this up and was told his ball was in a hole. Could this happen? Yes and it has to me but I announce that my ball is in a hole and ask what I should do? Or just say hey I have to move my ball because it is in this hole. 

What should I/we do? We can't really kick him out of the group. I do my best to not play with him, but it frustrating when we only play a $10 skins and greenie game. I have gone as far as to keep score when in a group with him because if he keeps score he will not say what he got on that hole. I make sure every knows that I got my bogie etc when I keep score just so there are no issues.  

 

 

My work sponsor a league for it employees every year, they pay half of the league dues for all of the players, the CFO throws in a couple prizes such a a new putter to the closes to the hole in any pair 3s that season, and a new drive for the most birdies for the handicap that season. 

We don't know if we are having a league this year due to the Covid.

This is my 4th year with my company and I have played in the league for the first 3, we had a guy who was cheating like crazy, everyone knew about it, the league leader always gave him a break because he was new to golf. I didn't play much with him in the first year, but the last two seasons I got plenty rounds with him, he is the type that only count his good shots so if it took 4 shots to get out of a bunker he only counted one, or if he had a 50 ft putt he would take off and grab the pass as it stopped short or rolled past the hole, every time we played together I started keeping score, so when gathering the scores from the players and he would shout that he had a par, I would bring it back, dude how do you have a par if it took 3 shots to get into the green-side bunker and another 3 to get our of it? and you 3 putted too.

I would make sure to explain his score shot by shot, it sucked because I had to keep an eye on his game at the same time as trying to play, lucky for us he left the company last year, so no more extra watching now.

Unfortunately to root out cheating, you need to call them out, and make sure that they understand you don't care if they do not like you for it.

[Sean!]

So to clarify there are three separate situations: 1: Sand bagging aka cheating is not in play here that was in the past. 2&3 happened yesterday. 

This is not a league just a large group that plays $10 a man skins and greenies on the weekend and goes on an annual trip. Good thing is that he is not going on the trip this year. 

I did confront him yesterday. Others do know and he was caught on our annual golf trip, he left in the middle of the night and went home. A few months go by and he is back playing and we then kept a second score card and all was good for awhile, best I can figure. Will he change???? I doubt it. I love the group but I guess my best bet is to remove myself from the money part of the game and never play with him again. 

I take golf seriously, i mean as much as I can. It wears me out figuring out what I am doing let alone having to worry about what he is doing and I feel it effects my game and mostly the enjoyment I get out of it. This is why I play to beat myself and try to beat my best.

This is a very difficult situation in a sport that is 100% based on integrity.

[GolfSpy_SHARK]

16 hours ago, Sean! said:

I play with a fairly large group of guys, 15-20. Most are fantastic. There is one that has been known for "Sandbagging" (Cheating) and I have personally caught him actually cheating in the past. This normally involves him finding his ball, when there is no way that it could be in that location or actually be found. Today was one of those days. Twice it happened. The first I did not catch, but another in our group did. The second I watched. He walked towards the edge of the green in the rough before a ledge leading to water,  his hand went in his pocket  he bent down to "lay his clubs down" then hit his shot. Later in the round I brought this up and was told his ball was in a hole. Could this happen? Yes and it has to me but I announce that my ball is in a hole and ask what I should do? Or just say hey I have to move my ball because it is in this hole. 

What should I/we do? We can't really kick him out of the group. I do my best to not play with him, but it frustrating when we only play a $10 skins and greenie game. I have gone as far as to keep score when in a group with him because if he keeps score he will not say what he got on that hole. I make sure every knows that I got my bogie etc when I keep score just so there are no issues.  

 

 

Its tough when money is involved. If no MOOLA was involved hes only screwing himself. I would engage him with everyone involved because if you're screwing yourself thats one thing but now you're actively taking folks money through your cheating.

Other than engaging him I dont have much advice so good luck and keep us posted!

[Middler]

21 hours ago, Sean! said:

I did confront him yesterday. Others do know and he was caught on our annual golf trip, he left in the middle of the night and went home. A few months go by and he is back playing and we then kept a second score card and all was good for awhile, best I can figure. Will he change???? I doubt it. I love the group but I guess my best bet is to remove myself from the money part of the game and never play with him again. 

You’ve mostly avoided saying what all the others or the “leader” think. Of course you can “kick him out” if that’s what most people want, it would be easy if you’re united. The cheater either stops cheating, or he’s no longer welcome. Again, every time I’ve been in a group with someone cheating, usually the other two are happy to support me. I have no qualms about being the one to speak up, if it’s others I don’t know well I’ll usually pull them aside and say ‘next time he cheats I’m going to confront him, are you on board?’ At the very least I’d refuse to play him for money and say why, I’d expect others will jump on board.

[Sean!]

Honestly I am not sure what he thinks as he rarely plays with the cheater. I would imagine most either do not know or just turn a blind eye. I am hoping it is the former and not the later. 

 

[Guest Delete]

14 hours ago, Sean! said:

So to clarify there are three separate situations: 1: Sand bagging aka cheating is not in play here that was in the past. 2&3 happened yesterday. 

This is not a league just a large group that plays $10 a man skins and greenies on the weekend and goes on an annual trip. Good thing is that he is not going on the trip this year. 

I did confront him yesterday. Others do know and he was caught on our annual golf trip, he left in the middle of the night and went home. A few months go by and he is back playing and we then kept a second score card and all was good for awhile, best I can figure. Will he change???? I doubt it. I love the group but I guess my best bet is to remove myself from the money part of the game and never play with him again. 

I take golf seriously, i mean as much as I can. It wears me out figuring out what I am doing let alone having to worry about what he is doing and I feel it effects my game and mostly the enjoyment I get out of it. This is why I play to beat myself and try to beat my best.

This is a very difficult situation in a sport that is 100% based on integrity.

You are spot on in your view on this. You have to pick a side. By that I mean, either ignore his cheating or call him on it. 

I have a friend who is not a great golfer but he likes keeping score. He has a limited knowledge of the rules of golf so, he is all over the place when counting penalty strokes. I play with him even though his golf etiquette is poor and he is loose with the rules. He needs all the help he can get and I have to let go of being a stickler when I play with him. 

So, if you choose to call this guy out on cheating then you have to figure out if it is going to ruin your golf enjoyment or enhance it. I actually enjoy calling people on their s***. It gets my blood flowing and juices me up. I strongly push my playing partners to fix their divots, rake the bunkers, and play when it is their turn. I'm not afraid of offending anyone. 

In your case, it seems sad that others are not jumping on him too. From the cheater's perspective, I don't really think he is good enough to beat anyone straight up. I am guessing people recognize his lack of ability to play golf well and just choose to ignore his cheating. How often does his cheating actually cause him to win anything? Maybe never?

It could be an opportunity to either purposely be paired up with him or just avoid the league all together. 

I look at how people play golf says a lot about their character. This cheater is cheating himself. And, if he is taking other people's money then he is cheating them too. 

[Jtom2012]

If money or something else of importance is at stake than the cheater has to be called out.

Sent from my moto g(7) power using MyGolfSpy mobile app

[Sean!]

7 hours ago, TimoTe said:

In your case, it seems sad that others are not jumping on him too. From the cheater's perspective, I don't really think he is good enough to beat anyone straight up. I am guessing people recognize his lack of ability to play golf well and just choose to ignore his cheating. How often does his cheating actually cause him to win anything? Maybe never?

It could be an opportunity to either purposely be paired up with him or just avoid the league all together. 

I look at how people play golf says a lot about their character. This cheater is cheating himself. And, if he is taking other people's money then he is cheating them too. 

The problem is he is good. Would these inflate his scores yes, but it would not make a difference. 

[CarlH]

One other comment....never do business with him.  Anyone that would cheat in golf to win a few bucks from friends, will cheat people in his business dealings, as well.  

[Guest Delete]

1 hour ago, Sean! said:

The problem is he is good. Would these inflate his scores yes, but it would not make a difference. 

Then I would get great joy from humiliating him when I catch him cheating. 

I was a gold miner for a stretch. There was a guy claim jumping and I made it a point to make him very uncomfortable until he joined our club. He respected me in the end for upholding to the code of conduct.