Non-standard Lofts

[fixyurdivot]

8 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What typically happens is people club up then get scared that it’s too much club and end up decelerating and hit a worse shot. Similar when they think they don’t have enough club they swing harder thinking they are swing faster and again end up with an worse shot.

Curiosity questions about course management/approach to what you are thinking as you figure out what to hit into a green. Are you looking at only distance to the pin? Are you considering your rollout from a shot and whether you want to be long rather than short or vice versa. You mention some false fronts wouldn’t it be better to be long than short? Are you looking at where the pin is and considering what type of shot such as a lower trajectory or is it always same type of shot into the green with a full swing?

On your first point, I think that is exactly where I've been the last few weeks.  Not feeling like I have the right club and trying to "finesse" the shot.  Part of this is learning these courses and they are no doubt more challenging than most I've played in the last 5+ years. Soft, upsloping aprons and much firmer greens.  The other thing I'm now noticing is the sneaky and subtle elevation changes.  Billy Casper and Greg Nash did a great job at this.  I'm now wise to a handful of holes that are complete illusions.

As to course management and specifically approach shots, I've really been focusing on center distance and not pin placement... or at least I'm telling  myself that and grabbing the club I think gets me there on an 80% strike. My GIR's have plummeted the last handful of rounds and it's only been my chipping and putting keeping my index from heading north.

[RickyBobby_PR]

6 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

On your first point, I think that is exactly where I've been the last few weeks.  Not feeling like I have the right club and trying to "finesse" the shot.  Part of this is learning these courses and they are no doubt more challenging than most I've played in the last 5+ years. Soft, upsloping aprons and much firmer greens.  The other thing I'm now noticing is the sneaky and subtle elevation changes.  Billy Casper and Greg Nash did a great job at this.  I'm now wise to a handful of holes that are complete illusions.

As to course management and specifically approach shots, I've really been focusing on center distance and not pin placement... or at least I'm telling  myself that and grabbing the club I think gets me there on an 80% strike. My GIR's have plummeted the last handful of rounds and it's only been my chipping and putting keeping my index from heading north.

What has been your miss on approach shots that have caused the percentage to drop?

[Kenny B]

23 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

On your first point, I think that is exactly where I've been the last few weeks.  Not feeling like I have the right club and trying to "finesse" the shot.  Part of this is learning these courses and they are no doubt more challenging than most I've played in the last 5+ years. Soft, upsloping aprons and much firmer greens.  The other thing I'm now noticing is the sneaky and subtle elevation changes.  Billy Casper and Greg Nash did a great job at this.  I'm now wise to a handful of holes that are complete illusions.

As to course management and specifically approach shots, I've really been focusing on center distance and not pin placement... or at least I'm telling  myself that and grabbing the club I think gets me there on an 80% strike. My GIR's have plummeted the last handful of rounds and it's only been my chipping and putting keeping my index from heading north.

Have you figured out that you can't bump a short shot into the grass short of the green and have it bounce up onto the green like you can here in the PNW?  That bermuda is terrible!!

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

What has been your miss on approach shots that have caused the percentage to drop?

Majority have been short.  A good many of those are close enough to putt but still not a GIR.  

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, Kenny B said:

Have you figured out that you can't bump a short shot into the grass short of the green and have it bounce up onto the green like you can here in the PNW?  That bermuda is terrible!!

There is also that difference.  However, most of the shorts have been from the 120-160 distance and from the nice, new carpet like green stuff.  

[Clayton]

I bought a set of Mizuno 223 this summer and really like them. The plastic crap started breaking out of my Psi irons (that I got because my Rocketballz Tour were cracking and had plastic breaking out of them!) Anyway, 46* PW, solid forging going to a hollow core in the longer irons. They are 1* stronger than what was standard for the last 2-3 decades, before "loft wars" happened. The Psi had a 45.5* PW, but hit the ball exceptionally high. I have two bags depending on where I'm at and the other set is i210, 1* weak - so a "standard" 47* PW. I've never seen the ball go so high and they seem to need less loft on them.  Planning on taking care of that with Ping soon.

Anyway, long story short, I miss having my 3 irons in the bag. I played a bunch of golf in St. Andrews this past May, three times in Spain, and once in Portugal. All of these places being right on the coast, it can be very windy. One of my favorites, Troia, was a true links course as were the ones in Scotland. I have to be able to play a windy game where 5w and 7w aren't so great. Especially since I'm going back to Scotland in April!

Basically, I miss having a 3 iron in the bag, especially for tee shots in crosswinds, and am thinking to go back to more traditional lofts and gain a long iron.  I'll do this by reshafting my TM 300 Forged irons and bending some of the short irons up to a degree weak, possibly 1.5*. The PW will be 49* or 49.5* - a fantastic "modern gap wedge" and then I have the slot available for the 3 iron I am missing so much. So that'll definitely be "non standard lofts"

Would love to hear what others think of this idea.

Edited December 2, 2022 by Clayton

[cnosil]

9 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Majority have been short.  A good many of those are close enough to putt but still not a GIR.  

How short?  Bad ball contact? if I read correctly,  like you are swinging a longer club at 80% and still coming up short?   For a front pin location, why not take the longer clubs and swing at 100%., won’t that put you in the middle to middle back of the green and if you don’t hit it well, front of the green?  

[RickyBobby_PR]

10 hours ago, fixyurdivot said:

Majority have been short.  A good many of those are close enough to putt but still not a GIR.  

 

24 minutes ago, cnosil said:

How short?  Bad ball contact? if I read correctly,  like you are swinging a longer club at 80% and still coming up short?   For a front pin location, why not take the longer clubs and swing at 100%., won’t that put you in the middle to middle back of the green and if you don’t hit it well, front of the green?  

Cnosil beat me to it. Even swinging the longer club 80% is going to give you more distance and if you are short but can putt then 80% of longer club will get you on the green. If no trouble by going long like downhill putt or something that makes being behind the pin worse than the front then swing 100% will put you on the green and have a good chance at making a putt.

Curious about the thinking of only swinging 80%

Also it’s possible that the 80% is causing your height issues. You could be decelerating and adding loft at impact causing higher ball flight. But without a full speed swing and 80% swing to see what’s different it’s just a guess

[fixyurdivot]

8 minutes ago, cnosil said:

How short?  Bad ball contact? if I read correctly,  like you are swinging a longer club at 80% and still coming up short?   For a front pin location, why not take the longer clubs and swing at 100%., won’t that put you in the middle to middle back of the green and if you don’t hit it well, front of the green?  

As I mentioned, my tactic over the past couple of years has been to select middle-back distance since being short is more common for me.  I started this while in Yuma and at courses in MT and that helped.  But, these courses are different, with longer, more sloped, and softer approaches.  High decent angles do not move forward and many roll back. Also, my approach distances just seem to leave me with way more "tweener's" than I'm use too. It may very well be that my "throttled" swing isn't close to what I think I'm doing.  Anyway, it's what got me to wanting to trade a little decent angle for distance... and possibly having the ZX5's adjusted.

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

 

Cnosil beat me to it. Even swinging the longer club 80% is going to give you more distance and if you are short but can putt then 80% of longer club will get you on the green. If no trouble by going long like downhill putt or something that makes being behind the pin worse than the front then swing 100% will put you on the green and have a good chance at making a putt.

Curious about the thinking of only swinging 80%

Also it’s possible that the 80% is causing your height issues. You could be decelerating and adding loft at impact causing higher ball flight. But without a full speed swing and 80% swing to see what’s different it’s just a guess

On your last point, that may very well be what I'm doing.  I've stood there looking at the results and thinking "how the hell does that club still end up short?".  From 8i down, I'm much more comfortable with full swings. Except for punch out shots or the odd bump and run, swinging a 5i or 6i something less than 100% just feels odd.

All this said, my tactic of dropping down a club is still working but maybe with a handful more yards, even better on these tracks?

[RickyBobby_PR]

14 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

As I mentioned, my tactic over the past couple of years has been to select middle-back distance since being short is more common for me.  I started this while in Yuma and at courses in MT and that helped.  But, these courses are different, with longer, more sloped, and softer approaches.  High decent angles do not move forward and many roll back. Also, my approach distances just seem to leave me with way more "tweener's" than I'm use too. It may very well be that my "throttled" swing isn't close to what I think I'm doing.  Anyway, it's what got me to wanting to trade a little decent angle for distance... and possibly having the ZX5's adjusted.

On your last point, that may very well be what I'm doing.  I've stood there looking at the results and thinking "how the hell does that club still end up short?".  From 8i down, I'm much more comfortable with full swings. Except for punch out shots or the odd bump and run, swinging a 5i or 6i something less than 100% just feels odd.

All this said, my tactic of dropping down a club is still working but maybe with a handful more yards, even better on these tracks?

It’s pretty common for many of us to decelerate or be out of sequence when trying to take something off and same for trying to go at it. But for me if I’m taking one less club I’m not also taking speed off it either. I’m either taking my normal swing and knowing the distance is going to be what that club gives me, or I’m taking less club because I’m going to try and flight the ball down.

Courses that have more slope and undulating greens can be challenging when used to a different style course and you can’t use your normal course management strategies. 
 

Maybe for 1 round don’t club down and just swing the normal club at 80% and see how that impacts your gir percentage

[fixyurdivot]

Slightly off topic here but,  in my quest for more distance, I was poking around the interwebz and ran into this deal... wow, how does Wilson manage it?  One of the guys I played with yesterday was gaming these and just purchased them this past summer.  Among the strongest lofts and he wasn't having issues holding greens... .

 

[cnosil]

17 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

As I mentioned, my tactic over the past couple of years has been to select middle-back distance since being short is more common for me.  I started this while in Yuma and at courses in MT and that helped.  But, these courses are different, with longer, more sloped, and softer approaches.  High decent angles do not move forward and many roll back. Also, my approach distances just seem to leave me with way more "tweener's" than I'm use too. It may very well be that my "throttled" swing isn't close to what I think I'm doing.  Anyway, it's what got me to wanting to trade a little decent angle for distance... and possibly having the ZX5's adjusted.

Sounds like you aren’t hitting enough club; A tweener should still put you on the green with a full swing.  Most greens are probably 30 yards deep or roughly 2 clubs?   If you pick middle to back distance and are in between clubs, I’d probably hit the more lofted club full.   Hit it well and I am on the back of the green,  hit it poorly and I am on the front.   You also might want to try choking down on clubs and taking a full swing instead of taking a slower or partial swing.  Those slower/partial swings should be finesse and distance wedge type shots and not the full swing distances you seem to be talking about.

[RickyBobby_PR]

My favorites courses in maryland are mountain courses. Some have undulating greens and some are protected by the speed of them because the course layout isn’t as challenging as others. Being on the correct level or in the right section of the green makes a huge difference. This challenge makes golf fun.

 

[RickyBobby_PR]

58 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

As I mentioned, my tactic over the past couple of years has been to select middle-back distance since being short is more common for me.  I started this while in Yuma and at courses in MT and that helped.  But, these courses are different, with longer, more sloped, and softer approaches.  High decent angles do not move forward and many roll back. Also, my approach distances just seem to leave me with way more "tweener's" than I'm use too. It may very well be that my "throttled" swing isn't close to what I think I'm doing.  Anyway, it's what got me to wanting to trade a little decent angle for distance... and possibly having the ZX5's adjusted.

On your last point, that may very well be what I'm doing.  I've stood there looking at the results and thinking "how the hell does that club still end up short?".  From 8i down, I'm much more comfortable with full swings. Except for punch out shots or the odd bump and run, swinging a 5i or 6i something less than 100% just feels odd.

All this said, my tactic of dropping down a club is still working but maybe with a handful more yards, even better on these tracks?

If I understand what you are saying is if the middle of the green is 150 yards and that’s your 7i you club down to 8i and swing the 8i at 80%?
 

if that’s the case you are setting yourself up to be short everytime. You 80% 8i isn’t going to get to the middle ever so best case it’s the front of the green. Depending on pin location this would make it hard to score well.

 

[fixyurdivot]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

If I understand what you are saying is if the middle of the green is 150 yards and that’s your 7i you club down to 8i and swing the 8i at 80%?
 

if that’s the case you are setting yourself up to be short everytime. You 80% 8i isn’t going to get to the middle ever so best case it’s the front of the green. Depending on pin location this would make it hard to score well.

 

No, if the shot (middle green) feels like a 7i that needs to be struck pure, I'll grab the 6i.  But, as you and @cnosilhave mentioned, I'm probably now leaving doubt in my head on having the right club and perhaps, unknowingly, decelerating.

A few years back, after getting the G410's, I did quite a bit of range time with the SC200 to see what my consistency was (average and range).  I've not really done this with the ZX5's and need too.  Perhaps distance consistency with these just aren't as good thru the bag.  Remember that I also switched from the AWT's to MMT's as part of the save my shoulder quest.  That part of the mission went perfect.

[RickyBobby_PR]

21 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

No, if the shot (middle green) feels like a 7i that needs to be struck pure, I'll grab the 6i.  But, as you and @cnosilhave mentioned, I'm probably now leaving doubt in my head on having the right club and perhaps, unknowingly, decelerating.

A few years back, after getting the G410's, I did quite a bit of range time with the SC200 to see what my consistency was (average and range).  I've not really done this with the ZX5's and need too.  Perhaps distance consistency with these just aren't as good thru the bag.  Remember that I also switched from the AWT's to MMT's as part of the save my shoulder quest.  That part of the mission went perfect.

Ok. So I would guess the decelerating is probably happening from the doubt in your mind so. Basically the mindset of this might be too much club and you react by slowing things down and now you get out of sequence. This would lead to thinks like hip stall, club getting stuck behind you, secondary tilt or some other issue then you end up releasing early, adding loft and now less than optimal ball flight. But these are guesses without seeing what’s going on at that moment.

But yeah I would get some launch monitor data on your current clubs for your normal swing and then play use that for judging your distance 

[chisag]

6 hours ago, Clayton said:

Basically, I miss having a 3 iron in the bag, especially for tee shots in crosswinds, and am thinking to go back to more traditional lofts and gain a long iron.  I'll do this by reshafting my TM 300 Forged irons and bending some of the short irons up to a degree weak, possibly 1.5*. The PW will be 49* or 49.5* - a fantastic "modern gap wedge" and then I have the slot available for the 3 iron I am missing so much. So that'll definitely be "non standard lofts"

Would love to hear what others think of this idea.

 

... The truth is, every golfer is different with different tendencies, strengths and weaknesses. Having the time and ability to properly set up your bag for all of the above is always a great idea. For instance, I played a 6* gap with my wedges at 46-52-58. The yardage between my 46-52 was a little problematic for me as I seemed to have a lot of 100-105 shots. My 52* was a perfect 100 club but squeezing out some extra yards usually meant more spin and distance control problems. I started playing a 50* and I had much better success at controlling my distance.

... I planned on picking up a 54* so I would have 4* gaps with all my clubs. But I found using the 50* for 1/2 and 3/4 swings worked really well for me. Now the only shot that can be a problem is a 95-100yd shot to a front pin just over a bunker or water where coming up a hair short with a 3/4 50* could lead to a dropped shot or two. But that exact scenario doesn't come up very often and when it does, the prudent play would be hitting it 10 feet long anyway and take the trouble out of play.

... So finding what idiosyncrasies work best for your swing and game and addressing them with the correct club choice is usually a trial and error endeavor. So I like your idea of adjusting lofts and adding a 3 iron  and if it doesn't work out like you planned, you make adjustments again. Part of the fun! 

[Jim Shaw]

Hey chisag, with your "tween" shots, do you play by feel or mechanics? 

[chisag]

10 minutes ago, Jim Shaw said:

Hey chisag, with your "tween" shots, do you play by feel or mechanics? 

 

... I play by feel. Mechanical thoughts just don't work for me. 

[fixyurdivot]

This morning I tested both the Cobra ForgeTec X with KBS TDi 75R shaft and Tour Edge C722 with that same KBS and Ventus shaft. Both were longer than my baseline ZX5; the Cobra by 9+ yards and the Tour Edge by 4+ yards. A 4 degree stronger 7i loft on the Cobra (compared to the ZX5), so that stands to reason, but, it seemed I gave up nothing in ball flight and dispersion. In fact, my ball height actually increased a couple of feet with the Cobra's and spin was still good.  Maybe some of that is the KBS vs. MMT shaft?

Anyway, the Cobra results surprised me a little.  I was kind of expecting them to be low bullet balls but they were not. They definitely had a different, more muted feel and seemed a bit more forgiving. Perhaps its that 65g chuck-o-tungsten on the sole that keeps ball flight in that acceptable window?

Wheels spinning, thinking... thinking... I knew I shouldn't have gone to the Demo Day .

Oh, and least I forget, the PING guy wants me to wait and come back to test the G430's... which apparently AZ is authorized to start fittings earlier than anywhere else in the country.  He says they have more aggressive lofts which will make any decision even more challenging.

[GolfSpy_APH]

Along the lines of this, how many of you have your own loft/lie machines so you can adjust or tweak your own lofts? Or have you done this yourself and are comfortable doing so?

[Shapotomous]

On 12/1/2022 at 10:44 PM, fixyurdivot said:

There is also that difference.  However, most of the shorts have been from the 120-160 distance and from the nice, new carpet like green stuff.  

Is the ball sitting high enough on the "carpet like green stuff" that you are making contact higher on the face taking away a little distance?

[Shapotomous]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Along the lines of this, how many of you have your own loft/lie machines so you can adjust or tweak your own lofts? Or have you done this yourself and are comfortable doing so?

I have a loft lie machine and have used it mostly to tweak and then recheck loft and lie settings on my wedges.  For my iron set it was used initially to adjust lofts for gapping & occassionally to make sure lofts and the delivered lie angles havent changed (2* flat).

[fixyurdivot]

2 hours ago, Shapotomous said:

Is the ball sitting high enough on the "carpet like green stuff" that you are making contact higher on the face taking away a little distance?

No, the strike mark is typically pretty centered.  I suspect it's the deceleration from thinking I have too much club.

 

3 hours ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

Along the lines of this, how many of you have your own loft/lie machines so you can adjust or tweak your own lofts? Or have you done this yourself and are comfortable doing so?

A LL machine has been on my DIY build bench list but, at the price they are fetching and wondering how much I'll actually use it, I may never get one. A local shop charges $5/club to measure and adjust.

[GolfSpy_APH]

37 minutes ago, fixyurdivot said:

No, the strike mark is typically pretty centered.  I suspect it's the deceleration from thinking I have too much club.

 

A LL machine has been on my DIY build bench list but, at the price they are fetching and wondering how much I'll actually use it, I may never get one. A local shop charges $5/club to measure and adjust.

That's fair. There is one I can get for about 500 which isn't bad.

I have friends who would want stuff done with their clubs and i would charge a case of beer or something so in time i would break even!

[IanCC]

If you have your lofts adjusted your ‘tweener’ distances will still be there, they’ll just be slightly different to what they are now. They won’t just disappear. 
Stronger lofts won’t improve your dispersion or GIR%. In fact the opposite. No one gets more accurate the further they are from the target. 
Variation on flight from your fitting may be as simple as spin from a mat to turf. Nothing more. 
The only good reasons to adjust lofts is to gap your iron set properly if you have a combo set or to gap the next clubs on from the set I.e. wedges or hybrid/fairways/driving iron or for wedges, again a gapping thing. 

 

[chisag]

1 hour ago, GolfSpy_APH said:

That's fair. There is one I can get for about 500 which isn't bad.

I have friends who would want stuff done with their clubs and i would charge a case of beer or something so in time i would break even!

 

... It's one of those things that you think you will use probably more than you actually do. Over the years it will pay for itself monetarily but the peace of mind knowing your loft/lies are accurate is hard to put a price on. Adjusting clubs for friends that pay for a round or a meal is a nice win-win for both. I have posted many times before but it is mind boggling just how off the specs from an OEM always are with any given set. I had a new set arrive where the 8 iron was 2* strong and the 7 iron was 2* weak so the same loft for both clubs. 

[fixyurdivot]

Non-standard loft almost 2:1 thus far. Hoping to get some time soon to have my set checked.