Question about Lie Angle

[FreddyTheBearCat]

Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat. 

Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice.

Thanks in advance!

[GolfSpy SAM]

2 minutes ago, FreddyTheBearCat said:

Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat. 

Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice.

Thanks in advance!

Hey hey! 
 
 This is one of those “there’s not really an easy answer” questions - mostly because everyone delivers the club differently. 

 When I got fit at a GolfTec, I was measured at 2° flat - I’m a SMIDGE under 6’, but I round up

 Golf Tec used a VERY un-fancy device - a sticker on the club - and then the tech drew a vertical line on the ball in sharpie. When you hit the ball, the line transfers to the sticker and they can see if it’s vertical or at an angle. lol. It’s so silly, but it works. 

 For me, I consistently delivered the club 2° flat, so when I ordered my new set, that’s how I ordered them. 

 I’ve reproduced this technique since, just out of curiosity, and with these (new, bent 2° flat) irons, the line transfers vertically. 

 Ultimately, getting fit would be my recommendation. It’ll cost you anywhere from $50-150 (typically), but it’s worth it (IMO) in the long run. (For what it’s worth, some places will fit you for free if you buy a set…)

 For me, it’s worth doing every so often, in case I’m in the market for a new set of irons - then I can order them directly to my specs. 

  Good luck!!

[NM01]

1° is about 2-3 yards. Ignore height. @Golfspy_CG2is 6’7” and when he was fit at Titleist TPI the fitter put him in standard length titleist irons and thought about going 1/4” short, IIt they also left him at standard loft.

What you need to do is use a sharpie marker on the ball and see what you need. There’s also a good thread on wrx on how do this test. 

https://thesandtrap.com/blogs/entry/18-sharpie-test-easy-way-to-check-your-lie-angles/

[GaryF]

1 hour ago, Samsonite said:

Hey hey! 
 
 This is one of those “there’s not really an easy answer” questions - mostly because everyone delivers the club differently. 

 When I got fit at a GolfTec, I was measured at 2° flat - I’m a SMIDGE under 6’, but I round up

 Golf Tec used a VERY un-fancy device - a sticker on the club - and then the tech drew a vertical line on the ball in sharpie. When you hit the ball, the line transfers to the sticker and they can see if it’s vertical or at an angle. lol. It’s so silly, but it works. 

 For me, I consistently delivered the club 2° flat, so when I ordered my new set, that’s how I ordered them. 

 I’ve reproduced this technique since, just out of curiosity, and with these (new, bent 2° flat) irons, the line transfers vertically. 

 Ultimately, getting fit would be my recommendation. It’ll cost you anywhere from $50-150 (typically), but it’s worth it (IMO) in the long run. (For what it’s worth, some places will fit you for free if you buy a set…)

 For me, it’s worth doing every so often, in case I’m in the market for a new set of irons - then I can order them directly to my specs. 

  Good luck!!

Fifteen years ago, and at least 1 major swing changes ago, I was fit with ping G series and 2* upright.  I’ve always felt I’ve been fighting the clubs in recent years.  My normal iron trajectory is a slight draw but in the last few years getting more and more slight fades. 

Have been hitting Miz 923HM at pgass recently and have hit them pretty well.  I haven’t  played the last 6 weeks and tried them again over xmas and swing wasn’t quite right and everything had 150-250 R spin.  Not bad shots but not what I want.  The clubs were 2* upright.  

A different sales agent comes by and we start talking and he watches my swing, then asks what lie I’m hitting.  He then asks, what makes you thing you should be 2* upright, and I tell him my history.  He says, it’s forcing you to setup too close, and you don’t have the hip clearance to get through the swing and you’re getting stuck.  Interesting, as I’ve heard that terminology, but never knew what it means.  Still not sure I do.  He did the sticker test then switched me to 2* flat and instant improvement.

So, not sure what to think, and as I’m walking out, I run into a lady I used to work with, and haven’t seen since I retired 8 years ago.  We talked, she works there part time after she retired, told me “Jeff” is their most in demand fitter.  So, I’m clearing my mind on my next fitting.  
 

 

[cnosil]

2 hours ago, FreddyTheBearCat said:

Let me start off by saying I'm not a great golfer so I don't know how much it matters but, here goes: I had a couple of lessons and the instructor basically said that I should think about adjusting my irons 1° upright.  I think it's because my miss hits are toey? Anyway from reading online and videos etc. based on my height and wrist-to-floor (5'11 & 33") I should actually bend my irons 1° flat. 

Before I do anything, just thought I'd get some advice.

Thanks in advance!

Static measurements are a place to start;  what you have done is actually swung a club and someone observed what was actually happening at impact and what what happening with your ball flight.   There can be many reasons to adjust a clubs lie angle and it might not just be because you are hitting the club on the toe;  that could be related to the length of the club.   If you are still taking lessons,  why not ask the instructor what he is trying to correct and if that correction would be something that would be worked on during the lesson.   I say that because my miss is toe and it was caused by and issue that  was happening in my swing which is something we started trying to fix.    If you are missing right you might benefit from going more upright like your instructor has recommended

Here's an article to read about lie angle: https://practical-golf.com/lie-angle/

[NM01]

2 hours ago, GaryF said:

Fifteen years ago, and at least 1 major swing changes ago, I was fit with ping G series and 2* upright.  I’ve always felt I’ve been fighting the clubs in recent years.  My normal iron trajectory is a slight draw but in the last few years getting more and more slight fades. 

Have been hitting Miz 923HM at pgass recently and have hit them pretty well.  I haven’t  played the last 6 weeks and tried them again over xmas and swing wasn’t quite right and everything had 150-250 R spin.  Not bad shots but not what I want.  The clubs were 2* upright.  

A different sales agent comes by and we start talking and he watches my swing, then asks what lie I’m hitting.  He then asks, what makes you thing you should be 2* upright, and I tell him my history.  He says, it’s forcing you to setup too close, and you don’t have the hip clearance to get through the swing and you’re getting stuck.  Interesting, as I’ve heard that terminology, but never knew what it means.  Still not sure I do.  He did the sticker test then switched me to 2* flat and instant improvement.

So, not sure what to think, and as I’m walking out, I run into a lady I used to work with, and haven’t seen since I retired 8 years ago.  We talked, she works there part time after she retired, told me “Jeff” is their most in demand fitter.  So, I’m clearing my mind on my next fitting.  
 

 

There are no standards when it comes to lie, loft or length. Saying 2° has to be in reference to a certain lie angle. 
 

As an example Ping i230 are 62° while titleist t200 is 63°

[FreddyTheBearCat]

Cool I really appreciate all the info, I chatted with my instructor and the suggestion was made because I go right literally all the time. I'm gonna try out some of these static lie tests though. Again Cheers for the help!

[NM01]

35 minutes ago, FreddyTheBearCat said:

Cool I really appreciate all the info, I chatted with my instructor and the suggestion was made because I go right literally all the time. I'm gonna try out some of these static lie tests though. Again Cheers for the help!

A static lie test is the wrong thing to do. The only valid lie angle test is the sharpe test. 

[FreddyTheBearCat]

4 minutes ago, RickyBobby_PR said:

A static lie test is the wrong thing to do. The only valid lie angle test is the sharpe test. 

Will do! Thanks man

[David Leighton Reid]

I played standard lie for several years and always played a cut with my irons.  In Ping's online fitting, I fall into the black dot or standard category.  Through experimentation, I found that 2° upright straightened my ball flight.  As mentioned above, I believe the correct lie angle is unique to the individuals swing.  

[TR1PTIK]

What matters with lie angle is what you do at impact and while you certainly can change direction with lie angle - more upright to move the ball left, flat to move it right - I would question the instructor a bit on his advice. Reason being that changing the lie angle could impact turf interaction, strike location, etc... If your dynamic lie recommendation (fitting) is 1* upright that's one thing, but otherwise you should be addressing whatever swing/strike issue is causing the right miss. Based on the information provided, it sounds like the instructor is trying to give you a band-aid fix that likely won't remedy the actual problem.

Having said that, there's a lot of context missing for us to fully understand your needs and what the "right" path is in order to help you achieve your current goals. Don't take my thoughts as me saying your instructor is wrong in some way, but simply I would want to be more inquisitive about the recommendation and what the implications are long term. Has he done anything to actually measure lie or is he just going off of ball flight? Does he intend for this to be a quick fix while continuing to work on other factors? One degree isn't much but if it does create other issues, how should they be addressed?

Food for thought.

[AzRoger]

One thing I found out about lie angles is that there was a noticeable difference between using a lie board and the sharpie line method, and the lie angles aren't necessarily the same for each club so should check them all. My lie angles were much more upright when using the lie board, about 2 degrees.

[cnosil]

10 minutes ago, AzRoger said:

One thing I found out about lie angles is that there was a noticeable difference between using a lie board and the sharpie line method, and the lie angles aren't necessarily the same for each club so should check them all. My lie angles were much more upright when using the lie board, about 2 degrees.

Lie boards are true to their name, they lie because few know how to use them. There are many correct possibilities all based on how you swing.  

[FreddyTheBearCat]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:14 PM, TR1PTIK said:

What matters with lie angle is what you do at impact and while you certainly can change direction with lie angle - more upright to move the ball left, flat to move it right - I would question the instructor a bit on his advice. Reason being that changing the lie angle could impact turf interaction, strike location, etc... If your dynamic lie recommendation (fitting) is 1* upright that's one thing, but otherwise you should be addressing whatever swing/strike issue is causing the right miss. Based on the information provided, it sounds like the instructor is trying to give you a band-aid fix that likely won't remedy the actual problem.

Having said that, there's a lot of context missing for us to fully understand your needs and what the "right" path is in order to help you achieve your current goals. Don't take my thoughts as me saying your instructor is wrong in some way, but simply I would want to be more inquisitive about the recommendation and what the implications are long term. Has he done anything to actually measure lie or is he just going off of ball flight? Does he intend for this to be a quick fix while continuing to work on other factors? One degree isn't much but if it does create other issues, how should they be addressed?

Food for thought.

I agree I left it kind of ambiguous, I had a few lessons, some at the range and some in a sim (don’t know what monitor they used) but basically my swing was all over the place. I’m self taught so just kind of picked up clubs and started swinging. Anyway she started breaking down all my flaws into fixes for example I was coming in over the top. I wasn’t rotating, all arms etc. basically like I said just a mess. When we worked out that and my swing improved, she made the suggestion at that point about the lie angle change.

I would say overall I have worked out a lot of my swing issues, it’s by no means perfect and ideally I’d get fitted properly for some clubs that suit me better. Unfortunately, that’s not in the budget right now, so I think that was her “do what you can with what you’re working with” type of solution for my old hand me down clubs.
 

To be fair, I would say 98% of it is me and just needing to put in the work to get better. All that said, I’m not slagging her, she helped me improve tremendously. I was shooting in the 120’s before those lessons and ended the season shooting in the low 90’s pretty consistently. But, I’ll take all the help I can get honestly…as cheaply as possible lol so a lie angle change in lieu of new irons has to be it for now. 

[Franc38]

I've seen two tour players getting fit for new irons... What they do is

- NOT look at a lie board or sticker ("it's called lie board for a reason, it lies" said one fitter) but instead on GCQuad after all is done and dusted...

- start with a static (or in their case, a "my usual specs are... ")

- have them hit their stock shots 2 times with a new iron (not more, then they'd adjust, unconsciously. Us, mere mortals, don't have that problem)

- If the balls tend to draw too much: make it a bit flater and try again

- if the balls tend to fade too much for their liking: make it steeper, and try again.

They look then at centredness of strike and adjust again if needed.

Then they look on Quad: is the club presented "approximately level"... If no cycle again through the process.

 

Apprently a number of players (tour or not) prefer not having a club delivered exactly parallel to the ground as it helps them manage the curvature of their stock shots, or achieve a particular curvature more easily (or if they tend to hit a bit too much on the toe or the heel, to adjust that). So it's really not the static fit that will dictate things, nor the mark on a sticker on the bottom of the sole, not even the alignment of the face at impact but the ball flight and feels...

I mean as usual, ball flight trumps everything, right... We don't care what the club does as long as the ball goes where we want in the way we want it to do it!

[NM01]

1 hour ago, Franc38 said:

have them hit their stock shots 2 times with a new iron (not more, then they'd adjust, unconsciously. Us, mere mortals, don't have that problem)

Actually everyone does this regardless of skillset. Based on what they see in ball flight or feel in their hands from the weight or balance of the club a golfer will adjust their swing to try and achieve a certain result. Even more so if the fitter is giving them numbers for launch and spin after each shot. It’s why fitters have the golfer take no more than 3-5 swings. 
 

The difference between the pros and ams is how quick they can recognize something isn’t right and adjust. Along with the consistency from shot to shot

[caryncgolfer]

It’s prob that the pro saw your swing pattern and your contact.  His pro eyes and intuition told him your sweet spot strike was off a bit and would be corrected with a bit of a bend on the old Mitchell machine.

that’s my guess!   nothing ventured, nothing gained 

[GregGarner]

On 1/12/2023 at 7:30 AM, RickyBobby_PR said:

Actually everyone does this regardless of skillset. Based on what they see in ball flight or feel in their hands from the weight or balance of the club a golfer will adjust their swing to try and achieve a certain result. Even more so if the fitter is giving them numbers for launch and spin after each shot. It’s why fitters have the golfer take no more than 3-5 swings. 
 

The difference between the pros and ams is how quick they can recognize something isn’t right and adjust. Along with the consistency from shot to shot

Seconded. And even better, you can try it for yourself. If you go with extremes (esp with drivers), it makes it easier to see it in action. For example, hit two shots with a Ping SFT lofted up and/or in an upright setting and then two shots with an LST lofted down and/or in a flat setting. You will probably have a visceral reaction to how different the two are. Then the fun part: pick one and hit it for ~a dozen swings or so. THEN try to switch... You may not actually be able to hit the ball.

The body is subconsciously tracking where it expects the center of gravity to be and if/when it's in the "wrong" place, it'll start making small adjustments.

[GolfSpy SAM]

Fun update: previously at GolfTec (using lie board and sharpie), was fitted to 2° flat. At recent fitting using GC Quad, I deliver club 2° toe down, lol. Fitter suggesting quite plainly that I need to be in something at least 1° upright (depending on OEM stock lie angle). My miss is most definitely right, so... Curious if upright 1° would help with that. 

Ultimately, I'm not ordering new irons just yet, but I thought it was an interesting update to share. 

[NM01]

10 hours ago, GolfSpy_SAM said:

Fun update: previously at GolfTec (using lie board and sharpie), was fitted to 2° flat. At recent fitting using GC Quad, I deliver club 2° toe down, lol. Fitter suggesting quite plainly that I need to be in something at least 1° upright (depending on OEM stock lie angle). My miss is most definitely right, so... Curious if upright 1° would help with that. 

Ultimately, I'm not ordering new irons just yet, but I thought it was an interesting update to share. 

That 1° is about 2-3 yards. Will it change anything? Only making the change and seeing what happens will tell. 
 

Do the sharpie test and see if it matches what gc quad says. 
 

Find a shop and have them adjust that iron and then re test

[Andrew75]

On 1/2/2023 at 3:46 PM, GolfSpy_SAM said:

Hey hey! 
 
 This is one of those “there’s not really an easy answer” questions - mostly because everyone delivers the club differently. 

 When I got fit at a GolfTec, I was measured at 2° flat - I’m a SMIDGE under 6’, but I round up

 Golf Tec used a VERY un-fancy device - a sticker on the club - and then the tech drew a vertical line on the ball in sharpie. When you hit the ball, the line transfers to the sticker and they can see if it’s vertical or at an angle. lol. It’s so silly, but it works. 

 For me, I consistently delivered the club 2° flat, so when I ordered my new set, that’s how I ordered them. 

 I’ve reproduced this technique since, just out of curiosity, and with these (new, bent 2° flat) irons, the line transfers vertically. 

 Ultimately, getting fit would be my recommendation. It’ll cost you anywhere from $50-150 (typically), but it’s worth it (IMO) in the long run. (For what it’s worth, some places will fit you for free if you buy a set…)

 For me, it’s worth doing every so often, in case I’m in the market for a new set of irons - then I can order them directly to my specs. 

  Good luck!!

If, from a flat lie, your solidly struck iron shots start with a pull and tend to hook even slightly after that, you're irons are too upright. If they start with a push and tend to fade, even slightly, you're too flat. Even slightly (even without a divot 5 or 6 feet out of your intended 15-25 yard out window for initial direction and more than 10 feet either side of the pin for landing area for both with any iron-woods are more difficult to asses and slightly different and you might get by with an ill fitted wood) and so you must make diligent assessments over several rounds.  Individual irons in the set can be out of kilter, too. If the ball is constantly finishing at the pin, your lie is correct. It's very difficult to adjust your swing to the lie and vice versa.