The Stack System Review and Progress Thread

[Feynman22]

12 hours ago, mexgolf said:

Anyone have any thoughts on why air swings with a driver are much faster than normal swings with a ball? Air is 119-120 vs. 109-110 with a ball.

I’ve been doing the Stack now consistently for a few months and have definitely seen gains. They just don’t seem to transfer to swings WITH a ball.

Both swings are with “full intent.”

There’s just something about having the ball in front of me that significantly slows me down.

I'm the opposite actually. I initially struggled to swing anywhere near as fast without a ball. I think it's due to the idea of braking - hitting a ball slows the club down.

Try to swing flat out with the driver at the range using the same swing/feels you have with the stack. For example, the stack was estimating 114 driver speed for me and I maxed out at 116 at the range last night. It was cold and I didn't feel like I was going absolute max effort ( this was also post a stack training session earlier in the day. Managed 116 twice and 115 a few times so I find it pretty accurate so far. For speed training it really doesn't matter what the strike is like initially.

Do you have any technical things that might slow you down? Such as fighting a strong shape etc. Your body might be taking over and trying to still hit the ball well for example.

[WaffleHouseTour]

I typed a day too early - got my first request for a Max Intent today. 

Also failed my first "confirm warm up"...  last session I got off the elliptical, stretched, and had no problem hitting the "confirm" speed.  Well, today they upped that "confirm" speed and after I got off the elliptical and stretched I didn't even get close.  So I did Sasho's dynamic warm up and bang, no problem.  I think that has more to do with opening hips and range of motion than just being warm and having the blood pumping.  So note to self for the future.   And interesting that the "confirm" speed increased... anxious to see what it will be 48 hours from now. 

I gotta say, this AI algorithm and how it changes things around each time is fascinating.  Really enjoying it and excited to see where it takes me.  Maybe because I've seen a small bump each day, and eventually I'll get frustrated when I hit a plateau - but for now it's encouraging.  

[Feynman22]

 

On 3/8/2023 at 1:30 PM, Feynman22 said:

Update after the latest session. I've maxed out at 115 before with driver on Trackman so I'm interested to see what this means when visiting the range later. I haven't hit any balls for a few weeks now.

Also as mentioned, I struggled initially swinging flat out without a ball, so the gains are definitely a bit exaggerated. Longterm would love to get to 120+ to allow a gaming speed of 115ish. That would be a completely different game to when I was around 100-105ish in rounds.

Got on a GC quad tonight. Once warm, had lots of swings at 114 maxing out at 116. The Stack eSpeed is absolutely bang on (not sure why I'm surprised as Sasho has designed it).

Looking forward to another couple of weeks progress. 120 is an achievable goal by the summer I think - which is a crazy thing to say considering that after not playing any golf for 2 years I started out around 100mph back in November! 

[mexgolf]

9 hours ago, edingc said:

It's always easier to swing faster when there's no concept of direction. 

My suggestion would be to dedicate 10-15 balls at the range swinging as fast as you can without worrying about where the ball goes. Eventually you will start to find the combination of speed/direction.

I've been swing speed training for almost four years now and I still do not have a 1:1 no ball/with ball swing speed ratio. But I'm a lot closer than I used to be.

@edingc Thanks. Definitely need to do more speed work with the ball on the range.

Based on your comment and my own experience, my inclination is to say that anyone that has a slower swing w/o a ball and/or the same one with or without a ball is not maxing out their speed w/o a ball.

I would think there are some strong correlations here with a baseball swing. I can't imagine that any pro player can't swing the bat faster w/o a ball vs. trying to hit a pitch or off a tee.

[MrKSTOKES]

20 hours ago, edingc said:

It's always easier to swing faster when there's no concept of direction. 

My suggestion would be to dedicate 10-15 balls at the range swinging as fast as you can without worrying about where the ball goes. Eventually you will start to find the combination of speed/direction.

I've been swing speed training for almost four years now and I still do not have a 1:1 no ball/with ball swing speed ratio. But I'm a lot closer than I used to be.

Couldn't agree more!

I believe the main reason my stack suggested speed has tracked so accurately to speeds I've achieved with a ball is solely down to hitting 30-40 balls a week after a stack session just flat out, as if I was in a long drive competition. No concern on strike or direction, just priming the brain to swing at higher speed with a ball which leads to a faster "gamer" swing on the course

[RD McAvoy]

On 1/30/2023 at 9:05 PM, Golfing Rabbit said:

Hi, my husband did a session on my profile by mistake, is there a way to remove that? Thanks

Divorce.

 

Just kidding. Message Sasho from within the app and he can fix it for you.

[RD McAvoy]

On 3/8/2023 at 3:35 PM, MIHIGO26 said:

 

 I'm fairly young and healthy and active so not too concerned about injuries, if I felt something was off that way I'd stop.  I'm not really feeling 'it' the day after the swings like I would a gym session. I'm giving the swings everything I can with each and every one and haven't lost balance once.

I perhaps need to read more into swing intensity or ask my coach about it, as I've never realised it was even a thing to be honest.

Friendly pointer: ALWAYS be aware that you can injure a shoulder at anytime or age. It's vital to warm up the shoulders properly before speed training as they are pretty fine fibers. They can and do tear even with mild use. I've had three rotator (2 on Rht, 1 on Lft) / and bicep repairs on both to prove my point. Interestingly the shoulders can actually have LESS pain during activity v resting. You'll know if a shoulder is injured if it is painful during sleep or first thing in the morning. I use Therabands regularly to keep my shoulders strong and safe. Ice is your friend. All the best.

[RD McAvoy]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:26 AM, Getoffmylawn said:

AI AI AI.

SuperSpeed works, some, but it's basically just 3 different sticks and a one-size fits all training program.  The Stack System is 30 different weight combination possibilities, prescribed by AI that tailors and adapts the training to the individual user...optimized training vs one-size-fits-all.  

 

It's really not a competition, the only real knock against the Stack is a higher price point and the fact that you have to have a radar for it to work.  I'd argue you need a radar for SuperSpeed too, but it's not technically a requirement.

One more reminder for the masses, I spent a little more time on this subject in a separate thread:

 

A user of any speed training protocol MUST have feedback else how would one quantify if their training is effective and producing the desired results? How would one be efficient with their training? Gotta have a way to measure speed and there's no way around it. 

[RD McAvoy]

On 3/3/2023 at 2:42 AM, GolfSpy_APH said:

Love to see how this thread as progressed and evolved. I would love to see a full test of all the swing speed systems head to head and see where some thrive for certain golfers or even swing speeds. 

For those who went with stack vs others, what was the tipping point for you?

The Stack App. A person training MUST have a way to quantify their results. Period. I've trained for speed in the past using static devices with varying workout protocols. I really prefer the variety of The Stack protocols as it guides you along. Plain and simple it's the best out there.

[RD McAvoy]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:39 AM, Getoffmylawn said:

We’re going to have to agree to disagree here apparently.  The world’s foremost golf biomechanics expert, literally nicknamed “the savant of speed,” designed speed training workouts that can take 20-25 minutes when done correctly, which would fly in the face of the 6-minute limitation you’re espousing here.  Also, weight training is a decidedly anaerobic activity, not aerobic. 
I could continue but I’ve no desire to.  Again, we’re very much in agree to disagree territory here.

Disagree if you want but that doesn't make anything I've posted inaccurate. BTW, I think you completely misunderstand what I'm saying and I've never heard Sasho mention lifting while he is Stacking. So here are some fun facts: Weight training is primarily aerobic in nature.... the opposite of the purpose The Stack is intended to do. Weight work CAN also be non-specific anaerobic in nature if done in burst modes. Fast twitch muscles possess a finite energy capacity stored within the muscle fibers themselves and even the highest trained individuals (Olympians) have merely 6 - 8 minutes IN TOTAL capacity. Once human anaerobic energy stores are consumed the body switches to aerobic muscle energy (glycogen from fat) and the fast twitch muscles are done as they no longer have an energy source. Approximately 24 hours is required to replenish anaerobic energy. (Gee, wonder why the Olympians take full days off during the games after a competition? Why MLB pitchers run out of gas? Boxers lose their punch velocity / force? Etc.) This is simple and basic human physiology. Further, as to the time length of training, a total Stack workout may require 30 minutes but the actual Stack exercises (swings) themselves require only about 1 second each. There's plenty of unused anaerobic capacity for the fast twitch muscles to consume during Stack training.... so long as one hasn't previously used up their anaerobic capacity lifting weights or in a gym beforehand! Finally, aerobic activity will not recruit switchable fast twitch type B or X fiber. That's an indisputable fact and that is exactly what The Stack System is coaching users to do. I began studying this topic in 2004 and ALL of these facts are out there in numerous scientific articles, research, journals, and books dating from the 1950's. 

 

 

Edited March 12, 2023 by RD McAvoy

[MIHIGO26]

Another session today done and more increases.

However over the last two rounds I've played and a lesson and a couple of driving range sessions I can no longer hit a golf ball. If anything it's like I am a 25 handicap. It's so bad. All that confidence and improvement I made over the winter just feels completely gone. Like I've just started playing again.

I'm not sure if the speed training has ruined it or not but I can no longer hit a golf ball. Struggling to get them in the air, or if I do it's a banana slice or a pull hook. So deflating.

[Feynman22]

I had typed a longer response, but all I'll say is getting stronger, more mobile, more powerful will only help your swing speed goals. Can't dispute that. For ideas on what to do, people should defer to the experts. I've been slacking on the gym work recently and really need to get back to it as will hit a ceiling very soon otherwise.

Up to a set of 106 with the stack today. Peak speed of 108 which would translate to 118mph with the driver which is a new PB. The cool part is it feels like there's a lot more to be unlocked as I've been slacking on the fitness and I'm still working on some technique stuff with the transition & footwork. 

Got some tournaments lined up from May onwards - cannot wait to see how far I can push it before then.

 

[Feynman22]

25 minutes ago, MIHIGO26 said:

Another session today done and more increases.

However over the last two rounds I've played and a lesson and a couple of driving range sessions I can no longer hit a golf ball. If anything it's like I am a 25 handicap. It's so bad. All that confidence and improvement I made over the winter just feels completely gone. Like I've just started playing again.

I'm not sure if the speed training has ruined it or not but I can no longer hit a golf ball. Struggling to get them in the air, or if I do it's a banana slice or a pull hook. So deflating.

I think when speed training you can sometimes lose the sequence or have a few blips. I did a month or so back. Actually lost all speed and strike temporarily (which was worrying haha). 

If you treat the stack sessions like a gym exercise and do your technique work in front of the mirror/ when at the range etc. then I'm sure it will all come together in time for the season starting. If you're trying to hit it hard at the range or on course, you might find it difficult to do any technique work at the same time. 

[MIHIGO26]

So just done a gapping session at our clubs indoor Trackman. Sent the report to my email like I usually do and it’s not showed up, checked all the relevant stuff etc but apparently it’s not been sent even though when I checked in the settings it clearly said ‘completed’. Need to take a note of the distances next time. Or maybe just book another session and take a usb stick in with me. Honestly, for a 20k plus piece of equipment it seems like it has a lot of problems for the average person using one at a sim or a range. 

However, one thing I did certainly notice from that session was my driver speeds! 

according to the last gapping session I did back in May last year my driver club head speed averaged around 90mph with a ball being hit. 

I noticed tonight this averaged out around 96mph with a ball being hit. Wow!! I know these speeds for a lot of you guys will be low but I’ve seen a 6 mph increase in driver speed which makes me so happy only 6 sessions into my first speed training program.

small caveat, I was swinging at max effort like I have been during the stack sessions, as I wanted to see what would happen with a ball. 
 

Edited March 15, 2023 by MIHIGO26

[MrKSTOKES]

10 hours ago, MIHIGO26 said:

So just done a gapping session at our clubs indoor Trackman. Sent the report to my email like I usually do and it’s not showed up, checked all the relevant stuff etc but apparently it’s not been sent even though when I checked in the settings it clearly said ‘completed’. Need to take a note of the distances next time. Or maybe just book another session and take a usb stick in with me. Honestly, for a 20k plus piece of equipment it seems like it has a lot of problems for the average person using one at a sim or a range. 

However, one thing I did certainly notice from that session was my driver speeds! 

according to the last gapping session I did back in May last year my driver club head speed averaged around 90mph with a ball being hit. 

I noticed tonight this averaged out around 96mph with a ball being hit. Wow!! I know these speeds for a lot of you guys will be low but I’ve seen a 6 mph increase in driver speed which makes me so happy only 6 sessions into my first speed training program.

small caveat, I was swinging at max effort like I have been during the stack sessions, as I wanted to see what would happen with a ball. 
 

6mph is an awesome start! Fun part of speed training is seeing positive results for the hard work you put in

[Feynman22]

20 hours ago, MIHIGO26 said:

So just done a gapping session at our clubs indoor Trackman. Sent the report to my email like I usually do and it’s not showed up, checked all the relevant stuff etc but apparently it’s not been sent even though when I checked in the settings it clearly said ‘completed’. Need to take a note of the distances next time. Or maybe just book another session and take a usb stick in with me. Honestly, for a 20k plus piece of equipment it seems like it has a lot of problems for the average person using one at a sim or a range. 

However, one thing I did certainly notice from that session was my driver speeds! 

according to the last gapping session I did back in May last year my driver club head speed averaged around 90mph with a ball being hit. 

I noticed tonight this averaged out around 96mph with a ball being hit. Wow!! I know these speeds for a lot of you guys will be low but I’ve seen a 6 mph increase in driver speed which makes me so happy only 6 sessions into my first speed training program.

small caveat, I was swinging at max effort like I have been during the stack sessions, as I wanted to see what would happen with a ball. 
 

Great result! 6mph is massive especially when you think it's worth ~15 yards extra, so a full club less into the green! And it's only going to keep going up.

Edited March 16, 2023 by Feynman22

[MIHIGO26]

I think I should point out, I stopped working out in July last year and haven't really stepped foot into a gym since. I am about to start with Fit For Golf shortly so will be back in the gym in the coming weeks. So I have no idea what my driver CHS speed would have been after May 2022. May 2022 is the last data I have. I think I can safely put the increase down to The Stack, whether that be because I've learned how to move better or the overspeed training either way it's worked so far. When I was having lessons during winter we were mostly focusing on irons and wedges so driver was never really looked at so it's probably not a technique thing.

Tested in the same simulator room indoors with TM set at 15 degrees Celsius and 360ft above sea level both times. All swings at maximum possible effort. 

May 2022 (over 10 shots with a ball):

Ball speed: 127mph
Carry: 197.1yds
Total: 219.8yds
CHS: 90.4mph

After 6 Stack sessions in 2023 (over 10 shots with a ball):

Ball speed: 137.3mph
Carry: 220.7yds
Total: 241yds
CHS:  95.9mph

Next up; continue with the Foundations program, start the Fit For Golf routines, and go max effort on the course (as the ones in the sim weren't horribly offline) and hope to see a bit of a difference.

 

Happy days.

 

[MIHIGO26]

Well, was out on the course yesterday. Safe to say the increase has not translated to the course yet.

 

I also, after somewhat stating I never get injured, appear to have a couple of niggles.  Pain in the balls of my lead foot and a pain inbetween the shoulder blades. Possibly related possibly not but will need to rest them for a couple of days before getting going again.

 

[Backofthecup]

5 hours ago, MIHIGO26 said:

Well, was out on the course yesterday. Safe to say the increase has not translated to the course yet.

 

I also, after somewhat stating I never get injured, appear to have a couple of niggles.  Pain in the balls of my lead foot and a pain inbetween the shoulder blades. Possibly related possibly not but will need to rest them for a couple of days before getting going again.

 

I know exactly what you're referring to with the muscle soreness in the upper back (btw, our swing speeds are very similar). I've struggled with this immensely, especially when you get to Max intent swings. People have said "you shouldn't have soreness from a such a short workout".  Put a Theragun on it and it will really reveal how sore it is. My advice is to make sure you are not sore when doing your sessions. If you need to wait an extra day or two between sessions I would recommend it. The soreness was definitely a deterrent to me. If the soreness is still occurring after your sessions (like me) this is your muscles saying it can't handle the load.  You might consider taking a break and working on building strength in those muscles and then resume the program. Lat pull downs are great with bands. Also, the program has it built in to know if you take a break incorporates some "return to form" session before resuming.

Edited March 19, 2023 by Backofthecup

[Jcard71]

I’m on my 10th session (51 years old) 5 handicap.

I started to see some gains in the beginning, but last few session have dropped off. Is this normal? I know at my age I’m not going to see amazing gains, but it looks like I’m worse now then when I started. Thoughts?

[MrKSTOKES]

11 minutes ago, Jcard71 said:

I’m on my 10th session (51 years old) 5 handicap.

I started to see some gains in the beginning, but last few session have dropped off. Is this normal? I know at my age I’m not going to see amazing gains, but it looks like I’m worse now then when I started. Thoughts?

Progress isn't linear so it's normal to see fluctuation, your numbers however are pretty dramatic in terms of drop off, the only time I saw something similar for myself was when the batteries started to go in my PRGR launch monitor, new batteries and the numbers returned to an expected range. 

[Jcard71]

4 hours ago, MrKSTOKES said:

Progress isn't linear so it's normal to see fluctuation, your numbers however are pretty dramatic in terms of drop off, the only time I saw something similar for myself was when the batteries started to go in my PRGR launch monitor, new batteries and the numbers returned to an expected range. 

I have the the cheap swing white and blue radar. I’m changing to the PRGR

[MrKSTOKES]

You’ll find it way easier to use, I always got huge fluctuations when I used the white one just from placement being slightly different

[Jcard71]

30 minutes ago, MrKSTOKES said:

You’ll find it way easier to use, I always got huge fluctuations when I used the white one just from placement being slightly different

Thanks, man!  So I just ordered the PRGR Portable Launch Monitor. Any tips on where I should place it for the best results?

[casey_0507]

probably much of this just not swing a club over winter. Goal is to get to 123-125. I swing full out with driver on course, so would like to swing not 100% hoping to be in better position with similar/slightly better distance. 
 

[MrKSTOKES]

15 hours ago, Jcard71 said:

Thanks, man!  So I just ordered the PRGR Portable Launch Monitor. Any tips on where I should place it for the best results?

Much easier to get placement correct, directly behind the ball, roughly 30 inches away (most putters are 35 inches so simple to work out)

[Feynman22]

On 3/20/2023 at 1:24 PM, Jcard71 said:

I’m on my 10th session (51 years old) 5 handicap.

I started to see some gains in the beginning, but last few session have dropped off. Is this normal? I know at my age I’m not going to see amazing gains, but it looks like I’m worse now then when I started. Thoughts?

I'm starting to see progress stall as well. I haven't done any gym work in a while now and it's starting to show.

Fluctuations are common so it might work itself out on its own, or might just be something simple like a sequence issue etc. But I find some extra gym work helps break through plateaus as well. 

[WaffleHouseTour]

Thinking of placement.... I use the Mevo+.   I have a string tied to the kick stand at one end, and eight feet later I have a tee tied to the other end.  The tee lays flat on the ground, but gives me a visual target.  Always have the same set up that way. 

[Jcard71]

4 hours ago, MrKSTOKES said:

Much easier to get placement correct, directly behind the ball, roughly 30 inches away (most putters are 35 inches so simple to work out)

Thanks. How does it work without a ball since I will be using the stack?

[MrKSTOKES]

There’s a setting to pick up club head or stack speed, really simple to use